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Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 9 2017, 09:26 PM

NGD : YNGWIE STRAT! Just one catch. It's from CHINA!!! Yup, I broke down and bought one of these things to see if I liked scalloped necks or not. I can safely say it doesn't seem to make a huge difference to me. It does sort of physically remind the fingers not to overcommit to a single note, but I've already trained my fingers for that. So I play with a fairly light touch already. I can see why some folks like it though, especially if they normally play with a heavy touch. It reminds you that you don't need to hit the wood. Just between the frets.

Anyhoo, after one night with this guitar I decided to give her back to the world and I put her on offerup. I got an offer right away and she is shipping out Monday. It was brief, but nice to know her I was expecting far less from the guitar actually, especially given the price point under $200. The pickups were not nearly as bad as I thought theyd be and the action wasn't bad either The guitar had heft to it and didn't feel cheap. Every year these get better. It's going to get harder and harder to tell the difference in coming years imho.

Anyone else bought a chinese copy of something?

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 10 2017, 02:24 PM

Nice! I've tried a Gibson Les Paul Standard from China, and I was impressed because I expected much less from it. It looked like the real thing, and it sounded and felt ok for the price.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 10 2017, 08:51 PM

I was really shocked that it was as good as it was. I expected far less. The build quality was surprisingly good given the price, the guitar was under $200 so I expected very little. But it did play and sound like a real guitar. I just wanted to try a scalloped neck really. I then wen't ahead and put it back on the market and it's already sold! The cycle of gear

Todd

Posted by: Mertay Jul 10 2017, 11:17 PM

Usually complaints start through time with such guitars like frets melting quickly or hardware rust...

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 11 2017, 05:48 PM

As far as I can tell, there are no Gibson Les Pauls produced in China. Only Epiphones are produced there and the best quality Epiphones are made in Indonesia.

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/309-gibson-usa.aspx

http://www.samash.com/lp/gibson+les+paul

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 11 2017, 07:45 PM

He's not talking about guitars built by Gibson AKRICH He's talking about "bootleg" copy guitars, just like this one in the first post. These are not sanctioned by the original vendor. They are grey/black market goods. Like fake Gucci hand bags and such.

I could see that. After playing it for about an hour, I noticed the silver dust on my fingers from something on the guitar, strings, frets, not sure.

I was impressed more than I thought I would be by the sheer heft of it. It had decent tone as well. I expected far less for the money and from China. As a starter guitar, this would work ok and look cool at the same time which is what many young folks starting out want to begin with. Which is why Ibanez for example started making cheap indo versions of their best guitars. For example, the prestige Ibby that KRIS plays has a cheap indo version that looks just like it, but is not on the same level of instrument at all. The neck is fatter, the woods are not as good, the pickups are nowhere close, etc. But it looks just like it for $500. For a young student starting out, it's a great way to go Here is a picture. Looks nice for the price Seen it as low as $425



the real one is about $1500



Todd

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 12 2017, 04:12 PM

Yeah that's what I thought . Counterfeit Chinese junk. Folks are getting ripped off buying that crap. Personally, I try to buy as little as possible from China. I have found most things made there and sold in the US to be garbage. You get what you pay for.

http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/features/en-us/CounterfeitGibsons.aspx

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 12 2017, 05:50 PM

Well, it's certainly counterfeit, but for $200 I would not call it a "Ripoff" by any means. I've played $200 guitars that were not even close to this one on quality and they certainly didn't have a scalloped neck. For the price the instrument was actually not bat at all. That was what surprised me so much. Gabe seems to have had a similar experience. The truth of the matter is that so much of what we buy in the states is either made or sourced from China there is almost no way around it.
Even clothes for example that say "made in the usa" use fabric sourced from China.

So you can try to stay away from the "made in China" label, but you can't really stay away from Chinese products. They are simply pervasive in our economy. Even if you "buy American" the parts/bits/materials, are quite often from China.

