Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: MisterM Mar 13 2019, 04:54 PM

Hi there

On my last REC, Todd Darius and Kris told me to work with my thumb.
I don’t understand how to do this.

On this video, you can watch my wrist and thumb.
If you want you can tell me how to improve it.

Thx you

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Antonio-Vivaldi-Winter-Arpeggios/

Posted by: Adam M Mar 13 2019, 05:23 PM

All I can say being nearly 60 missions into Todd's Bootcamp, I was recently introduced to playing thumbless in it and it's difficult and comfortable in the beginning. But once you get used to it, you find yourself able to play with less muscle tension and using less strength with the fretting hand. I still consider myself a beginner in this technique but I'm already seeing the difference it makes. Definitely worth a try!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 14 2019, 05:20 AM

THUMB ARTICULATION: (Picking Hand)
It''s a simple thing to be honest. Your technique is good here Just suggesting you try to bend your thumb a bit at the first joint in the thumb. This will also pull your first in a bit which will bend mostly at it's second joint. This is just another way to control the pick. For arps/sweeps, what you are doing in this vid works great. Keeping a fairly stiff/rigid hand and picking from the wrist.
What I was talking about in the other thread was for parts where you are playing a ascending or descending scale. When doing that, controlling the pick with finer/smaller movements, using the thumb/finger can result in better control than picking everyhing from the wrist.

Play the A Minor Scale low to high string. Watch your thumb. Play slow. Now play it again and this time try to bend your thumb just a bit when you are doing alternate strikes and /or changing strings. it can result in a degree of more control on the pick hand. It's not required of course. Just another approach. Try it and make a quick vid.Here is a quick demo vid. Watch my picking hand and picking hand thumb. You'll see that my thumb sometimes bends during picking passages.


THUMBLESS: (Fretting Hand)
The technique adam is talking about is for the fret hand, not the pick hand. In "thumbless" technique, simply lift your left thumb OFF the back of the neck and use only your finger tips to fret the notes. This will show you if you are using "overpressure" on your fret hand. Just a way to help train the left hand not to clamp down too hard. Sometimes one needs to clamp down hard, but not always.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 14 2019, 03:37 PM

I recorded a quick video to try to explain how you can go about isolating and practicing the thumb joint movement:

Posted by: MisterM Mar 14 2019, 05:06 PM

Thank you Todd



Thank you Kris for this personnal video, it's an honor
Now, I know the way of practice, I go work on this direction.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 14 2019, 08:16 PM

Hope it helps bro. Btw I have an easier video setup now so I hope to be doing more of these!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 15 2019, 02:20 AM

Very cool vid! Might make a good GMC lesson actually!
Todd

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Mar 15 2019, 08:47 AM

Kris made you a perfect explanation!!! His feedback not let room to add things....but maybe I can say something.
After you manage the movements that Kris showed you, it's a good moment to start to put accents. It's just a nice add at the same technique. All you need to do it's to push the pick inside the string using the thumb movement to pushing hard. You will see how nice feeling the lick will got. Also at fast speed, accents are essentials to keep the perfect timing, so the thumb movement will do the job in a precisely way.


As a conclusion, using your thumb while picking will help you to have a good control over strings and also to reach higher speeds (because it minimize the move and maximize the speed).
Learning to work with my thumb was the thing which made me able to play the lessons from level 8.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 15 2019, 10:48 AM

And there you go. Monica has made insane alternate picking progress recently!

Posted by: MisterM Mar 16 2019, 09:31 AM

Thank you Monica for feedback

It’s hard because it rushes a lot of things.
Soon 7 years I play the guitar again and I had never noticed that.

I will try to hold on but I see this as a mountain to cross.
To conclude it is very discouraging

I have always been patient, I will try to continue

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 16 2019, 04:35 PM

You must have misunderstood my message because you have no reason to be discouraged. If my prediction is correct, you have a very steep learning curve ahead of you. If you practice what I showed you we might be talking about weeks only until you will emerge as a much more confident 'picker' - given how good your technique looks even without this essential movement.

