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Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 11:55 AM

Hi guys and welcome to final mix and comments for Play and Rest collaboration. This was our 5th in class type collaboration and there were total of 13 participants (including myself). The purpose of this collaboration was to teach you how to create rests or spacing in your solos. We as guitar players who (primarily) like rock/metal/instrumental music tend to put technique before melody. If you followed closely rules of this collaboration and practiced using play rest patterns you should be noticing some major improvements. In case you haven't worked enough on this topic I strongly advise you to go back and do your work over and over until resting becomes natural to your ear and you start hearing melodies that you play in your head.
Before I get to comments for each of you I would just like to suggest you to use this same approach over anything you work on! Here are some examples what I mean by that :

- One chord vamp (maybe Dominant 7th chord vamp or Minor 7th or any mode that you want to work on)
- Two chord vamp (here you can work on II V patterns or perhaps V to I or I to V etc)
- Three chord vamp (12 bar blues is best for this)
- Four or more chords ( this can be from section of a song all the way to whole songs and progressions)

Modes of accompaniment you could and should use :

- Metronome
- Backing tracks
- Another instrument (record yourself playing bass guitar roots for example or record just rhythm guitar so you can have another instrument as reference)
- Trio setting (record bass and drums and then you do your soloing over that)
- No accompaniment, rubato, free tempo (this pretty much means that you have to hear changes in your head without any reference and keep track of tempo on your own).


Final recommendation - RECORD EVERYTHING YOU PLAY! This should be very educational and helpful for your further improvement. You need to analyze your playing and be realistic of your past , current and future goals. Find out what are things that need work, isolate them, create exercises/practice plan for them and improve. It is as simple as that, all you have to do is have will and dedication to stick to it.


Hope this was very useful collaboration for you, enjoy the final mix and your comments. As always let me know if there are any questions !

For the first time I will divide comment into two categories for each one of you. Things I like and Things that need work. I hope you will like that approach but if you have any more questions feel free to ask here or via PM regarding your take.


berko (0:00 - 0:37)

Things that I like: Sound in 1st and 2nd section, your overal stylistic approach and you somewhat did great with play rest patterns.

Things that need work: Melodic approach (Eb over G min chord is avoid note and should be used as passing tone only). Technique needs some polishing, hammer ons and pull offs (legato) don't sound even and it reflects on phrasing ideas (on and off phrasing).

Conclusion: I wanted to hear specific play rest approach but you mixed different approach which is not what you were supposed to do. A lot of guys did this and I consider it to be not so great because I gave you instructions for a reason (to follow them). If I look at the play rest approaches you applied it sounds good but I wanted to grade on very specific approach (play one rest one or play two rest two, not both). Overall great sound and stylistic approach but melodic approach and technique need work.

Thank you Berko!


Caelumamittendum (0:37 - 1:12)

Things that I like: Melodic approach, development in the melodies, technique applied and phrasing.

Things that need work: Your sound (sounds like its in the background and you mentioned yourself that it doesn't work over this sort of backing) !

Conclusion : Like with previous take I wanted to hear specific play rest approach but you mixed play one rest one and play two rest two. I must say that you did really great job with that but regardless I just wanted you to pick one as it is far more difficult and challenging than combining two or mixing them up. Your development and technique was very well applied in this take and overall I am very pleased with it.

Thank you Ben!


Dexxter (1:12 - 1:48)

Things that I like: Sound, development, different endings, question and answer phrasing, straight and syncopated rhythm, chord tones and tensions in your melodies.

Things that need work: None

Conclusion: Perfect take! I do mean it Max. You took only one play rest approach and did all the good things I mentioned in 36 seconds of solo. Well done man, I have no suggestions for you except to keep doing great work!

Thank you Max!


enforcer (1:48 - 2:23)

Things that I like: Melodic approach, techniques applied, sound, development and phrasing (to some extent).

Things that need work: Phrasing (on certain parts is weaker) and tunning (B and G string sound out compared to backing track, it might be that the strings are old or intonation is off).

Conclusion: First thing I have to say is you didn't follow one specific play rest approach but rather mixed them. If we put this aside I can say that I am very happy with melodic content and approach in this solo. Make sure your guitar is in tune 100% with backing track next time you plan to record and work on phrasing a bit more.
P.S. Excellent alternate picking run !

