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GMC Forum _ CHILL OUT _ It's Election Day In The Usa
Posted by: fkalich Nov 2 2010, 11:34 PM
This guy is considered by most to be the most likely choice for her running mate, when Sarah Palin makes her bid for the presidency in 2012.
Posted by: thefireball Nov 3 2010, 12:00 AM
just got back from voting
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 3 2010, 01:38 AM
He sounds smater than Biden
Posted by: Azzaboi Nov 3 2010, 02:38 AM
Plays "Korn - Politics" ...
Posted by: Gary Nov 3 2010, 04:24 AM
+1
Given the choice between Ultimate Warrior and Biden.. bring on the wrestler
Posted by: fkalich Nov 3 2010, 04:28 AM
I am no Biiden fan. However at least he did mange to get a law degree. That sure beats a beauty contest runner up who spent 6 years going to 5 second and third rate schools and just got a 4 year bachelor's degree.
Posted by: Gary Nov 3 2010, 06:30 AM
Well Joe is far from an academic scholar.. graduated 65th in a class of 86. He is also a career politician, basically spent his entire working life on the public payroll. I don't particularly dislike Biden however I think he represents exactly what this country has had enough of.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 3 2010, 07:28 AM
I'm not fan of the Democrats, but you'd have to be insane to vote for ANY Republican. They're the ones who drove us into this ditch, you think they're going to get us out of it? Hell no. They don't even have a plan to fix anything, they're only goal is to deregulate the financial system. Deregulation got us into this mess in the first place. They're supposedly against government spending, but have no objection to the government dumping BILLIONS of dollars into the military and wars. That same money could be used for infrastructure and education here, but to them, thats "bad government spending" and "handouts to the lazy". What a bunch of hypocrites.
To all the international readers that are reading this, if you are familiar with the Tea Party, I can tell you they don't represent the general sentiment in this country. They're just a fringe group of retards that don't know anything about what they support. They think they're a grassroots movement, but they're not, they're funded by billionaires such as the Koch Brothers. I make no apologies for my country, but clearly we have some serious issues we have to deal with.
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 3 2010, 09:19 AM
I haven't read to much about TEA party, besides their conservative/libertarian agendas, of which all I support, because i view any redistribution as a theft. Still it is possible that this is a "controlled" movement. The whole problem with democracy is that the goal of all major parties is not to change anything but to rule for profits, and nowadays mindless masses can be controlled without effort by the national/private media. I don't know what can be done with this, but if somebody has to vote, than it's always better to vote for the smallest theft possible..
Posted by: Gary Nov 4 2010, 08:16 AM
To all the international readers that are reading this, if you are familiar with the Tea Party, I can tell you they don't represent the general sentiment in this country. They're just a fringe group of retards that don't know anything about what they support. They think they're a grassroots movement, but they're not, they're funded by billionaires such as the Koch Brothers. I make no apologies for my country, but clearly we have some serious issues we have to deal with.
Whoa dude... calling people "retards" because they disagree with your political beliefs, seriously?? At some point I guess I will stop being amazed at how intolerant people who lean to the left can be.
I guess my first question for you is.. have you ever been to a tea party meeting? Do you even know what they are about? My guess in no, and ummmm..no.
There happens to be a contingency of tea party members who meet near my house, my mom attends regularly and I attended a meeting with her awhile back. What types of people were there? Republicans mostly, however there were also democrats and libertarians. The ones I met were pretty far removed from being “retarded”, actually they were educated (well versed in US history) and many of them, like me, had young kids. As a group they appeared genuinely concerned regarding the current unabated expansion of the US Govt and the explosion of debt that our current president has saddled this and many future generations with.
Your statement that tea party members maintain "no idea" of what they support is both inaccurate and disingenuous. They know exactly what they’re after, in a nutshell it’s smaller federal government, fiscal responsibility and yes, free markets. These are the "serious issues" in their eyes, and as such they support candidates who align with their vision. Are there fringe elements to the tea party movement? No doubt. However it cuts both ways, check out moveon.org and its fringe elements (Billionaire George Soros backed btw).. Given the choice bro, I will take the tea party any day of the week.
As for our current economic situation, saying the republicans "drove is into this ditch" is partly correct but far from the whole story. Bush had some serious faults regarding deficit spending. However using your analogy, if the republicans steered us into a ditch then the democrats, who had complete control of congress since 2006 (and therefore control over the economic purse strings of this country), have wrestled away the steering wheel, pointed us towards a cliff and hammered the gas pedal. This county is facing a debt crisis of monumental proportions and it’s largely the result of bail outs and stimulus spending that together has failed to produce any upwards effect on the economy, a near completely failed policy. Note that Obama has added more to the national debt than every president from Washington though Reagan (yes that’s combined). In terms of spending he has made Bush look like a pauper.
Lastly, regarding your comment that financial deregulation caused this economic mess. I believe this to be partly accurate, however before you assign blanket blame to the republicans here please research who deregulated the mortgage market, which is really at the core of our economic crisis (hint: it was the democrats). This took place back under the presidency of Bill Clinton and was largely the handiwork of democratic congressmen Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. It was their efforts to ensure that everyone and anyone be able to secure a mortgage for a house (regardless if they possessed the means to ever pay it back) that created the housing bubble. The widespread failure of these loans lies at the root of our economic woes.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 4 2010, 10:09 AM
Sorry dude, if someone supports Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell or Sharon Angel, they are retarded. Only a fool follows a fool. None of them have ever said anything of substance. Are you seriously going to tell me the three of them are intelligent and are capable of leading this country?
Have I ever been to a Tea Party meeting? No, I'm a person of Middle Eastern descent living in the South, why the hell would I attend a meeting of a bunch of racist red necks? I am very familiar with the Tea baggers, this the South by the way, and they're all over the place. I have conversed with them many times and know what they're all about. Surprisingly, I have actually been invited to one of their meetings, simply because I displayed displeasure with Obama. But I know its best to avoid such meetings, because in this country its okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent, you can thank Fox News for that. I can deal with the name calling, in fact I find it funny sometimes, but receiving threats is on another level entirely.
Since you brought up intolerance, where were the tea baggers when Bush was in office? Where were they when he and the Republicans ran up the deficit? I don't know if you remember, but it was Bush that bailed out the banks, not Obama. As far as the stimulus, half of it was tax cuts, I bet Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh failed to tell you that. Ninety-eight percent of Americans saw their taxes REDUCED under Obama, not increased. Also, the majority of the deficit we have now was inherited from Bush, Obama did not cause it. And of course, where the hell where the tea baggers when Bush wasted ONE TRILLION dollars on war?
Heres why tea baggers are pissed: Tea baggers are pissed because theres a black man in the White House, plain and simple. That is intolerance.
As far as expansion of the Government, where were the tea baggers when Bush created the Department of Homeland Security? Which is one of the largest government institutions... in the world. How come they never protested the farm subsidies? All of a sudden when a black man becomes president we have reached the end of days?
By the way, whats wrong with George Soros? Did you know he spent millions fighting communism in his home country of Hungary? I'm sure Fox news failed to tell you that. Yet they label him a Communist, how disingenuous.
The tea baggers don't even know what the original Boston Tea Party was about... it was about tax cuts. Blasphemy! No seriously, the colonist were upset about tax cuts implemented by the British Government. These tax cuts were given to the British East India Company, which enabled them to have a monopoly on the tea market. This caused a lot of losses for businesses in the colonies, and caused a lot of distress as you would imagine.
Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican.
The tea baggers demonize Obama because he wanted to prevent children from losing health coverage while their dying. Tell me, do you want children being denied care while they're dying? Why would anybody want that? Only if you're inhuman or, heres the word again, retarded would you want such a thing. Yet that is the Tea Party position. Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world, and the tea baggers wanted to maintain the status quo, thats disgusting.
To a person with a polarized mind, it may seem like I'm a Democrat, which couldn't be further from the truth. I can't stand them either, but the Republicans have become so lunatic the Democrats seem pretty moderate. In just about every election I have voted for myself or Homer Simpson.
The tea baggers don't want any government intervention in their lives, but do want the government going into peoples bedrooms and telling them who they can or cannot sleep with. They're not exactly gay friendly.
The tea baggers also claim to live and die by the Constitution, yet aren't really familiar with the first amendment, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Funny how they missed that part. Yes I'm talking to you Christine O'Donnell.
The tea baggers claim to support freedom and property rights, but when some Americans want to build a mosque they protest it and say they can't build it there. What happened to their support of freedom of religion and property rights?
And finally, there already is a country that has everything the tea baggers want: limited government, unfettered capitalism, and the implementation of religious law. That country is Somalia. If you think the tea baggers vision for this country is so great, go stay in Somalia for a few weeks, if you last that long.
Posted by: Gitarrero Nov 4 2010, 10:38 AM
Well guys, I must admit, what you two write is incredibly interesting for an outsider who is interested in US politics and stuff.
But still, it kinda reminds me of a thread with a more religious background where (I guess) Azza and The Uncreator exchanged their opposite positions till the point where the thread had to be closed. I see this thread is heading in this direction as well. As much as I like the fact that stuff like politics and religion can be discussed at GMC, I suggest you two take a break and start jamming again 
Just my two cents...again, I really enjoy reading your different opinions.
Christian
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 4 2010, 04:53 PM
But still, it kinda reminds me of a thread with a more religious background where (I guess) Azza and The Uncreator exchanged their opposite positions till the point where the thread had to be closed. I see this thread is heading in this direction as well. As much as I like the fact that stuff like politics and religion can be discussed at GMC, I suggest you two take a break and start jamming again
Just my two cents...again, I really enjoy reading your different opinions.
Christian
If this thread starts discussing religion, I just won't participate in it, as I have found out it is impossible to argue with faith fanatics. The religious fundamentalists (of any religion) have no need for logic and reason, so how can they be reasoned with? A persons faith is their own business, until they wish to implement it on me, then we're going to have some serious issues.
I'm sure outside of politics, Gary and I would probably get along just great. But you see, politics in the US have become so polarized because some people cannot except a black man as president, not that I'm accusing Gary in particular of such a sentiment, but definitely the Tea Party as a whole.
Are politics in Germany this divisive? It seems like in Germany the different parties have their differences, but will cooperate when it comes little German kids dying, but not so here. At least in Germany the parties seem to recognize each other as fellow Germans. The right wing in the United States can't except when the other side wins. They say the "American people" didn't choose Obamas policy. Well who elected him then? Did a bunch of Mexicans jump the border and vote for him? See, they can't except that some Americans have different opinions than them.
But I'm definitely gonna take your advice gitarrero, and will start jamming again
This is a guitar site after all, we all come here to learn and talk about our love for music, not politics 
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 4 2010, 06:00 PM
We have political mess here in Poland, biggest opposition party says that people who vote on them are "true Poles", and the rest are some "Jewish-Russo-German servants" (not a bad combination if You ask me ). Still I think it is just for "fun". In media the politics are enemies, because of that mindless average people take all this seriously and are ready to "fight each other", but in fact all those politics are good fellows, that earn money doing this whole circus. To sum up the situation in this country:
We have four parties in the parliament:
1. anti-abortion socialists that are considered "right wing" because of their "catholic" talks.
