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Posted by: crevedko Feb 24 2008, 11:59 PM

Hi Muris!

When i read Andrew's lesson about modes it opened a big field to think on.
I have actualy 2 questions which is close to each other (i suppose).

First: Three keys C major / D dorian / A minor (aeolian) are the modes of C, and they have one shape on the fretboard. So what makes them sound different (if does) ?
For example i think "Maybe it is all about root note (different for each mode) which is used more often than other in this scale which makes listener to hear the tonal center of music, and other 3d, 5th, 6th create melody around it"
And second question: is there some rules when you soloing certain key. For example i think "I need to start my solo from root note, or end with it, or i should play around it, up and down on a fretbord". As i understand pentatonic scale is more comfortable for soloing and shredding, becouse it excludes "weak" notes?

You are the person i asked to becouse your solo always so melodic even when it is somewhat exotic (Oriental shred, perfect i think)

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Sorry for my english in any case
P.P.S. Is here anybody else from Russia?

Posted by: Pavel Feb 25 2008, 12:06 AM

Sorry for bumping in before Muris, but i will leave the main question for him to answer

I'm actually from Ukraine but Russian is my main language in my family Moving to Croatia didn't prevent Russian to be the main language in my house.

Posted by: Muris Feb 25 2008, 05:29 AM

No worries Pavel,glad you've found a country mate,
I'm sure there are many more at GMC tho.

On topic,what determines mode and its sound comparing to other scales/modes
with same notes is chord progression most of all.
You cannot get this after only couple of chords,
you have to listen to whole tune or at least part of tune
to realize chord progression/key.

Few examples:
C,Am,F,G,C- C Ionian
Am,Dm,G,Am- A Aeolian
F,F,G,F - F Lydian
Dm,G,C,Dm,Am,Dm - D Dorian
G,F,G,G,C,F,G - G Mixolyidian

As for the soloing,you don't have to start with root note at all.
Scale is just group of 7 notes(diatonic scales),you pick whatever you want
from there and make some music from it.

All you have to do is to use it wise.
Another example,you're in key of Am and you're using Am scale or Am pentatonic.
Reasonable enough,you'll lay down on A note here and there,on root chord lets say.
Now do the same in key of C(on root chord per example) and it'd be "weak",
cause C chord doesn't have A note.
Try it and you'll see what I mean.
Same thing goes with rest of the modes,
you have the scale/mode but you need to follow chord progression
to get smooth phrasing over it.

Posted by: crevedko Feb 25 2008, 10:54 AM

Thanks alot!
I think i got it

Posted by: Muris Feb 25 2008, 10:54 AM

You[re welcome

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 8 2008, 08:50 PM

Hi Muris!
It's been a long time since my last post
and the reason is that I'm doing a modes and chords full-immersion
and I'm "studying" your Fusion for beginner lesson.
Now here's my question: I understand very well why you're using
B Dorian and C Dorian modes, but the only part
where no mode is indicated is on that G7 chord ("you play around the notes of it").
But neither B Dorian nor C Dorian contain all the notes of G7 chord (C Dorian misses 3rd),
so would it be "correct" to modulate to G Mixolydian on that G7?

P.S.: I'll take this thread as a "MODES THREAD".

Sorry for the confusing question, but I'm very confused about the topic!
But I'm working hard!!!
Thank you very much...
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 02:32 AM

I knew it'd come to this Eddie,and I'm damn glad!

Here's the deal with that G7 chord.
Actually it's chord on 6th degree of natural minor scale,B minor in our case.
7th is added to get a kind of bluesy sound from it.
G Mixolydian would be wrong.
But G Mixolydian #4 might be the scale you're looking for.
Why might be?
Simple because we're still in key of B so we're looking
for a scale with B note as a root.
That scale is B minor -5.
But as you can see,I didn't use that scale,
I was only playing around notes of G7 chord.
But if you're looking for a scale,that would be a scale.
Maybe it has another name,dunno,
to me it's reasonable enough to call it minor -5.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 9 2008, 08:37 AM

Thank you Muris!
Very clear now, that F in G7 is the flattened 5th of B Aeolian.
Btw, does the bass stay in B over the G7? Is that the reason why we're still in B?
It's incredible how many things there are to learn from your lessons
besides just trying to play what you play!
More mode questions to come for sure!
Have a nice day.