But back to the guitar, I don't think a couple hundred bucks is a ripoff by any means and I was able to sell the guitar, as a chinese copy, within a week. So there is clearly a market for that stuff

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 12 2017, 11:40 PM

I was referring to the many people that have been swindled by being sold counterfeit instruments made in China, (which are illegal btw) that are being passed off as the real deal. Even if they are not claiming that they are made in the USA, they are still counterfeit and illegal if they carry the name of Gibson or Fender etc illegitimately. I have no idea if the one you bought is legit or not but if it isn't, then you are encouraging and supporting illegal black market trade if you knowingly purchased a counterfeit.

http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/features/en-us/CounterfeitGibsons.aspx

Yes it is pretty much impossible to avoid anything produced at least partly or in some way from China but I can certainly avoid the obvious and avoid supporting the economy of a country that has been ripping off the rest of the world for generations by passing off something that they copied from someone else and passing it off as their own.

https://www.iwu.edu/economics/PPE17/lewis.pdf

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/aa0183d4-8ad9-488f-9e38-7150a3bb62be/intellectual-property-theft-and-the-economy.pdf

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2010/08/30/counterfeiting-costs-us-businesses/id=12336/

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 13 2017, 08:30 PM

The one I bought was NOT legit, which is why it was $200. Real YNGWIE strats NEVER cost that little. It was coming from China so it was pretty clear that it was a fake, but as I mentioned, great price and nice guitar for the price. I sold it right away to a excited buyer who was familiar with china clone guitars. I remember when Lars Ulrich went around saying downloading MP3s is illegal. Of course it is, but honestly so what? Sorta the same with china guitars. If they are up front about it, being a fake, I see no problem with it personally. They can badge it any way they like. It's China.

But yeah, folks being told it's a real guitar and over paying is tragic. But it's always buyer beware on Ebay. Usually it's noobs who get taken and then they can get refunded with buyer protection so it works out. I'm a "copy left" person and support the Pirate Party so I have zero problem with fakes as long as they are honest about it being fake To each his own though.

But yeah, like you said, it's pretty much impossible to avoid "buying chinese". Just impossible. Our vendors source materials from China and put "made in the USA" on the sticker for the product. It's just how the world works. Labor jobs go where labor and material is cheap and that's still china for many things. It may be India in the future or Indonesia. But either way, there is no real way around it.

Todd

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 15 2017, 07:24 PM

Thanks for summing that up. As to your question of so what, let's start with this.

The federal criminal laws that prohibit any person from trafficking in counterfeit goods and services apply not only to the counterfeiter—the law applies with equal force to any individual or company that knowingly sells a counterfeit product. (18 U.S.C. 2320). This law, known as the Trademark Counterfeiting Act of 1984, carries substantial monetary fines (up to $5 million) and prison time (up to 20 years imprisonment or in some cases life) for individuals and companies who violate the Act.
https://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

I am pretty sure this is a felony, which means if convicted you could loose most of your 2nd amendment rights and in many states , your right to vote among other things.

And then lets talk about some other things that you seem to support and even encourage in this thread.

Counterfeit goods cost the American economy as
much as $250 billion a year, and counterfeiting is
responsible for the loss of over 750,000 American
jobs (U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
www.thetruecosts.org; Federal Bureau of
Investigation).

In 2006 over 80% of counterfeit goods seized by US Customs originated in China.

If you haven't read this, you really should because what I have quoted so far is just the tip of the iceberg. It gets much worse.

https://www.iwu.edu/economics/PPE17/lewis.pdf

If you support counterfeit goods from China and other countries then you also support things like child labor and sweat shops, organized crime, the introduction of dangerous products into the market, diminished tax revenues.
I wonder if this stuff is listed as part of the Pirate Party platform.

It's a good thing for you that this isn't my website because I would have to let you go as a representative of GMC for promoting such illegal activity.

Here are some more answers to "So what"?

