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Posted by: Serberuss Jul 7 2016, 05:23 PM

Hey GMC,

I've just signed up here again as I was on this site quite a few years ago under a completely different name, but have decided to come back after taking a break from guitar for quite a long time (about 5 years). So although I'm not a complete beginner because I still have the knowledge I had before I am still beginner level.

I was hoping to get some advice on an issue I've been having lately. I started playing again back in March and lately I've been playing pretty much every day. I've noticed something when I'm playing which is I keep getting aches in my right arm around my bicep and just above that. Since I've been playing again since March I would have though my arms would have adjusted by now to playing guitar again.

It isn't a sharp pain that suddenly comes on but is more like a gradual ache that will get worse as time goes on, although it's a relatively short space of time. I noticed it the most when I was trying to play Paranoid and found that I'd ache quite a bit when palm muting the 12th and 14th frets quite a bit. Even if I just hold my hand in a position as if I'm about to hit the strings, but not actually hit them, I still get the same problem so I don't think it's anything to do with where I'm fretting.

I've tried a number of things and I haven't seemed to fix it. I make sure to pay attention to my right arm to consciously make sure that it's relaxed and I don't play anything too fast. I'm pretty sure the way I hold my guitar is fairly normal - I hold it in the standard right leg position with the neck slightly pointing away from my body, I don't think it's normal to have it running across your body in a straight angle right? This is a PRS SE electric guitar by the way.

So I'm really just looking for some advice on how to proceed. Perhaps it'd help to upload a photo of myself holding the guitar? If anyone has had this problem in the past I'd be interested to hear how you got around it. Thanks for any help

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 7 2016, 05:50 PM

Hello and welcome back

Assuming you're a right hander and sorting down it could be a bio mechanical problem. Never mind how you used to hold the guitar, 5 years will create muscular changes if you haven't been playing. If you have your guitar, as most do, resting on the leg on the same side as your strumming arm, it is pretty unnatural and pulls the tendon of the bicep. Try resting it in the other leg or wearing a strap to hold it just off your legs and more central to your body.

Let us know what that feels like.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: PosterBoy Jul 7 2016, 05:57 PM

I suffer from golfer's elbow if I'm not careful due to weight training and guitar playing, my physio treats a handful of other guitarist/Mandolin players etc for the same.

Massaging and stretching forearm and bicep muscles helps a lot a lot, as those muscle often get tight and start to pull on the tendons around the elbow

Posted by: Mertay Jul 7 2016, 07:45 PM

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 7 2016, 04:23 PM)

Posted by: Serberuss Jul 7 2016, 09:23 PM

Thanks for the replies.

I'll try and take some pictures sometime soon and upload them. I have actually tried playing on the other leg before and even though it's nice on the right arm I found it really uncomfortable in general and it just didn't feel right for me. I felt like I couldn't find a good way of holding it in that position.

I did a few more tests tonight and I found that it's mostly an issue when I'm palm muting. Normal when I strum I am picking just before the bridge pickup and my hand is usually floating i.e I don't anchor unless I'm deliberately wanting to mute strings while picking higher notes or I'm palm muting. It seems my arm has an issue when my hand is that far back on the guitar but not when it's a bit more forward.

Haven't tried too much with a strap yet so I'll give that a try.

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 7 2016, 10:07 PM

Definitely try the strap. I can manage on the opposite leg to strumming hand but recently I've been using a strap. It forces you to have good posture and if you start playing standing up, the guitar is in a similar position.

You may be able to gradually go back to playing on your strumming arm side leg but be careful. You may need the help of a physio.

Phil

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 8 2016, 12:47 AM

I"m Todd and I"m a Staff Instructor here at GMC and have been here now more than half a decade and been playing more than twice that time. Believe me when I say to you that something like this pain can be VERY serious. I don't want to worry you, but I would STRONGLY suggest you get to a medical professional ASAP. I mean it. You don't want to damage yourself permanently. We can give you advice, and it might help. But none of us are trained medical professionals as far as I am aware. So , PLEASE GO TO THE DOCTOR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

After that, we can help you develop better warm up, cool down, ergonomics, etc. But first, you need a Doctor to make the call.

Todd

Posted by: verciazghra Jul 8 2016, 01:16 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 7 2016, 11:47 PM)

Posted by: nikeman64 Jul 8 2016, 07:36 AM

Definitely : first : medical aid!