2. "we don't care about abortion" socialists who are considered "center", they call themselves liberals, yet rise taxes, rise the number of government organizations. They are the ruling party now, mostly because they control the biggest TV channel in the country.
3. pro-abortion socialists, descendants of the communistic party, in fact they lowered the taxes a bit few years ago when they ruled, but that was because the country was in such dire situation, that without it we would be in crisis for the last 10 years.
4. "we don't care about anything" socialists, in fact we can call them a mafia, because they "represent" the countryside, but not the majority - the poor farmers, but the minority of those few rich guys that live outside of cities. This party will soon disappear, all of their members moving sooner or later to the above three.
The only thing that matters to those parties is what statistically pleases most of the people, they don't have any ideology besides doing what earns them most. In media they are in constant war, this is the "reason" why nothing changes for years, because the opposition doesn't let the changes to happen. It is almost impossible to have even one representative in parliament from other group than above four. For me all of them should be closed in jails, but of course I am not willing to pay for their food or accommodation, they stole enough already.
Don't know if this post has any merit, but Gitarreo said he likes such stuff, and it is never enough of grumbling about situation in my country 
Posted by: Praetorian Nov 5 2010, 10:02 PM
Mudbone - calling people "retarded" because of their political views speaks volumes about your character.
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 6 2010, 02:30 AM
Have I ever been to a Tea Party meeting? No, I'm a person of Middle Eastern descent living in the South, why the hell would I attend a meeting of a bunch of racist red necks? I am very familiar with the Tea baggers, this the South by the way, and they're all over the place. I have conversed with them many times and know what they're all about. Surprisingly, I have actually been invited to one of their meetings, simply because I displayed displeasure with Obama. But I know its best to avoid such meetings, because in this country its okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent, you can thank Fox News for that. I can deal with the name calling, in fact I find it funny sometimes, but receiving threats is on another level entirely.
Since you brought up intolerance, where were the tea baggers when Bush was in office? Where were they when he and the Republicans ran up the deficit? I don't know if you remember, but it was Bush that bailed out the banks, not Obama. As far as the stimulus, half of it was tax cuts, I bet Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh failed to tell you that. Ninety-eight percent of Americans saw their taxes REDUCED under Obama, not increased. Also, the majority of the deficit we have now was inherited from Bush, Obama did not cause it. And of course, where the hell where the tea baggers when Bush wasted ONE TRILLION dollars on war?
Heres why tea baggers are pissed: Tea baggers are pissed because theres a black man in the White House, plain and simple. That is intolerance.
As far as expansion of the Government, where were the tea baggers when Bush created the Department of Homeland Security? Which is one of the largest government institutions... in the world. How come they never protested the farm subsidies? All of a sudden when a black man becomes president we have reached the end of days?
By the way, whats wrong with George Soros? Did you know he spent millions fighting communism in his home country of Hungary? I'm sure Fox news failed to tell you that. Yet they label him a Communist, how disingenuous.
The tea baggers don't even know what the original Boston Tea Party was about... it was about tax cuts. Blasphemy! No seriously, the colonist were upset about tax cuts implemented by the British Government. These tax cuts were given to the British East India Company, which enabled them to have a monopoly on the tea market. This caused a lot of losses for businesses in the colonies, and caused a lot of distress as you would imagine.
Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican.
The tea baggers demonize Obama because he wanted to prevent children from losing health coverage while their dying. Tell me, do you want children being denied care while they're dying? Why would anybody want that? Only if you're inhuman or, heres the word again, retarded would you want such a thing. Yet that is the Tea Party position. Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world, and the tea baggers wanted to maintain the status quo, thats disgusting.
To a person with a polarized mind, it may seem like I'm a Democrat, which couldn't be further from the truth. I can't stand them either, but the Republicans have become so lunatic the Democrats seem pretty moderate. In just about every election I have voted for myself or Homer Simpson.
The tea baggers don't want any government intervention in their lives, but do want the government going into peoples bedrooms and telling them who they can or cannot sleep with. They're not exactly gay friendly.
The tea baggers also claim to live and die by the Constitution, yet aren't really familiar with the first amendment, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Funny how they missed that part. Yes I'm talking to you Christine O'Donnell.
The tea baggers claim to support freedom and property rights, but when some Americans want to build a mosque they protest it and say they can't build it there. What happened to their support of freedom of religion and property rights?
And finally, there already is a country that has everything the tea baggers want: limited government, unfettered capitalism, and the implementation of religious law. That country is Somalia. If you think the tea baggers vision for this country is so great, go stay in Somalia for a few weeks, if you last that long.
Just name one thing besides taking your money, that the government does that is'nt in or on the edge of bankruptcy
This leads me to the Fair tax------ fairtax.org
This is a replacement tax that goes into effect the january following the abolishment of the 16th amendment--Firing the IRS
in short there are 22 percent embeded taxes on everything you buy. when the IRS no longer collecting this the fairtax is enacted at 23.7 percent. so in reality you will be paying 1.7 percent more of what you buy but you will be doing it with 100 percent of your money ---You choose
1.7 percent of everything you buy or 30 percent of everything you make
This is the big problem , it takes power away from the politicians and gives it back to the people where it should be
i type slow so don't ask me questions , ask them http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main
I'm sure outside of politics, Gary and I would probably get along just great. But you see, politics in the US have become so polarized because some people cannot except a black man as president, not that I'm accusing Gary in particular of such a sentiment, but definitely the Tea Party as a whole.
Are politics in Germany this divisive? It seems like in Germany the different parties have their differences, but will cooperate when it comes little German kids dying, but not so here. At least in Germany the parties seem to recognize each other as fellow Germans. The right wing in the United States can't except when the other side wins. They say the "American people" didn't choose Obamas policy. Well who elected him then? Did a bunch of Mexicans jump the border and vote for him? See, they can't except that some Americans have different opinions than them.
But I'm definitely gonna take your advice gitarrero, and will start jamming again
This is a guitar site after all, we all come here to learn and talk about our love for music, not politics It is also hard to argue with government faith fanatics ----- not saying you are one
Have I ever been to a Tea Party meeting? No, I'm a person of Middle Eastern descent living in the South, why the hell would I attend a meeting of a bunch of racist red necks? I am very familiar with the Tea baggers, this the South by the way, and they're all over the place. I have conversed with them many times and know what they're all about. Surprisingly, I have actually been invited to one of their meetings, simply because I displayed displeasure with Obama. But I know its best to avoid such meetings, because in this country its okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent, you can thank Fox News for that. I can deal with the name calling, in fact I find it funny sometimes, but receiving threats is on another level entirely.
Since you brought up intolerance, where were the tea baggers when Bush was in office? Where were they when he and the Republicans ran up the deficit? I don't know if you remember, but it was Bush that bailed out the banks, not Obama. As far as the stimulus, half of it was tax cuts, I bet Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh failed to tell you that. Ninety-eight percent of Americans saw their taxes REDUCED under Obama, not increased. Also, the majority of the deficit we have now was inherited from Bush, Obama did not cause it. And of course, where the hell where the tea baggers when Bush wasted ONE TRILLION dollars on war?
Heres why tea baggers are pissed: Tea baggers are pissed because theres a black man in the White House, plain and simple. That is intolerance.
As far as expansion of the Government, where were the tea baggers when Bush created the Department of Homeland Security? Which is one of the largest government institutions... in the world. How come they never protested the farm subsidies? All of a sudden when a black man becomes president we have reached the end of days?
By the way, whats wrong with George Soros? Did you know he spent millions fighting communism in his home country of Hungary? I'm sure Fox news failed to tell you that. Yet they label him a Communist, how disingenuous.
The tea baggers don't even know what the original Boston Tea Party was about... it was about tax cuts. Blasphemy! No seriously, the colonist were upset about tax cuts implemented by the British Government. These tax cuts were given to the British East India Company, which enabled them to have a monopoly on the tea market. This caused a lot of losses for businesses in the colonies, and caused a lot of distress as you would imagine.
Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican.
The tea baggers demonize Obama because he wanted to prevent children from losing health coverage while their dying. Tell me, do you want children being denied care while they're dying? Why would anybody want that? Only if you're inhuman or, heres the word again, retarded would you want such a thing. Yet that is the Tea Party position. Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world, and the tea baggers wanted to maintain the status quo, thats disgusting.
To a person with a polarized mind, it may seem like I'm a Democrat, which couldn't be further from the truth. I can't stand them either, but the Republicans have become so lunatic the Democrats seem pretty moderate. In just about every election I have voted for myself or Homer Simpson.
The tea baggers don't want any government intervention in their lives, but do want the government going into peoples bedrooms and telling them who they can or cannot sleep with. They're not exactly gay friendly.
The tea baggers also claim to live and die by the Constitution, yet aren't really familiar with the first amendment, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Funny how they missed that part. Yes I'm talking to you Christine O'Donnell.
The tea baggers claim to support freedom and property rights, but when some Americans want to build a mosque they protest it and say they can't build it there. What happened to their support of freedom of religion and property rights?
And finally, there already is a country that has everything the tea baggers want: limited government, unfettered capitalism, and the implementation of religious law. That country is Somalia. If you think the tea baggers vision for this country is so great, go stay in Somalia for a few weeks, if you last that long.
and the first tea party was about taxation with out representation ,i think you should go to a rally and if they condem if you can tell me what they said that you found offensive- I will stand up on your behal, but don't drink the cool aid of the media because that is what your rhetoric sounds like ---Find out for your self
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 04:47 AM
). Still I think it is just for "fun". In media the politics are enemies, because of that mindless average people take all this seriously and are ready to "fight each other", but in fact all those politics are good fellows, that earn money doing this whole circus. To sum up the situation in this country:We have four parties in the parliament:
1. anti-abortion socialists that are considered "right wing" because of their "catholic" talks.
2. "we don't care about abortion" socialists who are considered "center", they call themselves liberals, yet rise taxes, rise the number of government organizations. They are the ruling party now, mostly because they control the biggest TV channel in the country.
3. pro-abortion socialists, descendants of the communistic party, in fact they lowered the taxes a bit few years ago when they ruled, but that was because the country was in such dire situation, that without it we would be in crisis for the last 10 years.
4. "we don't care about anything" socialists, in fact we can call them a mafia, because they "represent" the countryside, but not the majority - the poor farmers, but the minority of those few rich guys that live outside of cities. This party will soon disappear, all of their members moving sooner or later to the above three.
The only thing that matters to those parties is what statistically pleases most of the people, they don't have any ideology besides doing what earns them most. In media they are in constant war, this is the "reason" why nothing changes for years, because the opposition doesn't let the changes to happen. It is almost impossible to have even one representative in parliament from other group than above four. For me all of them should be closed in jails, but of course I am not willing to pay for their food or accommodation, they stole enough already.
Don't know if this post has any merit, but Gitarreo said he likes such stuff, and it is never enough of grumbling about situation in my country
At least you guys have more than two parties. Here we have one party that is a wholly owned subsidiary of Corporate America, the Republicans, and the other party, the Democrats, who are owned by Corporate America and trial lawyers.
