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> Caprice 24, Take One, How can I improve from here?
Adam
post Oct 17 2019, 11:10 PM
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Hi! I've been practicing this piece for some time now and though I can't play it at blazing speed I've still learned a thing or two. Today I've finally managed to get the first variation right and to play it somewhat fluently. Could you please give me some feedback or hints, regarding what should I prioritize to improve from this point?

I know the last part is really quiet and I messed up the timing a bit there but I've transcribed that part today and I'm not yet used to the sequence.



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klasaine
post Oct 18 2019, 03:44 AM
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It's really instructive to listen to stuff like this on the instrument it was written for, especially for the phrasing and melodic emphasis.
Itzhak Perlman. This is one of the most 'classic' recordings of this piece ...



Here's a transcription for classical guitar - Su Meng. Unbelievable technique ...



It's a Caprice.
It means whimsical, unpredictable, impulsive, sudden, etc.




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Adam
post Oct 18 2019, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 18 2019, 03:44 AM) *
It's really instructive to listen to stuff like this on the instrument it was written for, especially for the phrasing and melodic emphasis.
Itzhak Perlman. This is one of the most 'classic' recordings of this piece ...



Here's a transcription for classical guitar - Su Meng. Unbelievable technique ...



It's a Caprice.
It means whimsical, unpredictable, impulsive, sudden, etc.

I agree, it's really instructive to hear a violin performance. I'm not comfortable with the fingerings nor advanced technique-wise at a degree that would allow me to add a lot of dynamics to it. I'm still working on just being able to play the thing at all. I tried adding the pauses to the main theme and just that tuned up the difficulty by a few levels.

The lady's technique is really impressive, coming from someone who has a grudge for classical musicians (in my country they graduate with an inflated ego and look down on anyone who learns by themselves or takes classes with contempt, even the guitar teachers).
I don't mind learning classical aspects and techniques but even if I do, I'll be a rogue classicist.

One of the teachers in Middle School once said that the beauty of score sheets lies in the freedom in interpreting them, like reciting a poem with one's own accentuation and dynamics in voice.
I'm including Becker's performance for comparison, sadly I couldn't find a video recording of it.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Jason_Becker___Paganini_s_24th_Caprice__16_Yrs_Old_.mp3 ( 10.58MB ) Number of downloads: 7
 


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 18 2019, 02:39 PM
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Impeccable taste per usual. Two great grabs. Each different in their own way, yet tied through the thread of classical construction.

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 17 2019, 10:44 PM) *
It's really instructive to listen to stuff like this on the instrument it was written for, especially for the phrasing and melodic emphasis.
Itzhak Perlman. This is one of the most 'classic' recordings of this piece ...



Here's a transcription for classical guitar - Su Meng. Unbelievable technique ...



It's a Caprice.
It means whimsical, unpredictable, impulsive, sudden, etc.
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klasaine
post Oct 18 2019, 03:13 PM
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What are you transcribing it from?
The Jason Becker version was done when he was 16. It's impressive but there are some inaccuracies in the the rhythm as well as some notes.
Just check the rhythm for the first 24 bars - the 'theme'. It's very specific. Interpretation and nuance is one thing but wrong rhythm is another, even when you play it slowly. Nicolo Pagannini was pretty specific about the rhythm. That first part sets up the rest of the variations.

I don't know if you read music at all but this might help.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 18 2019, 03:14 PM
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Adam
post Oct 18 2019, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 18 2019, 02:39 PM) *
Impeccable taste per usual. Two great grabs. Each different in their own way, yet tied through the thread of classical construction.

I suddenly feel like pushing my one-handed play and legato even further for both cleanliness and strength. I'm trying to do some extra work while playing Bootcamp pieces like multipicking and position switching. I was also instructed that sweeping etc. is best practiced at super slow tempos. Could you give me one or two extra tasks with each Debrief?

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 18 2019, 03:13 PM) *
What are you transcribing it from?
The Jason Becker version was done when he was 16. It's impressive but there are some inaccuracies in the the rhythm as well as some notes.
Just check the rhythm for the first 24 bars - the 'theme'. It's very specific. Interpretation and nuance is one thing but wrong rhythm is another, even when you play it slowly. Nicolo Pagannini was pretty specific about the rhythm. That first part sets up the rest of the variations.

