Another 2 Mass Shootings In One Weekend Options

[Todd Simpson]

Those are just the excuses that these mentally ill people latch on to. I'd assert that anyone who engages in the mass slaughter of innocent people is not mentally well. In fact, they are by definition, "Mentally Ill" as the mentally well simply do not go out on a killing spree. These people are urged to violence by propaganda outlets like INFO WARS

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state that white supremacy and xenophobia are not "mental illness".

Sadly there are currently no methods in place to actually prevent these mass shootings as evidenced by the fact that mass shootings are a regular thing here. We had 2 in a row just this past weekend. we are going to have a lot more. We have a lot of frustrated, out of work, under educated, angry white men with guns who get radicalized by propoganda like infowars.com and sites like 8chan. Then they grab a gun and go kill people. Remember the one nut job who brought his gun to a pizza parlor because there was a conspiracy theory that they had a under age sex dungeon in the basement? It was called "Pizza gate"
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/...t-is-pizzagate/
People get radicalized by this crazy bullcrap and then use it as an excuse to unleash their hate as violence.

I didn't mean for gun rights (I know its hot debate though), I mean about these kinds of crimes to prevent them.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Aug 6 2019, 12:43 AM

[Todd Simpson]

This is one of the "High capacity magazines" that are so controversial right now. Even if they were made illegal today, it would just create a black market for them, just as what happened when street drugs were declared illegal way back when. Supply and demand is at the root of our culture. So if folks want guns, or high capacity mags, they are going to get them, no matter what laws are on the books. This entire drama will just have to play itself out and hopefully our society will grow out of this violent phase. Ultimately, there are no laws that can stop this kind of thing. People will need to feel that they have a bright future, and embrace the idea of diversity and humanism. We are a long way from that right now.

I can't recall an incident where shooters weren't connected to a terrorist or some kind of evil organization.

I made a search about the Ohio weapon;

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/...=410&crop=1

Magazines seem custom (but likely sold 3.rd party product). It doesn't seem like a hunting weapon, if not also for war then what's the purpose? but as said the weapon is only a part of the story, I watched some USA channels and all they argue are guns and Trumps politics. I think it should be handled deeper than that.

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[klasaine]

always going off half cocked ... Ken

I prefer loose cannon.

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[AK Rich]

I can't recall an incident where shooters weren't connected to a terrorist or some kind of evil organization.

I made a search about the Ohio weapon;

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/...=410&crop=1

Magazines seem custom (but likely sold 3.rd party product). It doesn't seem like a hunting weapon, if not also for war then what's the purpose? but as said the weapon is only a part of the story, I watched some USA channels and all they argue are guns and Trumps politics. I think it should be handled deeper than that.

I don't see how you can make a distinction. A mass shooting is a mass shooting whether it is done by a terrorist or not in my view. In fact the El Paso shooting is being called an act of Domestic Terrorism and it has been suggested that it will be prosecuted as such.
Out of the top 5 deadliest mass shootings worldwide, none of them took place in the US.

1 Peshwar School Massacre, Peshwar Pakistan 2014. 149 victims
2 Garissa University Attack, Garissa Kenya 2015. 148 victims
3 Nov 2015 Paris Attacks. 130 victims
4 2011 Norway attacks, Oslo Norway. 77 victims
5 Westgate Shopping Mall attack, Nairobi Kenya. 67 victims

As far as weapons such as the AR-15 being used for hunting. They are indeed widely used for hunting small game as has been mentioned here already and is most likely the most popular rifle in the country right now. They are also widely used in home protection. I personally would not use that rifle to hunt because it is not suited for the type of game that I have or would hunt which are classified as big game.
As for a weapon of war. No soldier in his right mind would take that rifle into battle if he had a choice because he would be severely outgunned. The only semi auto weapons used by soldiers are either side arms, sniper rifles or shotguns in some cases for close quarter urban combat.

We lead the world in mass shootings by a HUGE margin. Just sharing the fact here. This is a chart up to before Trump hit the white house.