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/aa0183d4-8ad9-488f-9e38-7150a3bb62be/intellectual-property-theft-and-the-economy.pdf

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2010/08/30/counterfeiting-costs-us-businesses/id=12336/

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 15 2017, 07:32 PM

I hate to break it to ya, but if you shop at Walmart or any chain store, you are supporting child labor. They get very cheap products from all over the world and many places use child labor for source materials/packaging/etc. Then the products come in to a "legit" vendor and come to the states. I've seen a few documentaries on this so far. The only way around it is not to buy anything and make your own clothes/shoes etc. So being on a high horse about it is a bit of a moot point. Whether we like it or not, buying a cheap shirt at walmart supports all kinds of bad things in the world that we don't want to know about but folks still buy from walmart.

I'm against child labor. But I'm sure I own something built by a kid, nike shoes for example. That's the sad part. we all own things made by children whether we realize it or not.

As for the law breaking, yup, it's a crime to make counterfeit goods. Thankfully I'm not making them. As for costing the economy, illegal drugs cost our economy billions each year. Then we spent another 27 Billion to fight drugs that we can't stop from coming in. Simple supply and demand.
http://drugwarfacts.org/chapter/economics

I'd be more up in arms about that personally. As it's something we can change in terms of law and policy. You can't stop people in other countries from making counterfeit goods. If that were possible they would not be so readily available.

Anyhoo

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 15 2017, 11:27 PM

The fact is that you are far more likely to be supporting child labor by buying and selling counterfeit goods from China (nevermind organized crime) than you would by buying items that are considered legit. But you are probably correct to a degree about products from China which is why China should never have been allowed to enter the WTO in my opinion. And when they were allowed into the WTO, that is when the floodgates were really opened to the counterfeit trade which has exploded since then. And it is also a fact that there are plenty of clothes and other products that you can buy where you can be guaranteed that you are not supporting child labor.

You mentioned that you didn't have a problem with counterfeit goods as long as the folks selling such things were up front about it, but the fact of the matter is that there is no difference whatsoever as far as the law is concerned.

And it's not only a crime to make these counterfeits as you stated but it is also a crime to sell or resell them which is something you seem to have overlooked or ignored, I don't know. At any rate, you are part of the problem when instead, you could be doing more personally to avoid supporting such practices instead of just throwing your hands in the air and saying that there is nothing that you can do about it, when in fact you can.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 16 2017, 12:19 AM

To each his own As I mentioned, unless you make your own clothes/shoes, you too are supporting child labor. If somebody wants to buy a fake guitar on ebay, I say let em. For items under $1,000, it's not worth it for a company to serve you papers. So those transactions will probably keep happening. Just like walmart and nike will keep happening. For you though I'd say don't do it. Solved

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 16 2017, 03:25 AM

I'm with Rich on this. Counterfeit is counterfeit. The maker of that guitar is illegally stealing the fruits of somebody else's hard work. I don't blame you for buying the guitar to try it, but the fact is buying it rewards the counterfeiter. Plus, once it gets into circulation, it's just a matter of time before somebody gets defrauded by a seller who passes it off as the real thing. This is not the same as some kids downloading mo3s. Sorry to get on a soapbox about this but if you had your work widely pirated in China, India, and Korea like me, you'd probably feel strongly about it too .

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 16 2017, 07:27 AM

A quick google search will quickly reveal the fallacy of your argument about clothing. There are at least hundreds of businesses that make clothes in this country that source all the materials used to make those clothes from right here in this country as well, in fact it is a growing trend and there is absolutely no child labor involved in those companies that manufacture their clothing in this way. And for me, I will do my best, as I have been, to avoid goods, counterfeit or not, that are made in China.
In fact since you are so flippant on the matter and support a black market counterfeit trade with China, I will stop supporting you as well. So please, don't bother sending me any more private messages to take part in your challenges or any other project you may start here at GMC. Thanks.

Posted by: Mertay Jul 16 2017, 12:42 PM

Its been more than a year since I bought my Jackson JS11, its currently 150 dolars in USA.

I've used it as a travel guitar and it was outside the house atleast once a week, imagine the heat/cold/rain etc. ...and it plays and works as good as the day I bought it. Congrats to Jackson that engineered something affordable but durable.

I'm ok with Chinese guitars coming from a proper company but I'm also against fake brands+guitars.

