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Posted by: sargal Mar 10 2009, 04:55 PM

Hi GMC forum!

As the topic reads, I'm looking for a versatile amp suitable for multiple genres and situations. It will be my 2nd amp purchase after my currently used starter/practice amp Marshall MG15DFX.

I'll be traveling to Germany on April 4th to visit the "Musikmesse" in Frankfurt, an international trade fair for musical instruments and stuff. All the big (and many small) players will be there, so I can try a couple of products of different manufacturers. What I'm hoping to get from you guys is some advice which models to test.

I try to give you guys as much info as possible. If I forgot something or you just want to know more, let me know.

Reasons why I like to upgrade the MG15DFX:

• No FX loop
• No foot switch
• "Ballsier" sound if that makes any sense
• New gear is fun
• If practicing goes well, I might be able to join my first garage band in autumn or winter '09 so I was told I need a bit more punch to compete with drummer and others. No first hand experience on that yet.

Gear I use at the moment, besides the amp of course:

• PRS Custom 22 (2 humbuckers)
• Line6 M13 (multi fx floor board)

New amp will be used for:
I guess this is the most important thing, hence I need something flexible. Because of my diverse interest in music, I don't want to limit myself to one style, if that is possible. (List in order of importance)

1. Rock
2. Country
3. "Old school metal"^*
4. Blues

^* To me, that is the more melodic stuff with no or very little shouting. I'm no expert in that area, I just like bands like GnR, AC/DC, Maiden, Scorpions, Manowar, Metallica. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is all not the high gain stuff that is used by many "modern" metal sub-genres and bands.


Okay, now for the other requirements of the amp:

• FX loop to make best use of the M13 which I really like
• Foot switching possible (guess that is true for most good amps)
• Budget is up to 2500 Euro total (=for combo or head+cab)
• New or used, fine with either one
• Should be usable for jamming with a small band, the first (small) gigs (should I ever get there ), and - if possible - for playing at more or less neighbor-friendly volume in my appartment. If the last thing is not possible, just forget the idea. Priority is on band play.

Thoughts so far: (from reading forum, talking to friends, watching youtube, etc.)

• 2 boxes at 20kg each are easier to transport than 1 box at 35kg, giving the head+cab an advantage. Only got that impression by lifting some in stores. No actual experience since I don't own any of those yet.
• Multiple channels are a big plus, I guess. How do you switch them with effects in practice, say between intro and main part of a song? Do you need to hit the channel switch and then the knobs on the effect board? Sounds like stomp acrobatics to me.
• 2x12" speakers seems to be the most practical solution after reading on the subject. Kinda got away from the 4x12" idea (Power! ) I first had when visiting some stores. I know there are a lot of different preferences for 1x12" or 4x12", and I'm still open for suggestions, not set on 2x12".
• "Style" is not that important, I like the look of both vintage and modern style.
• Read on the forum about some amps' capability to change output power, e.g. 15/30W or 50/100W. That sounds pretty cool to me for flexibility, but I don't know how a strong point that is.
• Build quality (materials, crafting) is important to me, even though I handle all my stuff with great caution. I want something that lasts.
• I guess built-in effects are not that important since I got all kinds of effects on the M13.

Current list of potential amps: (from sticky, other postings, friends. Alphabetical order)

• Engl Blackmore E650
• Fender Deluxe
• Fender Hot Rod
• Fender Twin
• Hughes & Kettner Switchblade
• Hughes & Kettner Trilogy
• Hughes & Kettner TriAmp
• Laney Lionheart
• Marshall 6100
• Marshall JVM 410
• Mesa Boogie 5:50
• Orange Rockerverb
• Vox AC30CC(H)
• Vox AC30H(H)

Okay, that's it. Thanks for reading if you made it here.
I greatly appreciate any thoughts on the subject, be it general advice, tech stuff, or experience to cut down or expand the list (or even both). I hope I gave enough information and put it in a somewhat readable format. Since it's me wanting help from you, I gladly help you helping me by answering any questions you might have.

Rock on!
sargal

Posted by: Pavlov Mar 10 2009, 05:09 PM

Definitely try out the Fender Twin Reverb and the Fender Princeton '65 reissue reverb. I thought those sounded heavenly when I heard them in the guitar shop. They're the amps I'd one day (one of the two) hope to own.

Posted by: 29a Mar 10 2009, 05:30 PM

You should consider the ENGL Savage too, it's basically a Blackmore with more knobs Maybe you could even get an used ENGL Special Edition, which is probably one of the most versatile amps out there.