But about your playing style : just a thought; do you use proper wrist movement or are you more like a "forearm" player. As you mention the problem zone is the biceps, I think you put a lot of stress on that area if you use your forearm mainly to make up and downstrokes instead of your wrist. Uploading a vid could reveal a lot. Our instructors can tell you if your positioning and playing is OK.

Good luck man and have your arm treated before you play on

Posted by: Serberuss Jul 8 2016, 09:01 AM

This may sound silly but why sort of medical professional should I be seeing for this? Knowing the doctors near where I live in 90% sure nothing useful will come from seeing them since they're likely to say you just need to practice or go and see a guitar instructor if they have no idea what the issue is in relation to position and guitar playing. I can go anyway and hope they have some sort of experience with issues like this but I'm quite doubtful.

I've made sure that the motion is always in the wrist and never the arm. I'm not sure what the muscle is but it happens above the bicep muscle too. As soon as it starts to ache I stop until it goes away so I never push it too far. The problem is this sometimes means I can't continuously play so if I'm practicing something I have to stop half way through.

Thanks again for the advice

Posted by: Mertay Jul 8 2016, 09:23 AM

Is there a college or orchestra around your area? try asking a doctor to older classical musicians (violinist etc.) as usually they usually know the best.

Also monitor your daily activitys, for example using the mouse too long or carrying stuff can affect the muscle but you might only notice the problem when playing guitar.

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 8 2016, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 8 2016, 09:01 AM)

Posted by: Serberuss Jul 8 2016, 05:33 PM

There are quite a few physiotherapists in the city near me so perhaps that is my best bet. Some of them specialise in sports injuries so I think I might speak to someone and see if they can help me at all.

For the time being I think I'm going to cut down on how much I'm playing guitar, which is sad because I just want to play but obviously I don't want to ruin my ability to play altogether. Later on this month I'm getting a new chair which I think might help as well because the one I currently play on is quite uncomfortable anyway. Also since I haven't long started back going to the gym it's probably a good idea to give my arms a rest anyway, even though I'm not sure whether it's related but I wouldn't have thought so

Posted by: verciazghra Jul 8 2016, 07:03 PM

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 8 2016, 08:01 AM)

Posted by: Serberuss Jul 9 2016, 04:13 PM

Hey again sorry for the delay on getting these pictures up. I did my best but I took them by myself in a kind of selfie style. This should give you an idea of how I play palm muted. In this position my arm will eventually start to ache as if there's tension there, light at first and gradually gets worse but I never let it get that far because I rest it

Posted by: Mertay Jul 9 2016, 05:18 PM

I didn't notice anything wrong with your holding position, one question though; The upper right arm rest where the guitar body is cut, do you apply some pressure there? I do but when wearing a t-shirt, the skin doesn't slip from there and even if I really relax my arm it doesn't fall from position.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jul 9 2016, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 8 2016, 03:30 PM)

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 10 2016, 05:00 AM

I'd start with a General Practitioner and if he is simply no help, ask him to refer you to a Physical Therapist. I've gone to many a physical therapist dealing with carpal tunnel syndrome/repetitive stress injury from Guitar Playing. It's why I post a video of stretches in front of my Lesson Here it is. P.S. I"VE BEEN STRETCHING FOR DECADES, DON"T TRY TO STRETCH THIS FAR. STOP AT THE POINT OF TENSION



I really hope the medical system in your home town is not as clueless as you suggest. If it is, I'd still say start with the family doctor (assuming you have one of course) then ask to be referred to a specialist and or Physical Therapy.

As for playing, as was mentioned, playing from "THE ELBOW" is a good way to end up putting more stress than is needed on your arm. Try to pick from the fingers back, not the elbow forward. E.G. Start the pick strike with your fingers. Then add some wrist if needed. Try to leave the forearm/elbow out of it entirely if possible.

Here is a quick video demo. (alwys best to show imho)
*Notice how I'm picking using my fingers and a bit of wrist. My forearm is planted on the guitar, not using any elbow. This method is very effective and precise. It can result in a byproduct of enormous speed, with practice.



here is another example. Notice how I"m articulating the pick using my thumb and first finger. Then adding some wrist in at speed.Forearm stays still. Starts slow, ends on crazy.



Todd

P.S. NEVER PLAY TO THE POINT OF PAIN. EVER.

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 8 2016, 04:01 AM)

Posted by: Serberuss Jul 10 2016, 06:24 PM

I'm not deliberately applying pressure to where my arm rests on the guitar but I just let it kind of sit there so I can certainly feel it resting on the guitar but I'm not pushing down or anything onto it.