Posted by: GeneT95 Jul 16 2017, 02:30 PM

There is a difference between buying something made in a country and sold anywhere in a legit store/venue and buying something that is made, stamped, and sold with he intent of counterfiet.

That difference may be shades of grey, but there is a difference. There are many arguments for and against the first case; ethical, global, national, political, out of sight out of mind, etc.

There are few arguments that really adequately excuse knowingly buying counterfeit, recommending such, or profiting for the same. None of them involve the claim that it's ok because legitimate products involve the same vice and greed that counterfeiting does and the veneer of legitimacy is a fallacy to the extent that makes knowingly supporting counterfeiting to be ok.

The argument that its ok for me to knowingly buy a counterfeit guitar or recommend such because it is likely or possibly made by the same deplorable or questionable process as a shirt from walmart is not valid. It may be an excuse to do such, or a rationalization, but it is a fallacy of logic.

In essence, the argument is that buying a shirt or a shoe from a known company that is likely/possibly made by child labor and a counterfeit guitar that is more likely made by child labor is the same. Hence buying either of them is no different with respect to child labor and one can seemingly absolve the ethical quandary of buying counterfeit.

It is a rationalization that states, those of us that buy Nike and not a counterfeit guitar are either foolish, stupid, or selfish enough to draw an imaginary line somewhere and convince ourselves that Nike is more ethical and moral. Those of us that buy neither are unrealistic by drawing no line and finding evil in both and therefore resolving not to support because the world is as the world is and there is no fighting against it.

And Those of us that buy both are realists by arguing both are made by the same process and therefore not distinct and no line needs to be drawn. In reality, the evil that may be child labor, stealing others work, or supporting a country that has ideas regarding life/human rights different than our own is not enough to limit what we can have. It supplants or distracts from the evaluation of whether the process is moral or ethical or allowable by arguing that since it is common and likely employed by both legit and counterfeit it is therefore ok and there is no reason to feel bad or be judged poorly for that choice.

There may be arguments that may realistically support counterfeiting but arguing for counterfeiting by stating that child labor is used for all products, legit or counterfeit, is not one of them unless the person supplying such argument does not believe child labor as morally, ethically, or socially wrong.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 17 2017, 03:06 AM

No problem I haven't seen you play on anything in quite some time so I thought you'd given up on it so I thought I'd try to reach out and invite you back. But really, no problem at all.

I did want to try a scalloped guitar, without paying the crazy prices for a real yngwie strat. The buyer was honest in saying it was coming from his shop in china, which I checked out on the web. Didn't see any children there, but who knows. It's china. Sold the guitar stating clearly that it was a copy. Bought with my eyes open and sold it the same way. I can't control what happens further down the line, none of us can. Just wanted to try a scalloped neck for cheap. That's the only way I found to do it. Made sure to look in to the shop as much as possible, that's all any of us can do. Buy honestly and sell honestly, even when it's a copy. Some folks are really not ok with buying copy gear, I support their decision. I may buy one now and then, this is my first. It may be my last. Just depends if I want to try something crazy pricey before buying a real one and finding a shop that at least looks like they hire adults. Could have just said I thought it was real and fibbed on the price I paid, but I'm not in to that so like other folks that have tried chinese guitars, I tried one too and just shared my experience about it

If you are not ok buying copied goods. I would say, don't buy copied goods. Simple as that. I seem to be a bit more ok with than several posters, but to each his own. I do support being straight up as to whether gear is a copy or not, whether buying or selling.

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 17 2017, 01:31 PM

Is this the first in a series of threads where Todd admits to committing a federal crime? . Are embezzlement and money laundering coming up next? Seriously though, and correct me if I'm wrong, but forum rules prohibit discussion of criminal activity.

Posted by: Mertay Jul 17 2017, 02:38 PM

I understand the ethic side of Todd experience can be argued but I disagree calling his action criminal activity.

Its not like the guitar was smuggled to USA as if it was drugs, some official let the item pass. The maker of the guitar is guilty sure, but if they are letting that item into the country (where Fender is....) then the users cannot be blamed. Thats why what Todd is doing isn't illegal.

