Studios Abandoning Mic.ing Cab.s Options

[Mertay]

Had a chat with 2 guys in my luthiers place today, both will be releasing album and video's soon. They worked with different studios, labels and production companies.

Both said the studios they went had a hard time mic.ing the cab.s, specially for tight distortion sounds (phase issues). Finally, one went lineout+ir and the other used the studios kemper and axe fx...

When asked, I realized they were newer studios run by younger engineers. Then I explained a good guitar sound from a studio is equal to the experience of the engineer (less trial and error need for the experienced).

But the younger engineers abandoning the use of real cab.s to me is not cool. Keeping a good amp+cab. just for rehearsal purposes or marketing is something anyone can do. In the past, a "sound" of an album or studio was what made those engineers studio preferable. If every studio is going to abandon that goal in the future then the purpose of a studio to exist has no meaning.

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[Gabriel Leopardi]

Technology makes the things more accesible for everyone and I don't see how this can be a negative situation. In the end, the most important thing will be how the human factor and how creative we are dealing with modern and vintage technologies. I don't think that evolution is a bad thing.

I'm honestly excited.

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[klasaine]

Probably has as much to do with available 'space' as with anything else.
Most of the young guys and gals that record/produce out here still like to mic amps, use vintage keyboards and synths, etc. We generally have the space to accommodate that.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 22 2018, 06:26 PM

[Todd Simpson]

The democratization of technology has truly revolutionized the Music industry among others. Some argue it killed the music biz as we knew it and there is some truth to that, but it also created an entirely new world in terms of music where anyone with a laptop can create quality sounding music (production wise) and share it with the world. So it's a give and take

You are correct though that traditional Studios are in a bit of a tough spot. Bands are recording themselves more than ever and the folks working in studios now, the younger folks anyway, are using many of the same tools that we use at home. Micing up a guitar cab is becoming a lost art. When you can get a killer tone direct from a KEMPER that already sounds like a great amp/cab miced by a professional, it's hard to justify the time (time is money after all in a studio) it takes to actually mic up a cab. For anyone that has done it, getting a miced cab to cut through a mix takes a bit of work and just loading a preset is just easier and quicker. Also, space can be an issue as ken mentioned. Not every studio has a great sounding room to put a guitar rig in. Even if they do have a room, they might not have the staff to make it. In places like L.A. New York and Nashville, you have a high concentration of traditional studios and the best talent around. The rest of the country, not as much.

However, we also start running in to that problem I was talking about in another thread, the uniformity of sound. Because so many people are sharing/buying/using so many of the same Preset packs, (lasse lammert mentioned seeing his Kemper presets at nearly every booth at Namm) we run the risk of having recordings starting to sound the same and bands starting to sound the same.

So while quality production is easier than ever to come by, "ORIGINAL SOUNDING" production seems more rare than ever. Creating something that sounds new takes time, effort, skill, and good ears. That's the challenge that faces us as musicians. Not how do we make a recording sound good, but how do we make it sound unique.

Todd

Had a chat with 2 guys in my luthiers place today, both will be releasing album and video's soon. They worked with different studios, labels and production companies.

Both said the studios they went had a hard time mic.ing the cab.s, specially for tight distortion sounds (phase issues). Finally, one went lineout+ir and the other used the studios kemper and axe fx...

When asked, I realized they were newer studios run by younger engineers. Then I explained a good guitar sound from a studio is equal to the experience of the engineer (less trial and error need for the experienced).

But the younger engineers abandoning the use of real cab.s to me is not cool. Keeping a good amp+cab. just for rehearsal purposes or marketing is something anyone can do. In the past, a "sound" of an album or studio was what made those engineers studio preferable. If every studio is going to abandon that goal in the future then the purpose of a studio to exist has no meaning.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Feb 22 2018, 06:34 PM

[Mertay]

...

My idea of a good engineer (if I'm not going to record at home and ready to pay) isn't placing an sm57 and call it a day, using multi-mic.s or cab.s (if possible in a high ceiling room) to blend a sound+collab. work with the engineer can bring a very original sound. And this is a not so expensive studio example, high-end studios offer vintage amps or ready to record (isolated) cab.s etc...

