Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

GMC Forum _ CHILL OUT _ Getting Fractal 3 Or Kemper....

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 5 2019, 02:52 PM

Hello guys.... another thread about this cool devices... laugh.gif

I've own Fractal AX8 which I love for recording, but mostly for playing live. I've finally sold my Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier Head because I wasn't using it anymore, so I'm planning to reinvest this money on any of these ideas....


Option 1: Selling my Ax8 and going for Fractal 3.

Why? Because I consider Fractal 3 is a more powerful device which brings more configurations and possibilities.



Option 2: Keeping my Ax8 for live playing and getting a Kemper for my studio.

Why? Because Ax8 is very comfortable for live playing, and it seems that Kemper is the best option for studio work (Amps market, Easier to modify and adjust while producing)


What do you think? smile.gif

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jul 5 2019, 03:23 PM

Without knowing what you live needs are, and without ever having tried an Axe FX - I still strongly urge you to go for option #2

Because I could not live without my kemper!

Posted by: Mertay Jul 5 2019, 03:36 PM

A special case and footswitch system will be needed for the FX3, also since powering won't be clean you'll need something that protects it from sudden voltage drops or bumps...it will make life harder for you compared to the AX8 and from a PA system I'm not hopeful if your sound will translate noticeably better.

Selecting between an axe-fx vs Kemper would mean homework for you smile.gif with listening demo's I always liked Kemper more but in studio mind the axe might be more comfortable.

Posted by: Madfish Jul 5 2019, 04:23 PM

How about upgrading your studio PC, getting a bunch of great VSTs and spending what's left on beer (or Fernet)?
Overloud came out with their rig profile loader in latest TH-U. You'd get both Kemper+Fractal in one piece of software. I know, it's not exactly Kemper nor Fractal ... smile.gif

Software approach surely has lots of benefits for the studio - cheaper to purchase, cheaper to upgrade, takes no space, no reamping.

Posted by: Mertay Jul 5 2019, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Madfish @ Jul 5 2019, 03:23 PM) *
...


Live performance sound being same/similar in concert is expected from audience.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 5 2019, 10:29 PM

Should be no problem with a few good plugins to be honest. smile.gif

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 5 2019, 04:09 PM) *
Live performance sound being same/similar in concert is expected from audience.


The AX8 is a killer unit for live work to be sure. The unit that is slated to replace it is a bit smaller. If you like the ax8, then this may be a good option. It's got the new algos that are part of the new fractal rack unit, but it's got the same floor unit approach (just smaller) like the ax8 which means you don't have to tote a rack unit, and a separate floor controller, and then power both of them.

For live work, many folks love the kemper. If you are an axe fx guy though, you may miss some of the routing/fx features that are just part of fractal product. The kemper is more about pure tone and being able to exactly replicate a given tube amp without having to carry the tube amp. The tone is impeccable but it does lack some of the FX/features/routing of the fractcal. Add an expression pedal and bam the fm3 might be your dream rig.


have you seen the fractcal FM3 news?

The Axe-Fx III's ARES amp modeling is built into the FM3, giving it more than 265 models and well over 2,000 speaker cab impulse responses
https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/behold-fractal-audios-new-fm3-compact-amp-modelermulti-effects-pedal


Posted by: Mertay Jul 5 2019, 11:29 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 5 2019, 09:29 PM) *
Should be no problem with a few good plugins to be honest. smile.gif


The Kemper in theory could sample plug-ins, considering if the converters are good results should be decent. With the axe-fx it would be a nightmare matching settings.

Also if Gab. blends amps/cab.s then things would be very difficult with Kemper. This is where axe-fx or Helix shines, you take the exact sound from the album to the stage.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 5 2019, 11:56 PM

I guess it would depend on the user and the gear. For example, my current fave pluging for guitar is OVERLOUD TH-U which has a sort of "kemperish" feature that samples rigs. However, even before that feature, I have always been able to just "earball" it and build presets that sound like whatever I'm trying to match. For example, my 11 rack and Myasnikov tube preamp combo, I had to spend several hours building an overloud th3 patch that could past muster. That way I could use the 11 or the plugin during recording and have it sound the same.
Beyond, the plugin issue, I think the OP is really looking for something to use LIVE, so plugins are probably not going to be his solution. The FM3 is really the best option here if he wants the new Fractal Algos while keeping a floor unit form factor. But we shall see smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 5 2019, 06:29 PM) *
The Kemper in theory could sample plug-ins, considering if the converters are good results should be decent. With the axe-fx it would be a nightmare matching settings.