Posted by: kahall Nov 6 2010, 04:52 AM
I am an official T.E.A. party member, and support Palin, O'Donnel, Angle and all of the conservative republicans. I knew there were going to be insulting comments left in this thread and I knew exactly who was going to leave them. He has done it before in another thread and it was as offensive then as it is now but I ignored it. I am not about to discuss the ridiculous points made in the posts since it is obviously a waste of time. I just spent the last 6 months talking to people who would listen and I learned real quick when to move on.
Yep, I just read through them again. OFFENSIVE! But nothing I haven't heard about a thousand times before and it has not stopped us. Carry on.
The progressives have done everything in their power to destroy the U.S.A. so I will do everything in my power to protect it. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are the only government documents standing between me and tyranny. Good luck convincing me and a whole lot of other people other wise.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 05:32 AM
Praetorian, this is more than simply a difference of political views. I can accept someone having a difference of opinion than me. I don't think someone is retarded because they have a different way of doing things.
This is about people wanting to do the same thing - i.e. have Republicans in charge - and expect different results. If you stick a fork in a toaster and it zaps your ass, would you do it again? Of course not. So what would you think of someone that would decide to do it again? You would probably seriously question their intelligence.
Before the Bush tax cuts were implemented, the Congressional Budget Office, which is bipartisan, warned it would cause a massive deficit. So what did the Republicans do? They rammed it through Congress with reconciliation. These tax cuts really didn't help the average American, I know because I am one. The Republicans started two wars we couldn't afford, further driving up the deficit. This is what left us with the massive deficit we have now.
So what is the new Republican agenda? More tax cuts and starting another war, this time with Iran. This same plan was a bad idea the last time the Republicans were in charge. This is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Thats retarded.
One last thing, I have no allegiance to any party, nor do I subscribe to any particular ideology. In just about every election I vote for either myself or Homer Simpson, simply as a vote of no confidence in the government. If these Tea Party people had any intelligence, they would also cast a vote of no confidence, and not vote for the SAME party that got us into this mess.
The majority of people get their information from the media, and unless you have friends in the legislative branch of government, you do as well. But by the media I assume you mean the Main Stream Media. I cancelled my cable television four years ago, and haven't watched it since. I get my news from news outlets that are non partisan, mainly foreign news agencies, such as British and Canadian news organizations.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 06:33 AM
Yep, I just read through them again. OFFENSIVE! But nothing I haven't heard about a thousand times before and it has not stopped us. Carry on.
The progressives have done everything in their power to destroy the U.S.A. so I will do everything in my power to protect it. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are the only government documents standing between me and tyranny. Good luck convincing me and a whole lot of other people other wise.
So you just decided to say what I said was "offensive" but refuse to say why? I'm not the only person reading this, so feel free to prove me wrong to all the international readers, I'm sure they want to hear what you have to say.
Other than calling the Tea Party movement retarded, what else have I said that was "offensive"? You are free to have your positions and I am free to have my opinions of them. You do support freedom of speech, right?
You say you and the Tea Party are for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but where were you when the Republicans suspended Habeas Corpus? (Article One, Section 9 of the Constitution) Where were you and the Tea Party when the Republicans implemented warrantless wiretapping? (violates Fourth Amendment) The Republicans did this not just to shadowy terrorists, but to our fellow Americans. Where were you and the Tea Party when the Republicans sent 5,000 young Americans to their death in Iraq? Another 25,000 also suffered severe injuries. Is this not tyranny?
So lets look at aspects of American history and what the Conservative and Progressive movements had to do with it.
1) The Constitution: Conceived by Progressives Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin, to name a few. Their idea that all men are created equal was far from conservative for their time. The conservatives wanted to maintain the nobility system. The separation of church and state was extraordinarily progressive for their time, the United States was the first country with out a state church.
2) Slavery: Conservatives wanted to maintain it, Progressives did away with it.
3) Social Security and Medicare: Conceived and implemented by Progressives, opposed by conservatives. You think those programs are bad? Go tell your grandmother you want to take away her Social Security and Medicare, I hope you can run faster than the boot she'll throw at you.
4) Civil Rights: Progressives gave black people the right to ride the bus, to drink at "white" water fountains, and the right to marry white people. Conservatives opposed it.
The United States has always been about moving forward, not the status quo. I can say with full confidence that the United States has been the most progressive nation in human history, and until recently, has never been about conservatism or the status quo.
My posts aren't meant to persuade any tea baggers. This is an international forum, and I would like to educate fellow members from around the world on issues in this country. The previous administration has destroyed our image and standing in the world, and I fully intend on promoting a positive image. We Americans share this world with other people, we don't own it.
This video below is a parody done by Saturday Night Live of a Sarah Palin interview. The cast of SNL didn't have to modify Sarah Palin words, this is almost EXACTLY what she said. Tell me, do you want this woman to be the most powerful person in the world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE2gE-VVjBI
Posted by: Praetorian Nov 6 2010, 01:06 PM
I really don't care what your motivation is for insulting people. But when you insult people openly on this forum, I take it to heart. I know you haven't been here all that long, but let me clear something up for you. This website and it's moderators do NOT tolerate insults or attacks on other members. It's what separates it from all the other forums on the net. If you want to have an argumentative discussion, try somewhere else. If you want to insult entire groups of people, GMC members and developmentally disabled people...then please, go elsewhere.
Posted by: tonymiro Nov 6 2010, 01:48 PM
Just for info guys we are monitoring this thread closely and will take appropriate action if necessary. At the moment the thread is fine imo albeit that some of it sails a bit close to the wind.
Tony - on behalf of the moderating team
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 05:43 PM
Yes, I'm quite sure the developmentally disabled be would be quite offended to have their intelligence compared to that of the tea baggers, but that wasn't what I was inferring. Seeing how you're a native English speaker you should know that using the word "retarded" doesn't always refer to the mentally challenged. I must add, the Tea Party doesn't really care about the mentally disabled, because they want to cut government programs that help American families with mentally challenged children.
If I was on here calling fundamentalist Muslim extremist retarded, none of you would be lifting a finger, in fact I would probably receive unanimous support. If I pointed out the inconsistencies and hypocrisy in Muslim extremist ideology, I would most likely be praised as a rationalist, and rightly so. Just like the Muslim extremist movement has become toxic to the Middle East, so to has the Tea Party to the US, albeit not nearly as deadly. How can we give legitimacy to a movement that is anti-intellectual and pro-war? The Tea Party supports people that want to stay at war and start another war Iran. They are indifferent to thought of people around the world being killed in war. Groups of people that support killing people in foreign wars deserve to be shunned.
I would like to thank Gary for being a true gentlemen. Out of all the people that disagreed with me, he has been the only person that actually made a case as to why he thought I was wrong, instead of just saying my post was offensive but not saying why. If the majority of the Tea Party was like him it probably wouldn't be such a repulsive movement.
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 6 2010, 06:31 PM
Mudbone, You seems to be intelligent, yet You trash the Tea party also because of it's free market ideas. Cutting ALL of social spendings is one of the key reasons how to heal economy and in result 90% of the population. You ask how can I say that taking away money from disabled children is right? Well it's pretty simple. The government doesn't have it's own income, it has to tax people in order to get money. So the government doesn't "give" anything to anyone, it just forces part of people to give part of their money to other people. For me this is an outrage, a theft, a huge crime. I am a 100% responsible for my own acts, and I want to be 0% responsible for the acts of others. If I won't have means to secure the future of my child, than I won't have a child - I SWEAR IT. It may sound that I have to high self esteem, but I think that I am quite a helpful guy, at least thats what all my friends say. I would help other people if I could, especially considering I don't have huge material needs on my own. But I hate to be forced to do so, if money is "the fruit" of my work, than I am the sole person in the whole world that should have anything to say about how this "fruit" should be used.
This above is the simple, yet for me "100% true" ideological reason, why social government is wrong. To this comes countless examples why this system works bad in the world. For example in my country "retirement system" is like this: in your whole life You pay approximately 160 000$ for Your retirement, and statistically You get 23 000$ out of it before You die. The rest - 137 000$ is wasted, nobody from ones family gets even a penny, all the rest is consumed by the bureaucracy. I would know how to spend this kind of money to secure my life better - for sure. Social government is such a pathetic system, that in Africa even some countries that have oil deposits are not earning cash on selling it. I know just few homo-sapiens that could go bankrupt while having a gold mine, but without free market it is quite easy...
So while racism or fanaticism is a reason to dislike a person, please turn on the bright side of the force - the free market! \m/
EDIT: eh I read my post, I am such a free market fanatic - darn... Still free market = cheaper guitars, so I win!
Posted by: Praetorian Nov 6 2010, 07:19 PM
No? Try using it as a slang term which you so eloquently do, to a person with a developmentally disabled family member and see how they react. Also, if you expect to be taken seriously in an adult discussion of politics, try not using terms like "tea baggers". Calling people ridiculous names does nothing more than make you sound immature and negates any validity your beliefs may contain.
Oh, one more thing. I'm not a Tea Party member.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 07:34 PM
This above is the simple, yet for me "100% true" ideological reason, why social government is wrong. To this comes countless examples why this system works bad in the world. For example in my country "retirement system" is like this: in your whole life You pay approximately 160 000$ for Your retirement, and statistically You get 23 000$ out of it before You die. The rest - 137 000$ is wasted, nobody from ones family gets even a penny, all the rest is consumed by the bureaucracy. I would know how to spend this kind of money to secure my life better - for sure. Social government is such a pathetic system, that in Africa even some countries that have oil deposits are not earning cash on selling it. I know just few homo-sapiens that could go bankrupt while having a gold mine, but without free market it is quite easy...
So while racism or fanaticism is a reason to dislike a person, please turn on the bright side of the force - the free market! \m/
I'm not that intelligent, just slightly smarter than a rock
I'm am not opposed to the free market, as I come from a family of career businessmen. But I do understand the need for there to be a cop on the block. EDIT: eh I read my post, I am such a free market fanatic - darn...
Still free market = cheaper guitars, so I win!I'm not that intelligent, just slightly smarter than a rock
I'm am not opposed to the free market, as I come from a family of career businessmen. But I do understand the need for there to be a cop on the block. Imagine an American Football game with no referee, the players would literally kill each other. Do you think its right for businesses to sell products that they know are defective? Thats pretty much what the banks did. Read this article and you'll see why sometimes we need regulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_ActYou live in a country that was once exclusively socialist, so I definitely understand your sentiment. Pure socialism is immoral and reprehensible. But having an exclusively free market system with no government is anarchy, Somalia has such a system. We need to deal with things on case to case basis, and not apply blanket ideology to everything. Nothing in life is completely black or white, peace is within the gray areas.
The fire department in the US used to be privately run, and you would have to buy insurance and then put a tag on your house verifying you paid. If you didn't pay then they would let your house burn down. What isn't immediately obvious is the fact that this is also dangerous to the neighbors that did pay their insurance, as that fire can easily spread to adjacent houses. So you can see why we need a fire department that isn't profit driven.