I mean, whats the point going to a studio anyway if the experience isn't anything near like this? What bothered more was does no one cares anymore to have at least some level of original/signature sound?

Probably has as much to do with available 'space' as with anything else.
Most of the young guys and gals that record/produce out here still like to mic amps, use vintage keyboards and synths, etc. We generally have the space to accommodate that.

I'm ok with a studio being affordable and not have much room for sonic options, also cool with blending vst or processors into a guitar sound. But not being able to get a half-decent sound from an amp, then jumping to a Kemper is just lazy...I personally would feel very embarrest if I were the studio engineer, you have 1 job and mostly record guitars yet fail...

The democratization of technology has truly revolutionized the Music industry among others. Some argue it killed the music biz as we knew it and there is some truth to that, but it also created an entirely new world in terms of music where anyone with a laptop can create quality sounding music (production wise) and share it with the world. So it's a give and take

You are correct though that traditional Studios are in a bit of a tough spot. Bands are recording themselves more than ever and the folks working in studios now, the younger folks anyway, are using many of the same tools that we use at home. Micing up a guitar cab is becoming a lost art. When you can get a killer tone direct from a KEMPER that already sounds like a great amp/cab miced by a professional, it's hard to justify the time (time is money after all in a studio) it takes to actually mic up a cab. For anyone that has done it, getting a miced cab to cut through a mix takes a bit of work and just loading a preset is just easier and quicker. Also, space can be an issue as ken mentioned. Not every studio has a great sounding room to put a guitar rig in. Even if they do have a room, they might not have the staff to make it. In places like L.A. New York and Nashville, you have a high concentration of traditional studios and the best talent around. The rest of the country, not as much.

However, we also start running in to that problem I was talking about in another thread, the uniformity of sound. Because so many people are sharing/buying/using so many of the same Preset packs, (lasse lammert mentioned seeing his Kemper presets at nearly every booth at Namm) we run the risk of having recordings starting to sound the same and bands starting to sound the same.

So while quality production is easier than ever to come by, "ORIGINAL SOUNDING" production seems more rare than ever. Creating something that sounds new takes time, effort, skill, and good ears. That's the challenge that faces us as musicians. Not how do we make a recording sound good, but how do we make it sound unique.

Todd

+1

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[Gabriel Leopardi]

My idea of a good engineer (if I'm not going to record at home and ready to pay) isn't placing an sm57 and call it a day, using multi-mic.s or cab.s (if possible in a high ceiling room) to blend a sound+collab. work with the engineer can bring a very original sound. And this is a not so expensive studio example, high-end studios offer vintage amps or ready to record (isolated) cab.s etc...

I mean, whats the point going to a studio anyway if the experience isn't anything near like this? What bothered more was does no one cares anymore to have at least some level of original/signature sound?

You'll still have the possibility of going for that kind of engineer, studio and or production while you'll also have new approaches and horizons, who can predict where all this is going.

The lack of originality in sound was also happening during the 80's, 90's, 00's, so it's not related to new technologies. What about all those hair/glam metal bands from the 80's that sounding like the same band, the same for the post grunge bands, or even New Metal or Pop Punk ones.

On the other hand, I don't think that Fractal or Kemper will make guitar amps extinct, there will always be a market for them, and there will be always producers and musicians that preffer the real thing.

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[Mertay]

You'll still have the possibility of going for that kind of engineer, studio and or production while you'll also have new approaches and horizons, who can predict where all this is going.

If I understand your sentence correct, you're describing a producer. You don't have to go to a studio to work with a producer.

The lack of originality in sound was also happening during the 80's, 90's, 00's, so it's not related to new technologies. What about all those hair/glam metal bands from the 80's that sounding like the same band, the same for the post grunge bands, or even New Metal or Pop Punk ones.

Actually its the other way around, someone found an original sound and others copyed it to the death but in this situation, there isn't even a chance for anything to be original (only speaking sound, I don't mean artistic or compositional) to begin with.

On the other hand, I don't think that Fractal or Kemper will make guitar amps extinct, there will always be a market for them, and there will be always producers and musicians that preffer the real thing.