Also if Gab. blends amps/cab.s then things would be very difficult with Kemper. This is where axe-fx or Helix shines, you take the exact sound from the album to the stage.

Posted by: Mertay Jul 6 2019, 12:13 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 5 2019, 10:56 PM) *
Beyond, the plugin issue, I think the OP is really looking for something to use LIVE, so plugins are probably not going to be his solution. The FM3 is really the best option here if he wants the new Fractal Algos while keeping a floor unit form factor. But we shall see smile.gif

Todd


Agreed, but considering it will be used for the next album the device having re-amping would be the next best thing to plug-ins for studio usage. It may be wise to check if the fm3 has that.

sort of out of topic but if it were for only gig's, I'd probably recommend a combo amp to be honest. I mentioned this before, PA guys make the best sound with X-amp+sm57. If any problem occurs with a processor, most of them will likely make things worse.

Posted by: Anese Jul 6 2019, 12:36 AM

What about option 3: Keep the axe 8 and get a the axe fx III : smile.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 6 2019, 06:49 AM

Sure smile.gif But he still needs a live rig essentially so plugins are probably not gonna be the way to go here from the sound of it. I love plugins don't get me wrong smile.gif Just sounds like he's needing a live box which is why I suggest the new mini floor fractal.Gabe didn't ask about amps much. Seemed he was really debating between the fractal and kemper for his live rig. I don't know if he uses an actual amp with his fractal or not. Good question though. I am not sure if he knows about the new smaller fractal floor unit, as it was only recently announced. It does look cool though !

Todd

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 5 2019, 07:13 PM) *
Agreed, but considering it will be used for the next album the device having re-amping would be the next best thing to plug-ins for studio usage. It may be wise to check if the fm3 has that.

sort of out of topic but if it were for only gig's, I'd probably recommend a combo amp to be honest. I mentioned this before, PA guys make the best sound with X-amp+sm57. If any problem occurs with a processor, most of them will likely make things worse.


There's always that! smile.gif I'm guessing the sale would be to fund the new purchase?

QUOTE (Anese @ Jul 5 2019, 07:36 PM) *
What about option 3: Keep the axe 8 and get a the axe fx III : smile.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 6 2019, 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 5 2019, 02:52 PM) *
Hello guys.... another thread about this cool devices... laugh.gif

I've own Fractal AX8 which I love for recording, but mostly for playing live. I've finally sold my Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier Head because I wasn't using it anymore, so I'm planning to reinvest this money on any of these ideas....


Option 1: Selling my Ax8 and going for Fractal 3.

Why? Because I consider Fractal 3 is a more powerful device which brings more configurations and possibilities.



Option 2: Keeping my Ax8 for live playing and getting a Kemper for my studio.

Why? Because Ax8 is very comfortable for live playing, and it seems that Kemper is the best option for studio work (Amps market, Easier to modify and adjust while producing)


What do you think? smile.gif
did you know if you invest 2000 a year from age 18 to 26 in an IRA at 12 percent and never put another penny in it after 26, at 62 you could retire a millionaire ... laugh.gif . sounds to me like the AX8 is enough , I would spend or save it on something else

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 6 2019, 05:00 PM

@KristoferDahl

For any reason, the quote option doesn't work with your post, but I wanted to say that I knew your answer here!! biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 5 2019, 11:36 AM) *
A special case and footswitch system will be needed for the FX3, also since powering won't be clean you'll need something that protects it from sudden voltage drops or bumps...it will make life harder for you compared to the AX8 and from a PA system I'm not hopeful if your sound will translate noticeably better.

