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Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 6 2010, 12:19 PM

Hi GMC,

I've been thinking about this for a while. The facts are: GMC is an awesome community and the forums are of very much help to everyone here. And the forums are very messy. And by this I don't mean the layout or the skins - I mean the people using these forums. I think that people have very good ideas and very much things to say, but they often forget to check if somebody's asked the same thing before. And even if they do, they still post a new topic on the subject - and as a result, we have, for example, probably some 30 topics for sweeping basics (I just pulled this out of my head).

You all probably agree that this eventually leads to a situation where people get tired trying to search older topics on the subject they are asking about, since the information they are looking for is scattered all over the place - leading into even more scattering.

So how about this: we start some MAJOR topics like: 3-string sweeping shapes, Jazz phrasing, Economy picking etc. If somebody's got the guts, we could try and gather together all (or most) of the previous discussions on the subject in the opening post. Also a link to a GMC Wiki handling the subject would be great. That way it would be much easier for people to find the information they're looking for, without having to ask the same question a dozen of people have asked already.

These kinds of big topics would of course become massive eventually, so when a topic grows very big (say, more than 10 pages or so) we'll start another one: Economy picking 2 etc.

Of course that could have its problems, too, and it's kind of troublesome to get started, BUT! I think it would be the right thing to do. I believe these forums are messy, and following that kind of a method we could organize the information this place contains much more effectively. I also believe that we should encourage new forum users to read these "main" topics first, since the answer might very well be there.

So my main points: The forums are messy now, so I claim that by gathering the information needed on the many subjects we have here under some bigger major topics, we could make this place a much better place to read and write.

What do you think?

-Kristian

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Feb 6 2010, 12:34 PM

From my experience on different forums, it doesn't work good. There are few effect of such organizing:
1. tons of pinned topics, that forces You to scroll and scroll and scroll down to find any new topic
2. there are similar amount of new threads with the most basic questions, but they get closed, and the poster is just informed "this question is already answered "there""
3. the whole activity on the forum decrease over time, as older members already got their answers, and newer ones instead of posting things, just look up for the answers, and leave after.

Of course GMC have many traits, that are beyond any other regular forum, but still some of those unwanted effects could take place.

Posted by: zen Feb 6 2010, 12:59 PM

I totally agree with this ... It boils down to forum etiquette that a lot of people are not used to ....

In my opinion it's just plain disrespectful to fireaway a question that is already PINNED in another forum.
It's a demand for answers without making the prior effort to search for it.. Everyone likes quick answers
If it's a genuine request, the poster would post what he/she has searched or admit that he/she is confused .. rather than create posts in the form of questions like "What are modes" and expecting everyone to jump in and address it.

In most forums on the net, it's a RULE to search the entire database properly on the queries before creating new threads..
But then again GMC is fairly small community, especially if you consider the number of members to the number of people who actually post !!!! What is it ? Not even 0.1 % of the total members post here ... But it should improve with time..

Posted by: Fran Feb 6 2010, 01:08 PM

I believe the answer could be in the knowledge base (wiki), I've been trying to organize the inmense amount of knowledge scattered in our forums there, and you will find lots of information from our forums there.

What we could do to avoid having lots of pined topics and threads is just create an entry in the wiki, for instance "Sweeping FAQ" and add there all the info we find in the forums, either copying there the most important and useful answers from our members and also providing links to the original threads.

I will gladly help with this project, and will probably make a good continuation of the WCP (Wiki Centralization Project) which I started a long ago and served to gather all gear/album reviews from our boards into our wiki. (Take a walk in the wiki board and read the pinned threads!)

Everyone can edit and create new entries in the wiki, the wiki belongs to GMC members and is the place where everyone is invited and encouraged to build new stuff and ideas, such as this one. So go ahead! I will start working on this, and all help is appreciated: either start doing it yourselves or maybe send me the topics & links to useful threads regarding the matter.

The knowledge base is the answer!

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 6 2010, 01:15 PM

Marek, I agree with some of your points. But I'd like to point out that in the current situation you have to scroll even more - perhaps through a hundred pages of topics to find the answer you're looking for. Also I don't believe that GMC:s activity would drop, since all questions can never be answered with just one point, I believe strongly that these "major" topics would be very active. I prefer having a big topic filled with different questions on the same subject rather than a dozen topics on the same question. (yes, I'm exaggerating it a bit ) The idea isn't to be disrespectful towards newbies, but rather to guide them towards the right direction.