Maybe you should also consider getting different specialized amps. For example Blackheart makes cheap low Wattage amps that you can crank to get Power Tube distortion which is great for blues and classic rock. The tiny terror also plays in this area. For metal on the other Hand most of the distortion comes from the preamp, so you usually want more headroom.

And speaking of weight, the ENGL cabs are very heavy. I think they're about 50kg (412 Pro). And the XXL is probably even heavier.

Posted by: Marshmall0wz Mar 11 2009, 02:10 AM

Rockerverb is extremely versatile, crushing metal tones all the way to crisp indie rock tones with a great clean thrown in for shiz and giggles, easy eq. Nice and simple. Wish I had one,

Posted by: ZakkWylde Mar 11 2009, 02:29 AM

The Hughes and Kettners, the Orange and the Marshalls can handle all of your styles perfectly... The fenders would have a problem doing old school metal right while the blackmore and the mesa can't handle country very well.

I can only recommend the Marshall JVM - as I play it myself - and because it does all your genres very well!
2x12 cab is fine, 4x12 sounds 'bigger' 1x12 is prolly not enough...

Maybe we meet each other at the Musikmesse! (don't expect to have the chance to play some of the gear you mentioned though)

Posted by: MickeM Mar 11 2009, 09:25 AM

Bringing it down to one amp from your list that I think would suit you I'd say Orange Rockerverb 50.
If I get to choose two I'd put the Rockerverb up against a 50W JVM.

Hope you'll find your amp.

Posted by: David Wallimann Mar 11 2009, 02:27 PM

If you can find a Mesa Mark IV give it a try.
It's the most versatile amp I've ever tried.
They are not in production anymore and the V is about to come out, but consider the IV if you find one!

Posted by: Muris Varajic Mar 11 2009, 02:56 PM

I have Engl Sovereign 2x12 combo and I love it,
tons of extra great and powerful gain for everything
from old school to uber brutal metal,
but cleans and ODs is what I like even better on this amp.
It's like 2400-2500 euros brand new, I bought a show room model
for 1980 euros tho.

You can switch channels/fx loop/ reverb etc using MIDI
or via ENGL foot controller.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 12 2009, 01:37 AM

Hmm tough choice, tough choice! 2500e a very nice figure so you can choose something very good for that. I must say you did your job pretty well, analyzing your needs and products.
I would say for your needs a 50W tube amp is very reasonable power rating. This narrows down the search to 45-60W amps. If you plan to carry it around, the weight could be a problem. If you have somebody to help you out then combo is a good solution. 2x12 combos can be a bit heavy, but with handles on the side they can be more practical. head+cab means that you have 2x20kg instead of 1x35kg of gear. Think hard what is better, I cannot help here, I'll give both combo and H+C suggestions.

guitar amp:
1. 45-60W combo/head+cab

You will need 2x12 speakers as they give a lot to the sound, so 2x12 is a must for that kind of money. The way I see it - if you're buying a 2,5K amp it should have at least 2x12 cab to play that nice sound that comes from the amp.

guitar amp:
1. 45-60W combo/head+cab
2. 2x12 speakers

One more very important thing is the number or channels - it should have 3 of them, this is optimal IMO. With 2 channels you need a boost pedal, and 4 are even better of course. This narrows down the search even more:

guitar amp:
1. 45-60W combo/head+cab
2. 2x12 speakers
3. more than 2 channels/modes preferably

Suggestions:

Marshall JVM205H
50-watt All-tube Guitar Amp Head with 2 Channels, 3 Modes, Reverb, Effects Loops, MIDI switching, Line Out, and Programmable Footswitch


ENGL SCREAMER HEAD E 335


Fender Super-Sonic Head
60W Guitar Amp Head with Two Channels, Effects Loop, and Switchable Impedance


Marshall JVM205C
50-watt All-tube Guitar Combo Amp with 1 x 12" Vintage Speaker, 1 x 12" Modern Speaker, 2 Channels, 3 Modes, Reverb, Effects Loops, MIDI switching, Line Out, and Programmable Footswitch


ENGL SOUVEREIGN 2x12" Combo E 368


Egnater Renegade-50 2x12" Combo

Posted by: Marshmall0wz Mar 12 2009, 02:57 AM

OH!!! Checkout the Egnater Tour Master. It has the 10/25/50/100 watt switch on the back, and comes in many combo/head forms. 4 channels with many modes. Absolute Beast if you like to have tons of features.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Egnater-Tourmaster-Series-4212-All-Tube-Guitar-Combo-Amp-104773908-i1388439.gc