Selecting between an axe-fx vs Kemper would mean homework for you smile.gif with listening demo's I always liked Kemper more but in studio mind the axe might be more comfortable.



yes, I agree with both things mate. FX3 seems more complex for live touring, and Kemper seems to be a more comfortable option for studio.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 6 2019, 05:02 PM

Here is a video of the new Fractal Floor Unit. Looks spiff! You already know how to use the editing interface on the unit and through the plugin I'm guessing?
BTW this is NOT my furry arm smile.gif

Gabe was really just asking the "TO BE OR NOT TO BE" question of our day, FRACTAL OR KEMPER?

Todd

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 6 2019, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Madfish @ Jul 5 2019, 12:23 PM) *
How about upgrading your studio PC, getting a bunch of great VSTs and spending what's left on beer (or Fernet)?
Overloud came out with their rig profile loader in latest TH-U. You'd get both Kemper+Fractal in one piece of software. I know, it's not exactly Kemper nor Fractal ... smile.gif

Software approach surely has lots of benefits for the studio - cheaper to purchase, cheaper to upgrade, takes no space, no reamping.



I still prefer hardware over plug ins when talking about Amp emulators. At this moment I prefer a processor specially designed for the amp emulator, an easier and more inspiring to manipulate device. I couldn't get tones as good as with my Fractal with plug ins yet.. I don't know why.



QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 5 2019, 06:29 PM) *
Should be no problem with a few good plugins to be honest. smile.gif

The AX8 is a killer unit for live work to be sure. The unit that is slated to replace it is a bit smaller. If you like the ax8, then this may be a good option. It's got the new algos that are part of the new fractal rack unit, but it's got the same floor unit approach (just smaller) like the ax8 which means you don't have to tote a rack unit, and a separate floor controller, and then power both of them.

For live work, many folks love the kemper. If you are an axe fx guy though, you may miss some of the routing/fx features that are just part of fractal product. The kemper is more about pure tone and being able to exactly replicate a given tube amp without having to carry the tube amp. The tone is impeccable but it does lack some of the FX/features/routing of the fractcal. Add an expression pedal and bam the fm3 might be your dream rig.


have you seen the fractcal FM3 news?

The Axe-Fx III's ARES amp modeling is built into the FM3, giving it more than 265 models and well over 2,000 speaker cab impulse responses
https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/behold-fractal-audios-new-fm3-compact-amp-modelermulti-effects-pedal




yes, this is very promising and it will be surely the best replace for Ax8. However, this one is not available yet and who knows when it will be since the wait list must be eternal. In the future I would have FM3 for live playing and Kemper for studio? or just FM3 for everything?? unsure.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 6 2019, 05:11 PM

For the studio, Some folks use both! smile.gif I guess if budget permits, you could use a kemper for AMP tone and a Fractal just for FX, sorta like John Petrucci Does (he uses Mesa Amps for Amp tone and fractal just for FX.

For live work, the AX that you have is such a great choice as it's one piece and does everything. The new smaller floor unit would make a great replacement imho once they become available. Like you say, having the Kemper to be able to provide every amp on Earth would sure be handy for the studio.


Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 6 2019, 12:05 PM) *
I still prefer hardware over plug ins when talking about Amp emulators. At this moment I prefer a processor specially designed for the amp emulator, an easier and more inspiring to manipulate device. I couldn't get tones as good as with my Fractal with plug ins yet.. I don't know why.






yes, this is very promising and it will be surely the best replace for Ax8. However, this one is not available yet and who knows when it will be since the wait list must be eternal. In the future I would have FM3 for live playing and Kemper for studio? or just FM3 for everything?? unsure.gif

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 6 2019, 05:23 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 6 2019, 02:49 AM) *
Sure smile.gif But he still needs a live rig essentially so plugins are probably not gonna be the way to go here from the sound of it. I love plugins don't get me wrong smile.gif Just sounds like he's needing a live box which is why I suggest the new mini floor fractal.Gabe didn't ask about amps much. Seemed he was really debating between the fractal and kemper for his live rig. I don't know if he uses an actual amp with his fractal or not. Good question though. I am not sure if he knows about the new smaller fractal floor unit, as it was only recently announced. It does look cool though !

Todd
There's always that! smile.gif I'm guessing the sale would be to fund the new purchase?



Thanks Todd and Mertay for the debate! smile.gif

I haven't been using an amp for the last year live. I use my fractal AX8 directly to PA, and inears for personal monitors most of the times. A few times I've used floor monitors, and any Amp as stage monitor (only the powerstage). I also own a small box that can be used as a poweramp in the case that I want to use a Cabinet.