When people see what questions are answered, the discussion isn't only focused around the same subjects but it could maybe take whole new developments. I don't believe this would stop the discussion - more like expand it!

Fran, I really believe that would be a good start! But I also believe we should give a try to this idea of mine, since the Wikis will never be able to answer all the small questions; so they are asked in the forums. Which leads, as I pointed out, to some problems.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Feb 6 2010, 01:23 PM

I agree 100%!!!
In fact I would stop browsing the GMC forum if it would become like those other forums...

Posted by: Fran Feb 6 2010, 01:25 PM

Oh, of course!, all I wish is to take all the important info from the boards into our wiki, so that we have a good, solid knowledge base that is helpful and fast when browsing for info. And the source of all info is the boards!, I like to think that the boards are the heart of the site while the knowledge base is its memory


I like the boards, and I don't really feel there's anything wrong when people ask the same thing over and over, because even though the questions might be the same the stories are always different, new opinions appear, and it makes the forums feel so "alive", I check these boards a hundred times a day and love how there are alway new topics & answers here every time I look

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 6 2010, 01:48 PM

I disagree. I find it difficult to find the correct topics because of the amount the topics started every day. In bigger "main" topics people could still ask the same questions - and even though their question might have been answered already, someone might have something new to say. These good qualities of GMC:ers wouldn't disappear anywhere. I believe that this would be more helpful to people with questions and to people (like me) who get easily confused.

-Kristian

Posted by: ZakkWylde Feb 6 2010, 01:55 PM

Nobody reads those gigantic topics regularly so it might take days for a question to get an answer while with the way it is now, the new topics are read by a lot of users and a lot of quick answers are certain!

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 6 2010, 03:14 PM

I disagree with you - I haven't been to a good forum (like GMC) where big topics aren't being read. But I, for example, definitely do not read all the new topics because their amount and diversity are just too great. I see we have two different camps here - let's hear what the admins think.

Posted by: Fran Feb 6 2010, 04:35 PM

I always use the "View new topics" button up there, that way I check all the new stuff, and I couldn't live without it. I click on it like a million times every day

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Feb 6 2010, 04:51 PM

Fran it works same way with me:D I do my stuff, and click that damn button every few minutes:D

Posted by: kaznie_NL Feb 6 2010, 04:59 PM

I really don't mind answering the same question ten times!

Posted by: JamesT Feb 6 2010, 05:23 PM

I really don't mind reading a new post that's similar to one I've seen before. There are usually some new perspectives that come about when a question is asked in a slightly different way even if it's basically a repeat of what was said before.

And IMHO, I prefer less formality in discussion forums with fewer "rules" and less "structure". To me, it just provides a more relaxing atmosphere knowing that if you post something that's kind of cliche or frequently talked about, it's ok, and nobody is going to come after you for it.

Just my 2c.

Posted by: Crazy_Diamond Feb 6 2010, 07:53 PM

I totally agree with you James ...

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Feb 6 2010, 08:24 PM

agree as well will the last posts. Almost exclusively checking just the new posts/topics...

Posted by: jafomatic Feb 6 2010, 08:27 PM

ctrl+t, type 'get', down arrow, enter

Opens this URL in a new tab: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?act=Search&CODE=getnew which is that "View New Posts" item

Read what looks good. Then click "mark all forums read" when there's nothing left that's interesting to me.

The other thing you can do is subscribe to specific subforums so that you receive an email alert when there's a new thread. I do this for collaborations right now but I also did this for the MTP as well.

Posted by: Fusar Feb 7 2010, 12:49 AM

I use this "New Topic"-Button a lot as well I see what you wanna say Kristian, but I think I like this forum so much, because you don't have to have fears to ask a question!
However, I'll find it a great idea, to use forum topics to form posts in the Wiki, Fran! So we would have a FAQ for forum-newbies, which would be worth reading, but they could ask their questions, no problem

Posted by: zen Feb 7 2010, 01:35 AM

This is becoming a catch 22 .. I use the 'view new topic' button too..

I reckon let things be as they are coz we DO want more people posting (the stats are just sad) than anything else.. be it repeated queries ... and on the side work on Wiki as much as possible so it can be linked to the topics appropriately.

The majority of the users who don't post probably find what they're looking for ..which directly affects the activity of the forum ..... hence leading to a no-win situation.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Feb 7 2010, 01:54 AM

I'm yet another view-new-posts-aholic. It's all I do all day on GMC.

I don't think what you're referring to is such a big deal though. I know from other forums that what you suggest can work quite well, but as others have said, I think as it is now here works just fine.

