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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ To All Instructors
Posted by: Evil_Invader May 20 2009, 08:34 PM
Hey!
I thought it would be interesting if instructors shared exercises they think are hard. Stuff they practice on their own or practiced for a long time before playing right. Also would be great if they discussed there weak points.
Let's not go into too much theory stuff here (let's make it understandable for everyone), only specific little exercises, for examples fingerings that are really hard even for our virtuosos.
Reference to lessons (or part of lessons) are of course great.
Sorry for the bad english but you understand the point! 
Gab
Posted by: Emir Hot May 20 2009, 09:33 PM
I'll send some stuff soon. There were a couple of easy looking things but in fact they were vey hard I need to find it.
Posted by: Evil_Invader May 20 2009, 09:36 PM
I need to find it.Thanks a lot Emir!
Can't wait to try these! Indeed, sometimes stuff look easy but turns out to be really hard.
Posted by: AlexLion May 20 2009, 09:37 PM
I like the idea Usually, hard stuff practice boost your playing skills pretty good.
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic May 20 2009, 09:38 PM
This is a nice idea! I'll look up my notebook, there are some interesting stuff in there, and post a GP or something tomorrow
Posted by: Fran May 20 2009, 09:51 PM
Nice idea, though if this will be stuff that's hard for them I can't imagine how hard it will be for us mortals 
Posted by: Jose Mena May 20 2009, 09:57 PM
One of the hardest things I practice often is playing patterns that are commonly use in a specific note time duration, and play it in a different time duration.
As a very simple example:
This is normally played in triplets 16th triplets
-----------10-12-13----------10-12-13-----------
--10-12-13----------10-12-13--------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
I have highlighted the accent of each group of 6 notes.
Now play the exact same pattern in 16th notes
-------------10-12-13-----------10-12-13-----------
--10-12-13------------10-12-13-------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
This is a very simple concept, but with certain licks or riffs it is hard to apply, however when you are able to do so, I often find a new lick, actually not new but with a totally different feel just because of the timing. This allows me to experiment with phrasing a lot.
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 20 2009, 10:02 PM
Spot on for groupings Jose, rhythm is crucial.
Posted by: Emir Hot May 20 2009, 10:13 PM
As a very simple example:
This is normally played in triplets 16th triplets
-----------10-12-13----------10-12-13-----------
--10-12-13----------10-12-13--------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
I have highlighted the accent of each group of 6 notes.
Now play the exact same pattern in 16th notes
-------------10-12-13-----------10-12-13-----------
--10-12-13------------10-12-13-------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
This is a very simple concept, but with certain licks or riffs it is hard to apply, however when you are able to do so, I often find a new lick, actually not new but with a totally different feel just because of the timing. This allows me to experiment with phrasing a lot.
This is sometimes very tricky
Rhytmical placement of different note groups should always be practiced in any combination. You made this one in 16th notes. There could also be a group of 5 or 7 and you always end up on an odd note (last one in the bar). These exercises are extremely useful.
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 20 2009, 10:25 PM
Rhytmical placement of different note groups should always be practiced in any combination. You made this one in 16th notes. There could also be a group of 5 or 7 and you always end up on an odd note (last one in the bar). These exercises are extremely useful.I'm finishing a lesson on the same topic, not 5 or 7 but 9 notes, all 16th.
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic May 20 2009, 10:30 PM
I never had problems with 16th notes, I got great feel for them cause years ago all I did is practice them. The downside was that I didn't got the good feel for triplets, but this has changed now. For these patters using triplets is a breeze, as for any other (probably not on higher tempos but that is different matter )
Posted by: Oxac May 20 2009, 10:35 PM
I agree. Playing groupes of notes with a different timing than number of notes is very interesting. Like a lick with 5 notes in 16ths, four notes in triplets 6 notes in 5-tuplets or quarters even. It's hard though, especially if you try to do it both starting with an up stroke and a downstroke.
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 20 2009, 10:36 PM
Sometimes it's even harder when you play it fully legato,
you don't have a chance to accent first one with the pick.
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic May 20 2009, 10:36 PM
This is definitely true. That's why it's useful to rehearse everything with as much different note values as possible
Posted by: Emir Hot May 20 2009, 10:37 PM
you don't have a chance to accent first one with the pick.
Oh that could be a nightmare sometimes
Posted by: Oxac May 20 2009, 10:38 PM
I think that it's good both technique wise (because you really learn how to control the accentuation) but also timing wise. Imagine the following example.
You have a lick with 7 notes, played as 6 tuplets to a metronome that goes tic tic on the second and fourth beat. This is very difficult at ANY speed.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 20 2009, 11:01 PM
I am liking this thread already.
I dig rhythmic displacement a lot and its definitely not an easy thing to grasp really well.
Posted by: Evil_Invader May 20 2009, 11:43 PM
That's killer guys! I'm having fun already!
Keep em coming!!!
Posted by: playaxeman May 20 2009, 11:47 PM
Good idea
Posted by: Emir Hot May 20 2009, 11:59 PM
Try this in 160bpm That's how the lick should be played
The point is to play every pull off perfectly but real and strong pull off like classical players, not just removing your finger from a string. I get tired until I reach the 5th string and still can't make it properly even in 140bpm.