Posted by: Marc_Maiden Mar 12 2009, 04:49 PM

mesa amps are very versatile

my boogie Mark I is great for everything, i can get a crunchy metal sound to a sweet jazz sound...only problem with the mark I is that you need to get an A/B switch to switch channels...but yeah, blues,country, metal, and rock...no problem for the boogies!


but to be honest, with that much money,

id invest in a rack system (with a mesa powering it) you can get an infinate amount of tones from a rack unit, they are a breeze to record with, and they sound as nice as any amp

Posted by: sargal Mar 12 2009, 11:13 PM

Thank you all for your effort and the really helpful suggestions. I'm glad you took the time to read through the novel I wrote and share your experience. Thumbs up! So this is the current situation:

As the first impression is right most of the time, I'll go with head + cab, since I rather walk twice with half the load.
Regarding racks, I don't know anything about them, but read they are even bulkier and heavier than regular amps are already. Also, since I already have that multi-fx floor board, I'm not sure if the rack solution is that good for me. The whole amp world is new to me already and I am still struggling to not lose track of the many options there are.

Testing stuff out of production (e.g. the recommended Mesa Mark IV) is pretty hard for me as they won't have that stuff on the fair and it's not available at my trusted local store. Kinda the same problem I see with Egnater. Never heard this name before nor saw it in any store. Are they exotic here?

So here are the heads you gave positive feedback for: (prices are ballpark figures for new amps from the big German online stores)

• Orange Rockerverb 50 (EUR 1400)
• Engl E335 Screamer (EUR 1000)
• Marshall JVM 205 (EUR 1100)
• Hughes & Kettner Triamp (EUR 2700)
• Hughes & Kettner Trilogy (EUR1500)
• Hughes & Kettner Switchblade (EUR 1200)
• Engl E610 Savage (EUR 1900)
• Engl E670 Savage SE (EUR 3000)

And here are the heads I didn't get feedback for, yet. I keep asking for them since I really like http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=25360. The local store only has a rectifier for sale, and as I understand it, these two amps are totally different. The AC30 was recommended by a friend of mine and I liked the stuff I saw on youtube. Is this a good amp for the stuff I need it for? If yes, is the http://www.voxamps.de/vox-produktseite-ac30hh.html?&tx_jppageteaser_pi1%5bbackId%5d=6038 version worth the premium compared to the http://www.voxamps.de/vox-produktseite-ac30cch.html?&tx_jppageteaser_pi1%5bbackId%5d=6038?

• Mesa Boogie Express 5:50 (EUR 1700)
• Vox AC30 CCH (EUR 900)
• Vox AC30 HH (EUR 1200)

I really like that the original list I posted is now a bit shorter with new entries, too. If someone can enlighten me further, be it with additional info to the already recommended ones or with some info to the Mesa Boogie Express or the Vox AC30, I will greatly appreciate it.

Posted by: 29a Mar 12 2009, 11:50 PM

I don't think the ac30 would make a good metal amp. Without a pedal it would probably even be unusable for metal. Also I don't think it's a very versatile. But I don't have much experience with this amp, played it in a music store and read some things about it but that's it.

The boogie might be an option but I've never played one so I can't tell anything about it.

sargal, I've never ever seen an egnater in Switzerland either.

Jonas

Posted by: mattacuk Mar 12 2009, 11:58 PM

I would agree with you. I had the AC15 and it just made me sound like the beetles whatever I played. I bought a bunch of expensive pedals and it somehow sounded even worse

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 13 2009, 12:53 AM

i agree with 29a and mattacuk, AC30 is probably not the best solution for your budget - there are great options on your list:

* Orange Rockerverb 50 (EUR 1400) - great sound, not too flexible
* Engl E335 Screamer (EUR 1000) - my recommendation
* Marshall JVM 205 (EUR 1100) - great sound, not so great build quality
* Hughes & Kettner Triamp (EUR 2700) - my recommendation
* Hughes & Kettner Trilogy (EUR1500) - my recommendation
* Hughes & Kettner Switchblade (EUR 1200) - great but has multiFX
* Engl E610 Savage (EUR 1900) - too strong
* Engl E670 Savage SE (EUR 3000) - overkill, too pricey
* Mesa Boogie Express 5:50 (EUR 1700) - my recommendation

Posted by: ZakkWylde Mar 13 2009, 01:43 AM

Why is the Marshall not so good built quality? They are handmade in the UK!
The Jcm 2000 dsl/tsl series had flaws but the quality is top notch these days and was even better before the 1990s (aside from Marshall footswitches; they have always been bad!!!)