Thank you Can!


JamesT (2:24 - 3:00)

Things that I like: Sound, development, question and answer phrasing, melodic approach.

Things that need work: Technique (very minimal improvement for bends with vibrato and vibrato itself) and phrasing (more variety in rhythm choices perhaps or even different starting places on and off the beat!)

Conclusion: Jim you followed very specific play rest approach and I am very happy because of that. Things that need work were technique and phrasing but to be honest this is very minimal work and I think within a month time (or less) this will fall into right place. Keep working on bending, vibrato and phrasing, everything else is awesome.

Thank you Jim!


Matt23 (3:00 - 3:35)

Things that I like: Melodic approach (in most of the solo), development, question and answer phrasing.

Things that need work: Sound (it is very clean and dry, I am sure with better sound solo would have sounded more "alive"), technique (you need to work on your left hand mutting as double stops need to have joint and balanced sound) and phrasing (in some sections phrasing was weak but this was due to technique)

Conclusion: Overall I am very pleased to see that you took only one specific play rest approach. Well done for that Matt. I believe you need to work on your sound most , technique and phrasing. You are doing great with REC program, keep practicing and good things will happen!

Thank you Matt!


Outlaw2112 (3:35 - 4:10)

Things that I like: Melodic approach and technique (to some extent).

Things that need work: Sound (it has way too much gain - I had to drop it down in the mix by 70% or so because it was peaking), phrasing (it was dropping in certain sections), development (more repetition, sequence, different endings)

Conclusion: John you did not follow specific play rest approach. There were play one rest one as well as play two rest two. At times you even rested for three,four bars (very beginning) and played more than two bars (in the 2nd section). Regardles of that, your sound needs most work as I have heard you use high gain sound in my previous collaborations. Let me know if I can be of any assistance regarding that. Your phrasing could also be tighter so work on it with metronome and backing tracks (check modes of accompainment on top of the post!).

Thank you John!


Oxac (4:10 - 4:45)

Things that I like: Sound, melodic approach, development, question and answer phrasing and overall creativity.

Things that need work: Phrasing (in 2nd part you dropped a note in one of your phrases), arrangement (choose different sound to your guitar and bring it higher in the mix) technique ( I would have liked to hear some arpeggios using double time on keyboard, would have sounded awesome at some point!)

Conclusion: Olle you almost followed one play rest approach 100% of the time. I didn't like that you played too much into the bars towards the end in the 2nd section but overall it was very good approach. I really like your creativity and I was very happy to provide you backing without my keys on there. It took me a lot extra work to mix it but if you like doing this I can give you more chance to do this in future. I would like to hear you use more techniqal things on keyboard although your solo was very melodic and well developed. Well done Olle!

Thank you Olle!


skennington (4:46 - 5:21)

Things that I like: Sound, melodic approach, development, question and answer phrasing, sequence, repetition, different endings, chord tones and tensions.

Things that need work: Bending (in the take I picked there were slightly flat bends that need work!), Technique/Vibrato/Intonation (when you end melody on last note it tends to be sharp - maybe you are trying to do light vibrato but instead produce a bit sharper pitch!)

Conclusion: Steve first of all thank you for submitting two takes for this collaboration. I had really hard time last night deciding which one to pick for final mix. I decided to go with your first take because I like development, melodic structure and phrasing more then in second take. In other words, your first take was more musical to me Things that need work I am sure you will work on. Uncle Skillet is there to help you but if you need any help from me regarding bending exercises and vibrato do let me know.
As final project I can recommend you to transcribe your solo in Guitar pro (it will be very usefull - ear training purposes, harmony analysis and rhythm training!) and I hope to see you in some future collaborations of mine.

Thank you Steve!


superize (5:21 - 5:57)

Things that I like: Sound, melodic approach (except at one spot!), development, question and answer phrasing, chord tones and tensions.

Things that need work: Melodic approach at 5:39-5:42 ! There are out notes there, transcribe your solo and you will see what I am talking about.

Conclusion: Isac like most guys, you mixed different play rest approaches and this is not what I had in mind. If we take that out of the way and consider what you did in this take, I must say I am very pleased and happy with it. Well done man and next time follow the rules I post in main topic

Thank you Isac!