So to clarify, I don't expect you to build any speed with the "joint movement only" method I showed you. You should just practice it at slow tempos, and then try picking with your normal technique and see what happens. Does it make sense?

Posted by: MisterM Mar 16 2019, 05:38 PM

Hi Kris

I understood, I I’work since 3 days the method you told me
I want to work fast but if I accelerate my thumb hardly moves
It’s frustrating to play at 70 BPM but I keep on playing

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 17 2019, 02:10 AM

Re training your hand for a new style of play is going to take some time to be sure. It's worth it though Learning any new bit can take more than a few days. Be patient with yourself. Picking with the thumb/forefinger is more about gaining a new way to control the pick and less about an increase in speed. Just keep playing as you normally would but try to focus on using this new picking approach as you go. Just make it part of your playing moving forward. Before you know it, this method of picking will seem like second nature.

Todd

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Mar 17 2019, 05:23 PM

I understand you perfectly because I went through this. Look, I had a lot moments of crisis and in my mentoring with Darek, we had some hard times because of my stubbornness. Believe me, I was lucky because he did not shoot me so far. Through time I understood that if I want to reach a high level, I can't skip things just because I found them being too hard for me.
To make things work and develop myself as guitarist, first I had to change myself as person. Two years ago I made a promise to Darek (I never break my promises) and from that moment I fallowed all the things that he told me to do, without to ask "why" (now I'm the most obedient student ). We don't waste time anymore trying to convince the other why something is better and our work got an extra boost.
I started to think in a different way and I found a good mental balance. Now I don't see a tragedy in making two steps back to be able to make one step further. Actually now I laugh every time I must redo some things.


Don't feel yourself discouraged. Actually you should be very proud of yourself. Instructors told you about this "thumb movement" because they always see the skills behind of student. With each new level that you will achieve, the instructors will be more demanding with you because you have so much potential that deserve to be squeezed to the maximum
Of course, things will not happen overnight and in my case it took me 6 months to have a good control over "thumb movement" from the slowest tempo to the 200 bpm. You have patience and this is the most important thing.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 18 2019, 04:14 AM

well said Take heart. It's an endless journey after all. Your relationship with your guitar is one that you will explore for the rest of your life on this earth. You learn new things about yourself as you learn new things about music and about learning. There is always something new to learn and something new to seek a level of mastery over. This is yet another link in the chain that will form your journey. Take each step knowing that you will get better each day
Todd

Posted by: MisterM Mar 18 2019, 07:28 AM

Hi Monica, Hi Todd

Alternate Picking is a technique that often gave me problems,
Maybe because I prefer to play Stéphane lucareli's lesson that require a lot of legato Sweeping and hybrid picking.

I gave up some of the lessons about going back. Today, I understand why.
I have been playing them again since a few days. I apply the technique Kris showed me.
I play slowly but I find it enjoyable. My pick is closer to the string and it’s a good sensation.

I have never been a Shred fan but I would like to add this skill to my playing because it is important if I want to go further,
Thank you for your comforting feedback, I continue to work, I will make a video in a few weeks to show you my progress

Have a nice day

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 20 2019, 12:38 AM

Keep at it I'll bet you make an enormous amount of progress in a very short time. You will suprise yourself.

TOI

Posted by: MisterM Aug 6 2019, 05:54 PM

Hi friend all around the world

I've been working for almost four months with advice from KRIS, TODD & GAB.
I signed up for BOOTCAMP, I validated Mission 19.

Every day I think about my thumb joint.
despite all my efforts, I feel progress but it seems so tiny.