Posted by: Staffy Feb 7 2010, 10:58 AM

+1 on that Fran! And I dont think the forums are messy comparing to other forums on the internet. With that vaste amount of information, its hard to keep a forum "clean" without some heavy moderation - and I rather prefer a more "free" and livelier discussion forum, rather than one that doesnt live.... As Fran also says here, a really hard work is going on with the WIKI, and the most common questions shall of course find it's place there instead. I do agree anyway, that the forums may have a little steep "learning curve", but once You get into the system, its really no problem to find information - or just throw out the question again, since all people are most likely to help!

//Staffay

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 7 2010, 11:46 AM

This is a great discussion - and I agree with what's been said. We have tried the sticky thread model but we removed it, the main reasons were the ones mentioned here.

It goes down to what Fran is saying - if you see the forum as a knowledge base then you might want to start structuring it up with sticky threads etc. However we have already got our knowledge base - and personally I love seeing new topics and lots of activity on our boards. I think a lot of new threads (even if they aren't unique) makes GMC a better place.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Feb 7 2010, 12:45 PM

Personally, I like the Forums as they are. This is mainly because the 'Search' function works well and when someone posts a repeat question without having used it one of the Members will post a link to the earlier thread. On top of this, as already mentioned, if the question is worded differently from an earlier Post then it usually elicits some different responses which may also be useful to the earlier Poster too!
I do think that having a pinned FAQ/Link to the Wiki could be a very useful addition and I don't mind helping Fran to do this if needed. Unfortunately, I think the amount of repetition would only be reduced if the Poster actually uses the Search facilities and, as we can't physically make that happen this will always be a part of these forums.
I also like to be a part of this Community where there are so many people willing to help and offer advice. I wish this sort of thing had been available 25+ years ago when I was struggling to teach myself!!!!

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 7 2010, 03:34 PM

Alright. Just popped into my mind.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Feb 7 2010, 04:59 PM

The forum IMO is not that scattered, the info is available, we all keep important bookmarks that we like and we can always reference to a topic, but for GMC it is very important to answer the questions asked when they show up, it's one of the important features of GMC - people get the answer to exactly what they asked and in short notice. The combination of pinned topics, immediate answering, wiki, and topic referencing is what gives strength to this forum.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 7 2010, 06:03 PM

We love that you care enough about GMC to make suggestions like this - keep them coming, we are always willing to listen!

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 12 2010, 01:26 PM

Thank you Andrew - and everyone who has been there to answer my suggestions! As a matter of fact, I myself have always been in more controlled forums, which of course has influenced on my view of a good forum. I still disagree with many of the opinions given here, but I also understand the point of view of those disagreeing with me.

So let's go from this basis and endeavour to make this place even better with the current ways.

Posted by: Keilnoth Feb 12 2010, 04:59 PM

Not a while ago it was pretty much impossible to search on the forum. So the only choice to have an answer was to ask the question. Now, the search function works much better.

It's good to talk about that subject so perhaps people will use the search function a bit more before asking a question. That's some common sense and logic as you don't need to lose your time asking a question if its answer is already available.

And if people who answer know the answer is somewhere in the place, they just copy the link and it will help keep the place tidy.

But applying very strict rules will definitely kill the forum.

About the Display New Posts button, I personally don't have enough time in my life to read the 500 / day new post on the forum so I don't use that button. I don't even mark the post as read and only read what seems to be interesting...

Posted by: jafomatic Feb 12 2010, 05:36 PM

It's been fourteen to sixteen hours since I last hit "view new posts" and I had 19 unread posts. That's a long way from 500.

Totally agree about everything else tho

Posted by: Gus Feb 15 2010, 12:58 PM

Actually I think the other way around, because if you click the view new posts often, then the most interesting topics will be there more often (since more people is posting on them).

So basically I use it all the time. To be fair, most of the time i skip GMC main page and I go for the "view new posts"

Then, I agree with everyone about keeping the forum more as it is and using the wiki as knowledge base. GMC is probably the only internet forum I ever liked for real.

Posted by: Keilnoth Feb 15 2010, 02:24 PM

Ok, I was wrong... Not sure why I had that bad experience with the View New Posts button but after your posts I tried it once again and I feel much better with that functionality. Think I will use it as well from now on...

Thanks for your enlightenment !

Posted by: Fran Feb 15 2010, 02:43 PM

And there it is, a new follower of our little "View New posts" Cult

Posted by: Daniel Realpe Feb 19 2010, 02:56 PM

I agree with that,

but it can be a good idea