TheKeplerConjecture (5:57-6:32)

Things that I like: Technique, chord tones and tensions, development and melodic approach (in some sections).

Things that need work: Sound (it was very distorted I had to decrease gain a lot and even then sounded distorted still , melodic choice (especially in the first section), question and answer phrasing (phrases don't sound natural one after another, they melodies need to blend well).

Conclusion: I like how you followed one specific play rest approach! That was great. In future try not to over play into next bar (like ending melodies on beat 2 of next bar and such). Pointers I made regarding things that need work I advise you take them seriously and work on them. This is the first time I hear you in my collaboration so I can't draw any conclusion what your real level of playing is. If you get a chance for some future collaboration record couple of takes and work on it as early as possible so that we can pick the best take!

Thank you TheKeplerConjecture!


Velvet Roger (6:33 - 7:08)

Things that I like: Sound, development, chord tones and tensions, melodic approach, question and answer phrasing.

Things that need work: Phrasing (in some parts phrasing is a bit weaker, if you check your solo with Guitar pro file you submitted you will see what I mean), Technique (small things on legato and vibrato, bending has definitely improved a lot!)

Conclusion: Roger you mixed up different patterns instead of sticking to one play rest approach. I like a lot of things in your solo but I think phrasing needs work especially with faster rhythms (triplets and such) as well as off beat/syncopated type phrases. I do however think that you are imporving a lot over the time and things that you do compared to what you did in first collaborations is huge difference. Now its just matter of details with vibrato and phrasing. Pretty soon I expect your improvisations to make a lot of sense as you are using chord tones tensions and scale passages naturally already. Very good take but work on the things mentioned and next time follow the rules!

Thank you Roger!


Pedja Simovic (7:08 - 7:44)

Things that I like: Melodic approach, motive development, question and answer phrasing, straigh and syncopated rhythms, chord tones, superimposing, through composed soling, technique etc

Things that need work: Sound (I created this sound very quick and now that I listen to it I think I could have created a better sound!)

Conclusion: I picked play one rest one approach. There were different starting places for melodies (pick up bar up beat of 4, down beat of 1 , up beat of one). Melodic approach, motive development, question and answer phrasing, straigh and syncopated rhythms, chord tones, superimposing and through composed soling is what made this solo sound as a whole thing very well. I personally think that sound could have been better but then again maybe this solo with different sound (less treble) wouldn't have same spiky statement as this one had at times!


Thank you for participating in this collaboration and I hope to see you guys in next one!


Pedja

Posted by: berko Jul 27 2009, 12:22 PM

Thanks Pedja for the mix and the comments!

I've read all the instructions and I know you spoke about the two different approaches. I thought though, that applying both would be even better - I didn't distinguish between the two so strictly and I wouldn't have thought that only one type would fit.

Anyway, this episode suited me very much because I still have to force myself sometimes to slow down or to rest for a few bars. But this also implies that I have to prepare for the rest and prepare for a logical comeback after the rest as well.

Once again, thanks for your work in this hot summer

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 12:26 PM

You welcome Berko!

I wrote about approach in the main thread but everybody seemed to miss it, or at least a lot of guys There were some guys that followed the rules and did awesome but most of you mixed the patterns which is not what I wanted you to do now but to work on it in future (for your own improvement). Regardless of everything your take was good man, I am glad you did it!

Back to more comments now, let me know if you have any questions or need anything!

Pedja

Posted by: Emir Hot Jul 27 2009, 01:02 PM

Awesome collaboration and great takes. Well done everybody and well done Pedja for covering such an important topic. Resting between phrases is extremely important thing in arranging music. I enjoyed listening to this mix.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 01:04 PM

Thank you Emir for kind words. I totally agree with you regarding this topic. I might do some more play rest collaborations in future !

Posted by: Dexxter Jul 27 2009, 01:06 PM

Wow.. thanks a lot Pedja! Can't say anything more than that.. Looking forward to your future collabs. And I will only send you totally improvised takes from now on as I said

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 01:09 PM

You welcome Max, really deserved all the praise!
I would prefer that actually from you and also start transcribing your playing in Guitar pro man. Well done once more

Posted by: Dexxter Jul 27 2009, 01:12 PM

Ok, so I will send you improvised take and the take transcribed to guitar pro in the future I'll transcribe this take now right away! Thanks again!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 01:18 PM

Excellent!
Just lets not confuse things- first you improvise and record your self, then you transcribe it (not the other way around

Posted by: Dexxter Jul 27 2009, 01:48 PM

Hehe, ofcourse So, here's this take transcribed

[attachment=16888:Dexxter_...nscribed.gp5]

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 01:51 PM

Well done!

