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GMC Forum _ THEORY _ Interval Question

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 12 2018, 10:03 PM

Hello folks,

Can you tell me what the interval is in the first one please, I find it sounds very very sad if played slowly, either individual notes or letting the first note ring. Is the interval the same in the second TAB? I can't get my head around it as it's the same notes but one going down to A and one going up to A. The second one I still find sad but not as sad as the first, kind of like having a glimmer of hope but the sadness is still there. I hope this makes sense.

Thank you.

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Posted by: Phil66 Nov 12 2018, 11:21 PM

I'm guessing the interval will be different going down to A than it is going up to A as you're counting backwards instead of forwards. It's the first one a 4th and the second one some kind of 5th?

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 13 2018, 03:42 AM

Is there a gap string in between both of those? Sometimes easier to read in guitar pro tap. Both of those are diatonic (two notes) so the relationship between those two tones could be a variety of things if I read the chart correctly, since the notes in the middle are missing. Scales have the root and then some notes. The relationship between the root and each subsequent note, until the next octave of the root, is what defines the scale. Then again, Ken may be able to give it name from just those two or heck, maybe even just one!
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 12 2018, 06:21 PM)

I'm guessing the interval will be different going down to A than it is going up to A as you're counting backwards instead of forwards. It's the first one a 4th and the second one some kind of 5th?

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 13 2018, 08:39 AM

Thanks Todd,

Therein lies my lack of theory knowledge. I thought you somehow counted along the whole notes (not counting sharps and flats). The TAB is correct, no string between unless I've been a total numpty, I will double check this evening, my head is allo ver the place at the moment.

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 13 2018, 09:33 AM

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Seen from the the fourteenth fret you go down a fourth, but in relation to the twelfth fret you go up a fifth. I would probably hear it as the later.

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Seen from the lowest string you go up a fourth.

None of these sound sad to me, unless you are hearing some other bass note / harmony under them.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 13 2018, 09:57 AM

Yup, down a fourth, up a fifth in the first one. E down to A = 4th, A up to E = 5th.

Gotta agree with Kris though, these are very "neutral" in colour to me, and often you need a third note to really identify the "mood/colour".

You may recognize going up a 5th from the start of the Star Wars theme, and going up a fourth from the start of the Wedding theme.

Descending 5th is "FLINT-STONES, meet the FLINT-STONES". Can't think of a descending perfect 4th right now.

Did a little search. Descending perfect 4th could "Oh come all yet faithful" between "come" and "all".

Posted by: klasaine Nov 13 2018, 04:06 PM

+1 to all of the above.

As for the pensive v. hopeful impressions ...
Well, everyone reacts a little differently. Probably has to do with how you were "imprinted" as a wee one.

You're English. A lot of trad Celtic melodies, both major and minor, start with and utilise 4th and 5th interval jumps in their melodies. Bagpipe 'drones' are usually a 5th (or 4th) below the pipe melody. So much of that music tells a story of conflict or love lost, etc.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 13 2018, 07:36 PM

Thanks folks,

So the first one you count E D C B A with E being 1 and A being 5.
The second one you count E F G A where E=1 A=4.

Why don't we count the sharps/flats?

I'll record me playing them later just in case I'm doing something weird to get the sad sound or is it in my head?

Thanks

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 13 2018, 08:50 PM

As promised above, (see post immediately above this one if you missed it) here are those intervals how I've played them. To me, this sounds so very sad, even the 5th sounds sad. Apologies for the fret buzz, got to get the guitar set up.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/intervals-4-5

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 13 2018, 10:08 PM

As it's just a couple of notes, it's sounding fairly neutral on my ears? If you add some notes in between, to give the first and last notes some context, then it should start sounding a bit more or less happy If you follow the Minor pattern, it should sound sorta sad, and if you follow major, it should sound sorta happy.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 13 2018, 03:50 PM)

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 13 2018, 10:24 PM

I know what you're saying Todd but to me those first two notes sound especially down, maybe it's because they're descending, I don't know, it must just be me as everyone else is saying they're neutral. Maybe that's why my major minor question was confusing, because things that sound sad or happy to me, don't sound that way too others.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 13 2018, 10:27 PM

I guess some intervals do have different mood or color value. I have never thought about describing or ranking them from happiest through happy to neutral to sad to saddest, but it might be a good exercise. HOWEVER the thing is this:

The interval of a minor 3rd? When playing just those two notes, how do you know if they're the interval between the 3rd and 5th in a major chord, or between the root and the 3rd of a minor chord? You really do need the context of another note to appreciate and see the true colour.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 13 2018, 11:07 PM

No disrespect Ben but why do you need to know if they're the interval between the 3rd and 5th in a major chord, or between the root and the 3rd of a minor chord to decide whether they should make you feel happy or sad?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't get it, I want to understand why I'm the only one feeling that way with those two notes.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 14 2018, 01:58 AM

Well, what I'm trying to say is that of course you can identify an interval of a minor third for instance, but that minor third interval in a chord relation can be the bottom interval of a minor triad, or it can be the top interval of a major triad.