Whats upsetting is the fact that the government has become a separate entity from the people. In a true democratic republic people elect legislators to implement laws they want. We no longer view the government as something we choose it to be. However, in a democracy, we have exactly the government we deserve because we're the ones that chose it. I think the US should be like Brazil and make it mandatory to vote. Most people in the US don't vote, so sometimes we're stuck with a government only the minority wants.
Whats sad is the political climate has moved so far to the right that any moderate wishing to express their views seems like a Bolshevik commie. My beef with the Tea Party isn't really their views per se, but their hypocrisy, as previously mentioned, and their support for ignorant, uneducated, warmongering politicians.
I hate to come off as a political goon, because I spend most of my free time playing guitar, shooting guns, and drinking beer
Its just that most Americans that share my views never speak up, and I don't want the only voice of the US to be the radical right. Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 08:06 PM
Oh, one more thing. I'm not a Tea Party member.
I would not use that word towards the mentally handicapped. Just like I would not call a mentally handicapped person dumb, lame, or stupid. Are we supposed to remove those words from our language as well? Are you gonna tell me you have never used any of those words?
As far as the term "tea bagger", Tea Party members wear tea bags on their hats all the time, so I think its a fair term.
No matter how I put things, facts are facts. My eloquence, or lack thereof, has nothing to with the validity of my argument.
Posted by: kahall Nov 6 2010, 08:07 PM
Other than calling the Tea Party movement retarded, what else have I said that was "offensive"? You are free to have your positions and I am free to have my opinions of them. You do support freedom of speech, right?
You say you and the Tea Party are for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but where were you when the Republicans suspended Habeas Corpus? (Article One, Section 9 of the Constitution) Where were you and the Tea Party when the Republicans implemented warrantless wiretapping? (violates Fourth Amendment) The Republicans did this not just to shadowy terrorists, but to our fellow Americans. Where were you and the Tea Party when the Republicans sent 5,000 young Americans to their death in Iraq? Another 25,000 also suffered severe injuries. Is this not tyranny?
So lets look at aspects of American history and what the Conservative and Progressive movements had to do with it.
1) The Constitution: Conceived by Progressives Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin, to name a few. Their idea that all men are created equal was far from conservative for their time. The conservatives wanted to maintain the nobility system. The separation of church and state was extraordinarily progressive for their time, the United States was the first country with out a state church.
2) Slavery: Conservatives wanted to maintain it, Progressives did away with it.
3) Social Security and Medicare: Conceived and implemented by Progressives, opposed by conservatives. You think those programs are bad? Go tell your grandmother you want to take away her Social Security and Medicare, I hope you can run faster than the boot she'll throw at you.
4) Civil Rights: Progressives gave black people the right to ride the bus, to drink at "white" water fountains, and the right to marry white people. Conservatives opposed it.
The United States has always been about moving forward, not the status quo. I can say with full confidence that the United States has been the most progressive nation in human history, and until recently, has never been about conservatism or the status quo.
My posts aren't meant to persuade any tea baggers. This is an international forum, and I would like to educate fellow members from around the world on issues in this country. The previous administration has destroyed our image and standing in the world, and I fully intend on promoting a positive image. We Americans share this world with other people, we don't own it.
This video below is a parody done by Saturday Night Live of a Sarah Palin interview. The cast of SNL didn't have to modify Sarah Palin words, this is almost EXACTLY what she said. Tell me, do you want this woman to be the most powerful person in the world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE2gE-VVjBI
Your entire post is just silly and full of your own views and not based on any facts at all. I am not going to go through your post of rewritten history and argue it line by line because it is a waste of time like I said before. You have strong feelings albeit wrong, and you will never ever be convinced otherwise so why bother.
Your use of the word teabagger or tea bagger is disgusting and is not educating anyone about anything except that you like to call people names. I know liberals like to say we chose the name but that is not true. It's T.E.A. (Taxed Enough Already) Party. The Teabagger name was given to us be the liberal media which can't stand us so they had to do something to belittle us with a sexually derogatory name but of course you already knew that but used it anyway.
I will make an exception and address your progressives stopped slavery which is BS. A simple youtube vid is all it takes to show you how it really went down so it takes away very little of my guitar time.
Posted by: kaznie_NL Nov 6 2010, 08:30 PM
Mudbone, first of all (disclaimer poo....) I haven't researched American politics and I will not, so I'm not in any way talking about your political views in this post. Second of all, I think you have the right to discuss politics and I think you do it prety well. Please try to use the arguments raised by the oposing 750 GMCers, and not just crush in against 'em, that might be exactly what the politicians do in your country, the reasen for you to have no faith in politics.
Now my question
: Why don't you vote? I personally can't stand people who do not vote and then blame politicians. Not voting for me is giving up, it's running away from the problem. Could you explain me?For us Dutch peoples, Americans are hard to understand. Hope you can respect that.
again, I believe this discussion should be here just fine and please mudbone, keep discussing, but be progressive in your discussion and don't insult. Just say T.E.A instead of teabag, it's still the same! same goes for 'retard'.... You're a fair discussor.
Mods: please, please, please, don't ban, kick or in any way block the thread, just PM the people who might be insulting. These are grown-ups.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 08:33 PM
Your use of the word teabagger or tea bagger is disgusting and is not educating anyone about anything except that you like to call people names. I know liberals like to say we chose the name but that is not true. It's T.E.A. (Taxed Enough Already) Party. The Teabagger name was given to us be the liberal media which can't stand us so they had to do something to belittle us with a sexually derogatory name but of course you already knew that but used it anyway.
I will make an exception and address your progressives stopped slavery which is BS. A simple youtube vid is all it takes to show you how it really went down so it takes away very little of my guitar time.
I think you're confusing progressives with Democrats, and vice versa. You're absolutely right the Democrats were pro slavery, thats a correct statement. But they were conservative Democrats, not progressives. Actually, the Republicans at that time were the progressives. In fact the Republicans have a long streak of progressivism. Eisenhower, who built the largest highway system in the world, was a Republican. Can you imagine a conservative today proposing the same thing?
Up until 1964 the majority of the South was conservative Democrat, then blacks got their rights, and thats when the big shift to the Republican party happened. Back in the 19th century conservatives controlled the Democratic party, and now they have hijacked the Republican party.
As I have said earlier, tea party members embraced the term tea bagger, so its fair game.
Again you have said my statements were incorrect, but refuse to say why.
Posted by: Praetorian Nov 6 2010, 08:49 PM
When I was young and immature, yes. Now that I am an adult, I carry myself with more dignity and class.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 09:01 PM
Now my question
: Why don't you vote? I personally can't stand people who do not vote and then blame politicians. Not voting for me is giving up, it's running away from the problem. Could you explain me?For us Dutch peoples, Americans are hard to understand. Hope you can respect that.
again, I believe this discussion should be here just fine and please mudbone, keep discussing, but be progressive in your discussion and don't insult. Just say T.E.A instead of teabag, it's still the same! same goes for 'retard'.... You're a fair discussor.
Mods: please, please, please, don't ban, kick or in any way block the thread, just PM the people who might be insulting. These are grown-ups.
I know I come off as blunt and cocky, but there is a reason for that. Moderates in this country have become so timid in the face of the conservative movement that they have no chance of getting anything they want. Not me. I fully intend on standing up to conservative bullies, wherever, whenever. Well, except when its cuts into my guitar time, which this is kinda doing right now
As far as the name calling, nothing I have said is outrageously over the top insulting. I have not directed any names to any particular member. But the Tea Party movement as a whole? Absolutely. Extremism in any shape or form is not entitled to the respect that is given to reasonable causes.
As far as voting, I do vote. I have voted in just about every election, most of the time for myself. When I go to the polls and I don't find any politician I think would serve my interests, I vote for myself. I do this as a sign of no confidence in the government.
So far no one, other than Gary, has raised any opposing arguments. All I have gotten so far was, "Ya... you suck... because you do."
I didn't know their were 750 members opposing this
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 6 2010, 09:37 PM
If there are no good candidates than it is very bad idea to vote for any of them.
The reason why I say so is this - if You give someone Your vote, it doesn't matter what were Your feelings about it. The person now represents You. If 50% of people with right to vote do vote, those politics/<insert something bad> can say that they rule by the mandate of half of the nation. It doesn't matter that not a single party had for example more than 30% of the votes, so in fact they know for sure that only 15% of population supports them, they still can lie that they rule because people want it. I don't want any half brained thief rule in my name. If only 10% of the population would vote, than such stupid talk about the will of the people would not be valid.
Of course the ideal democracy is a one where everyone vote, and what is even more important everybody know why he votes for certain party/person. But this is more utopia-like than a linage of only-wise-kings. Democracy is a system where sheep decide which wolf will eat them. A typical voter has no other idea about the candidates than their look, sexual life, religion or who their chaps vote for (they vote based on their favorite TV channel, with provide info about the look, sex... etc.). Thats why I support the idea of limited citizenship, searching a way how to prevent people without political knowledge from deciding about anything. In fact simple things like putting a question like "what VAT stands for" would most probably exclude votes of quite a big part of "citizens".
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 09:44 PM
The reason why I say so is this - if You give someone Your vote, it doesn't matter what were Your feelings about it. The person now represents You. If 50% of people with right to vote do vote, those politics/<insert something bad> can say that they rule by the mandate of half of the nation. It doesn't matter that not a single party had for example more than 30% of the votes, so in fact they know for sure that only 15% of population supports them, they still can lie that they rule because people want it. I don't want any half brained thief rule in my name. If only 10% of the population would vote, than such stupid talk about the will of the people would not be valid.
Of course the ideal democracy is a one where everyone vote, and what is even more important everybody know why he votes for certain party/person. But this is more utopia-like than a linage of only-wise-kings. Democracy is a system where sheep decide which wolf will eat them. A typical voter has no other idea about the candidates than their look, sexual life, religion or who their chaps vote for (they vote based on their favorite TV channel, with provide info about the look, sex... etc.). Thats why I support the idea of limited citizenship, searching a way how to prevent people without political knowledge from deciding about anything. In fact simple things like putting a question like "what VAT stands for" would most probably exclude votes of quite a big part of "citizens".
I believe the best society in the world is the one the indigenous tribes of the Amazon have. Just lie around all day, licking poisonous bull frogs and making love
But there'll be no guitar so I guess that won't work Edit: You're idea of limited citizenship is actually quite brilliant
Posted by: thefireball Nov 6 2010, 10:34 PM
That's a great point.
When I don't see any people worth voting for, I just don't vote. I only vote for those who I believe will help further my country for the good. Posted by: Mudbone Nov 6 2010, 10:45 PM
When I don't see any people worth voting for, I just don't vote. I only vote for those who I believe will help further my country for the good. Vote for yourself, you seem like a cool dude with some good riffs
Imagine, fireball rocking the Senate with some drop C riffage
Posted by: Gary Nov 7 2010, 07:20 AM
[quote name='Mudbone' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:09 AM' post='504164']
Sorry dude, if someone supports Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell or Sharon Angel, they are retarded. Only a fool follows a fool. None of them have ever said anything of substance. Are you seriously going to tell me the three of them are intelligent and are capable of leading this country?..........