I'm cool with that, and might be one of the most active followers of new tech. here in GMC. The problem isn't the tools or how we use them at home but a commercial studio becoming no better than a home studio in the scenario I described.

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[klasaine]

I've recorded live guitar in every manner of 'space' you could imagine from 'Sunset Sound' and 'Capitol Records' to an apartment's tiny bathroom, a closet, in the bedroom with the computer or the kitchen, etc. It's just not that hard to get a good guitar sound (clean or dirty) regardless of the space or the mic.

Believe me, I completely understand doing EVERYTHING in the box if you truly are dealing with a college dorm room sized functional space but if you even just have a tiny closet, you can turn it into an iso booth even if it's just for 3 hours. If you're serious, take the clothes and crap out of it for a day or two. That's what everybody did/does.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 23 2018, 03:19 PM

[Rammikin]

If every studio is going to abandon that goal in the future then the purpose of a studio to exist has no meaning.

If you look at how many studios in LA have closed in the past 10 years, it's clear that, for many projects, the purpose of a studio has disappeared. Yes, there is magic in some famous studios, but there's magic to be found everywhere if you know how to look for it.

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[Mertay]

Different question then just because I'm curious; When was the last time anyone discussed, commented or even appreciated the "sound" of an album?

But it must be clear its not about artistic, compositional or individual instrument by what I mean by sound. For example, it was most argued among my friends who were into electronica (like running them through vintage recording equipment, even noisey ones) while recording engineers usually prefer discussing dark side of the moon album.

PS; The term I use "sound" might be something else in USA or Europe? to further example of what I mean, like picking an album you'd like to listen on a super expensive hi-fi to appreciate the big picture.

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This post has been edited by Mertay: Feb 22 2018, 11:41 PM

[Todd Simpson]

I too mentioned the 80s glam metal thing previously. Same sort of situation. happens in every age. Someone gets a hit record, and everyone else wants to sound that way. With Meshuggah and Periphery, it's not even a hit record, just a decent amount of sales from touring. They certainly don't get any radio or mtv play here in the states. But it was enough to push most of metal through the same straw, the same way motley crue pushed most of metal through a can of hair spray and glitter during glam. Oddly,
they thought glam was the way to get people to stop copying what they had done on SHOUT AT THE DEVIL. For a while wads of Metal bands were looking exactly like early Motley Crue/Shout at the Devil, then they decided to start spending money on custom tailored outfits and expensive makeup. Sadly, it didn't stop everyone from copying the look and it got really silly. It's happened all the way back through the history of the music biz. Usually when it reaches critical mass, it's nearing it's Death Knell. Hopefully, we are close to the end of CORE/SCREAMO/etc.


Todd

You'll still have the possibility of going for that kind of engineer, studio and or production while you'll also have new approaches and horizons, who can predict where all this is going.

The lack of originality in sound was also happening during the 80's, 90's, 00's, so it's not related to new technologies. What about all those hair/glam metal bands from the 80's that sounding like the same band, the same for the post grunge bands, or even New Metal or Pop Punk ones.

On the other hand, I don't think that Fractal or Kemper will make guitar amps extinct, there will always be a market for them, and there will be always producers and musicians that preffer the real thing.

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[klasaine]

Different question then just because I'm curious; When was the last time anyone discussed, commented or even appreciated the "sound" of an album?

But it must be clear its not about artistic, compositional or individual instrument by what I mean by sound. For example, it was most argued among my friends who were into electronica (like running them through vintage recording equipment, even noisey ones) while recording engineers usually prefer discussing dark side of the moon album.

PS; The term I use "sound" might be something else in USA or Europe? to further example of what I mean, like picking an album you'd like to listen on a super expensive hi-fi to appreciate the big picture.

I do. All the time.
One of the things that bores me to tears with most recorded music in ALL genres post 2000 or so is that the records, most of them, 'sound' like shit. And a lot of the same shit at that.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 23 2018, 05:21 AM

[Phil66]

Different question then just because I'm curious; When was the last time anyone discussed, commented or even appreciated the "sound" of an album?

