Chord Progression Query
Phil66
Oct 28 2021, 10:27 PM
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Do chord progressions have to follow numerical order? I'm working on a piece of music and I'm liking I v iv instead of I iv v it's this okay?

Also, what would this be called? Is it some kind of mode?cheers

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MonkeyDAthos
Oct 28 2021, 11:57 PM
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In my experience using numerical numbers, comes as mainly a fast way of communication, Yo lets I IV V in F or I IV V in Bb.

You can play whatever order you want, if thats your intent.

Some formulas are just more standard than others, but are all valid.

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 29 2021, 08:44 AM
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There is no required order, just some progressions that are used more than others. It's more of a way to describe a progression than a tool to write. But the more you write and analyse, the more you will realize what you like and how the various chords sound together. smile.gif

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Phil66
Oct 29 2021, 09:08 AM
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Thanks folks cool.gif

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Gabriel Leopardi
Oct 29 2021, 02:07 PM
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Well said guys!

I know that you started with this one Phil, but there you can find easy ways to build chord progressions in both minor and major keys, and other very useful composing tricks. The last lesson covers the most used chord progressions.

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/lessonser...ing-Essentials/

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 29 2021, 02:23 PM
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Just a quick further explanation, but I have to leave for football practice shortly, so very quick:

Numerics are more so a description used to explain the chords in the progression you've written or played. They are not rules as to follow.

Of course you can talk about chord functionalities in progressions. You can look up tonic-chords, sub-dominant chords and dominant chords.

Consider the difference between playing A7 to Dm than C to Dm.

There are no rules to go by as such. If you wanted to play A7 to Bb7 to B7 to C7 you could do that. Or C7 to A7 to B7 to Bb7. And then you also have numerics for those, such as I7, bII7, II7 and so on. The number (7) indicates that it is a 7th chord (dominant 7th in this example). But these are descriptions and not rules.

A lot of pop songs are I-IV-V progressions, sometimes with a vi-chord too in there. I.e. C-Am-F-G, this being I-vi-IV-V. Small numerals indicate minor chords. Maybe you wanted a different progression and you could use these numerals to describe those.

Sure, someone could say: "write a I-V-IV in the key of C" and you could think of different ways to play those C, G and F chords (inversions) and you could essentially consider that a "rule", but probably "demand" is the better word here. But in your own writing and creativity there should really not be any boundaries. If you want to fart the alphabet song in random order, then you do that smile.gif

As you could see in the C-Am-F-G progression they are not in numerical order. Essentially I-vi-IV-V.

If you had a progression in the key of A minor, maybe going A minor to D minor to C major you would write that as: i-iv-III. Notice how the roman numbers change to accomodate the minor tonality, but it shows that "home" is the i-chord - the A minor, that is.

Had the above been written with C major as the tonality it would look like this: vi-ii-I, which makes it less clear where the progression starts and what "home" is.

Short version: No rules, they're just used to describe your writing. Now go be creative smile.gif

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Phil66
Oct 29 2021, 06:43 PM
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Thanks Ben and Gab,

Yeah Gab I did make a start then life got a bit awkward as you know and I went off track then my Spotify thing happened so I'm in a bit of chaos at the moment laugh.gif

One further question, Ben said "If you had a progression in the key of A minor, maybe going A minor to D minor to C major you would write that as: i-iv-III. Notice how the roman numbers change to accomodate the minor tonality, but it shows that "home" is the i-chord - the A minor, that is.". Does the I(i) - chord have to be the key signature chord?

Thanks

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 29 2021, 06:43 PM


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Caelumamittendum
Oct 29 2021, 07:20 PM
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From my experience the I-chord, or i-chord if minor, is usually the tonality (key), but I think the overall goal is to find a notation that shows you how to play a piece the best possible way.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis#Modes

I do remember some of Muris' lessons about modes having a different kinda notation:
The mixolydian lesson was in A mixolydian, however the key signature was notated as A major, however A mixolydian comes from the D major tonality. I think the reason behind this was to indicate the b7-note in the sheet/notation. This means that whenever you see the G note (b7 in A mixolydian) it has a natural sign in front of it - "♮", meaning it's a G as found in A Mixolydian, and not the G# found A major. The key signature could probably also have been chosen as D major, but that can cause some confusion on describing the mode. I've seen tab books get around this by writing i.e. "A mixolydian" above the very first key signature sign, which might have been "D major".
As said, Muris did it a little different, indicating that we're in some kinda A-mode, but letting the natural sign in the notation show that it's mixolydian. Similarly in his Lydian lessons the key says "E major", but the sheet shows the #4-note (A#), which is not found in E major.