Mudbone,
I debated as to whether I should even respond, I have been too busy with work and I will admit I was put off by the name calling etc. Unfortunately (for me) when I hit the part about healthcare I could not help but to take the bait…so here goes.
For starters, the international viewers of this post should note the term “tea bagger” is a lewd reference that progressive liberals have assigned to tea party members. It refers to a sexual practice that is too graphic to describe here but Google it if you like. MB, I guess you will have to trust me when I say I am far from a being a prude and I am not a tea party member; however I do find this term offensive and seriously immature. I guess it’s my hope that you are a bigger man than this so let’s please keep this clean.
Upon reading your post I noticed you have an inclination for speaking in terms of absolutes, some examples:
• Neither Sarah Palin, Christine O’Donnell, or Sharon Angle have ever said anything of substance
• Tea party members are a bunch of racist rednecks
• Tea party members are pissed because a black man is president
• In America it’s okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent
• The tea party wants to rip insurance benefits out from underneath dying children
Maybe I am reading you wrong, however I am concerned that you believe anyone who differs from your opinion is either;
• Retarded
• Racist against black people
• An islamaphobe
• A mean spirited wretch who somehow derives pleasure from children suffering
That’s one hell of an interesting outlook! 
By the way, it wasn’t long ago in the US when throwing the race card at white folks who disagreed with your viewpoint was effective, but thankfully that day has passed. I think the vast majority of Americans have reached the point where they feel free to be critical of a public person, such as President Obama, and not buckle when someone screams racism. Interestingly, the tea party meeting I attended had a black couple there, and if I remember correctly one of the controlling members of the tea party is a black man. Perhaps these folks missed the memo
You wanted to know if I would vote for one of the candidates you listed, I guess it’s possible that I would support Palin in a general election. I do believe she is shy in the intelligence area however her experience actually running something is meaningful to me (she ran the state of Alaska well, check the numbers). I’ll further admit that her willingness to smack down cronyism within her own party while serving as governor impressed me. I will tip my hat to any politician that acts in this manner as it’s a rarity these days.
You wrote “Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican”
This is a carefully crafted statement that conveniently leaves out where we are now and where we are headed. I will let the chart below speak for itself. Republicans had control over congress until 2006 and Bush held office until 2008. Look at what happens to the deficit after 2006 and looks where it’s headed. Obama created the massive debt, not Bush. 
Your information regarding the US health care is actually what drew me in. I take issue with your statement that “Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world”" as it’s no where close to accurate. Can I ask you to provide me a source for this information? If it was from the WHO report then my recollection is that the US ranked around 40 out of about 200 countries (that is far from the "worst"). If WHO was the source then that report is widely recognized as a divisively skewed measurement of our system because the rankings were based upon offerings of socialized medicine, of which I am thankful we (wait for it….big surprise coming) do not have. I could on for days here as I have a fair amount of knowledge about our health care system. If you want to provide data and debate this further perhaps we can learn something from each other.
You asked Where were the tea party members when Bush created the DHS? I read a lot of economic papers and there were actually tons of fiscally conservative people against this. It’s easy to criticize the creation of this dept however its undeniable that it has served a purpose. Since its inception we have not suffered another internal terrorist strike from the Islamic radicals that continually threaten us. I am a seriously fiscal conservative individual, am I happy we are blowing tons of dough on this?...no. However I also am not happy that it’s probably a necessary evil in this day and age.
As for the ground zero mosque, I think any educated person in the US acknowledges the legal right to build the mosque. Perhaps more importantly, we also recognize they have the right NOT to build the mosque at that specific location. The vast majority of families of the people murdered in those towers do not want a mosque there, knowing that I question Rauf’s motives for wanting to put it there. Do you do something just because you can? I can do a lot of things that I choose not to, based on my own moral principals or concern of infringing on others feelings. My personal feeling is that Rauf is putting being a Muslim ahead of being an American, and to me that just dosen't fly.
Thanks for the offer for me to try Somalia. I live a fortunate life and done pretty well for myself in the US. I have traveled the world and seen a lot (ever been to a hospital in socialist or communist country?) and for my money nothing beats the good ole USA. And the thing is I love America pretty much the way she is. So instead of fighting the Somali pirates I will remain here and fight the “change”.
Peace,
Gary
Posted by: N4085B Nov 7 2010, 08:16 AM
Here's a clip, where Yngwie sums it up pretty well. And this from a guy that immigrated to the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZiWIdgLS-Y
I was born in Germany but grew up in the states. My job takes me all over the world, and I see it first hand what its like in other countries. Great people and cultures for sure...but one common denominator is that more and bigger govt is NOT the answer....it just creates more bureaucracy/bureacrats who produce nothing...except more drag on the respective economy/society in the form of more regulation and taxation. I'm more of a Libertarian in my personal leanings ( I don't agree with everything they espouse however). I actually blame both the dems AND reps for not doing anything to try and reel in an ever expanding govt for the past 40-50 yrs. It seems that they just take turns screwing the american public and nothing really gets accomplished except the wishes of the lobbyists and attorneys. I think the Tea Party is just a reflection of that frustration....after all, the folks in Washington are supposed to work for us (we the people) not the other way around.
Posted by: kahall Nov 7 2010, 01:47 PM
Actually, the Republicans at that time were the progressives. In fact the Republicans have a long streak of progressivism. Eisenhower, who built the largest highway system in the world, was a Republican. Can you imagine a conservative today proposing the same thing?
Up until 1964 the majority of the South was conservative Democrat, then blacks got their rights, and thats when the big shift to the Republican party happened.[..]
Not true. Meaning you do not know what you are talking about. Again, nice try at rewriting history, but I know you didn't actually do it yourself but read and learned that falsehood on some lefty website.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 7 2010, 02:50 PM
Kahall, you can't just say something is not true and not say why. It has become quite apparent your knowledge of terminology is quite limited, as you clearly do not know what the word progressive means.
So if Eisenhower wasn't a Republican, what was he? If he didn't initiate the construction of the highway system, who did?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZiWIdgLS-Y
I was born in Germany but grew up in the states. My job takes me all over the world, and I see it first hand what its like in other countries. Great people and cultures for sure...but one common denominator is that more and bigger govt is NOT the answer....it just creates more bureaucracy/bureacrats who produce nothing...except more drag on the respective economy/society in the form of more regulation and taxation. I'm more of a Libertarian in my personal leanings ( I don't agree with everything they espouse however). I actually blame both the dems AND reps for not doing anything to try and reel in an ever expanding govt for the past 40-50 yrs. It seems that they just take turns screwing the american public and nothing really gets accomplished except the wishes of the lobbyists and attorneys. I think the Tea Party is just a reflection of that frustration....after all, the folks in Washington are supposed to work for us (we the people) not the other way around.
+1 I agree with just about everything you said.
Posted by: Praetorian Nov 7 2010, 04:19 PM
I debated as to whether I should even respond, I have been too busy with work and I will admit I was put off by the name calling etc. Unfortunately (for me) when I hit the part about healthcare I could not help but to take the bait…so here goes.
For starters, the international viewers of this post should note the term “tea bagger” is a lewd reference that progressive liberals have assigned to tea party members. It refers to a sexual practice that is too graphic to describe here but Google it if you like. MB, I guess you will have to trust me when I say I am far from a being a prude and I am not a tea party member; however I do find this term offensive and seriously immature. I guess it’s my hope that you are a bigger man than this so let’s please keep this clean.
Upon reading your post I noticed you have an inclination for speaking in terms of absolutes, some examples:
• Neither Sarah Palin, Christine O’Donnell, or Sharon Angle have ever said anything of substance
• Tea party members are a bunch of racist rednecks
• Tea party members are pissed because a black man is president
• In America it’s okay to be overtly racist towards people of Middle Eastern descent
• The tea party wants to rip insurance benefits out from underneath dying children
Maybe I am reading you wrong, however I am concerned that you believe anyone who differs from your opinion is either;
• Retarded
• Racist against black people
• An islamaphobe
• A mean spirited wretch who somehow derives pleasure from children suffering
That’s one hell of an interesting outlook!
By the way, it wasn’t long ago in the US when throwing the race card at white folks who disagreed with your viewpoint was effective, but thankfully that day has passed. I think the vast majority of Americans have reached the point where they feel free to be critical of a public person, such as President Obama, and not buckle when someone screams racism. Interestingly, the tea party meeting I attended had a black couple there, and if I remember correctly one of the controlling members of the tea party is a black man. Perhaps these folks missed the memo
You wanted to know if I would vote for one of the candidates you listed, I guess it’s possible that I would support Palin in a general election. I do believe she is shy in the intelligence area however her experience actually running something is meaningful to me (she ran the state of Alaska well, check the numbers). I’ll further admit that her willingness to smack down cronyism within her own party while serving as governor impressed me. I will tip my hat to any politician that acts in this manner as it’s a rarity these days.
You wrote “Bush inherited a surplus and left us with the most massive deficit in human history, and for the majority of his time in office both branches of the legislator were Republican”
This is a carefully crafted statement that conveniently leaves out where we are now and where we are headed. I will let the chart below speak for itself. Republicans had control over congress until 2006 and Bush held office until 2008. Look at what happens to the deficit after 2006 and looks where it’s headed. Obama created the massive debt, not Bush.
Your information regarding the US health care is actually what drew me in. I take issue with your statement that “Our healthcare system is one of the worst in the industrialized world”" as it’s no where close to accurate. Can I ask you to provide me a source for this information? If it was from the WHO report then my recollection is that the US ranked around 40 out of about 200 countries (that is far from the "worst"). If WHO was the source then that report is widely recognized as a divisively skewed measurement of our system because the rankings were based upon offerings of socialized medicine, of which I am thankful we (wait for it….big surprise coming) do not have. I could on for days here as I have a fair amount of knowledge about our health care system. If you want to provide data and debate this further perhaps we can learn something from each other.
You asked Where were the tea party members when Bush created the DHS? I read a lot of economic papers and there were actually tons of fiscally conservative people against this. It’s easy to criticize the creation of this dept however its undeniable that it has served a purpose. Since its inception we have not suffered another internal terrorist strike from the Islamic radicals that continually threaten us. I am a seriously fiscal conservative individual, am I happy we are blowing tons of dough on this?...no. However I also am not happy that it’s probably a necessary evil in this day and age.
As for the ground zero mosque, I think any educated person in the US acknowledges the legal right to build the mosque. Perhaps more importantly, we also recognize they have the right NOT to build the mosque at that specific location. The vast majority of families of the people murdered in those towers do not want a mosque there, knowing that I question Rauf’s motives for wanting to put it there. Do you do something just because you can? I can do a lot of things that I choose not to, based on my own moral principals or concern of infringing on others feelings. My personal feeling is that Rauf is putting being a Muslim ahead of being an American, and to me that just dosen't fly.
Thanks for the offer for me to try Somalia. I live a fortunate life and done pretty well for myself in the US. I have traveled the world and seen a lot (ever been to a hospital in socialist or communist country?) and for my money nothing beats the good ole USA. And the thing is I love America pretty much the way she is. So instead of fighting the Somali pirates I will remain here and fight the “change”.