[attachment=48922:NA_CH404...04180908.jpg]
So yeah, we have way way way way more mass shootings than all of the rest of the world combined. It's an epidemic.
The most concerning thing is that we are having more and more each year. Here is a chart to show the alarming trend.
[attachment=48923:800px_Ma...hootings.png]

That is not a fact. It is a statistic, and statistics can be easily manipulated to show whatever you want.
I'll share some stats that contradict the ones you have shown and give you an article that explains the problems with many of those stats on Mass Shootings.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries...ngs-by-country/

https://nypost.com/2018/08/30/america-doesn...mass-shootings/

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Aug 6 2019, 03:50 AM

[jstcrsn]

We have a lot of frustrated, out of work, under educated, angry white men with guns who get radicalized by propoganda like infowars.com and sites like 8chan. Then they grab a gun and go kill people. Remember the one nut job who brought his gun to a pizza parlor because there was a consp

in that list you posted , there were whites, muslims , blacks and socialists that do mass shooting . I believe this is a mental issue not an Ideology . If one blames Ideology , and only one side , we could never get to the bottom of the problem . Yes I agree with you that we are in for trouble , but when you call a man with a penis a woman , how can one honestly make any truth statement to get to the bottom of anything . Society is so afraid to speak the truth so as not to offend someone , we are throwing all rationality out the window .
In a recent example, Mario said I am not sure if a three year old can determine their gender to the point that they can be given mind and body altering drugs that can affect them for the rest of their lives. He got crucified , but was he right . Three year olds can't drive ,can't have sex, can't drink liqueur , can't even wipe their own asses but people want to give drugs that will have consequences the likes of witch we have not seen and you want to talk about what is about to happen.
I am not mad , I mean no ill offense against anyone , to me , I am just speaking the truth
As long as truth , morals , Gender are all subjective , how can anything be wrong or anything be right

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[Todd Simpson]

Ill go out on a limb and say "MASS MURDER IS WRONG". No matter what.

The only cure I can see is to give those without hope, (the potential shooters) a sense of hope. A good job, a sense of self worth, and a desire to embrace other cultures. I don't know if this can be done. It's possible that we will have to wait an entire generation to see these mass shootings go away. Once minorities become the majority, which is going to happen in the next several decades, I think we will see much much stricter controls on weapons that can kill dozens of people before the shooter can be stopped. It will take the demographic change to take effect and majority voters become a minority block before this all becomes a reality imho. But time weill tell. For now, we just have to watch all this death happen.

in that list you posted , there were whites, muslims , blacks and socialists that do mass shooting . I believe this is a mental issue not an Ideology . If one blames Ideology , and only one side , we could never get to the bottom of the problem . Yes I agree with you that we are in for trouble , but when you call a man with a penis a woman , how can one honestly make any truth statement to get to the bottom of anything . Society is so afraid to speak the truth so as not to offend someone , we are throwing all rationality out the window .
In a recent example, Mario said I am not sure if a three year old can determine their gender to the point that they can be given mind and body altering drugs that can affect them for the rest of their lives. He got crucified , but was he right . Three year olds can't drive ,can't have sex, can't drink liqueur , can't even wipe their own asses but people want to give drugs that will have consequences the likes of witch we have not seen and you want to talk about what is about to happen.
I am not mad , I mean no ill offense against anyone , to me , I am just speaking the truth
As long as truth , morals , Gender are all subjective , how can anything be wrong or anything be right

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Aug 6 2019, 04:26 AM

[Mertay]

I don't see how you can make a distinction. A mass shooting is a mass shooting whether it is done by a terrorist or not in my view. In fact the El Paso shooting is being called an act of Domestic Terrorism and it has been suggested that it will be prosecuted as such.
Out of the top 5 deadliest mass shootings worldwide, none of them took place in the US.

1 Peshwar School Massacre, Peshwar Pakistan 2014. 149 victims
2 Garissa University Attack, Garissa Kenya 2015. 148 victims
3 Nov 2015 Paris Attacks. 130 victims
4 2011 Norway attacks, Oslo Norway. 77 victims
5 Westgate Shopping Mall attack, Nairobi Kenya. 67 victims

1-Connected to taliban
2-Connected to Al-shabab
3-Connected to Isis branch
4-This one is correct to our topic
5-Connected to Al-shabab

I agree the terminology is wide when saying "mass-shooting" but I think you understand whats mean't by or why its taken differently in such cases. If a terrorist group does a crime no one argues gun's but with such cases its the first rising topic in USA.

