Where's Our Civil Rights Going?! Options

[kahall]

Wow, great discussion going on here. I am impressed with the back and forth while still maintaining respect for one another. That is so rare on the net nowadays. A pat on the back to everyone. Rock on!

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[FrankW]

The conflict in the middle east seems to have no solution at all... Here in Europe, anyway in Sweden, you can see a lot of media taking the palestinian side.... Maybe because Israel is the stronger part, it's more appealing to cheer for the weaker side.
For me, I'm not certain about anything in the middle east, but I find something rather strange:
Fact 1. EU and Sweden have recognized Israel as an independent nation.
Fact 2. EU and Sweden have officially proclaimed Hamas to be a terrorist organization
Fact 3. Hamas sanction rocket launches from their territory in Gaza

So why can't Israel retaliate and protect their people, without being bashed in the media?
I understand Israel is seen as a occupant of some areas down there, but weren't they attacked in -67 by several nations which led to Israels victory in that war, thus occupating the said areas?
And think about it, almost all of Israels neighbor want to see Israel annihilated. With Iran leaders actually saying this officially... I understand them, they actually fight for their existence here.

Maybe it aint so black and white, I can realize that, but I feel media here are very biased, if you look at the things I wrote above...

You are most certainly correct about the bias of the European media. The BBC is biased so far to the left it's ridiculous. It used to be that the printed word here in the States could be counted on as factual. Now, major newspapers like the New York Times are constantly leaning far left, and putting a spin on stories that serve no other purpose than to push the liberal agenda.
There used to be a code of journalistic ethics, but no more. This makes my point about having enough common sense to read between the lines. The internet is notorious for printing lies about...everything. Sure, you can find good information if you look hard enough; it must be cited. But too many sheep are pulled in by the ridiculous inaccuracies of media bloggers and far left loons.
The Swedish media are taking the Palestinian side because Israel is a friend of the U.S. There is no other logical explanation for it. They are privy to the same factual information as other world media outlets, yet they choose to lie to their readership. It's really a shame, because everything you stated about Israel is correct. Yet, you see people demonstrating against Israel for defending themselves against Iran sponsored terrorists. Is the world full of morons or what?

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[Zephyr]

Albuquerque? Or maybe Minnesota. Possibly Atlantis.

Really, though, while I like having my privacy, I think a lot of the hype around this is just that. Many, many places have things much worse than the majority of us do. I think when people don't have enough to worry about, they like to find whatever problems they can, you know? I mean, it seems like no one's ever happy with what they have. I don't really feel like getting into this right now, things like this can get messy , but just though I'd throw that out there.

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[mjsteps]

No I do not think a trial is a bad thing. And I had stated sometime ago Obama would close gitmo and low and behold it was pointed out yesterday. The problem is more logistic. Where do you hold these would be suspects? What state should they be tried in? What about military tribunals? Who appoints or what attorneys?
It is clear that this is only a way for Obama to try and gain some approval with would be "terrorist states" or gaining some type of "world" approval.
The crux is around the corner. We shall see where he stands as Israel will not be leaving Gaza anytime soon and Hamas does not appear to be giving in just yet. Why because they both want to see where he will stand? While Iran claims to be 6 months away from having Nuke abilites and yes they will want to see where they stand with the new administration.
Now imagine how the "new administration" will handle, view the current intelligence? THey are the same ones who after having the same intellligence as Bush agreeded to take action in Iraq. But this time the threat is greater but because of the past i.e faulty intelligence they will "sit" on there hands not knowing how or what to do.
Think about the implications not just in the states but around the globe?

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[ztevie]

The Swedish media are taking the Palestinian side because Israel is a friend of the U.S. There is no other logical explanation for it.

Now I think you have conspiracy theories here...
Swedish media is not controlled by some higher power who decide what they should write to fool people to have a certain view about things...
Of course there are influential people writing pro-palestinian stuff, but I have seen the opposite also, chronicles which cleraly defend Israels right to defend themselves.
But, in normal articles, fat headlines screaming out "military superiority vs civil poor people dying" is more dramatic and will sell more.
In Sweden there seems to be a common theme, that the weaker side is someone to feel sorry for, no matter what they have done.
OK, there are strong anti-USA feelings in Europe. My very unprofessional guess it has to do with the fact US go their own way in most things. USA have been veto against environment deals, do not pay their debts to UN and so on... You can hear people say it's wrong that USA take on the act of world police.
There were strong feelings when US entered Vietnam, there are strong feelings now because of the Iraq war, and if the purpose of this war is really oil and not terrorism. Europe and Sweden take a huge load of the consequences of that war...
For example, one small town in south Sweden(70.000 inhabitants) accepted more refugees 2007 than USA and Canada together, and it was just this town! Actually, the mayor of this town went to US and had a speech in the white house about this... A common feeling is that USA should themselves carry the burden of a war they started.