I think the general purpose of notating is to deliver as clear a message as you can to those who are playing your piece, whether that's yourself in 5 months or someone else.

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Phil66
Oct 29 2021, 07:59 PM
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Thanks Ben,

Not sure if I explained what I meant but if I'm playing in the key of Am, does the I(i) chord have to be Am? Is v i iv okay? In fact do I even have to play Am anywhere in the progression?

Thanks

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 29 2021, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 29 2021, 08:59 PM) *
Thanks Ben,

Not sure if I explained what I meant but if I'm playing in the key of Am, does the I(i) chord have to be Am? Is v i iv okay? In fact do I even have to play Am anywhere in the progression?

Thanks


If you're playing in A minor and have i-chord (v-i-iv), wouldn't that i-chord be A minor? But of course no one is forcing you to play an A minor chord, I hope. laugh.gif The thing is though, if you say: "So I'm in the key of A minor, let's play a i-chord, then a v-chord" people would recognize that as A minor to E minor.

But essentially, no, you don't HAVE to play an A minor chord if the tonality is A minor, but then you're probably not really playing in A minor, but rather a mode of A minor. Consider these chords: D minor, E minor, G major, F major. There's no A minor in there, but the chords still kinda come from the A minor tonality, right?

If I recall correctly this song in the following video is in F# minor, but isn't really playing the F# minor much. It's been a while since I saw the video, but I recall Doug explaining the "strange" part of this song, but generally if you're playing a progression in A minor then I suppose the A minor would be your i-chord. However, as seen in the picture I posted you have all the 7 modes of the major scale and in the key of A minor you would have E phrygian, F lydian and so on. If you're playing in E phrygian (which is A minor tonality) then you might not have A minor as your i-chord, but rather base your progression around the E minor chord going to the F major, and the E minor might be more "home" for the phrygian feel.

However, if you're in A aeolian then yeah, the A minor is the i-chord, The B diminished chord is ii-chord (I can't notate the o above the ii like in the chart here though), C major is the bIII and so on.




To sum up: You don't HAVE to play the A minor chord. Don't confuse the i- or I-chord with the "first chord of the progression", but maybe more as "home" of the feeling the song has. In jazz one of the most common progressions are the ii-V-I, and you see... that doesn't start with the I-chord, but the I-chord feels like "home".

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Phil66
Oct 29 2021, 08:45 PM
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Thanks Ben,

I realise I worded my question incorrectly but you got what I meant, I was meaning I(i) to be the 1st chord but then I wrote it down all wrong.

Thanks, I am now liberated cool.gif

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 29 2021, 10:26 PM


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Caelumamittendum
Oct 29 2021, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 29 2021, 09:45 PM) *
Thanks en,

I realise I worded my question incorrectly but you got what I meant, I was meaning I(i) to be the 1st chord but then I wrote it down all wrong.

Thanks, I am now liberated cool.gif


Honestly, in this part of your creative process, or from what I've heard/read/seen, I'd just focus on doing what you think sounds good and less about what "rules" there are. In my opinion it should be fun to compose music, not like a boxed in thing of feeling like you HAVE to use a certain progression, certain chords and so on. Of course there's merit to knowing these theoretical aspects of describing what you write, but don't box yourself in or limit your creative thinking. If you want to have a chord that uses all 12 notes, go for it! I think the key is to do it purposefully and with intent (which can come in many forms and shapes). cool.gif

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Phil66
Oct 29 2021, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 29 2021, 09:27 PM) *
Honestly, in this part of your creative process, or from what I've heard/read/seen, I'd just focus on doing what you think sounds good and less about what "rules" there are. In my opinion it should be fun to compose music, not like a boxed in thing of feeling like you HAVE to use a certain progression, certain chords and so on. Of course there's merit to knowing these theoretical aspects of describing what you write, but don't box yourself in or limit your creative thinking. If you want to have a chord that uses all 12 notes, go for it! I think the key is to do it purposefully and with intent (which can come in many forms and shapes). cool.gif



Thanks Ben

I understand what you say. If you read Gab's comment here https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=711280 from this thread https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...t=0&start=0 and Gab says pretty much the same.