Posted by: lcsdds May 21 2009, 12:10 AM
Rhythmic displacement is one of the coolest concepts I've ever learned. You can get TONS of mileage out of your "patterns" this way. That pattern that Jose played can be phrased a MILLION different ways and sound totally different based on the groupings.
Awesome thread.
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 06:56 AM
That's how the lick should be playedThe point is to play every pull off perfectly but real and strong pull off like classical players, not just removing your finger from a string. I get tired until I reach the 5th string and still can't make it properly even in 140bpm.
Coool
I will try this again and again! And hard pull-ofs is always a problem at speed :|Omg, that exercise is killing ;O What fingering do you use? And who can play this on 160?
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 08:42 AM
I will try this again and again! And hard pull-ofs is always a problem at speed :|Omg, that exercise is killing ;O What fingering do you use? And who can play this on 160?
My teacher was a master of those weird exercises. He could repeat it 20 times with no problem
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 21 2009, 08:44 AM
Was it Baxter or?
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 08:46 AM
This is a very simple concept, but with certain licks or riffs it is hard to apply, however when you are able to do so, I often find a new lick, actually not new but with a totally different feel just because of the timing. This allows me to experiment with phrasing a lot.
Really cool how exact same notes can sound completely different! Very useful thing, I`ll try to use on other patterns as well!
It must be Yngwie himself... Is Your teacher famous?!
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 08:47 AM
John Wheatcroft, left handed guy. Baxter could also do it
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 21 2009, 08:49 AM
Ah ok, thanks.
Btw, I still can't find a single Baxter's video on Youtube??
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 08:54 AM
Cool, he is on Myspace! I`m listening to his track right now! By the way he is not so popular as You
That happens I think, that teachers are not known at all, but their students become world famous
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 08:56 AM
Btw, I still can't find a single Baxter's video on Youtube??
That guy hates to be exposed. I don't think you will find any. Maybe we'll be lucky and see him when you come to London. The only thing you can hear is in Guitar Techniques but that's not as good as if you watch him playing live.
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 21 2009, 08:58 AM
It's not even about being exposed at all, guy is a GHOST!!!
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 09:00 AM
That happens I think, that teachers are not known at all, but their students become world famous There was a topic about that. I explained why I wouldn't like to be a full time teacher. None of them have a good career because that job is 24/7. When some famous guy comes to do a clinic at school, he usually looks at the floor in front of those teachers
Sad but trueTrue
Posted by: Piotr Kaczor May 21 2009, 10:04 AM
Baxter is a one of the greatest guitarist I've ever heard, but fact, he is a ghost.
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 10:41 AM
Come on, give us more fingerbreaking stuff!
Posted by: Jesse May 21 2009, 11:08 AM
Fingerbreaking? Do you want to end up like this? 
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 11:27 AM
Nothing unusual
Posted by: Jose Mena May 21 2009, 01:11 PM
That's how the lick should be playedThe point is to play every pull off perfectly but real and strong pull off like classical players, not just removing your finger from a string. I get tired until I reach the 5th string and still can't make it properly even in 140bpm.
I'd like to see what you mean, to tell you the truth this looks like nothing compared to your lessons
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 01:44 PM
Sometimes I come across some stuff that much less experienced people can play with no problem and I find my self just like a beginner when I try
This topic is about those that we have trouble with This exercise was one of those. I can play it after a while but not in 160bpm just as I take guitar. Maybe for some of you guys this doesn't look that difficult. The point is that your pull off has to be clean, strong and sharp as ice. This reverse pattern 12-p-8---12-p-10 is one of the harder ones for me.
Posted by: Jose Mena May 21 2009, 03:07 PM
This topic is about those that we have trouble with This exercise was one of those. I can play it after a while but not in 160bpm just as I take guitar. Maybe for some of you guys this doesn't look that difficult. The point is that your pull off has to be clean, strong and sharp as ice. This reverse pattern 12-p-8---12-p-10 is one of the harder ones for me.I see, I tried the pattern it looks simpler than it is, I can see where one would get tired, but I consider the patterns you did in your Symphony X style lesson almost next to impossible.
This one is a pattern that has caused me pain, I heard it from Michael Angelo and have not been able to play it for some reason, and it looks simple, I am pretty sure others can, but my mind has a block against it.
It is all 16th notes. all alternate picking, if I have to play it, I do some legato, I cannot alternate pick this one above 140 bpm (I haven't actually measured it just an estimate). Rhythm displacement happens here that is why what seems to be a repetitive pattern feels weird.
--15-12------------12-15-12----------12-15-12-----------------
--------13-12-13------------13-12-13----------13-12-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: sted May 21 2009, 03:38 PM
John Wheatcroft was your teacher? I'm sure he is from Merseyside somewhere, small world!
Posted by: Muris Varajic May 21 2009, 03:41 PM
Very true, we easily get used to some things we play most of the time,
it's time for breaking old habits.