Minor triad = first a minor third, then a major third
Major triad = major third, then minor third

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 14 2018, 08:30 AM

I understand what you'e saying 100% buddy. I must just have a strange perception with the feeling of that particular interval. When I hear those first two notes, images of a lonely child looking out of a rainy window, or a dog tied up in a yard in the rain, and similar things come into my mind. Maybe that's why I get sad watching some films when others don't.

I guess it's all where theory, art and perception all clash. Plus I'm a theory numpty

And now this https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/31 has completely confused me as they don't count the first note as 1 which I thought you did or is that just scales and chords? So a perfect 2nd is 2 semitones, kinda makes sense, a major 3rd is 4 semitones, why not 3? A major 6th is NINE semitones??? At the moment it must seems like you have to commit to memory what the intervals are. Being a precision engineer I like to be able to work out HOW to work out what I need to know based on some basic info that can be used as a starting point. Maybe I'm missing the whole thing and should just forget it and wing everything so long as I know few notes.

Maybe one day I'll get one of those light bulb moments and feel stuoid for not getting it

Posted by: MonkeyDAthos Nov 14 2018, 09:44 AM

Tbh I think you are getting too lock up in the fact that an interval most evoke some sort of predefine feeling.

I had the hardest time recognizing specifically major thirds, because everyone used to tell me, Yeh happy sound.
But to me they sounded like nothing. So I couldn't really get an emotional connection with it as I did with the others intervals.

Nowadays I can hear it on the fly, but it's more mathematical process rather than feeling,

Funny enough I have always found the minor 6 the saddest interval and if you inverted it, you get a major 3.
I wonder if that's what been messing up my perception of happiness regarding it.

"a major 3rd is 4 semitones, why not 3?" 3 semitones it's still a 3rd just a minor rather than major.
The semitones its the unit of mesaurment and the interval name its the label. Just because you walked up 7 semitones doesn't mean you are playing a seventh.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 14 2018, 10:10 AM

QUOTE (MonkeyDAthos @ Nov 14 2018, 09:44 AM)

Just because you walked up 7 semitones doesn't mean you are playing a seventh.

Thanks Monkey, I think that's where I'm getting confused. I've I crack that nut I'll be OK. Sometimes I get it in my head that I want to understand what I'm playing for no other reason than I want to. I get obsessed with it and sometimes end up completely deflated

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 14 2018, 12:57 PM

Never mind this anyway. Longer post when I get home.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 14 2018, 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Nov 14 2018, 12:57 PM)

Never mind this anyway. Longer post when I get home.

???

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 14 2018, 02:41 PM

Okay, I try again! I was writing something but realized I had no time, and it was too long and intricate to write on the bus.

We have 12 notes in our note-system. Out of those notes we build scales based on certain "good sounding" intervals. The most common is probably the minor pentatonic, which is derived from the minor scale. You know the pentatonic one, I know, and maybe you also know the minor scale in that same position.

Each step between the 12 notes are a semitone apart, but we have 7 notes in our minor/major scale. That means we also have 7 intervals. Between two notes next to each other there will be either a semitone (half) or two semitones (whole).

When we combine notes and intervals, we get a certain "feel" or "mood". Typically we speak in minor or major. In a scale we will have more places that are a minor third apart or a major third apart. The interval in itself can of course generate a feeling, but it becomes much easier to both grasp that feeling and portray that feeling once we start speaking in chords or have more notes than two!

As with what I wrote in one of the posts above:
A major triad consists of a major third at the bottom and a minor third at the top.
A minor triad consists of a minor third at the bottom and a major third at the top.

You can try this out by looking at the intervals in C major and A minor:

C major:
C E G

First we have 4 steps (semitones) between the C and the E note. I'm sure you will recognize this interval and have played it many times. You could play the 8th fret on the E string and the 12th fret on the same string. This is a major 3rd.
Next we have 3 steps (semitones) between the E and the G. 12th fret and 15th fret on the E string. This is a minor 3rd.

That's our major chord. In a minor chord we start with the 3 steps apart, then the 4 steps apart. (On the low E string an A minor chord played note for note would be 5th fret, 8th fret and 12th fret).

Now this is why I say we need more than just 2 note to really determine the actual mood. We can hear the interval as a minor third or a major third, but there's no actual context. To me at least! That's how I percieve it.