Here's my video recording today

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 7 2019, 05:16 AM

I think you have very solid technique here. It's clean, it's well played, you have good pick control and muting and hand synch. I think you are making great progress! It is probably harder so see from your perspective as you hear yourself play every day so it happens in much smaller steps. We see you play on videos and time passes in between each one so it's obvious to me that you are making gains. Sometimes it seems like it's very slow just because you only see the daily slight increase. Trust me, it's there!

Your picking technique is very good. If you want to explore thumb/finger articulation, forget about the left hand for a minute. Just take it off the guitar. Plant your palm on the bride and don't let it move. Now using just your finger and thumb, try to touch the pick to each string going up and each one going down. That's a basic articulation drill
Todd

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Aug 7 2019, 07:15 AM

It's visible that you worked and believe me we see your huge progress more than you can imagine.
Todd has right, you have a very solid technique and I also like the fact that you play clean.

But....you still not make the movement that we looking for (it's true that your thumb it doesn't look so stiff anymore). In your video you keep the thumb finger bend, but your movements come from the wrist not from your thumb.
You need to block your wrist and let the thumb finger to make the job.


Make an experiment. Try when you practice in a slow tempo to not let your wrist to make any movement. Freeze your wrist and put your thumb finger to make a much wide movement than should be. Totally exaggerate with the thumb movement until you will get used to it. At some point your thumb will start to make automatically the motion in a correct way without to think at it. Have patience and things will start work.



Look, you have here a short demo from a lesson that I work. I play this at 200 bpm but this time I posted for you a demo at 175 bpm because it's much easy to see exactly my thumb movement. Also I zoomed the right hand. I'm not used to work in Adobe Premiere but I don't know how to zoom so much in other program. So if the image it's not perfect clear, please forgive me.
Be careful at my right hand when I start to play the run. I don't involve the wrist for movement. My thumb makes all the job and that's why I not even feel the speed.

Posted by: MisterM Aug 8 2019, 07:07 AM

Hi Todd Thank you for advices and encouragement.
I would do that



Hi Monica

I love your com - The translate with google is perferct - I understand all your advices.
Your take is amazing - Your thumb movement 00"05" to 00"08 is very very impressive, so perfect.
Your playing is now similar to the instructors.

I keep focus on it, I made a new take 50% to show you my thumb work -
Movement is more visible. I am aware of the lack of amplitude.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Aug 8 2019, 03:51 PM

Hi MisterM! I've been following your progress at the mentoring program and it's awesome mate. I know that it's difficult to notice our own improvements but you just have to check old videos and you'll see mate. I've seen old videos from you recently and there are lots of improvements regarding groove, dynamics, precision, speed, tone and much more.

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Aug 8 2019, 05:34 PM

It's great to hear that Google translate works in a good way and you can understand all I say.
If sometimes you don’t understand something, tell me and I will try to explain that thing in other ways. It's not a problem for me. Also, if words not work, I will make you a video to show you what I say.
I love your playing, your amazing takes, I know how much you work and if I can help you with something, I will do my best to find the perfect way to explain you.


Returning at your video.
You have right, at this speed the movement it's more visible and this time I saw exactly from where come the problem. Now it's easy to explain you how to fix this in a fast way.
I will tell you, from my point of view what you are doing wrong right now and how to solve the issue to make this works.
So, let's start with the beginning.


What you do wrong at this moment:
Your thumb makes a movement but it's not a constant one. Are moments when your thumb uses the same kind of position (bend or stretched) for two or free notes (first example is 0:05- 0:06).
Using an irregular movement for your thumb, will not let you to have a good coordination and will make impossible to keep this thumb movement under control.
I think the issue comes from a misunderstanding of thumb movement. That's why you still use the wrist to make the motions because are places where you use your thumb stretched to make the up strokes (example: transition between 0:13 - 0:14). This thing it forces you to use your wrist for movement.



How to fix the issue:
I will explain you how to see and how to think at this thumb movement in a very easy way.

As you know in alternate picking, for each note that we play we use a down and up movement. The key for this technique it's to never mess the picking direction.