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This post has been edited by Mertay: Aug 6 2019, 02:39 PM

[AK Rich]

1-Connected to taliban
2-Connected to Al-shabab
3-Connected to Isis branch
4-This one is correct to our topic
5-Connected to Al-shabab

I agree the terminology is wide when saying "mass-shooting" but I think you understand whats mean't by or why its taken differently in such cases. If a terrorist group does a crime no one argues gun's but with such cases its the first rising topic in USA.

I guarantee you that it would not be taken differently in this country no matter who commits the mass shooting. There will be talk of gun restrictions among other topics either way. In this country, there would be no distinction. A mass shooting is a mass shooting period and screaming for more restriction would begin immediately. That is why I believe the list I have offered is a fair comparison.

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[jstcrsn]

I guarantee you that it would not be taken differently in this country no matter who commits the mass shooting. There will be talk of gun restrictions among other topics either way. In this country, there would be no distinction. A mass shooting is a mass shooting period and screaming for more restriction would begin immediately. That is why I believe the list I have offered is a fair comparison.

Can we all agree Video games are not the cause

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[Mertay]

Can we all agree Video games are not the cause

Maybe adjusting tax on guns as products could help?

Like, less tax is added the expensive stuff so professional hobbyist, hunter or basically productive adults can buy those without hurting the market. The cheaper stuff the like rifle used in the attack gets much more expensive, maybe aside tiny guns that can be carried in purses (that works more like tear gas for self defense). This can also be adopted for used market, exchange must need a permit of somesort that includes a tax depending on weapon class.

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[Todd Simpson]

We can't even get universal background checks (including gun shows) passed through congress, not to mention how fervent folks are against taxes. Combining a gun control measure with a tax has about zero chance of making it through congress sadly. Again, we will have to have the coming demographic change before things like this become a reality. Bad news is this won't happen until about 2045. Until then, parity in our voting populace is set to create the gridlock we've been seeing set to continue for quite a while. The good news is that the next generation will look back at this time and grieve for how silly we all were.

Maybe adjusting tax on guns as products could help?

Like, less tax is added the expensive stuff so professional hobbyist, hunter or basically productive adults can buy those without hurting the market. The cheaper stuff the like rifle used in the attack gets much more expensive, maybe aside tiny guns that can be carried in purses (that works more like tear gas for self defense). This can also be adopted for used market, exchange must need a permit of somesort that includes a tax depending on weapon class.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Aug 7 2019, 06:24 AM

[Todd Simpson]

When was there ever a time when truth, and morals were not subjective? What time frame are you talking about when truth/morals etc. were Objective and everyone agreed ?

As far as I'm aware, these things have always been subjective and open to debate? What are you talking about here? A time when Truth was absolute and everyone accepted the one pure truth?You are gonna need to give us a bit more info on that?

So your saying that until we get to a universal truth, that we can't say if anything is "wrong" or "right"?

in that list you posted , there were whites, muslims , blacks and socialists that do mass shooting . I believe this is a mental issue not an Ideology . If one blames Ideology , and only one side , we could never get to the bottom of the problem . Yes I agree with you that we are in for trouble , but when you call a man with a penis a woman , how can one honestly make any truth statement to get to the bottom of anything . Society is so afraid to speak the truth so as not to offend someone , we are throwing all rationality out the window .
In a recent example, Mario said I am not sure if a three year old can determine their gender to the point that they can be given mind and body altering drugs that can affect them for the rest of their lives. He got crucified , but was he right . Three year olds can't drive ,can't have sex, can't drink liqueur , can't even wipe their own asses but people want to give drugs that will have consequences the likes of witch we have not seen and you want to talk about what is about to happen.
I am not mad , I mean no ill offense against anyone , to me , I am just speaking the truth
As long as truth , morals , Gender are all subjective , how can anything be wrong or anything be right

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[AK Rich]

We can't even get universal background checks (including gun shows) passed through congress, not to mention how fervent folks are against taxes. Combining a gun control measure with a tax has about zero chance of making it through congress sadly. Again, we will have to have the coming demographic change before things like this become a reality. Bad news is this won't happen until about 2045. Until then, parity in our voting populace is set to create the gridlock we've been seeing set to continue for quite a while. The good news is that the next generation will look back at this time and grieve for how silly we all were.