Peace,
Gary
Best post in this entire thread, hands down.
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 7 2010, 04:20 PM
you can't either
you can find an opinion on both sides from something that happened that long ago,but fastforward,was it not the republicans that marched with Martin Luther King Jr.against the democrates,lead by strom thurman--who was a recruter for the kkk in the sixties
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 7 2010, 07:23 PM
*Just a quick disclaimer, this will be my last post for a while, as I do not have the time to debate multiple people at once.
Gary,
Many Tea Party members called themselves tea baggers before it became widely apparent that it also has a negative connotation, and many embrace the term by affixing tea bags to their hats, so that term is fair game.
When I said Palin, O'Donnell and Angle never said anything of substance, is because they never get into specifics. They say they want to cut spending, but never say how. They espouse ideology, but never specify the implementation of such ideology.
- Not all tea party members are racists rednecks, but the majority of the ones I have come across in the South are. You live in California, not exactly a bastion of hillbillies. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is right on the border of South Carolina - This is the deep south. The demographics here are a little different than in California. California is multicultural, so people are less likely to be racist. Other than in the heart of Charlotte, there isn't much diversity here. Many southerners have a low opinion of EVERYBODY, included northerners and people from the west coast. Come live here for a few months and I dare you to tell me otherwise.
- Tea Party members are pissed that a black man is president, just look at the signs they carry at their rallies, "Down with the Kenyan" "Obama is a foreigner" "No to Kenyan Economics" and so on and so forth.
- In America it is totally acceptable to be racist towards Middle Eastern decent. People always joke to Arabs, "You're not gonna blow us up are you?" Or they mock the Arabic language by making guttural sounds. Can you imagine if you walked up to one of your black friends and said, "You're not going to rob me are you?" Or starting to talk in Ebonics?
At one of John McCain's rallies someone shouted, "He's a Muslim!" referring to Obama of course. To which McCain replied, "No he isn't, he's a good person." Can't a Muslim be a good person? Just imagine if that guy screamed "Obama's a Jew" You would never hear the end of McCain's apologies. If you decide to answer anything from this post, answer this: Do you think its okay for a Muslim to be president?
Then of course, there are the movies and tv shows. For decades Arabs have been vilified and demonized. Check out this video by Jack Shaheen called "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-Bbz_TBMc"
- The Tea Party opposed the whole healthcare bill, which included the parts that were intended to protect children. NOT ONE Tea Party candidate ever argued in favor of fixing things in our healthcare system that were harmful towards children. So, they were against all of it, and were for absolutely none of it.
Your use of ad hominem is quite astounding. Just because I have a low opinion of the Tea Party doesn't mean I have a low opinion of everybody. If you want diminish to my arguments you're going to have to find a better of doing it other than just writing me off as person that just hates everybody and everything. Just because I said Tea Party candidates are against laws protecting children doesn't mean I think they're bloodthirsty witches. Again, another overzealous use of ad hominem on your part.
I never used the race card with people I disagree with, I called a particular movement racist. This also another use of ad hominem on your part. There may be a few black people in the Tea Party, but I think we can both agree that the vast majority of the Tea Party is white. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is hardly representative of the country as a whole.
Well I'm glad we can agree that Palin is lacking intelligence But she wasn't exactly the greatest governor. She cut and run just after two years in office. When things started to get tough on her she resigned, not something a good leader would do. Plus Alaska is a pretty easy state to run. Only 500,000 people live there and revenue from oil pays for everything. People in Alaska actually get paid by the government to live there. The only thing she had to do was not mess things up, and she couldn't even handle that. She also resigned because the millions shes making now would have conflicted with her role as governor. I'm not knocking her for going for the money, in fact I would probably do the same thing. But is a clear sign she is just after the money and is in no way shape or form fit to be the leader of the free world. The president of the United States MUST know geography, as we have bases and interests all over the world. Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite before the Iraq war, and look how catastrophic that lack of knowledge turned out to be.
As far as the deficit, you and I may not be on the same yard line, but we're in the same field, so I don't feel the need to address this.
Its funny how your disagreement with me about healthcare actually agrees with what I said. I said our healthcare system ranks lowest in the industrialized world, and you said it ranks 40 out of the total 200 countries in the world, which still makes both of our statements factually correct. This is because not all countries in the world are industrialized. Compared to other advanced countries, we rank close to the bottom. I'm not saying the actual care that administered is bad, I'm talking about the whole system and how effective it is at keep all Americans healthy. Also, you can't dismiss socialized healthcare if its effective. There are many Germans on this website and I'm sure they can tell you that while their healthcare system may not be perfect, it works a lot better than what we got here. I'm quite sure their system is a hybrid of private and social healthcare, if any Germans are reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Just because something is socialized doesn't make it bad per se. One more thing, Sharon Angle, the anti-government-healthcare candidate, gets her health care from... are you ready for this... the Federal Employee Health Program, provided courtesy of the Federal Government. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.
There were fiscal conservatives that were against the DHS, that is true, but they weren't the Tea Party. (Just to clear something up real quick, my beef isn't with fiscal conservatism, in fact I hold moderate fiscal conservative views.) You know what would save an enormous amount of money by cutting spending? Ending wars, and ending support for Middle Eastern dictators and Israel. This is where I agree with Ron Paul 100%. We will spend less and give no reason for terrorist to come over here and blow things up. But this is something you never hear from conservatives.
The ground zero mosque isn't even going to be a mosque, its a cultural center that will have a prayer room. But even if it was a mosque, there is nothing objectionable to having one there. Not all Muslims are terrorists, in fact the vast majority are peaceful people like you or me. Muslim Americans also died in the 9/11 attacks as well, are they less human than everyone else? By telling specific Muslims they can't build a mosque there is accusing them of having ties to terrorists, that is unfair.
Anyways Gary, I can tell you spent time doing research into these things, instead of just following what you are told. You and I may have fundamental differences, But I hope you don't take my scorn for the Tea Party as a whole too personally. You seem like a respectable gentleman, hopefully you and will get along in something else we're both passionate about: Guitars
you can find an opinion on both sides from something that happened that long ago,but fastforward,was it not the republicans that marched with Martin Luther King Jr.against the democrates,lead by strom thurman--who was a recruter for the kkk in the sixties
I didn't say something was false but not say why, i don't know where you're getting that from.
What I said isn't opinion, its fact. I said which people belonged to what party, there is nothing opinionated about that. If you read my post closely you would have seen that I mentioned that the Democrats were conservative up until 1964, and those conservatives did include the likes of Strom Thurman. Up until the last two decades, the Republicans were a respectable party, but not anymore.
Posted by: Gitarrero Nov 7 2010, 07:39 PM
Just wanted to tell you that you were right about the german healthcare system
It is not perfect, then again, which system is?
I already said it, but it is incredibly interesting to read all you guys' comments and opinions. I just wanna remind you that you shouldn't take political views too seriously on this website, let's all try to get along as that what we are here: guitar enthusiasts.
Christian
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 7 2010, 08:06 PM
It is not perfect, then again, which system is?
I already said it, but it is incredibly interesting to read all you guys' comments and opinions. I just wanna remind you that you shouldn't take political views too seriously on this website, let's all try to get along as that what we are here: guitar enthusiasts.
Christian
Thanks Christian
You're right, this is a guitar website, we come on here to get away from life for a moment.
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 7 2010, 09:27 PM
You're right, this is a guitar website, we come on here to get away from life for a moment.if we are ranked forty in the world in health care, why then do people travel to the us for health care .
the studies you cite are tainted
Posted by: kahall Nov 7 2010, 09:46 PM
So if Eisenhower wasn't a Republican, what was he? If he didn't initiate the construction of the highway system, who did?
First. I can do whatever I like.
I absolutely know what the word progressive means. I have been following politics since my forebears evolved from Precambrian slime mold in a Gondwana tide pool.
I was not denying Eisenhower being a republican.
but this:
That is nothing but revisionist history from unicorn land.
I went back and re-read some of your posts. They are straight out of Daily KOS, Democraticunderground and other bottom feeder sewer type sites. You can't post that hatred on site like this with intelligent people observing and not get called out on it by more than one person.
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 7 2010, 10:33 PM
I absolutely know what the word progressive means. I have been following politics since my forebears evolved from Precambrian slime mold in a Gondwana tide pool.
I was not denying Eisenhower being a republican.
but this:
That is nothing but revisionist history from unicorn land.
I went back and re-read some of your posts. They are straight out of Daily KOS, Democraticunderground and other bottom feeder sewer type sites. You can't post that hatred on site like this with intelligent people observing and not get called out on it by more than one person.
You have yet to say how I am wrong about anything, you just say I'm wrong I'm and then dismiss me a damn liberal. If thats what you like to then do it to your hearts content, just nobody is going to take you seriously.
And by the way, I have never been to any of those sites. I am fully capable of forming my own opinions on things.
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 7 2010, 11:48 PM
And by the way, I have never been to any of those sites. I am fully capable of forming my own opinions on things.
then were did you get your facts,,if it is reputible ,i can read with an open mind
what doyou guys think about these items
1 significantly cut government spending
2 stop all tax increases
3 defend our nation's security and stop bowing to foreign dictators
4 put in elected officials that will reign in government abuses in all branches of government
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 7 2010, 11:56 PM
I don't read too many US based news sites, because I feel they all have a horse in this race, be it liberal or conservative. The few that I do read are pretty much middle of the road, like Newsweek and McClatchy.
The international sites I frequent are the British newspapers The Guardian and The Telegraph and also the BBC. Every now and then I read news on the Canadian CBC.
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 8 2010, 02:15 AM
The international sites I frequent are the British newspapers The Guardian and The Telegraph and also the BBC. Every now and then I read news on the Canadian CBC.
Mudbone---please feel free to p.m. any links where you get your info
I will read with an open mind , but realize that i have been a registered independant for ten years and lean a lot towards liberterian moto "When in doubt-side towards freedom".I am not interested in someones opinion,i like just the fax maam ,such as ,a reason Obama concerns me is that he said that if we don't pass his stimulus that unemployement will rise above 9 and if we do pass it it will stay under 8.
remember the facts ,so why has he not been made to answer this question as unemployement has been around 10 percent .also there is still , 400 billion in the stimulus not spent , seeing how every dollar the government spends 40 percent is borrowed -from my kids and yours
and still from the white house----nothing and i think this is what the elections were about i did not vote republican for there past plans i voted for new republicans with the message to bring this government spending to a halt, and if they don't , i will vote them out . my plan is to keep changing government till they get the idea
In a earlier thread you said that there will never be a perfect health care system and you are right , but that does not make it right to take costitutional freedoms away from people to do it
i encourage you -if you do have an open mind to visit http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11310&news_iv_ctrl=-1 as this is the only way to get the power away from washington and deliver it back to the people where it belongs
peace
Posted by: Karl-ss Nov 8 2010, 05:00 AM
All I have to say is Socialism and it's cousins. It works, look at Norway.. Nuff said. Also don't worry I wont use nazi germany even if they had a excel- *rest of comment removed due to PC liberals controlling the interwebs*.. But ya, Liberals, republicans.. They are both utterly backwards and awkward as *Insert rude word*. But again, these americans are so whiny about their taxes.. No taxes eh? Well that just means a few people will live filthy rich and the rest on the streets. But thats aaawright! Because thats the way of nature.. Evolution eh? Also inb4 the whole "YOU DONT UNDERSTAND" It is 5 at night here and I am feeling silly.. Oh and I like high taxes. :3
Gary,
Many Tea Party members called themselves tea baggers before it became widely apparent that it also has a negative connotation, and many embrace the term by affixing tea bags to their hats, so that term is fair game.