I think maybe there may be some confusion in that we have 12 notes seperated into scales of 7 notes. The intervals determine the
specific scale's "mood". Do we have a minor or major third? Minor or major 7th? And so on. Of course there are the modes two, but there's no need to dive into that yet.

Maybe I have confused your question and confusion on these things, but regardless I hope this was of some use.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 14 2018, 08:54 PM

Thanks Ben,

It did help a little, I need to dig our my Music Theory For Dummies book. I still think my mind is funky in that I hear sadness when others don't, at risk of offending non-specific gender persons, maybe I'm just a big girl at heart and I can cry at anything.

Cheers buddy.

Phil

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 14 2018, 10:24 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 14 2018, 08:54 PM)

The gender-debate is a funky one. I'm trying my best to correct myself in a lot of the wordings and terms I grew up with. I still say "wrong" things at times, but hopefully we can all move to a healthy balance in that, which doesn't favor one or the other.

If I can help just a little bit, then I am happy!

I sent you a long PM by the way

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 14 2018, 11:49 PM

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Nov 14 2018, 10:24 PM)

I sent you a long PM by the way

Read it and answered it

Posted by: Adam M Jan 2 2019, 09:30 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 12 2018, 10:03 PM)

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I made an intervals map/cheat sheet using GMC's Scale Generator. It's how I was taught the intervals. I was taught up to 2 octaves and I see it makes sense, since there are Add13 chords out there

Hope this helps!

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 2 2019, 09:45 PM

Thanks Adam, I appreciate your help,

I assume that's for going up in pitch from the root? Say for when you're building chords?

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Adam M Jan 2 2019, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jan 2 2019, 09:45 PM)

Thanks Adam, I appreciate your help,

I assume that's for going up in pitch from the root? Say for when you're building chords?

Cheers

Phil

After the octave (8) everything repeats. If you subtract 7 from the interval, you get the regular interval. So a 10 becomes a third, 11 becomes a fourth, etc. Also, please remember it's all different between G string and B string - you need to go up 1 more fret than you'd normally go on strings E, A, D, G.

As for the chords, I'll explain using open G Major. As you can see, it's quite the same, as you play the Root higher by an octave, so in relation to the lowest Root it's higher than an octave, but for the next (higher in pitch) Root it's within an octave. Whichever version of G Major you play, you hit the basic notes it's made of. I'm not sure how to explain this more, so I hope someone can help me.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 2 2019, 10:55 PM

Now I'm confused lol. It's hard to explain things sometimes isn't it? I often struggle to explain things.

Thanks for trying buddy

Posted by: Adam M Jan 3 2019, 12:06 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jan 2 2019, 10:55 PM)

Now I'm confused lol. It's hard to explain things sometimes isn't it? I often struggle to explain things.

Thanks for trying buddy

I'm sorry for complicating things

As Others already explained, a Major triad (basic Major chord) consists of a Major 3rd + Minor 3rd (in that order) and Minor triad (basic Minor chord) consists of a Minor 3rd + Major 3rd.

A half step = 1 fret. Major 3rd is 4 half steps and Minor 3rd is 3 half steps. The first note of a chord is the Root. When you combine Major and Minor 3rd's, you get 7 half steps. 7 half steps equal a 5th.

In the example I used, G is the Root. Because it's G Major, there has to be a Major 3rd followed by a Minor 3rd. That means you count 4 half steps from the Root (on the diagram map it's marked as "3") and that note is B. Then you count 3 more half steps (from B, not G) and you get a 5th (marked as "5") and that note is D. It's exactly a G Major - it's notes are G - B - D).

Then, in my example, there is another G. So, the pattern repeats.

About the sad feeling, someone told me that descending notes (in pitch) generally create sad mood. Especially when you use a Minor scale. I guess if you reverse it, ascending notes should sound somehow happier. However, I don't think either of the intervals you posted sound sad.

I hope that clears up anything I said before

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 3 2019, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (Adam M @ Jan 3 2019, 11:06 AM)

I'm sorry for complicating things

About the sad feeling, someone told me that descending notes (in pitch) generally create sad mood. Especially when you use a Minor scale. I guess if you reverse it, ascending notes should sound somehow happier. However, I don't think either of the intervals you posted sound sad.

I hope that clears up anything I said before

It's not you complicating things buddy, I just need that light bulb moment to hit me.

They both sound sad to me, I think because, as you pointed out, going down in pitch can sound sad. These notes only sound sad to me when played in the order of the tab. If I play them as a double stop they don't. So long as I play one after the other in the TAB order they sound sad, even if I let the first note carry on ringing.

I guess this relates to my other thread about creative expression, and how to convey your feelings to others. I'll be playing what I think is sad and everyone else will be thinking I'm a happy bunny

Cheers

Phil