I think most people in the states would agree that we already pay too much in federal, state and local taxes.

We already have universal background checks in place for firearm purchases including gun shows where the majority of vendors are licensed firearms dealers and are required by law to initiate the checks for every firearms purchase.

The only sales that do not require a background check are private sales and a person may only sell a limited amount of firearms in a given amount of time before they will need to become a licensed dealer by registering with ATF and adhere to background check laws.
Also private sales are not allowed for the purpose of income or to make a profit. A license is required for that by law.
There are a few states that require a background check for any and all firearm sales.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-j...e-laws-map.html

It seems to me that the majority of these shooting have been committed with a firearm that was legally purchased and I can't recall a single instance where one was committed with a firearm purchased from a private seller so I don't see how that is the problem.

I am not so sure that a changing demographic will affect the 2nd Amendment. There are plenty of immigrants and minorities who know the dangers of an overbearing government with too much power and recognize that the 2nd Amendment is a check on government from becoming overly tyrannical, not to mention the right to protect oneself, family and property.

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Aug 7 2019, 07:19 PM

[Mertay]

I think most people in the states would agree that we already pay too much in federal, state and local taxes.

We all around the world no matter the country feel that

It's kind of like car taxes; An expensive, more polluting car gets more tax while the cheaper, less polluting gets less (or even a discount. Now for guns, reverse that so makers will focus more on higher quality products with less tax discourage...in a way (in theory) in can actually be a win-win for everybody.

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[Todd Simpson]

My point about the demographic shift is not that it will change the constitution No need for all that. Also, it's prudent to point out that no ammount of small arms would be able to overthrow the "state" should it become "tyrannical". Back in the day of the founding, the only big difference was Cannons. Now the difference between citizen and govt firepower is massive. AR15s can't fight off drones with hell fire missiles. So the second amd. is a bit of a moot point imho. But that's not what I wanted to talk about.
The demographic change to come will impact all legislation and judiciary imho. When the country finally shifts to a minority / majority around 2045, Immigrant "rights" will probably be enshrined and protected by new legislation and backed up by new judges. The shift will create a new wave of law that will be favorable to the new demoraphy of our citizenry. Time will tell

I think most people in the states would agree that we already pay too much in federal, state and lominorities who know the dangers of an overbearing government with too much power and recognize that the 2nd Amendment is a check on government from becoming overly tyrannical, not to mention the right to protect oneself, family and property.

It's not a "win" for those paying the tax which is why it's got little chance of ever happening until at least around 2045. At that point, the last angry white voting block will have started to simply die of old age and the new Majority (people of color) will start voting other people of color and immigrant of first/second/third gen in to office. It's then that we will see some real change.

We all around the world no matter the country feel that

It's kind of like car taxes; An expensive, more polluting car gets more tax while the cheaper, less polluting gets less (or even a discount. Now for guns, reverse that so makers will focus more on higher quality products with less tax discourage...in a way (in theory) in can actually be a win-win for everybody.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Aug 7 2019, 09:38 PM

[klasaine]

I am not so sure that a changing demographic will affect the 2nd Amendment. There are plenty of immigrants and minorities who know the dangers of an overbearing government with too much power and recognize that the 2nd Amendment is a check on government from becoming overly tyrannical, not to mention the right to protect oneself, family and property.

I'm pro 2nd amendment but you can have as many (fully auto) AKs as you want and it ain't gonna stop the US govt. If they want to get you or stop you - good fucking luck hombre. The satellite controlled drones and robots, special ops, not too mention their shear firepower trumps (pun intended) any 'citizens militia'. Not too mention that every citizen uprising in this country's history - except the peaceful ones - has been put down by the federal government: Whiskey Rebellion, Shay's rebellion, Fries's Rebellion, the Civil War, etc.
I'm good with long guns and pistols for sport, hunting, collecting and personal protection at home but if you think you have a chance going up against the modern US military, successfully, you're delusional.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Aug 7 2019, 09:04 PM

[AK Rich]

I think the power of millions upon millions of people with small arms is being severely underestimated. The world has never seen the type of insurgency that could come about here with certain circumstances. An armed mass insurgency will most assuredly take control of larger arms and there is also the possibility of drone and sat tech being hacked or rendered useless because of lack of power and communication.
Also the assumption that the US military will all follow orders to attack citizens is not at all certain. It is very possible that large parts of the military will side with a civilian uprising or even overthrow government altogether. I don't think the government wants to find out just how ugly a conflict like that could get, I certainly don't. At any rate it would be the ugliest conflict this country has ever seen so hopefully we can avoid that.