Before that I've used my Amp (Dual Rectifier) and before that a JMC 900 for 20 years. I was a nightmare to take my amp and 4x12 cabinet everywhere. When I was on tour far from home, I couldn't take it so I ended playing with a different amp, in many cases a very bad sounding one.

I don't care about having exactly the same tone live than in studio if I can at least emulate the same type of amp or amps but I definitely prefer amp emulators over real amps nowadays for playing live in the type of places that I play.



QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 6 2019, 01:11 PM) *
For the studio, Some folks use both! smile.gif I guess if budget permits, you could use a kemper for AMP tone and a Fractal just for FX, sorta like John Petrucci Does (he uses Mesa Amps for Amp tone and fractal just for FX.

For live work, the AX that you have is such a great choice as it's one piece and does everything. The new smaller floor unit would make a great replacement imho once they become available. Like you say, having the Kemper to be able to provide every amp on Earth would sure be handy for the studio.


Todd



Yeah, combining both can be cool. There is a band here called Carajo, they sound really good live. Their guitarist is currently using Fractal for distortion and Kemper for cleans.


Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 6 2019, 06:25 PM

I figured as much smile.gif Yeah, it's just sorta pointless IMHO to tote/lug a back breaking amount of stage amps/gear around these days. Given how good the Fractal/Kemper units are, and how common it's become to just run direct and use in ear monitors, even carrying a combo amp around seems sorta pointless. Your fractcal unit has every amp/effect you are likely to need for a live situation and it's a great sounding unit, and the control pedal is built right in. In that way, it does have the kemper beat by just a bit. Not to mention the fractal has a handy app for creating/editing presets which the kemper still doesn't have as far as I'm aware.

Still, the kemper is the "Tone God" unit it seems. It's clean tones are killer since it's doing such a great job of replicating the best clean tones ever to come out of an amp. Sound guys are so accustomed to these types of rigs being used live that I didn't figure you'd have any issues, certainly not enough problems to merit trying to use a combo amp/microphone setup.


Toting both the kemper and fractal around for live work would sound great to be sure, but starts getting back in to toting more gear around than is needed. For live work, your current fractcal and it's impending new smaller fractcal floor unit still seem like the ideal choice imho.

Having a kemper for recording and even as a backup unit perhaps would be nice to be sure smile.gif So it seems like a "would be nice" rather than a "gotta have one". But then again, who knows what your next tour will require?

Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 6 2019, 12:23 PM) *
Thanks Todd and Mertay for the debate! smile.gif

I haven't been using an amp for the last year live. I use my fractal AX8 directly to PA, and inears for personal monitors most of the times. A few times I've used floor monitors, and any Amp as stage monitor (only the powerstage). I also own a small box that can be used as a poweramp in the case that I want to use a Cabinet.

Before that I've used my Amp (Dual Rectifier) and before that a JMC 900 for 20 years. I was a nightmare to take my amp and 4x12 cabinet everywhere. When I was on tour far from home, I couldn't take it so I ended playing with a different amp, in many cases a very bad sounding one.

I don't care about having exactly the same tone live than in studio if I can at least emulate the same type of amp or amps but I definitely prefer amp emulators over real amps nowadays for playing live in the type of places that I play.






Yeah, combining both can be cool. There is a band here called Carajo, they sound really good live. Their guitarist is currently using Fractal for distortion and Kemper for cleans.


Posted by: PosterBoy Jul 9 2019, 10:30 AM

Going from the Axe Fx Ultra to the AX8 was an easy evolution for me, I new the basic interface and just needed to get used to the changes.

I imagine that would also make like easier going from the AX8 to the Axe FX III

If you can get the FX III for the studio and when the FM3 comes out buy that and the FC6 and sell the AX8 that would the best thing I imagine. Although I dread to think what the prices are like in Argentina

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 9 2019, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Jul 9 2019, 06:30 AM) *
Going from the Axe Fx Ultra to the AX8 was an easy evolution for me, I new the basic interface and just needed to get used to the changes.