When I said Palin, O'Donnell and Angle never said anything of substance, is because they never get into specifics. They say they want to cut spending, but never say how. They espouse ideology, but never specify the implementation of such ideology.
- Not all tea party members are racists rednecks, but the majority of the ones I have come across in the South are. You live in California, not exactly a bastion of hillbillies. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is right on the border of South Carolina - This is the deep south. The demographics here are a little different than in California. California is multicultural, so people are less likely to be racist. Other than in the heart of Charlotte, there isn't much diversity here. Many southerners have a low opinion of EVERYBODY, included northerners and people from the west coast. Come live here for a few months and I dare you to tell me otherwise.
- Tea Party members are pissed that a black man is president, just look at the signs they carry at their rallies, "Down with the Kenyan" "Obama is a foreigner" "No to Kenyan Economics" and so on and so forth.
- In America it is totally acceptable to be racist towards Middle Eastern decent. People always joke to Arabs, "You're not gonna blow us up are you?" Or they mock the Arabic language by making guttural sounds. Can you imagine if you walked up to one of your black friends and said, "You're not going to rob me are you?" Or starting to talk in Ebonics?
At one of John McCain's rallies someone shouted, "He's a Muslim!" referring to Obama of course. To which McCain replied, "No he isn't, he's a good person." Can't a Muslim be a good person? Just imagine if that guy screamed "Obama's a Jew" You would never hear the end of McCain's apologies. If you decide to answer anything from this post, answer this: Do you think its okay for a Muslim to be president?
Then of course, there are the movies and tv shows. For decades Arabs have been vilified and demonized. Check out this video by Jack Shaheen called "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-Bbz_TBMc"
- The Tea Party opposed the whole healthcare bill, which included the parts that were intended to protect children. NOT ONE Tea Party candidate ever argued in favor of fixing things in our healthcare system that were harmful towards children. So, they were against all of it, and were for absolutely none of it.
Your use of ad hominem is quite astounding. Just because I have a low opinion of the Tea Party doesn't mean I have a low opinion of everybody. If you want diminish to my arguments you're going to have to find a better of doing it other than just writing me off as person that just hates everybody and everything. Just because I said Tea Party candidates are against laws protecting children doesn't mean I think they're bloodthirsty witches. Again, another overzealous use of ad hominem on your part.
I never used the race card with people I disagree with, I called a particular movement racist. This also another use of ad hominem on your part. There may be a few black people in the Tea Party, but I think we can both agree that the vast majority of the Tea Party is white. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is hardly representative of the country as a whole.
Well I'm glad we can agree that Palin is lacking intelligence
But she wasn't exactly the greatest governor. She cut and run just after two years in office. When things started to get tough on her she resigned, not something a good leader would do. Plus Alaska is a pretty easy state to run. Only 500,000 people live there and revenue from oil pays for everything. People in Alaska actually get paid by the government to live there. The only thing she had to do was not mess things up, and she couldn't even handle that. She also resigned because the millions shes making now would have conflicted with her role as governor. I'm not knocking her for going for the money, in fact I would probably do the same thing. But is a clear sign she is just after the money and is in no way shape or form fit to be the leader of the free world. The president of the United States MUST know geography, as we have bases and interests all over the world. Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite before the Iraq war, and look how catastrophic that lack of knowledge turned out to be.As far as the deficit, you and I may not be on the same yard line, but we're in the same field, so I don't feel the need to address this.
Its funny how your disagreement with me about healthcare actually agrees with what I said. I said our healthcare system ranks lowest in the industrialized world, and you said it ranks 40 out of the total 200 countries in the world, which still makes both of our statements factually correct. This is because not all countries in the world are industrialized. Compared to other advanced countries, we rank close to the bottom. I'm not saying the actual care that administered is bad, I'm talking about the whole system and how effective it is at keep all Americans healthy. Also, you can't dismiss socialized healthcare if its effective. There are many Germans on this website and I'm sure they can tell you that while their healthcare system may not be perfect, it works a lot better than what we got here. I'm quite sure their system is a hybrid of private and social healthcare, if any Germans are reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Just because something is socialized doesn't make it bad per se. One more thing, Sharon Angle, the anti-government-healthcare candidate, gets her health care from... are you ready for this... the Federal Employee Health Program, provided courtesy of the Federal Government. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.
There were fiscal conservatives that were against the DHS, that is true, but they weren't the Tea Party. (Just to clear something up real quick, my beef isn't with fiscal conservatism, in fact I hold moderate fiscal conservative views.) You know what would save an enormous amount of money by cutting spending? Ending wars, and ending support for Middle Eastern dictators and Israel. This is where I agree with Ron Paul 100%. We will spend less and give no reason for terrorist to come over here and blow things up. But this is something you never hear from conservatives.
The ground zero mosque isn't even going to be a mosque, its a cultural center that will have a prayer room. But even if it was a mosque, there is nothing objectionable to having one there. Not all Muslims are terrorists, in fact the vast majority are peaceful people like you or me. Muslim Americans also died in the 9/11 attacks as well, are they less human than everyone else? By telling specific Muslims they can't build a mosque there is accusing them of having ties to terrorists, that is unfair.
Anyways Gary, I can tell you spent time doing research into these things, instead of just following what you are told. You and I may have fundamental differences, But I hope you don't take my scorn for the Tea Party as a whole too personally. You seem like a respectable gentleman, hopefully you and will get along in something else we're both passionate about: Guitars
I didn't say something was false but not say why, i don't know where you're getting that from.
What I said isn't opinion, its fact. I said which people belonged to what party, there is nothing opinionated about that. If you read my post closely you would have seen that I mentioned that the Democrats were conservative up until 1964, and those conservatives did include the likes of Strom Thurman. Up until the last two decades, the Republicans were a respectable party, but not anymore.
I'm not German, but Norway is a Socio-Liberal heaven when it comes to healthcare :3. Why socialized healthcare isn't a must have for any industrialized country by now is beyond me.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 8 2010, 06:46 AM
Wow. What a thread eh? I must say that for me the whole thing boils down to the fact that we have 10 percent long term unemployment and 2 percent forward looking growth and a massive debt load that we can't sustain. Being a libertarian I've got issues with just about every "party" but that's neither here nor there. Bottom line, we have got to do things that are not pretty
1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)
All "Party Politics" aside, these are just fiscal realities that are ugly and not politically attractive to any candidate. There is not a lot of political will to talk about fixing the structural issues we face. It all gets lost in a haze of partisan politics.
Now the congress is split so the next two years are a wash. So we are at a dead stop on "recovery" for the next couple of years. Until then we are going to have to just fake it until we can see which direction the country goes in terms of policy and politics after the 2012 Election. But the Doomsayers are convinced none of this will matter after that date anyway as the Asteroid/Galactic Alignment/Solar Max Flares/ Etc. are going to cause global armageddon and our problems will seem kinda small.
Todd
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 8 2010, 07:23 AM
1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)
All "Party Politics" aside, these are just fiscal realities that are ugly and not politically attractive to any candidate. There is not a lot of political will to talk about fixing the structural issues we face. It all gets lost in a haze of partisan politics.
Now the congress is split so the next two years are a wash. So we are at a dead stop on "recovery" for the next couple of years. Until then we are going to have to just fake it until we can see which direction the country goes in terms of policy and politics after the 2012 Election. But the Doomsayers are convinced none of this will matter after that date anyway as the Asteroid/Galactic Alignment/Solar Max Flares/ Etc. are going to cause global armageddon and our problems will seem kinda small.
Todd
Finally, a voice of reason
Todd, you're awesome dude, you nailed it. Sometimes reality is a hard pill to swallow. Nobody wants to pay more taxes - I certainly don't - but these two wars that have cost more than a trillion dollars have to be paid for.I will read with an open mind , but realize that i have been a registered independant for ten years and lean a lot towards liberterian moto "When in doubt-side towards freedom".I am not interested in someones opinion,i like just the fax maam ,such as ,a reason Obama concerns me is that he said that if we don't pass his stimulus that unemployement will rise above 9 and if we do pass it it will stay under 8.
remember the facts ,so why has he not been made to answer this question as unemployement has been around 10 percent .also there is still , 400 billion in the stimulus not spent , seeing how every dollar the government spends 40 percent is borrowed -from my kids and yours
and still from the white house----nothing and i think this is what the elections were about i did not vote republican for there past plans i voted for new republicans with the message to bring this government spending to a halt, and if they don't , i will vote them out . my plan is to keep changing government till they get the idea
In a earlier thread you said that there will never be a perfect health care system and you are right , but that does not make it right to take costitutional freedoms away from people to do it
i encourage you -if you do have an open mind to visit http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11310&news_iv_ctrl=-1 as this is the only way to get the power away from washington and deliver it back to the people where it belongs
peace
Is there anything specific you would like to me to send you?
I'm glad you're an independent and not aligned to any particular party or ideology, that leaves you free to choose your own ideology, instead of being coerced into believing a certain ideology. No ideology is one hundred percent correct, and being independent allows you to pick and choose what you think is right.
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 8 2010, 08:22 AM
Karl-ss - ask Your grandparents how havenly was Norway 80 year ago. Without a free market working there for few very important years, specific time in history when countries got money for "rebuilding after the war and because USRR was near" and most importantly without oil deposits, socialism in Norway would never work. Of course it is a big thing on it's own to be a socialistic country and still make profit out of anything, but thankfully Scandinavians are the most responsible spenders there are. In fact there is no other place in the world where this system works. But from what I read and what I heard from Danes and Swedes I know (unfortunately no Norwegians) both countries leans a little to the right side and has more and more problems because of the huge public sector.
Posted by: brandon Nov 8 2010, 11:29 PM
So you're against career politicians? So that would mean you're against all the Bush's, McCain, Biden, and Gore , and that you're for Obama, Palin, and John Edwards, correct?
Posted by: Gary Nov 9 2010, 07:08 AM
Ooops.. my bad. I forgot to add in the narcissistic trial lawyer disclaimer
Posted by: kaznie_NL Nov 9 2010, 06:34 PM
I recently watched Michael Moore's documentary for anyone willing to be informed about the American and European Socal Securty systems. It's a great watch, very funny, but also very informative. Fun to watch for Europeans (or Cubans ), but I guess IMPORTANT to watch for Americans!
sorry if this is to far off topic, but it kidna gets back to my earlier statement of us Dutch people (European overall) have a hard time understanding Americans.