When we use the thumb joint movement, in your mind you must keep this:
- for each down stroke pick, you will stretch your thumb
- for each up stroke pick, you will bend your thumb

Your thumb must make a movement on each note that you play. It's the same thinking as for alternate picking but instead to have in mind: down, up, down up, you should think at your thumb with: stretch, bend, stretch, bend (for each note…..stretch thumb for down stroke and bend thumb for up stroke). The direction of thumb movement is the key. Respecting this, you will get a correct and regular motion for your thumb.

It's perfect how you made between 0:11 -0:12 – that kind of movement should make the thumb.




To be sure that you will limit your wrist movements, you can try to do this:

Put your right hand in the palm muting position. For the beginning don't let your hand to move from that place. Keep your wrist blocked. Play only moving your thumb and index finger. The next free fingers (pinky, ring and middle finger) should stay motionless.

First time you will not feel this comfortable. You will have the feeling that you are not able to play nothing in this way. It will be like a fight, where your wrist unconscious will want to make the move that it knows, and your mind which must force the wrist to stay blocked.
When the thumb will get used with the movement, all the weird feeling it will disappear. You will see all the things from a different perspective. One, that will allow you to reach impressive speeds with minimum of effort.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 8 2019, 09:33 PM

Spot on! This is very similar to the advice I gave as well. It's about planting the palm and not letting it move. This forces the thumb to adapt to reach and strike a string. It's a basic articulation drill that helped me quite a bit which is why I suggested it here. I think it may require a video as text alone may not be enough. I"ll record a video example.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 8 2019, 11:29 PM

Here is close up vid of just picking on one string using the thumb method. Give this a look and let me know if it makes sense

Posted by: MisterM Aug 9 2019, 02:01 PM

Thank you Monica Thank you Todd

I undestand my mistake
I'll try to correct that. I'll make a new take soon

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Aug 9 2019, 02:33 PM

Just to echo what's been said here. Your progress is amazing - and if you could practice by doing exactly what Monica explained and Todd showed in his video - you would be nailing your specific "problem" area.

Posted by: MisterM Aug 12 2019, 09:42 AM

Hi

my thumb does not have the necessary amplitude but progress will come from working.
However, the small progress gives me the feeling that it’s a little easier to play

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Aug 12 2019, 12:22 PM

Judging after the fact that have passed only few days from your last post, I can say that you definitely made a big improvement. Your thumb looks better because you eliminated that irregular movement. This is an awesome thing.
Also you achieved a relaxing in playing and I like this very much.


Now the main problem that does not let you to achieve this thumb joint movement in a correct way, still remains your wrist. In your video you use the wrist for the movement and this should not happen.
As Todd showed you in his video, his wrist stay blocked and only the thumb do the job.


Try to work on this area. Force your wrist to not make any move. Probably you will need to make a little more visible the stretch and bend movement of your thumb. At this moment you minimized this thumb movement but not because of the speed, because of your wrist which still make the motion.


One more thing. I want to assure myself that I pointed everything to not let any misunderstanding to occur.

In Vivaldi Winter Arpeggios lesson, Cosmin don't use the thumb movement. So, if you compare your take with original take made by Cosmin, keep in mind that your wrist should not make the same motion as in the Cosmin's take.
You work at a different technique which can be used in many situations including the lesson made by Cosmin.
If I remember well, instructors mentioned about the thumb joint movement when you posted in REC "Triplet Etude". But there Piotr use the thumb movement and his wrist and pinky finger stay in the same place entire lesson.
I wanted to mention this to be sure that you not take as reference how Cosmin move the wrist.