The Orange is suprisingly versatile imho!!! Much more than an Engl screamer or Mesa 5:50!!!! It just sounds very dry(>british) which might not be what you looking for, but give it a try if possible.

All the hughes and kettner amps mentioned are extremely versatile!

ENGL amps in general are a two edged blade: They are versatile and well built but they have their own signature sound, which is very cold and modern. They are loved for their tone while others hate it!

Marshall is a classic and the JVM is the first marshall that can actually more than just two or three styles but the middy marshall tone always has this vintage touch and tends to get muddy...again: some love it, some hate it
(consider a marshall the exact opposite of an ENGL amp; ENGL: POWERFULL AND MODERN, Marshall: FAT AND WARM

The Egnater amps are prolly the most versatile amps on this planet because they us a modular system that allows you to built your own amp, but they are only distributed in the US and difficult to get in Europe...

The second most versatile amp is the Mesa Mark IV (New Mark V coming up!!) I know they are ridiciolusly expensive in Europe but still worth their money! They do everything from Jazz and blues to Thrash Metal and everything in between!

Posted by: Marshmall0wz Mar 13 2009, 03:25 AM

Have you ever played one? Super flexible i think.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Mar 13 2009, 03:58 AM

Yup Ivan, I couldn't feel you on that one - This Orange Is Extremely versatile!

It's primary hunting ground is blues and hard rock (just like ENGLs are best in high gain), but it also has a chimey clean channel, it exceeds at country and funk sounds, and it has a crushing high gain too (Jim Root of SLIPKNOT uses an Orange!!!!)

Posted by: Marc_Maiden Mar 13 2009, 04:35 AM

yeah but for the price oranges arent worth it at all

Posted by: ZakkWylde Mar 13 2009, 05:01 AM

They aren't as expensive in Europe as they are in the US, they are still far away from cheap but still worth considering!

Posted by: MickeM Mar 13 2009, 08:51 AM

I think you answered your own question

Just kidding, what you said made me think of old british motorcycles and cars. They come with a certain reputration you know



and regarding the Orange Rockerverb imo it's a tone machine. Whenever I trade my Switchblade away that Orange is on the list of prospects.
And for 80's metal it's the amp for me, swell reverb. JVM would be my second choise, or the best one if you're looking for a full range of Marshall sounds. That's never wrong

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 14 2009, 11:45 PM

The build quality is poorer today, and Marshall cuts corners on every component: cheap plastic Chinese-made pots&knobs (most of electric components in Marshall are manufactured in China these days), not so good tranny quality, poor carrying handle, factory biasing often way off the specs, and bad fooswitches as you mentioned yourself, are some of the things I don't like in these amps that are my very favorite btw, and I'm really feeling bad cause they are doing this to greatest amp of all time. In addition I'm giving you the images of JVM and Vintage Marshall from inside to compare quality:






I'm sure it's awesome, didn't mean to say anything bad about it, I was comparing it to the rest of the list of amps. It has 2 channels and limited EQ on the clean channel. But hey, if the sound is good and if these things doesn't make much difference I definitely recommend it as well! I love like Orange sound, and like vintage style amps with only one great channel so this would definitely be on top 10 of my list if I considered buying.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Mar 14 2009, 11:50 PM

That's the funny thing about Orange amps, they seem limited with just a few knobs but even a little twist on those knobs changes the complete overall sound!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 14 2009, 11:56 PM

I agree, throw in a boost pedal and there's the third channel, or just roll of volume. Gear is versatile as much as the player is.

Posted by: sted Mar 15 2009, 10:00 AM

Hey Sargal!

I've been searching for a new amp myself mate, pretty much around the same parameters you have been looking for and am very close to ordering aMesa Lonestar 2x12 combo, the key benefits for me are:

Switchable power between 10/50/100 watts, great for home use and big enough for just about any venue

Two channels, channel one is clean vintage, two can be clone or high gain setting, it also has a footswitchable "solo" option so in effect gives you three channels apparently!

Switchable three way voicing thick, normal, thicker

All tube FX loop

switchable Spring reverb

These are the key features for me but it has lots of other cool stuff as well, retails in the uk around 2000 sterling so not cheap but very versatile methinks!

Would like Ivans comments on this too if hes out there still!!



Some links:

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Lonestar/Lonestar.htm

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Reviews/GW-LStar-Nov04/GW-Lonestar-NOV04.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiW22O914Cg

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 15 2009, 01:34 PM

Haven't played it mate, but it looks and sounds like a superb tone machine. HQ all the way.