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 03:46 PM
Jose, you mentioned why you can`t play this above 140bmp, your mind has block to it! The reason is if you think you can not do something, then you really can`t. Our mind is powerful tool, and I`m sure you can play it somewhere around 180 with right attitude! Also you did 220 and 240 (160 tr.) bpm lessons so it should be pretty easy for you.
But pattern is tricky, requires a lot of pinky use. Thanks, I like those exercises!
Interesting what Emir and Muris will say about this one. btw Muris bring us some scary stuff!
Posted by: Jose Mena May 21 2009, 04:21 PM
Also you did 220 and 240 (160 tr.) bpm lessons so it should be pretty easy for you.But pattern is tricky, requires a lot of pinky use. Thanks, I like those exercises!
Interesting what Emir and Muris will say about this one. btw Muris bring us some scary stuff!
I don't know why this pattern messes me up, and there is this variation, going up and down the same notes in octaves, even harder, might be the same as Emir's Pattern, maybe intermediate players can tackle this one like it was nothing
--15-12---------------------------------------------------------------12-15-12----
---------13-12------------------------------------------------12-13---------------
------------------12-9----------------------------------9-12----------------------
-------------------------10-9----------------------9-10---------------------------
-------------------------------10-7---------7--10---------------------------------
-------------------------------------8-7-8----------------------------------------
The problem is the rhythm displacement, my mind can't work with those accents at those positions at higher speeds, and gets lost. I've highlighted where the accents are so everyone can understand what I mean.
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 04:27 PM
He has some north Scotland accent.
--15-12---------------------------------------------------------------12-15-12----
---------13-12------------------------------------------------12-13---------------
------------------12-9----------------------------------9-12----------------------
-------------------------10-9----------------------9-10---------------------------
-------------------------------10-7---------7--10---------------------------------
-------------------------------------8-7-8----------------------------------------
The problem is the rhythm displacement, my mind can't work with those accents at those positions at higher speeds, and gets lost. I've highlighted where the accents are so everyone can understand what I mean.
You see things like that happen to you as well
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 04:32 PM
Cool sounding pattern you got here! Btw descending part is very easy for me, but accentuate ascending part right is another story.
How fast you can play this?
Posted by: Jose Mena May 21 2009, 04:45 PM
I guess to everyone, is this pattern easy for you?
How fast you can play this?
Don't know maybe 150.
Posted by: Emir Hot May 21 2009, 04:52 PM
Yes pretty much I have just tried it. accents are on normal groups of four.
Posted by: Jose Mena May 21 2009, 05:13 PM
As AlexLion says, the tricky part is going back up, because the accent is weird, at least for me
Posted by: fkalich May 21 2009, 05:21 PM
It is all 16th notes. all alternate picking, if I have to play it, I do some legato, I cannot alternate pick this one above 140 bpm (I haven't actually measured it just an estimate). Rhythm displacement happens here that is why what seems to be a repetitive pattern feels weird.
--15-12------------12-15-12----------12-15-12-----------------
--------13-12-13------------13-12-13----------13-12-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
That is a beautiful rhythm. Myself, it comes natural to. I deserve one easy thing once in a awhile (Hot's exercise is not one of those). Muris uses that rhythm in the second part of his tapping on his early lesson, Beginner-Intermediate Solo. If you listen to an old Eric Clapton song, the solo at the end, you hear it also, "Let it Rain". Although on both the rhythm is on 3 notes repetitively, not the 4 note pattern. I believe you are talking about the same rhythm though, or just about. On the 3 note patterns it repeats itself every 96 notes, not every 16 as in this 4 note example. Or so it seems to me.
Posted by: AlexLion May 21 2009, 05:31 PM
Off top: Fkalich your avatar is hilarious!
Posted by: fkalich May 21 2009, 05:38 PM
Thanks. All 8 of mine are like that, they might as well be armed. I felt bad for the little bunny rabbit I found on my porch last night. If they had guns, at least it would have been painless.
Regarding what I said about Jose's rhythm, I think it is the same as in the second part of section 5 of this Muris lession, only it is done with 3 notes here. I think Thin Lizzy used it also a lot. I know Clapton did. Clapton had great rhythm.
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/b-major-intermediate-solo/
Posted by: Daniel Robinson May 22 2009, 06:20 AM
My weakness besides my mediocre legato, is the ability to play groups of notes that are even numbers.
Down thru the years most of the licks i have composed and use daily forever are odd numbered groupings, I.E. 3,5,7,9,11,13...and some 15's. These serve me well but unless your playing in odd time signatures or grouping them in 16th/16th trip combinations within the context of normal time signatures (4/4, 6/8) for example, all my licks are not subdividing the measure in a normal way and have a tendency to sound like pickup notes in the middle of a measure.
I think this stems from the fact that when i was learning there was things that i couldnt play all together at a relatively fast pace, so i would break them up with pauses inbetween. And as time went by those pauses between groupings were more pronounced.
I guess i one hand its a flaw in my playing, but in another way its part of my style as a player.
When trying to incorporate straight groupings of 2,4,6,8 etc and so forth...i can do it now but i am not able to achieve the speed of the odd groupings because my brain wants to either have one more note, or 1 less note.
Daniel
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