My personal opinion is that everything is not so simple. You can not say one side is 100% right and one side is 100% wrong, it's more complex than that. We can sit here in relative safety in Sweden and be horrified by war in other countries, and blame the stronger side for using excessive violence where civilians are effected. But if we were plagued by terrorism or a neighbour country shooting some random missiles into our cities we would also scream for instant retaliation, no matter what.
I don't think the US system is very good, I much more prefer the system we have, where we pay higher tax, but where health care is free, the criminality is fairly low, and we don't risk to be homeless because we loose our jobs. Our strong unions see to that we have fair pay for the job we do, and we don't have to work several jobs with minimum wages to have food every day. We can not very easy get rich, we can not live the american dream where we start a company and make millions... Not so easy anyway...
Still, we have much more in common with the US regarding everything else. And sometimes I wonder where we would be if USA didn't play the role of world police? Maybe we would speak german or russian now, or maybe we would speak something else, but in the end I believe we have our lifestyle now very much because USA have been so strong both regarding military and finance the last century.
Everything have an end though, superpowers in the world have risen and fallen without exception. And maybe this finance crisis is the beginning of the end of the western dominance. Who is the next one? China? Russia? The Arab world?
I just know I want to have freedom to choose which God to believe in (if any), I want to make my own choices in life. Extreme islamic way does not go hand in hand with that, so I can not sit here and hope Hamas and Iran and others succeed in annihilating Israel, cause that would be the first step towards just that...

Peace and out! THis got very long and very OT, sorry!

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This post has been edited by ztevie: Jan 13 2009, 03:38 PM

[OrganisedConfusi...]

Americans are doing a great job of destroying the world. And yes 9/11 probably was an inside job and there is a lot of people that are high up in professions like scientists who try to prove it was impossible to happen how the US Government said it happened. Of course no American citizen wants to admit it but everybody outside of the US has there own opinions and don't believe everything they are told.

Unfortunately the world is ran by powerful governments who try to convince people that they have the choice and a vote but really that isn't the case and you have no choice.

But politics is a sensitive area on GMC so I wouldn't talk about this too much.

You are most certainly correct about the bias of the European media. The BBC is biased so far to the left it's ridiculous. It used to be that the printed word here in the States could be counted on as factual. Now, major newspapers like the New York Times are constantly leaning far left, and putting a spin on stories that serve no other purpose than to push the liberal agenda.
There used to be a code of journalistic ethics, but no more. This makes my point about having enough common sense to read between the lines. The internet is notorious for printing lies about...everything. Sure, you can find good information if you look hard enough; it must be cited. But too many sheep are pulled in by the ridiculous inaccuracies of media bloggers and far left loons.
The Swedish media are taking the Palestinian side because Israel is a friend of the U.S. There is no other logical explanation for it. They are privy to the same factual information as other world media outlets, yet they choose to lie to their readership. It's really a shame, because everything you stated about Israel is correct. Yet, you see people demonstrating against Israel for defending themselves against Iran sponsored terrorists. Is the world full of morons or what?

The BBC is a joke.

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This post has been edited by OrganisedConfusion: Jan 13 2009, 03:25 PM

[utak3r]

I'm not for either side of Israeli-Palestinian war...
But I know it wouldn't happen if other countries wouldn't take Palestinians ground and gave it to Israel. How would YOU react?

I know Hamas is a piece of work, but Israel has same people... both od countries have good and bad people - and telling Israel is allright and Palestinians not - is really a crap.

I know what I'm talking about - my country was under annexation for quite a long time, and we were fighting for hundreds of years to have our country back. We succeeded, fortunately.


Edited for language /Micke

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This post has been edited by MickeM: Jan 13 2009, 03:37 PM

[Saoirse O'Shea]

...
But politics is a sensitive area on GMC so I wouldn't talk about this too much.


...

I think it is less that politics is a 'sensitive area on GMC' and more that some topics often result in flame wars OC. Discuss by all means everyone just don't turn the thread into a flame war .


BTW - first time I met my wife's parents my wife told me before hand, 'Whatever you do don't talk about politics, religion, Ireland, the Royal Family.' I didn't but not long after we had arrived I walked in on her and her father arguing about politics. Go figure .