But it must be clear its not about artistic, compositional or individual instrument by what I mean by sound. For example, it was most argued among my friends who were into electronica (like running them through vintage recording equipment, even noisey ones) while recording engineers usually prefer discussing dark side of the moon album.

PS; The term I use "sound" might be something else in USA or Europe? to further example of what I mean, like picking an album you'd like to listen on a super expensive hi-fi to appreciate the big picture.

I do when something stands out as "good" or "bad" production. Especially when I pull something out like Couldn't Stand The Weather by Stevie Ray Vaughan, I love the production on that album.

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[Kristofer Dahl]

I do think traditional cab micing is - and probably always will be - an important tool for recording engineers. However there are also many other tools - many of which that involve digital manipulation of the guitar signal - that are just as important.

I think the most skilled engineers will be needing and using all tools at their disposal, depending on the situation.

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[PosterBoy]

I think it's inevitable the way records are tracked nowadays, and the dwindling budget to record. It's so much cheaper to be able to reamp and try different cab and mic IRs after the guitar etc has been recorded rather.

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[Rammikin]

PS; The term I use "sound" might be something else in USA or Europe?

Are you saying it might mean something different in Istanbul than it does in Izmir? . Seriously though, yes, I think that's the right word.

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[klasaine]

I think it's inevitable the way records are tracked nowadays, and the dwindling budget to record. It's so much cheaper to be able to reamp and try different cab and mic IRs after the guitar etc has been recorded rather.

Hence damn near every band having the same guitar sound. This directly relates to Todd's thread about modern metal guitar tones.
One plays to the sound. Or they should. It absolutely affects how a player approaches the song. Pick attack, note length, phrasing, dynamics, etc. Change the sound in post and the note lengths and dynamics change.
Re-amping has been around since the late 60s. Taking a pre recorded guitar (or bass or even drum) sound/part out of the board (via a reversed DI) and into a different amp (and rec'd on another track) is nothing new. Making it the modus operandi is one of the things that make all this shit so fucking boring and generic. Pick a sound. Commit. It'll sound better and be better. Have a 'sound'. People may actually want to listen.

*I would also argue that it's not cheaper.
1) constantly re-amping and/or scrolling though several dozens (to potentially 100s) of tones and IRs takes forever. And whether you feel it or not - time is money. 2) A decent amp, a couple of good ODs and an SM 57 aren't that expensive.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 24 2018, 05:05 PM

[Todd Simpson]

Sadly, most folks don's scroll through 100's of patches. Wads of folks buy the latest popular IR/Patch set for their device and pick the best sounding one. Bad news is everyone else who has that patch set tends to pick the same best sounding one and you end up with a LOT of people who are using exactly the same patch. So yeah, it can be quicker to grab a patch and go but it does end up with that same problem we keep talking about. Everybody sounding exactly the same.


As ken mentioned, every record since about 2000 has had an element of being "canned" about it. As budgets get decreased,
speed becomes a factor, folks use what is quick. Presets are there, folks pick the best one quickly and move on. The result is this effect of the "sound" of things being squeezed through the same straw. So folks, if you use software for tones, dig in to it and make them your own. NEVER use a preset without altering it. Ever.

Todd

Hence damn near every band having the same guitar sound. This directly relates to Todd's thread about modern metal guitar tones.
One plays to the sound. Or they should. It absolutely affects how a player approaches the song. Pick attack, note length, phrasing, dynamics, etc. Change the sound in post and the note lengths and dynamics change.
Re-amping has been around since the late 60s. Taking a pre recorded guitar (or bass or even drum) sound/part out of the board (via a reversed DI) and into a different amp (and rec'd on another track) is nothing new. Making it the modus operandi is one of the things that make all this shit so fucking boring and generic. Pick a sound. Commit. It'll sound better and be better. Have a 'sound'. People may actually want to listen.

*I would also argue that it's not cheaper.
1) constantly re-amping and/or scrolling though several dozens (to potentially 100s) of tones and IRs takes forever. And whether you feel it or not - time is money. 2) A decent amp, a couple of good ODs and an SM 57 aren't that expensive.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Feb 24 2018, 07:50 PM