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 03:07 PM

No Eddie,bass goes on G over G7 chord but we're still in Bm key.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 9 2008, 03:40 PM

How stupid of me to have asked you this!
I guess I'm trying to understand too many things at once.
Back to practice.

Cheers
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 03:44 PM

That's not stupid question at all Eddie.

Whatever bass is on G or B you're still shifting through different scales with B as a root note,
keep exploring,well done!

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 9 2008, 05:11 PM

Very interesting!
So if I understood correctly when we say that a song is in a certain key, Bbmin for example,
within that song any minor mode with that root note could be possible (depending on chords).
So all the minor modes are just a variation of our natural minor scale (Aeolian)!
We just adapt them to our chord, like with your G7 (we flatten the 5th of our natural minor)
So if for example we had a Bbmin9b (just an example, it sounds horrible) chord
we would still be in Bbmin but we would need a minor mode with a flattened 2nd.
(has to be phrygian because locrian has a 5b).
And the same applies for major.
And the more complex the chords, the more shifting through variations there is.
Am I getting it right?
Cheers

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 05:25 PM

Yes Eddie,that's right,or that's at least the way I see things.

I put all minor modes in group of current minor key.
Same thing with major modes.
Maybe I'm wrong,dunno, but it works fine,easier to track things imho.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 9 2008, 07:46 PM

Hi Muris, what a constructive day!
I came up with two simple triads: C and Fmin.
Now we can give this simple progression
two different tastes:
We can either modulate from C (any major mode) to F Aeolian (C phrygian),
or keep it in C flattening the 6th (C 6-) over F min.
Is this right?

BTW: I was playing this C Ionian scale with a flattened 2nd and a flattened 6th and it sounds very arabic...
Does it have a name?

Cheers, Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 08:28 PM

That progression is really fine example of how to mix few scales.
You may stick with C Aeolian over Fm as well,kind a small modulation into Cm key.
Or you can play C Ionian with flat 6th.
Dunno the name for Ionian with flat 2nd and 6th
tho it's just like Phrygian Dominant with sharp 7th,
too many names,I just can't follow it all.

Once more,theory is just a way to explain the things you're playing.
And if you hit couple of cool names for certain scales,bingo.

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 08:35 PM

I forgot to say,you can look at Fm as a root chord,
which opens a lot more options scale wise.
F harmonic minor over C,F natural minor over Fm.
Or even F Dorian over Fm,explore,like always.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 9 2008, 08:53 PM

This is all starting to become a bit too much!
I think I'll continue experimenting tomorrow!
Ouch, my head hurts...
It's been a great day today.
Good night and thank you always.
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 9 2008, 08:54 PM

You're welcome Eddie,keep working.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 12 2008, 03:40 PM

Sorry, Muris. I was just re-reading some of the things you explain
here and it jumped to my eye that I forgot to ask you one thing:

Does Phrygian Dominant mean it has a major 3rd instead of a minor 3d?
Also I wanted you to know that I'm trying to apply
your one string idea to modes and I'm finding it very useful.

Thank you.
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 12 2008, 05:49 PM

Yeas Eddie,Phrygian Dominant has major 3rd while Phrigian has minor 3rd,
it's mode on 5th degree of harmonic minor scale.

Posted by: kjutte Jul 31 2008, 07:01 AM

Pretty cool that Phrygian dominant works over a major triad or a dominant7 chord. really mixes things up!

Posted by: Muris Varajic Aug 1 2008, 11:42 AM

Yep