Cheers,
Tony

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[Fran]

This thread is becoming quite serious, but most of what's been talked about here (specially the initial part of the thread) is somewhat related to Will Smith's "Enemy of the state" movie, probably full of lies, but really fun to watch.

The truth is out there...

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[utak3r]

somewhat related to Will Smith's "Enemy of the state" movie, probably full of lies, but really fun to watch.

that's true... nice movie, pulling some strings...

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[enforcer]

Well, I agree with the stand of USA counter terrorists. But as always politics being what they are, is an art of deception... I dont agree that USA killed its own citizens to rage war, take away some civil rights and insure its profits etc. But politicians USE this kind of events, to do more. I %100 agree the Afganistan war, but I disagree with invasion of Iraq, and the fact that this invasion is related to Al-Quedah and so called existance of MDWs is not true, as Iraq was the greatest enemy of terrorist organisations like Al-Quedah because extremist terrorists like them had a view of Iraq as Communist Infidels So USA used his stand against terrorism and americans support to eradicate an enemy of US interest in the area, and thus they had a perfect base to launch an attack to Iran which was the real threat and access to the oil in the area.

About Israel-Palestinian way, you see I am a muslim, so you may think I may be a little biased, but I am not, I care for the right of Israel's right to exist as a whole country and I stand for their right to fight terrorism. I also support them with all the wars they were into like 48-67 conflicts, because palestinians were fighting each other until then, and they had to pay the price of their lack of care and vision. Now, they exist and we recognize them and we support their war against terrorism. But you do not wage a war against a Terrorist with carpet/cluster bombs etc. You inflitrate them, divide them cut their support and you destroy them from the inside. If you start to bomb civilian cities and kill thousand of innocent people while you try to eradicate terrorism, you wake a hatred on International Media, you loose allies and you make the famillies of the fallen, and lots of clueless around the world join the ranks of terrorists. And also you even divide your own country... So that is not a good option. Israel is making a strategical mistake, leave alone the humanitarian results of that act.

On sites like Facebook, you'll see bunch of groups honoring one of the greatest psyco in the world: A. Hittler, with his twisted words like"One day the world will curse me for I couldn't kill all the Jews", and that is not the work of EU States or media, that is the result of hatred caused by this act. If you see killed hundreds of people, dying and torn apart children on tv, you too will start to oppose Israel, because you are people too, and you have children... I really think Israel is being really careless. They dont even show the care that US showed on Iraq apart that jail torture issues. And being careless about that matter has results as we see today..

Can

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[tommyboy]

A man (or nation) who gives up freedom for security will lose both.

That's my only thought on this subject.

I agree 100%. Many American's have died for our freedom we enjoy today. To give them away (Patriot Act, etc.) because of fear only means terrorism is working.

They take away your civil rights and give you imaginary protection against a (partially) imaginary threat.
And it's actually very sad to see this. Because it's quite clear where we'll end up when we'll follow that path.
Orwells 1984 is a great book on the topic (and generally a great book) I think.

Protection against terrorists is needed, sure. But do something effective, like bringing education to "terrorist countries" instead of taking away privacy and other civil rights that are required for a working democracy.

One more thing to think about, how many people have been killed by terrorists in the last 100 years, and how many have been killed by governments going nuts?

- Jonas

PS: I hope this post does not offend anybody, it's only meant to express my opinion and I'm not aware of all the nuances of the English language (yet).

I couldn't agree with you more.

tommyboy

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[Duncan]

A man (or nation) who gives up freedom for security will lose both.

That's my only thought on this subject.

Are you sure that isn't Benjamin Franklin's thought?

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[Niko Fran]

About trials for the prisoners of Guantanamo, I belieave that these people should be put on trial as fast as possible. A boy from Canada who was living in Afghanistan has been sitting on Guantanamo for six years since he was 15 years, as the american troopers "had a hunch" that he had planted road side bombs and had thrown a grenade that killed a trooper. There are terrible crimes, but he was just a kid, following his older brother who was a presumed terrorist. I think this boy is not a follower of Al-Queda, but a victim of Al-Queda. Can you imagine yourself sitting in one of the worst prisons on earth for six years as a 15 year old boy, for something you might not have done, and not been trialed for? If Obama was not to close Guantanamo, this boy, now a 21 year old man would rot away for what the old administration cared...