Kris - how come you had to see a chiropractor? How did it help resolve your issue? I'm not at the point where my arm is painful or anything like that, in my day to day routine there is no pain. It's only when I play guitar can I start to feel tension building up at certain times, but I always stop before the pain comes and allow the arm to rest for about 10 seconds before I resume playing again.

Todd - very interesting videos do you know of any good stretches for the upper arm area? This is where my issue is mainly at the moment. I'll double check my picking technique but I'm fairly sure this is what I'm doing, I have been giving my picking arm extra attention lately so I should have noticed if it was being used.

My GP isn't clueless I would say but this seems like a bit of a specialist area where I wouldn't expect the average doctor to know what the issue was. I thought perhaps having a guitar instructor locally look at my technique as well might be an option.


As a side question what sort of seating do you use for playing guitar? Is a stool better or a chair with a good back support a better option? Do you like to keep your back straight or slouch a bit over the guitar when you play?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jul 10 2016, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 10 2016, 07:24 PM)

Posted by: Mertay Jul 10 2016, 07:09 PM

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 10 2016, 05:24 PM)

Posted by: Serberuss Jul 10 2016, 09:33 PM

Kris - sorry to hear that happened but I'm glad you got through it. So you managed to get rid of it completely? Just out of curiosity what did you say to your chiropractor to begin with and what sort of treatment did they do on you?

Mertay - that's pretty much what I have but I'm getting a new chair soon because the one I use is pretty uncomfortable when I'm playing guitar, it gives me a pretty sore back after a while I find. I have a good chair but the arms are too long so I can't play guitar on it.


In your opinion do you think I should stop playing guitar completely until I get this looked at?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jul 10 2016, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 10 2016, 10:33 PM)

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 10 2016, 10:33 PM)

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 13 2016, 10:00 PM

Your GP can refer you to a specialist or physical therapy is needed You typically start with the GP then go to specialists from there. Hopefully

I sit while practicing mostly. With my left foot on a classical foot stool. But a pile of books would work just as well. As long as it raises your left leg so that you can put your guitar in between your legs (classical position) and have the neck angled up a bit where it is comfy. Some players sit "side saddle" with the guitar on the right leg. This gave me severe carpal tunnel syndrome and I quit doing it. Some folks are fine with it. Personally, I prefer classical position Far less stress on the wrist IMHO.

If you stop all "elbow picking" the issue should simply resolve itself. It sounds like you may have given yourself tennis elbow via rabid "tremolo picking" from the elbow instead of the wrist and fingers. It's quite common so don't feel bad. I picked that way myself as I'm primarily self taught and it just felt natural. I had to switch to something that felt less natural (picking from the wrist/fingers) in order to play for extended times without pain.

Here is a vid of Chris Broderick showing fine form sitting and using something to prop up his left leg ( He is also a trained classical player btw) while Gus G plays side saddle.

QUOTE (Serberuss @ Jul 10 2016, 01:24 PM)

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 18 2016, 08:45 PM

To me, the right arm of Chris is much more naturally positioned, as it is when you wear a strap. I know the majority of players sit more like Gus when sitting but look at the angle of his right upper arm when he's playing, this puts un-natural stress on the tendons of the bicep and anterior deltoid. Also http://www.guitarworld.com/interview-guitarist-rob-balducci-discusses-teaching-and-his-instructional-dvd-innovative-guitar-rock-beyond-boundaries where the mighty Rob Balducci has his guitar when sitting

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 19 2016, 05:27 AM

Gus started teaching himself long before he ever took any lessons from what I've read. I was self taught as well for many years and used to sit just like him. I took classical guitar in college and started sitting in classical position. It helped my carpal tunnel syndrome and made playing far more comfy during long practice session. I can't sit side saddle for more than about an hour without pain in my wrist.

By contrast, CHRIS is a professionally trained classical Player, with a degree in Classical Guitar/Music from the University of Denver. He brings much of his classical train to guitar and it shows up in everything he does from the way he holds, sits, frets, etc. The "classical position" was developed some time ago to allow players to have better access to the fretboard and reduce arm fatigue. Playing classical takes some serious practice. So you'd better be semi comfy when practicing it Same with electric IMHO.


Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 18 2016, 03:45 PM)

To me, the right arm of Chris is much more naturally positioned, as it is when you wear a trap. I know the majority of players sit more like Gus when sitting but look at the angle of his right upper arm when he's playing, this puts un-natural stress on the tendons of the bicep and anterior deltoid. Also http://www.guitarworld.com/interview-guitarist-rob-balducci-discusses-teaching-and-his-instructional-dvd-innovative-guitar-rock-beyond-boundaries where the mighty Rob Balducci has his guitar when sitting

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 19 2016, 08:43 AM

Agreed, you look at anyone playing standing and their right arm angle is closer to that of Chris than that of Gus. That's why I advocate wearing a strap and sitting upright when playing seated. I don't always do it myself though and sometimes when I'm improvising I end up hunched over the guitar like an orangutan My right arm is still comfy.
I think most people get away with sitting side saddle, note: I said "Get away with", if you have any issues or potential issues or any bio mechanical disadvantages in that area, it WILL eventually catch up with you.

Interesting topic.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 20 2016, 10:51 PM

I agree Of course, once you get to a certain point in your playing you may now and then sit side saddle now and then with no detriment. But I have to agree with Phil66 that sitting this way for hours on end puts simply too much stress on the wrist, and for the new player, they find that the guitar feels entirely different when they try to stand and play.

Ideally, your guitar should hit your chest in "roughly" the same spot whether you are sitting or standing. That way you don't have to learn everything twice, once for sitting, once for standing. As you get more advanced, you can pull a Slash and drop your guitar to your knees when standing if you like, and it will be fine. But that is 10 years from the day you picked up the instrument. At which point you can also play behind your head or with your teeth. For the first bit, I'd say try to sit in Classical with the left foot elevated and the neck angled up, as a general "Rule" for most every learning student.

Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 19 2016, 03:43 AM)

Agreed, you look at anyone playing standing and their right arm angle is closer to that of Chris than that of Gus. That's why I advocate wearing a strap and sitting upright when playing seated. I don't always do it myself though and sometimes when I'm improvising I end up hunched over the guitar like an orangutan My right arm is still comfy.
I think most people get away with sitting side saddle, note: I said "Get away with", if you have any issues or potential issues or any bio mechanical disadvantages in that area, it WILL eventually catch up with you.

Interesting topic.

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 21 2016, 08:40 AM

Yeah, you can get a proper foot stool or just use a block of wood to raise your left leg.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 21 2016, 03:37 PM

Even a stack of books will work Anything really that you can stack and put your foot on. Elevate your left foot until your guitar neck is roughly at a 45 degree angle.

Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 21 2016, 03:40 AM)

Posted by: Darius Wave Jul 21 2016, 05:34 PM

First of all great to have you back at GMC It's also an honor you put your trust in us and ask for help at the forum first.

We've been many times speaking of hands ache and it seems like the best choice was always to go to doctor before doing anything else. For example "overheating" your hand while trying to "warm up", considering it's the "practise break" issue. It has been proved more than few times, that doctors did help both - some of our students and some of instructors.

If we consider it's not a medical problem and you feel the pain in some particular hand position, than it really may be the long term break from playing guitar. I'm not a doctor but sometimes it happens to me, to not use some particular hand shapes/fingering patterns that need stretch or particular strength management. I then feel some pain trying to execute those. What works for me is to choose a lick that makes the problem visible and play it with constant speed. I start very softly, than increase the strength until i start to feel pain but then I do not stop, I do keep playing but loosening the strength to a painless level. The idea is to keep hand working and remind her the idea of strength management which makes us play constantly and relaxed with no pain. It usually take few days but in the 3rd day for example I feel that the "pain spot" is no longer there - I can feel increased muscle tension but it's not causing any pain.

I hope this helps.

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 21 2016, 08:36 PM

Maybe these will also help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPzQdBaSjg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6pHKOrQbs



Some reading.

http://www.guitar-bass.net/workshop/guitar-fitness/

http://www.physiobob.com/forum/patient-corner-questions-and-answers/9310-shoulder-issues-guitarists.html

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 22 2016, 06:56 PM

GREAT POST!!!! This one screen grab shows the main idea. He describes it VERY well also and gives all the "WHY" answers for using this position. It will save you from causing injury to yourself, in short. Imagine a guitar strap on him. If he stood up, the guitar should remain right about where it is, ideally

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 21 2016, 03:36 PM)

Maybe these will also help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPzQdBaSjg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6pHKOrQbs



Some reading.

http://www.guitar-bass.net/workshop/guitar-fitness/

http://www.physiobob.com/forum/patient-corner-questions-and-answers/9310-shoulder-issues-guitarists.html