Posted by: MisterM Aug 12 2019, 01:13 PM

Hi Monica

I understood the mechanism but it is not easy to apply
I know that in this lesson Cosmin doesn't use this technique but I try to apply it on the alternate picking to train me.
I also have problems of timing and accentuation that I need to improve

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 13 2019, 01:49 AM

I"Ve got something else for you to try. This is a lick that will be coming up soon in QUICK LICKS and it's based on using THUMB/FINGER articulation. Perhaps the vivaldi piece is not the best idea to work on this technique as it's a VERY complex piece that requires much of your brain to think about notes. Try this. I"m playing pretty slow. Let me know if you need tablature. This lick is only three fretted notes. It's the same notes that move down a whole step then back up. It will give you space to focus on your picking instead of on hitting 1,000 different notes all over the neck. Isolation is often the key element when working on new techniques. That vivaldi piece will NOT let you isolate anything IMHO as it's just to complicated. It's a great piece, but way to much for just working on thumb articulation imho. Have a look at this. Sorry for the poor quality, this is a raw cell phone video that I make to remind myself what to record next for quick licks.

*You can use any strike pattern that works for you. Also, if you need to wag the wrist a pinch to reach the next string, try to change the angle of the hand instead of using the wrist for movement. If a pinch of wrist sneaks in, it's ok, just play slow and try to see how much of your thumb/finger you can use and how little of your wrist you can use.

Posted by: MisterM Aug 13 2019, 05:12 AM

Hi Todd

Ok I will try, I will make a take to show you my work
Yes I'll like have a tab if you can - this will help me understand the beat

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 14 2019, 12:26 AM

Sure thing Here ya go. Tablature and tab file for guitar pro. This is just one position. Play it on a loop. After you get used to it, at the loop point at the end of the second bar, move it down a whole step. This is not a requirement, just something to try after, I repeat, after, you can use your thumb to articulate most of the pick strikes. Forget about speed. Play it at 5 BPM if you have to. Form is what matters here
 thumbarticulation.gp5 ( 1.95K ) : 92

Posted by: MisterM Aug 15 2019, 08:24 AM

Thank you Todd

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 16 2019, 04:07 AM

Happy to Help!! I'll make a better video when I shoot for Quick LIcks, this is just to remind me not to forget the lick It's a very fun lick! Once you can play it at 240bpm without missing any strikes, you've arrived!
Todd

Posted by: MisterM Aug 16 2019, 06:59 AM

Hi Todd

I trained yesterday, difficult to apply correctly palm mute as "tab"
Very funny, I like it

I should make a take soon to show you my thumb work

Posted by: MisterM Aug 16 2019, 04:19 PM

Hi Todd

I made a take with bass line
I love very much this gimmick, it's crazy.

My thumb isn't more articulate but it's so funny

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 17 2019, 01:04 AM

Glad you like it!!! It's actually part of a Song I was writing. I realized it made a great hand drill SO I thought I'd use it in Quick Licks! Looks like you added a connecting note which is fine. You can just take the whole thing and move it down 2 frets as well, then move 2 frets down again, then 1 fret and you've got the entire intro for the song it's a great riff for working on picking!! It's very hard to prevent string noise on this so it's a great one for muting as well! I"m very impressed that you are able to play it cleanly at this speed! I sometimes get lost in it and hit a wrong note now and then. It's almost like the pattern mesmerizes your brain and my fingers forget which string is next. Took me a good bit of practice to play this smoothly.

As for your thumb, I do see it trying to work it's magic! Your wrist is doing a lot of the work here. There is no crime in picking from the wrist. It looks like you are using a combo of both and learning on the wrist which is fine Try it at a really slow speed and don't let you hand/wrist move at all, which will force your fingers to do the articulation.
Todd

Posted by: MisterM Aug 17 2019, 09:38 AM

Hi Todd

Yes I should work slowly.


Hi there,

This morning, I played with the metronome’s help.
I tried not to put too much pressure on the pick

I added a phaser, because I can’t get the sound of Cosmin
I think it’s kind of cool

I’m starting to think about a take for the REC Section

What do you think about it ?