To make it more professional put time signature (G minor/Bb major). To make it even more professional assign left hand fingerings to all the notes played. To make it GMC professional add picking you use !

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 27 2009, 02:02 PM

Now I feel like transcribing my take as well. Haha.

Posted by: Dexxter Jul 27 2009, 02:05 PM

Like this?

[attachment=16890:Dexxter_...nscribed.gp5]



Then do it Some cool phrases you've got there btw

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 02:08 PM

Do it !

Posted by: Dexxter Jul 27 2009, 02:21 PM

Perfect now? Thanks again, Pedja! can't wait for your next collab!

[attachment=16891:Dexxter_...nscribed.gp5]

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 02:25 PM

Great Dexxter!
Still not perfect - you can put harmony on top of each bar

New collaboration... I am leaving for summer holiday on 4th of August, will be in Greece until 14th. If I don't publish one by 4th definitely there will be one after 14th. Will put you on auto sign up thingy

Posted by: skennington Jul 27 2009, 03:08 PM

Thanks Pedja for this collab. It really forced me to focus more on the actual structure of the backing in order to follow the rules of the exercise. I will take your advice and transcribe my solo when I get a chance. (working atm)

Sometimes I get ahead of myself when trying to think of what is going to come next and with this type of approach, phrase ending's needs to be more precise than what I submitted. I agree with your comments on my performance 100% and will work on the things mentioned.

Thanks again and I will certainly keep an eye out for future collab's of yours!

Cheers,
Steve

Posted by: Dexxter Jul 27 2009, 03:13 PM

...How do you do that?

Great, looking forward to it!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 03:14 PM

Great to hear you enjoyed this collaboration Steve!
I was very happy to see your determination and openness towards it from very beginning. I am sure if you continue to implement this approach in your practice (even for 5-10 minutes a day!) it will bring you great results to your phrasing, ear training and song writing skills.
I will be more then happy to have you in my future collaborations. Will send you PM when I post new one, perhaps you will be available then to participate.

Let me know if you need any help with transcribing. Talk to Uncle Skillet and get him to make you work for it!!! Tell him I said that!

Well done Steve!

Posted by: Oxac Jul 27 2009, 03:15 PM

This type of music is a whole new area for me as a piano player. I've always played classical music before, hence the untechnical solo. If you want a pure technique demonstration I would be happy to provide it.

-EDIT- I think that my insecurity in playing this kind of music on the piano is because I've never practised to a backing or with a metronome on the piano. I'll give it a go.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 03:16 PM

On beat one of every bar press C letter. I believe thats the one. If its not C then its T letter for TEXT! Then you just type in full chord and move to the next bar etc



Beautiful !
I would really like to hear some piano type characteristic lines in some future collaboration. In the meanwhile why not some guitar oriented take ?

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 27 2009, 03:18 PM

On my keyboard it's A. As in "akkord", which is Danish. Might be C with English as language choice.

I tried tabbing it out as accurate as possible (I believe that's how I play it, though it might not have been how I intented it):

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 03:54 PM

We already talked about it on MSN but I will mention it here as well. It is not 100% accurate as there was tapping part and some others which you didn't execute perfectly with your guitar. I am very glad to see that this is what you wanted to play in the actual guitar pro file. Next time I am sure you will spend more time when you record a take so you can execute it perfectly!

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 27 2009, 04:25 PM

This is not actually what I wanted to play. I don't know what I exactly wanted to play, as I was mostly improvising from the tapping part and onwards. I had composed something at first, but I couldn't quite get it to sound right.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 04:28 PM

Then your transcription needs more polishing until you get right what you actually tapped

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 27 2009, 04:40 PM

But I can't hear what note I actually hit at what point in the bar in those fast runs.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 04:52 PM

You can slow it down in Windows Media Player. I think also that you can slow it down in Win Amp - not sure since I don't use that software but Sinisa (our instructor) mentioned that you can.