Posted by: Gary Nov 9 2010, 10:05 PM
), but I guess IMPORTANT to watch for Americans!sorry if this is to far off topic, but it kidna gets back to my earlier statement of us Dutch people (European overall) have a hard time understanding Americans.
Kaznie,
You will have a terrible time understanding America if you are putting stock in information disseminated from a Michael Moore documentary. Mr. Moore is widely known for being extremely gifted at twisting facts and bending truths to meet his own agenda. Note my feelings on him are not polictically based, just google him and you will see much of the information he presents is inaccurate. You would do much better to take your information from a middle of the road, fact based source as opposed to someone like Michael Moore.
Gary
1.)Raise Taxes (I HATE this idea but we have to pay for 2 wars and and service our massive debt with something?)
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)
All "Party Politics" aside, these are just fiscal realities that are ugly and not politically attractive to any candidate. There is not a lot of political will to talk about fixing the structural issues we face. It all gets lost in a haze of partisan politics.
Now the congress is split so the next two years are a wash. So we are at a dead stop on "recovery" for the next couple of years. Until then we are going to have to just fake it until we can see which direction the country goes in terms of policy and politics after the 2012 Election. But the Doomsayers are convinced none of this will matter after that date anyway as the Asteroid/Galactic Alignment/Solar Max Flares/ Etc. are going to cause global armageddon and our problems will seem kinda small.
Todd
Hi Todd,
Note the current administration is taking a completely different approach, they are attempting to inflate our way out of this mess. The printing press is in full power mode creating tons of fiat money out of thin air and flooding it into our economy. This is hardly a creative solution to our economic problems and it has the potential to impart some very dark consequences. QE2 is a very dangerous attempt at a solution for numerous bad decisions that were made over many years. It it causes me to believe that we must be in worse economic shape than is being lead on. America needs to be put on a spending diet, plain and simple.
Gary
Posted by: kaznie_NL Nov 9 2010, 10:28 PM
You will have a terrible time understanding America if you are putting stock in information disseminated from a Michael Moore documentary. Mr. Moore is widely known for being extremely gifted at twisting facts and bending truths to meet his own agenda. Note my feelings on him are not polictically based, just google him and you will see much of the information he presents is inaccurate. You would do much better to take your information from a middle of the road, fact based source as opposed to someone like Michael Moore.
Gary
One of IMO the best skills of Dutch people is our never ending 'own' look on things. If Michael Moore screams things out on the screen, we still go thinking, hmmm what of that would be true, what won't. I guess he does quite some twisting facts and figures to make more money in his documentaries, but there are some facts that can't be twisted. Like the fact that hospitals and medicins in America cost poor people lots of money!
I didn't intend going into a political discussion, as I said, I haven't got enough information about how things go in the US, so I can't judge them properly. Since my only 'input' on the subject were some vague memories and a Michael Moore documentary, you're right: I shouldn't make any hard conclusions. But I do believe it's possible to filther some truths out of the little input.
I still ask you to watch it, and tell me what you think of it. Try to watch unbiased, although it's very hard. Then tell me, are the US having a good social system? Better then Europe at least?
It was actually only intended to show how different our mentality is/was, but this might result in some interesting debate
thanks for answering
Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 9 2010, 10:48 PM
I didn't intend going into a political discussion, as I said, I haven't got enough information about how things go in the US, so I can't judge them properly. Since my only 'input' on the subject were some vague memories and a Michael Moore documentary, you're right: I shouldn't make any hard conclusions. But I do believe it's possible to filther some truths out of the little input.
I still ask you to watch it, and tell me what you think of it. Try to watch unbiased, although it's very hard. Then tell me, are the US having a good social system? Better then Europe at least?
It was actually only intended to show how different our mentality is/was, but this might result in some interesting debate
thanks for answering
We have very little social system in America , that is the way our founders intended--the government to stay out of the way
as far as the poor not being able to afford health care-there ar e 10 million so called poor that do not enroll for the health care they could get for free
it is illegal for the emergency room to turn away anyone who needs care, even illegals that don't pay taxes to help cover that burden so the middle class get hit
one qeustion that will clear a lot of things up is, do people go to the US to get health care when their coutry takes to long --or do they go to the so called
wonderful sociol programs that is in mr. moore's film
Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 10 2010, 01:53 AM
Todd, you're awesome dude, you nailed it. Sometimes reality is a hard pill to swallow. Nobody wants to pay more taxes - I certainly don't - but these two wars that have cost more than a trillion dollars have to be paid for.Thanks Mudbone
I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. It's easy to get sucked in to a partisan flame war with issues this close to the bone. It's good to see folks step back a bit and talk in a rational way. We really are up against the wall, so to speak, but we have always managed to work it out in the past. That's no guarantee of course, but innovation and creativity have long been at the core of the economy in the U.S. (as well as a bit of sword rattling depending on who you ask) so I'm hopeful for the future, but I remain concerned. Our current path is simply not one we can sustain. The voting public will have to embrace the pain of loss and "doing with less", and a "lower normal" for perhaps entire generation unless we can pull a miracle out of our pocket. The good news is, Miracles happen. Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. There are great companies here leading the charge on growth, creating wealth and not destroying the earth that sustains us. We have a long road ahead. But I"m not yet ready to say our best days are behind us.
Todd
Posted by: Mudbone Nov 10 2010, 02:22 AM
I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. It's easy to get sucked in to a partisan flame war with issues this close to the bone. It's good to see folks step back a bit and talk in a rational way. We really are up against the wall, so to speak, but we have always managed to work it out in the past. That's no guarantee of course, but innovation and creativity have long been at the core of the economy in the U.S. (as well as a bit of sword rattling depending on who you ask) so I'm hopeful for the future, but I remain concerned. Our current path is simply not one we can sustain. The voting public will have to embrace the pain of loss and "doing with less", and a "lower normal" for perhaps entire generation unless we can pull a miracle out of our pocket. The good news is, Miracles happen. Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. There are great companies here leading the charge on growth, creating wealth and not destroying the earth that sustains us. We have a long road ahead. But I"m not yet ready to say our best days are behind us.
Todd
+1
Posted by: kaznie_NL Nov 11 2010, 03:21 PM
2.)Lower Spending ( I HATE this idea too as I like several programs like student loans and health care so cutting is not a fun option but we have no choice)
3.)Increase nominal Growth (We can't sustain our way of life on 2 percent annual growth. Just can't)
Todd, this is reasoning, and this is good
IMO this is exactly how politics should be. You can't be happy all the time, there are down and up sides to everything. You show how you don't like spending more, but it's the only way: rational as far as the poor not being able to afford health care-there ar e 10 million so called poor that do not enroll for the health care they could get for free
it is illegal for the emergency room to turn away anyone who needs care, even illegals that don't pay taxes to help cover that burden so the middle class get hit
one qeustion that will clear a lot of things up is, do people go to the US to get health care when their coutry takes to long --or do they go to the so called
wonderful sociol programs that is in mr. moore's film
Sorry, but I don't exactly get your point. You set the question: Do people (US citizens??) go to US health care when their own healthcare takes to long.... Ok, I gues you d'nt mean US citizens. Then you'd mean non-US people? People here in Europe for instance (non-US) never have to wait because their health care takes to long. If they do have money and want an even quicker result, they can go to a private clinic.
I probably didn't answer your question, because I don't understand it fully
Posted by: Praetorian Nov 11 2010, 04:28 PM
IMO this is exactly how politics should be. You can't be happy all the time, there are down and up sides to everything. You show how you don't like spending more, but it's the only way: rational Sorry, but I don't exactly get your point. You set the question: Do people (US citizens??) go to US health care when their own healthcare takes to long.... Ok, I gues you d'nt mean US citizens. Then you'd mean non-US people? People here in Europe for instance (non-US) never have to wait because their health care takes to long. If they do have money and want an even quicker result, they can go to a private clinic.
I probably didn't answer your question, because I don't understand it fully
I think he meant that Canadians mostly, will come to the US for medical care, because it takes too long in Canada to get treatment. My uncle is an American, who lives in Canada. He comes to the US for ALL his medical needs. He said that he could make an appointment to see a doctor in Canada...and they won't be able to see him for a year sometimes!
I don't know what the ultimate "answer" is to health care...but total socialization of the system does NOT work.
Posted by: kaznie_NL Nov 11 2010, 04:59 PM
I don't know what the ultimate "answer" is to health care...but total socialization of the system does NOT work.
Here in NL it DOES work.
Maybe the word 'total' is an exegeration (spelling...
). Here everybody has a basic social securty. It includes all basic care, like dental care, all hospital care etc. Then you can add more, but it'll cost more, like orthodoncy (is that English? I mean the dental specialist in braces. They're seen as 'luxury' items.this system WORKS and pleae don't say it doesn't
Posted by: brandon Nov 11 2010, 10:42 PM
Maybe the word 'total' is an exegeration (spelling...
). Here everybody has a basic social securty. It includes all basic care, like dental care, all hospital care etc. Then you can add more, but it'll cost more, like orthodoncy (is that English? I mean the dental specialist in braces. They're seen as 'luxury' items.this system WORKS and pleae don't say it doesn't
I'm an American and I wish we could have more of a social healthcare system. I live in the southeasthern US where there isn't a lot of money, so I know a lot of people who actually can't afford healthcare. I've even had to go without it myself for several years when I had to decide between either buying food and paying rent or getting insurance. Sure there are people who choose not to get insurance, but the majority of people without it probably just can't afford it. I think our system is completely flawed. We have some great hospitals and some amazing doctors/specialists, but no one can afford to see them. I have health insurance and honestly I don't feel like I'm covered....at least not if something bad were to happen. Sure I get to go to doctor for minor ailments and I get to go to the dentist every six months for a cleaning, but if I were to get really sick I don't think I would be able to afford it. I've had friends get cancer and their insurance companies immediately raise their rates, refuse to cover procedures the doctors are telling them are necessary, and try their best to drop them.....and guess what, as soon as they get too sick to work anymore the insurance companies drop them...and that's after they've already exhausted all of their savings trying to keep themselves alive. So I know this thread has been going on for a while and it's been argument back and forth about whether the US healthcare system works or not.....and honestly if that question even needs to be asked then obviously IT DOES NOT WORK!! I would love to have socialized medicine, but to be completely honest I don't think it would work in the US. This country is too large and I think a lot of money would disappear in to peoples pockets the further it moves away from DC. I do, however, think a system like was described before would be good for the US. If there was basic healthcare that everyone was entitled to and then if you wanted better healthcare or some of the other bells and whistles you could pay for that. Contrary to popular belief emergency rooms would be less crowded because all of the people who don't have insurance that show up with things like poison ivy would actually be able to see a family doctor instead. Makes sense to me, but I know how Americans tend to be very bull headed and prideful. But by being stubborn we're only hurting ourselves.
Posted by: tonymiro Nov 12 2010, 12:49 PM
I empathise with them Brandon.
I'm lucky enough to live in Europe and so have access to state medical care. I also have a notifiable, regressive terminal illness. No medical insurance company will provide me with policy cover because the cost of treatment for me rapidly increases. I had medical insurance some years ago but it was canceled by the insurance company when I was diagnosed.
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