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 17 2019, 10:12 AM

I can tell your speed has increased thats for sure! You are not lagging like you were in the previous vid but it did sound like you missed a few notes entirely, e.g. a very short gap where it sounds like a note should have been but it didn't get strike or hammered strongly enough. You are getting closer on this! I think your other thumb work is actually helping on this one. Your picking now is a bit faster that your fretting hand. The parts that are hammer on have to be strongly hammered to make as much noise as the notes that are picked. The best way to work on this IMHO is to take the picking hand out of the equation and do a few LEFT HAND ONLY drills to work on finger power.

Thankfully I have 3 such drills ready to go. Quick Licks 90 is the first one.

Posted by: MisterM Aug 17 2019, 05:06 PM

Thank you Todd

Final section is very diffcult.
I prefer to work my legato and Hammer-on/Pull off with other exercises.
I don't love this kind of exercise, I don't feel it.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 17 2019, 10:33 PM

No worries The picking drill seemed to help you quite a bit. It's the isolation that helps the most. The picking drill isolates picking. Find a legato drill that you do like but try to do it with one hand at least part of the time. Not being able to do legato hammer ons/pull offs with one hand indicates your finger power is not what is should be to play a piece like the vivaldi one. You've got your picking hand up to snuff. Time to work on your fretting hand a bit imho. Once you get a bit more power in your fretting hand, the picked and non picked notes will all sound very similar while using palm mute. Then you will be ready for the REC!

Todd

Posted by: MisterM Nov 26 2019, 11:34 AM

Hi

New take, Very difficult to improve it

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 27 2019, 05:19 AM

It's sounding very spiff! I did notice about 7 second and about 13 seconds that there is a pinch of bleed between notes where it sounds more like a two tone chord and less like individual notes in an arpeggio. When playing at speed, it can be very tough to shift the pressure on the fretting hand fast enough to prevent more than one note from sounding at a time when playing an arppeggio. The way people typically fix this is with the planted palm mute technique we talked about earlier where the palm never lifts from the bridge. That way the notes are muted by the picking hand so that even if a full D chord is fretted, it can still sound like one note at a time is all that is being fretted.

This goes back to the bit about planting your palm on the bridge for a strong string mute and using just your thumb/first finger to move the pick. It's "Picking while muting".

However, your take is GREAT and I'd give you an 8 if i graded it myself right now. So you are doing great and have nothing to worry about to be honest. It's a very very small issue and I probably would not have noticed it had I not heard this same piece before. I only mention it as I don't see much else that could be fixed it's a very strong take.


Todd

Your

Posted by: DeGroot Nov 28 2019, 12:01 AM

Very nice work!! I still practice this lesson from time to time because it is a great alt. picking exercise and not boring to play. The trickiest part for me to play was the transition around :14-:16.

Posted by: MisterM Nov 28 2019, 07:42 AM

Hi Sarge,

Thank you for feedback, several section are very complicated about finger position.
I should try to improve palm muting.
I think submit to REC Section for december - if I feel it !



Hi Degroot


I watched the other guitarists.
I think your performance is the best.You have a very casual playing.

Mine is a little more tense. Speed has never been easy for me.
I hope that I will be able to relax to finalize this lesson

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 3 2019, 03:33 AM

KRIS and I have had this conversation about SPEED in another thread which you may have seen. I'd suggest trying both of our approaches.
1.)FOCUS %110 Percent. Over focus. Get your brain as focused as it can be then push it more. Krist will be ablet o further give suggestions.

2.)Don't focus at all. Use anything, I mean anything, (movie/tv/podcast/etc.) to get your mind off the fact that you are playing and let your subconscious mind take over and put your fingers on autopilot. Try NOT to think about playing at all. Give this a couple of hours of looping a tricky spot.

Putting both of these together may help Please let us know! :)Todd

Posted by: MisterM Dec 5 2019, 12:35 PM

Thank for advices todd

I post on REC Section

Wait and see