I imagine that would also make like easier going from the AX8 to the Axe FX III

If you can get the FX III for the studio and when the FM3 comes out buy that and the FC6 and sell the AX8 that would the best thing I imagine. Although I dread to think what the prices are like in Argentina



This sounds good but prices are very high for all the new devices that's why I should also sell my AX8 to get FXIII. However, it's possible for me to get Kemper without selling AX8 by now.


Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 10 2019, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 9 2019, 06:03 PM) *
This sounds good but prices are very high for all the new devices that's why I should also sell my AX8 to get FXIII. However, it's possible for me to get Kemper without selling AX8 by now.

you have been bit ... hard ... someone call a doctor, stat

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 10 2019, 10:11 PM

You could always get the kemper, if that is workable in terms of money, and then use the AX and kemper together if you don't mind toting both around, and figure out if it's worth it. If not, you have the kemper ready for studio time. You can always add the FM3 later once they actually become available. Then you would have the AX3 algorithms and have a kemper as well. You could take one or both on the road. One could serve as a backup unit as both units can work stand alone. You would need a midi controller to switch presets on the kemper for live work in the even your ax was out of working order for some reason. I do see a lot of used kempers around these days. I don't know if this is the case in your country. They are still the same unit, essentially, as they always were so buying an older one doesn't cause any issues that I know of. The new ones did add features like rack mounting, and power amp, etc.


Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 9 2019, 01:03 PM) *
This sounds good but prices are very high for all the new devices that's why I should also sell my AX8 to get FXIII. However, it's possible for me to get Kemper without selling AX8 by now.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 14 2019, 07:15 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 10 2019, 04:41 PM) *
you have been bit ... hard ... someone call a doctor, stat



I didn't get it! unsure.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 14 2019, 11:48 PM

Bitten by the "Gear Bug". Symptoms: lust for new gear, heart increases rate at site of new and pricey bits of kit. Sweaty palms. Uncontrollable grin.

Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 14 2019, 02:15 AM) *
I didn't get it! unsure.gif

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 15 2019, 02:45 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 14 2019, 07:48 PM) *
Bitten by the "Gear Bug". Symptoms: lust for new gear, heart increases rate at site of new and pricey bits of kit. Sweaty palms. Uncontrollable grin.

Todd



ahhh hahah yeah! Most of us have been bitten!! hahah

However, I feel that this is a necessity for me nowadays since I use my AX8 for everything. I've sold every amp I've own, and I think that I'll be selling most of my pedals too. I'm all the time bringing my Fractal from the rehearsal room to my studio because I need that sound quality for both playing live and recording/producing. That's not comfortable at all, and with all the thefts that we have in our city, it's a big risk.


Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 16 2019, 05:04 AM

I'm with ya!!!! The cool thing about getting a kemper is that you can have every amp on earth right there in your studio at one time. You can create patches that are sonically similar to your ax8 patches and still have the flexibility to load profiles of any amp ever built. Then just leave the kemper in the studio and leave the fractal at rehearsal and always have a rig ready to go smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 15 2019, 09:45 AM) *
ahhh hahah yeah! Most of us have been bitten!! hahah

However, I feel that this is a necessity for me nowadays since I use my AX8 for everything. I've sold every amp I've own, and I think that I'll be selling most of my pedals too. I'm all the time bringing my Fractal from the rehearsal room to my studio because I need that sound quality for both playing live and recording/producing. That's not comfortable at all, and with all the thefts that we have in our city, it's a big risk.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 16 2019, 02:33 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 16 2019, 01:04 AM) *
I'm with ya!!!! The cool thing about getting a kemper is that you can have every amp on earth right there in your studio at one time. You can create patches that are sonically similar to your ax8 patches and still have the flexibility to load profiles of any amp ever built. Then just leave the kemper in the studio and leave the fractal at rehearsal and always have a rig ready to go smile.gif

Todd



That sounds great! I'm convinced! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 17 2019, 01:07 AM

At some point, when the new floor unit becomes more available, you
can always sell your ax8 and get the new floor unit to have all the newalgos and sounds from the ax3. Then you will still have the kemper back at
the studio. So your set up now and ready for the future smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 16 2019, 09:33 AM) *
That sounds great! I'm convinced! biggrin.gif

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)