You can also take that same audio file, put it back in your DAW and slow it down using tools there!

Posted by: Velvet Roger Jul 27 2009, 05:34 PM

Many thanks Pedja for your valuable comments, will keep working on the things mentioned!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 05:42 PM

Anytime Roger, keep up the great work man!

Posted by: Oxac Jul 27 2009, 07:17 PM

Sure Pedja, I'll suprise you in the future

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 07:33 PM

Thanks Olle!

Posted by: TheKeplerConjecture Jul 27 2009, 07:43 PM

Thank you very much for the feedback. I'll certainly take your comments seriously and do my best to address them. I will really try to get in on your next collab - especially since this one was so challenging and educational. It's easy enough to make sure you START a phrase at every other measure. But ENDING it within a particular time frame is a real challenge.

I'm going to devote some time to practicing this nightly. I currently set aside 30 minutes for improvising practice, but it's very "free", meaning unstructured with no real goals other than to sound good and have fun. I think I'll pick one of your play-rest patterns and apply it for about ten minutes.

I think it would be good to add more structure to the improvising section of my practice routine, in general; And this is a great start. Do you have any more tricks/challenges like this that you wouldn't mind sharing? I think doing things like this on a regular basis will really help me in being able to handle anything thrown at me in an improv setting.

Regarding the "phrases don't sound natural one after another" comment: I have a theory on this. In another collab, I got some negative feedback about spending too much time in a particular area of the fretboard. I've recently been making a conscious effort to move around more often. As a result, I stammer, having to reorganize in my mind where each scale degree is in the new position. This has been wreaking havoc on my melodic phrasing. I think I need to find a balance when it come to actual presentations. I don't want to sound too "static," but I would like to sound melodic. perhaps I should integrate this into the improv practicing. Play-rest pattern, and for each new phrase start in a new position. Then, when it comes to real playing (read "not practicing") just do what I think sounds best and what's comfortable.

Thanks again. This was a really cool collab to be involved in. Again, I'll try to get in on your future collabs. Thanks for putting this together!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 07:54 PM

You welcome!
I am glad you are taking everything from this collaborations and comments the right way.
Regarding your question for organized structured improvising practice I have a solution. Before this "in class type collaboration" we had 4 more collaborations. One of them was SOLOING USING CHORD TONES AND ARPEGGIOS; another one was TIME FEEL COLLABORATION (soloing using very slow medium and very fast rhythms); another one we had was Straight vs Syncopated rhythm (on and off beat type rhythms in soloing) and last one we had was SEQUENCE COLLABORATION! (using sequence in soloing exclusively).

So you see you can check out all of these collaborations, learn the concept and apply it all to time slots as you wish. I like to do these things over everything and anything really because it unlocks my mind and I can improvise freely and use any device I want.

Here are links for solos of mine that turned into lessons from all the collaborations mentioned.


Sequence collaboration solo - http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/sequence_collaboration_solo/

Arpeggio/Chord tone collaboration solo - http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/arpeggio_chord_tone_collaboration_solo/

Time feel collaboration solo - http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/time_feel_collaboration_solo_/

Straight vs Syncopated collaboration solo - http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/straight_vs_syncopated_collaboration_solo_/


I am waiting for lesson I submitted couple of days ago for this collaboration to be published on the main page. You will then have a total of 5 different approaches, devices, tricks, call it whatever you want, that will help you to approach improvising songwriting and learning your instrument better!

Hope that helps, let me know if you need anything.

Pedja

Posted by: TheKeplerConjecture Jul 27 2009, 08:27 PM

Sure does! Thanks again!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 27 2009, 08:28 PM

Awesome, glad to hear that!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jul 27 2009, 11:18 PM

Great collaboration and very useful comments Pedja. Awesome takes everybody!

Posted by: UncleSkillet Jul 28 2009, 04:26 AM

Got it Pedja.

He still needs to show me he can play the darn F bar chord to from our first lesson in the MTP.

I'm very proud of his progress and think he is moving along fine for the time he has to practice. Your comments were spot on and thanks for everything.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jul 28 2009, 07:53 AM

Thank you for checking it out Ivan.



F chord can be more difficult than play rest approach soloing for sure

Just by seeing his determination in two takes Steve submitted I just know he will do well. Keep up the good work guys!