If the 2nd amendment falls, then other amendments would be close behind such as the 1st Amendment which is already under attack in this country and the 4th Amendment probably wouldn't be far behind. The 2nd amendment is important because it insures that the other rights are protected.

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Aug 7 2019, 09:39 PM

[Mertay]

It's not a "win" for those paying the tax which is why it's got little chance of ever happening until at least around 2045.

I'm pretty sure till then those guys will have no jobs as China will take over the cheap gun's market of USA

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[Todd Simpson]

Not just the gun market Pretty much all manufacturing! The Dragon Rises Between that and the rise of automation, it's a good time to get an Enlish as a Second Lanuage (ESL) teaching certificate as it's one of our last big exports! Jobs go to where jobs are cheap and that ain't here. Eventually, even UBER will be entirely automated with no people driving. This will diplace tens of thousands of workers. Same thing for the trucking industry, and for warehouse jobs like AMAZON. This is part of what is causing all the civil unrest in my country. Many jobs are going away to cheaper places or being replaced by machines. It's left a chunk of our population under employed and angry and lookin for someone to blame. Thus we see the classic trope of "blame the immigrants" and a rise in "white nationalism". It's similar to what happened at the end of the Wiemar republic. Economic frustration often leads to a rise in xenophobia. Even though we are near full employment, the jobs are leaving people "under employed" which is to say, they have a job, they just can't afford live like they used to.

This thread is one of the most popular topics we have had in several weeks. It's a fine line to walk to keep it from being "political" and still talk about current issues. It's been an interesting thread to be sure!

I'm pretty sure till then those guys will have no jobs as China will take over the cheap gun's market of USA

This is an abstract conversation to be sure "What if" small arms vs drones.

If all of these anti immigrant folks with guns start acting collectively, the govt will start dealin with them like ISIS. This could lead to a serious erosion in our civil rights in the name of security. This is what I really hope does not happen.

I think the power of millions upon millions of people with small arms is being severely underestimated. The world has never seen the type of insurgency that could come about here with ceich is already under attack in this country and the 4th Amendment probably wouldn't be far behind. The 2nd amendment is important because it insures that the other rights are protected.

NAILED IT!! KEN you are SPOT ON imho. However, there are folks that simply reject what your saying. However, despite that, you are still spot on. If the govt declares you a "terrorist" you are gonna end up dead. Delusional at best is the idea that militia would stand a chance in hell against the govt. Despite this, there are entire message boards dedicated to the idea of civil militia and an entire movement of "preppers" who are prepping for society to collapse.

I'm pro 2nd amendment but you can have as many (fully auto) AKs as you want and it ain't gonna stop the US govt. If they want to get you or stop you - good fucking luck hombre. The satellite controlled drones and robots, special ops, not too mention their shear firepower trumps (pun intended) any 'citizens militia'. Not too mention that every citizen uprising in this country's history - except the peaceful ones - has been put down by the federal government: Whiskey Rebellion, Shay's rebellion, Fries's Rebellion, the Civil War, etc.
I'm good with long guns and pistols for sport, hunting, collecting and personal protection at home but if you think you have a chance going up against the modern US military, successfully, you're delusional.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Aug 7 2019, 10:42 PM

[klasaine]

Also the assumption that the US military will all follow orders to attack citizens is not at all certain. It is very possible that large parts of the military will side with a civilian uprising or even overthrow government altogether.

In the 243 years of there being a 'United States of America', the military has never sided with an insurgency. And in fact, every time there has been a rebellion or uprising or revolt (about 2 dozen if you include the civil war and the genocide of the Indians), the military has obeyed orders from our nation's capital ... every time.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Aug 8 2019, 01:02 AM