Posted by: Marshmall0wz Mar 16 2009, 03:16 AM

Yeah orange's are insane when it comes to versatility. And my favorite thing is that no matter where you set ANY of the knobs, you'll find a usable tone which is pretty crazy! Love mine.

Posted by: sargal Apr 7 2009, 04:10 PM

Update

As the fair was last weekend already, I was able to get some more insight in the subject. Unfortunately, not all amps in my list were presented, some were not even displayed (e.g. the Marshall 205).

To make a long story a bit shorter: You guys were great!
All amps that I was able to hear and had a recommendation from you were really good.

These amps I "met":

• Engl E-610 Savage (heard)
• Hughes & Kettner Switchblade 100 (heard)
• Hughes & Kettner Triamp (heard)
• Mesa Boogie Express 5:50 (played)
• Orange Thunderverb 50 (played)

The conditions under which I got to perceive the amps were very different for the different amps, so there cannot be a perfectly fair comparison. Adding to that is the personal experience with the staff (availability, friendliness, knowledge, etc.) of different manufacturers which makes the whole thing even more biased.

So I'll give this a bit more thought, but for now, the top 3 candidates are:

1. Hughes & Kettner Triamp (bazillions of features, channels, and the cool glow)
2. Orange Thunderverb 50 (easiest-to-use front plate)
3. Engl E-610 Savage (still easy-to-use, made in Germany)

I left out anything related to sound on purpose, since all 3 blew me away with their sound.

I guess the final decision will be made by gut feeling. If you know a better way to decide, let me know. Can also roll dice or flip coins, but I don't think this will be satisfying in the long run.

Posted by: sargal Jun 10 2009, 09:27 AM

Just to follow up on this and share the end with you: It's done!

Yesterday, a huge and heavy box arrived on a pallet. The contents:
Hughes & Kettner Triamp + matching 412 Cabinet

Unpacked, set up, plugged in. Even at the reduced 50W setting, this blows the neighbors away. Can't use anything but an 8 o'clock setting on master volume.

The sound is so great, I'm loving it. Will have to spend many hours with amp settings and pickup combinations to test what seems to be unlimited options. Thank you all for your advice and help, it made me get an amp I haven't heard of before but which I really really like. Regarding the cabinet, I am fully aware that a 212 would have been the more reasonable choice, but I just followed the "trust me, you WANT that 412" advice I got from a few experienced players in my area.

Posted by: tonymiro Jun 10 2009, 09:40 AM

Sargal,

if you can get an attenuator. That will allow you to run the amp flat out but at a reduced volume. The THD Hotplate is one example, there are several others. One thing though, you need to make sure that the attenuator is the right load for the amp ie 16/8/4 ohm.

Posted by: audiopaal Jun 10 2009, 09:46 AM

Congrats on your new amp
I got a new one myself yesterday, good times

Posted by: sargal Jun 10 2009, 12:08 PM

I'm no electrical engineer, but I think this is built-in already. On the head's back, there is a switch 100W/50W which (again) I think does the same as an attenuator. Of course, you only have two settings. Maybe I wrote it in a misleading way: I already like the tone I get at minimum master volume level. Turning that master volume knob just a tiny amount to the right while having the section volume + gain set high will most certainly result in uniformed people visiting me. I don't need that volume at home, I just enjoy a rich tone at what people might call "bedroom level".

Maybe a small piece of advice here, which is what I learned from shopping for an amp: It's like shopping for a TV, in the store they always look smaller than in your living room. So when you test an amp in a store (or, to make it worse, at a trade fair where I tested them), it doesn't "feel" as loud as when you play at the same settings at home. At least that is how it appeared to me. I'm just glad that even this overpowered monster of an amp is usable in my living room.


One thing you mentioned though are the 16/8/4 ohm. Seeing that both the cab and the head support various impedances, is there a difference? Let's say in mono I can use a 16 ohm output connected to the 16 ohm input versus 4 ohm output connected to 4 ohm input.

Posted by: AdamB Jun 10 2009, 12:52 PM

A good attenuator will allow you to dial the output power much more precisly than the built in one, you can dial it right down to nill if you want. I did look into getting one myself a while back as I wanted to run the output of the amp into a desk to use it as a valve preamp, as you can get some which come with headphone/line-out jacks if I remember correctly.

50W through a 4x12 is still going to be far too loud for not annoying the neighbours hehe.

-Adam

Posted by: MickeM Jun 10 2009, 06:15 PM

Excellent!!!

Good thing about these modern amps is that they sound GREAT already at low volume.

Posted by: sargal Jun 10 2009, 10:39 PM

Luckily they can't cancel my lease since I did that already. Joyful last days in this home await!