On the subjext of the Israelli-Palestinian war, I dont think we got much to say about it, if we havent faced the very problems ourselfs... One of my best friends grew up in Israel, and his uncle and his fathers best friend were killed by suicide bombers. This is a very emotional war, and all the people in the west can sit and discuss and comment on the war, but they still dont got a clue what it is about. Its not a war of common sense. Its revenge and the feeling of having lost someone that you hold dear. You can imagine, but not know how it is to have lost on that you love. This feeling can make you do the craziest things really, even forget your common sense.
Of course I understand the people of Palastina too. Their land was taken away by some organisation called "UN" and given to a people who had not lived there for thousands of years. This new people countinued to expand beyond the borders given by UN, so of course they felt threatend, that this new nation would infact one day be in control of their land?
I belieave many Americans, Swedes or where ever your from would be very "offended" if millions of people were shipped to area that you live, took your land, put big fances around your small cities where they expect milions to live (Gaza being the most overpupluated place on earth) and made it impossible for your to leave, so you would have to spend your life there, never being able to leave if they not wished to...

Both sides have commited horrible crimes, and I doubt that it will ever stop, but I really hope it, for the sake of the people of the world...

And about the media, if BBC is a left media, what is Fox News then...

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[Fsgdjv]

text

This is probably the best post I have ever read on GMC.

Doing what Israel is doing right now in Gaza is definetly not the way to get rid of terrorism. It's kind of like if the swedish government would find out that there are 3 murderers in a big house, and they blow the whole house up. I know that was a huge exaggeration, but hurting as many civilians as Israel are doing in Gaza is not the right way to handle this. Otherwise, I think I support Israel more than Palestina after electing HAMAS as their government or whatever it's called since it's not officially a state. (edit: that came out a bit wrong, I can'ty say I support any side more than the other, I just don't like HAMAS) Allthough I think as in most wars both parts are terribly wrong. It's easy to think that they should just stop fighting if you're in a country far away and just seeing some things in the news, but I suppose it's completely different if you're actually there. Enforcer's post was however pretty much spot on what I think.

I don't really think calling all the media in europe left wing is very fair, what if even left wing? I'm USA liberals are considered left wing, but here in Sweden liberals are on the right side of things, even though they are the ones in power right now. And no, do not say Sweden is a communist country, or even left wing, because it isn't. I'm just stating left wing in USA and left wing in (for example) Sweden are some hugely different things.

And I don't like all out civil rights being taken away, I actually like some privacy. I know it's for everyones good, "if you have nothing to hide, why wouldn't you want it?", etc. But quite frankly, I don't like the idea that if somebody in power some day has the wrong intents, he or she will be able to control people easier etc. I think it's pretty good without all this surveilance, and if it aint broken, don't fix it. (no it's not broken, even if you think it is)

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This post has been edited by Fsgdjv: Jan 13 2009, 11:25 PM

[mjsteps]

It is simple. Hezbollah and Hamas are considered to be terroists as defined by the U.N itself plain and simple. How hard is that to grasp? What I see is a anti-semtic view which is a result of a couple of issues.
First it is clear that the Koran spells out what "Jews are" in the eyes of Allah. (Dogs)
Secondly amazingly that Nazi germany under Hiltler held to the same view. Yes there really is no difference, one kills in the name of God, the other in the name of the state.
Now with that said, which If I offend anyone please understand I am not trying to do so but clearly stating facts. ( I have read the Koran front to back and back to front ,aware of Hitlers world view and what he attempted to accomplish.
But the anti-semitism also comes from those who believe it was the Jews who killed the messiah i.e the Christ.

So of course we are going to see a "favortism" toward palestine as it is driven by (for lack of a better term) racism as a result of what is held either in relgious views or historical facts. So if most of the world is going to be sympathetic toward a "recognized terrorist group" then it should be prepared to suffer the consquences for doing or just come out and embrace there same views.

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[Ajmurrell]

People seem to keep missing the point.

The fact that hezbollah and hamas surround themselves with civilians does not give the Israeli government the right to kill at will.

If the british had responded in the same way towards the IRA, the peace process would have been impossible for decades.

Of course us "libies", as some of you Americans would say, don't feel sympathetic towards terrorist activities or groups.

I'm not saying that what you're saying is wrong, I believe you're right in what you're saying. It's just the way in which Israel are going about defending themselves that I don't agree with. I'm aware I probably wouldn't be able to come up with a solution myself, but then I haven't accepted the responsibility of being in control of a country.