I don't know if you read music at all but this might help.

Attached Image

At the age of 16 it's a huge accompilshment, even if it's inaccurate at some spots and if Jason didn't contract ALS when he did, he might have played all 24 pieces in due time. When YJM was making excuses how it's impossible to play, Jason picked up a guitar and played it.

I was lucky to buy a paperback score sheet for Op. 1 (Caprices) years ago. Back when I didn't know how lucky I was smile.gif
I'm starting to learn reading score sheets.
I know note and pause values and some of the dynamics tempo terms but I need quite a lot of time to read the notes for just 1 variation.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "very specific". Mine says Quasi Presto, 2|4 and has (p) for piano marker that changes into (f) for forte in Variation 1 (just like in the sheet you posted).

This post has been edited by Adam: Oct 18 2019, 05:14 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 18 2019, 05:20 PM
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Things like this are GREAT additions to your practice routine. Really, anyones practice routine. Learning hard pieces note by note is part of the process. Good catch ken on noticing a few notes were no transcribeb properly. You have the eye of a pro that's for sure.
QUOTE (Adam @ Oct 17 2019, 06:10 PM) *
edHi! I've been practicing this piece for some time now and though I can't play it at blazing speed I've still learned a thing or two. Today I've finally managed to get the first variation right and to play it somewhat fluently. Could you please give me some feedback or hints, regarding what should I prioritize to improve from this point?

I know the last part is really quiet and I messed up the timing a bit there but I've transcribed that part today and I'm not yet used to the sequence.

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klasaine
post Oct 18 2019, 05:55 PM
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"Quasi Presto" is the tempo (speed) marking. Presto means very fast. Quasi means almost. So, fast but not super fast.

I'm not referring to your speed. - that will come with practice.
I'm referring to the rhythm of the first phrase. You're playing it incorrectly. That's why I posted those two videos.
Learning and practicing a rhythm and/or phrase incorrectly will ingrain that mistake into your head and hands and it will be a lot harder to correct it later.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 18 2019, 06:13 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 18 2019, 08:31 PM
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Yet another very sage piece of advice from our resident pro. If you learn something the wrong way, it's quite hard to re learn it the right way typically. I've done this very thing to myself on many occasions. I had to re learn econ picking as I was just doing it badly. Now it's one of my fave ways to play licks and they flow very easily, while I see other folks going through the same hell as me.

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 18 2019, 12:55 PM) *
"Quasi Presto" is the tempo (speed) marking. Presto means very fast. Quasi means almost. So, fast but not super fast.

I'm not referring to your speed. - that will come with practice.
I'm referring to the rhythm of the first phrase. You're playing it incorrectly. That's why I posted those two videos.
Learning and practicing a rhythm and/or phrase incorrectly will ingrain that mistake into your head and hands and it will be a lot harder to correct it later.
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Adam
post Oct 22 2019, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 18 2019, 05:20 PM) *
Things like this are GREAT additions to your practice routine. Really, anyones practice routine. Learning hard pieces note by note is part of the process. Good catch ken on noticing a few notes were no transcribeb properly. You have the eye of a pro that's for sure.

Learning these even at a Rookie speed is a great lesson to learn from. And as you often say, speed is a byproduct of precision, so it's wiser to focus on the latter smile.gif

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 18 2019, 05:55 PM) *
"Quasi Presto" is the tempo (speed) marking. Presto means very fast. Quasi means almost. So, fast but not super fast.

I'm not referring to your speed. - that will come with practice.
I'm referring to the rhythm of the first phrase. You're playing it incorrectly. That's why I posted those two videos.
Learning and practicing a rhythm and/or phrase incorrectly will ingrain that mistake into your head and hands and it will be a lot harder to correct it later.

Thank you for the feedback! I think I re-learnd tha phrase properly and I'll shoot another take soon.