Thanks for your help Ben, much appreciated.

On another note, after I've created my next one for my Serenity Dimension project https://open.spotify.com/album/27YX8maOWsTa...ource=copy-link would you like to collaborate with me? 50/50 split on any, if any payments?

Cheers

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 31 2021, 09:46 AM


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Caelumamittendum
Oct 29 2021, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 29 2021, 10:56 PM) *
Thanks Ben

I understand what you say. If you read Gab's comment here https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=711280 from this thread https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...t=0&start=0 and Gab says pretty much the same.

Thanks for your help Ben, much appreciated.

On another note, after I've created me next one for my Serenity Dimension project https://open.spotify.com/album/27YX8maOWsTa...ource=copy-link would you like to collaborate with me? 50/50 split on any, if any payments?

Cheers


Gab is wise, so no surprise there! biggrin.gif

And of course I'll collaborate... on one condition, which is that you keep the payments 100%, if there is any smile.gif Unless it goes viral and gets you 2 million GBP, in which case I'll take this: https://reverb.com/item/40476561-ibanez-r94...r-6-string-case ... but you keep the rest cool.gif laugh.gif

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Phil66
Oct 29 2021, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 29 2021, 10:04 PM) *
Gab is wise, so no surprise there! biggrin.gif

And of course I'll collaborate... on one condition, which is that you keep the payments 100%, if there is any smile.gif Unless it goes viral and gets you 2 million GBP, in which case I'll take this: https://reverb.com/item/40476561-ibanez-r94...r-6-string-case ... but you keep the rest cool.gif laugh.gif


Well you can have that and 50% because it would be your musical skills that would generate sales, not mine laugh.gif wink.gif

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Todd Simpson
Oct 30 2021, 08:48 PM
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I have to agree with Gabe and Ben. it really does come down to your ears and what you think sounds good much more so than
the actual theory behind it. You can play pretty much anything as long as it sounds good. Even if it's not correct in terms of music theory. I liked your latest song and hope to see it expanded a bit. smile.gif I think you and ben can come up with some really cool. so far, i don't think it's much beyond the one chord so choosing a second chord to modulate too would be step one. Most music is just a few chords. You can cover a lot of ground on just G, C, D, A and E chords of just about any type.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 29 2021, 05:17 PM) *
Well you can have that and 50% because it would be your musical skills that would generate sales, not mine laugh.gif wink.gif

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Phil66
Oct 30 2021, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 30 2021, 08:48 PM) *
I have to agree with Gabe and Ben. it really does come down to your ears and what you think sounds good much more so than
the actual theory behind it. You can play pretty much anything as long as it sounds good. Even if it's not correct in terms of music theory. I liked your latest song and hope to see it expanded a bit. smile.gif I think you and ben can come up with some really cool. so far, i don't think it's much beyond the one chord so choosing a second chord to modulate too would be step one. Most music is just a few chords. You can cover a lot of ground on just G, C, D, A and E chords of just about any type.


Thanks Todd,

As said, that piece "End Of Day" ("Lonely Desolation") was pulled from a Creativity Workshop and not, per se , created for relaxation, I used it as a springboard into Spotify. I'd like to do an expanded version one day so maybe Ben and I could work on that wink.gif

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Todd Simpson
Oct 30 2021, 10:21 PM
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Sounds like a plan! Great to see you on spotify smile.gif


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 30 2021, 04:45 PM) *
Thanks Todd,

As said, that piece "End Of Day" ("Lonely Desolation") was pulled from a Creativity Workshop and not, per se , created for relaxation, I used it as a springboard into Spotify. I'd like to do an expanded version one day so maybe Ben and I could work on that wink.gif

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