It is simple. Hezbollah and Hamas are considered to be terroists as defined by the U.N itself plain and simple. How hard is that to grasp? What I see is a anti-semtic view which is a result of a couple of issues.
First it is clear that the Koran spells out what "Jews are" in the eyes of Allah. (Dogs)
Secondly amazingly that Nazi germany under Hiltler held to the same view. Yes there really is no difference, one kills in the name of God, the other in the name of the state.
Now with that said, which If I offend anyone please understand I am not trying to do so but clearly stating facts. ( I have read the Koran front to back and back to front ,aware of Hitlers world view and what he attempted to accomplish.
But the anti-semitism also comes from those who believe it was the Jews who killed the messiah i.e the Christ.

So of course we are going to see a "favortism" toward palestine as it is driven by (for lack of a better term) racism as a result of what is held either in relgious views or historical facts. So if most of the world is going to be sympathetic toward a "recognized terrorist group" then it should be prepared to suffer the consquences for doing or just come out and embrace there same views.

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This post has been edited by Ajmurrell: Jan 14 2009, 12:29 AM

[enforcer]

It is simple. Hezbollah and Hamas are considered to be terroists as defined by the U.N itself plain and simple. How hard is that to grasp? What I see is a anti-semtic view which is a result of a couple of issues.
First it is clear that the Koran spells out what "Jews are" in the eyes of Allah. (Dogs)
Secondly amazingly that Nazi germany under Hiltler held to the same view. Yes there really is no difference, one kills in the name of God, the other in the name of the state.
Now with that said, which If I offend anyone please understand I am not trying to do so but clearly stating facts. ( I have read the Koran front to back and back to front ,aware of Hitlers world view and what he attempted to accomplish.
But the anti-semitism also comes from those who believe it was the Jews who killed the messiah i.e the Christ.

So of course we are going to see a "favortism" toward palestine as it is driven by (for lack of a better term) racism as a result of what is held either in relgious views or historical facts. So if most of the world is going to be sympathetic toward a "recognized terrorist group" then it should be prepared to suffer the consquences for doing or just come out and embrace there same views.

Man, I am sorry to add that, I have red Koran from the first page to last three times as a book, and there isn't any statement calling Jews "Dogs". As all the holy books it is written in a very obscure type of arabian language, and need some interpretation, where somebody interprets it with a bad motivation, he can turn it to anything. I also red the Old Testament, and there was an interpretation there as follows:

"You can kill, steal from, and take all he who is not a jew, for they are not people in the eyes of the one, and you shall slaugter them like animals"

So that doesnt mean the Old Testament is a book of violence and all those who believe in it will murder muslims christians etc. That means some extremist interpreted it that way to produce hatred vs all those who believe other the way.

I dont think world getting sympathetic with HAMAS, but only with palestinian people. And if you say that HAMAS is actually the palestinian people because they elected them as a government, I must say you are making a great mistake.

Other than that I agree what you say but the point where I disagree is the way Israel is fighting this demon. You cant shoot a fly with a bazooka, this way you will destroy your house. Without that very elegance, Israel is making a great strategic mistake. Thats all.



Cheers

Can

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[Ajmurrell]

Man, I am sorry to add that, I have red Koran from the first page to last three times as a book, and there isn't any statement calling Jews "Dogs". As all the holy books it is written in a very obscure type of arabian language, and need some interpretation, where somebody interprets it with a bad motivation, he can turn it to anything. I also red the Old Testament, and there was an interpretation there as follows:

"You can kill, steal from, and take all he who is not a jew, for they are not people in the eyes of the one, and you shall slaugter them like animals"

So that doesnt mean the Old Testament is a book of violence and all those who believe in it will murder muslims christians etc. That means some extremist interpreted it that way to produce hatred vs all those who believe other the way.

I dont think world getting sympathetic with HAMAS, but only with palestinian people. And if you say that HAMAS is actually the palestinian people because they elected them as a government, I must say you are making a great mistake.

Other than that I agree what you say but the point where I disagree is the way Israel is fighting this demon. You cant shoot a fly with a bazooka, this way you will destroy your house. Without that very elegance, Israel is making a great strategic mistake. Thats all.



Cheers

Can

100% agree.

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[utak3r]

Other than that I agree what you say but the point where I disagree is the way Israel is fighting this demon. You cant shoot a fly with a bazooka, this way you will destroy your house. Without that very elegance, Israel is making a great strategic mistake. Thats all.

True.
Doing it this way they never achieve any kind of agreement. Yeah - Britain is kinda a good example, 'cause there're similar grounds - nation and religion....

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