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 18 2019, 08:31 PM) *
Yet another very sage piece of advice from our resident pro. If you learn something the wrong way, it's quite hard to re learn it the right way typically. I've done this very thing to myself on many occasions. I had to re learn econ picking as I was just doing it badly. Now it's one of my fave ways to play licks and they flow very easily, while I see other folks going through the same hell as me.

I agree! I'm starting to enjoy Econ picking myself lately and I see how it opens a new possibilities to me. I'll have to learn hybrid picking sometime later too. By the look of it, I'll need it to play later variations.

Speaking of which, I come across term 'variation' here and 'movement' in pieces like Vivaldi's Le Quattro Stagioni. What is the difference between them?

I also have another question, unrelated. Haendel's Sarabande, Vivaldi's La Follia and Corelli's La Follia use the same main theme. Could someone explain to me how does this work, please?


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klasaine
post Oct 22 2019, 04:50 PM
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Movement v. Variation ...
A 'movement' is a different section and usually will be based on a different form, chord progression, tempo.
A 'variation', coming from Theme and Variations, uses the same main chord progression and/or bass line motion and the main "theme"( or melody) then gets changed throughout the subsequent variations. Usually going from simple to more complex. The time signature can change and most theme and variations have a slow variation. Some variations add more instruments, etc.
Look at the Caprice 24: the theme main harmony is Am E Am E (repeat) then Am Dm G C E7 Am Dm A. The first variation keeps the same basic chord structure/progression but changes the melody to triplets. Etc.

Similarities in Handel, Corelli and Vivaldi (also Marais, Lully and Vitalli) ...
A lot of late medieval, renaissance and baroque music took main themes or "cantus firmus" from existing and earlier music. In these examples you can hear similar a melody as well as similar if not the same bass motion in the first sections. Then as now, using the same chord progression is not considered stealing. At that time, using the same bass motion in the first section (theme or mvt) was very normal because that was what set up the harmony. you'll notice that after the first section is stated, then the pieces diverge.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 22 2019, 07:47 PM
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Adam
post Oct 26 2019, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 22 2019, 05:50 PM) *
Movement v. Variation ...
A 'movement' is a different section and usually will be based on a different form, chord progression, tempo.
A 'variation', coming from Theme and Variations, uses the same main chord progression and/or bass line motion and the main "theme"( or melody) then gets changed throughout the subsequent variations. Usually going from simple to more complex. The time signature can change and most theme and variations have a slow variation. Some variations add more instruments, etc.
Look at the Caprice 24: the theme main harmony is Am E Am E (repeat) then Am Dm G C E7 Am Dm A. The first variation keeps the same basic chord structure/progression but changes the melody to triplets. Etc.

Similarities in Handel, Corelli and Vivaldi (also Marais, Lully and Vitalli) ...
A lot of late medieval, renaissance and baroque music took main themes or "cantus firmus" from existing and earlier music. In these examples you can hear similar a melody as well as similar if not the same bass motion in the first sections. Then as now, using the same chord progression is not considered stealing. At that time, using the same bass motion in the first section (theme or mvt) was very normal because that was what set up the harmony. you'll notice that after the first section is stated, then the pieces diverge.

Thank you for the explanation! I was able to understand quite a bit right away and a bit more after looking at Caprice 24 sheets.

The other concept of setting up the harmony is interesting too! I will take time to start learning theory bit by bit soon after I graduate because I'm missing out on a lot!


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 26 2019, 06:08 PM
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A KILLER answer from KEN. Couldn't add anything to that. It's perfect and should go in the WIKI imho.

Yeah, theory takes time. It's just another aspect of the instrument and another facet of your journey. You will learn more theory as you learn more music. You have a natural curiosity which is great. It will take you towards new info instead of away from it.

QUOTE (Adam @ Oct 26 2019, 12:09 AM) *
Thank you for the explanation! I was able to understand quite a bit right away and a bit more after looking at Caprice 24 sheets.

The other concept of setting up the harmony is interesting too! I will take time to start learning theory bit by bit soon after I graduate because I'm missing out on a lot!
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MisterM
post Oct 26 2019, 06:10 PM
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Nice job Adam wink.gif
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