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 17 2017, 02:48 PM

Sorry to blunt, but you are wrong. Rich's post above is correct. In this country, knowingly selling counterfeit goods is a federal crime. You can debate the moral issue, but selling counterfeits is inarguably illegal.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 17 2017, 06:19 PM

I guess this would be the first Its sure heating up the views so though maybe money laundering is on deck but I kinda doubt it. I guess I could embezzle from myself or something If buying one fake strat gets this kind of attention, I may have to put it on my youtube channel. Certainly a hot button topic it seems.

Going over the speed limit and fudging on your taxes are illegal as well. We got wads of laws here to be sure I must also admit I have broken the speed limit in times of hurry.



As for the law..

The U.S. Department of Justice, however, has stated that federal law doesn’t prohibit an individual from buying a counterfeit product for personal use, even if they do so knowingly.http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/buying-counterfeit-goods-laws-and-resources.html


So yeah you can buy a fake strat if you want But if you dont' then don't. It's that simple. Let's all try to keep our personal politics out of it if we can. Hopefully just post about guitar stuff. This post started as a review of a fake. That's it If we all keep our politics to ourselves I think the forum would be much better served.

As far as legality, I didn't sell it, I was thinking of a different guitar, it was stolen. Problem solved

I am open to questions about the quality of the instrument and such or other folks who have tried them and what they think.

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 17 2017, 06:36 PM

You need to go back and edit your post where you admitted selling it .

I know it probably feels like everyone is ganging up on you, telling you what you are doing is unethical and illegal. Personally, I don't fault you. Heck, I've been tempted myself. But I can tell you this much: once you are the victim of a crime like this, you tend to take it more seriously.

Posted by: liveOASISforever Jul 17 2017, 06:48 PM

This personally feels to me as if its massively getting blowing out of proportion for one fake guitar. Surely there are much more serious things happening in the world to get upset about.

To be honest a see more serious things happening every weekend when am out in the pubs.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 17 2017, 07:19 PM

Todd is correct in stating that it is not necessarily illegal to buy a counterfeit item and maybe it should be, but the problem is that it is absolutely illegal to sell it.
What I don't understand is why he felt the need to actually buy a counterfeit guitar with a scalloped neck to try it out and then promote it here when he surely could have found a legit guitar in a music store in a city as big as Atlanta to try out and determine in a short period of time whether or not it suited him. I live in Alaska and I found both an Yngwie and a Blackmore Strat to try up here in 2 different music stores and it didn't cost me anything other than gas money and time to get into Anchorage.

Do you see things in the pubs that contributes to negatively affecting the economy of your country to a tune of up to 250 billion dollars a year or more depending on how you look at it?

Posted by: Phil66 Jul 17 2017, 07:29 PM

Where do all the doctors stand who sell and install fake breasts??????

Sorry to lower the tone, just trying to lighten things up a bit

Posted by: liveOASISforever Jul 17 2017, 07:31 PM

I really couldnt care less. One fake guitar.Its no the end of the world. I have done much worse things myself

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 17 2017, 07:44 PM

One raindrop doesn't amount to much either but when it is combined with many others it can result in flooding.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 17 2017, 08:00 PM

Uggh. To reiterate.

As for the law..

The U.S. Department of Justice, however, has stated that federal law doesn’t prohibit an individual from buying a counterfeit product for personal use, even if they do so knowingly


http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/buying-counterfeit-goods-laws-and-resources.html

I quoted the law for you to try to update you on what the law says. Read it again, it's perfectly legal to buy a fake for personal use. PERFECTLY LEGAL, so yes, it's LEGAL to buy any fake you want for personal use. It's "Trafficking" that's illegal. One unit does NOT constitute "Trafficking" so your argument that it's a federal crime to buy and sell one fake is simply flat out wrong.

It's not everyone gangine up, just a few folks like you and RICH. But believe me I'd taken grief from far more griefy folks than you two so knock yourself out. But yeah, again NOT ILLEGAL to buy a fake for personal use, NOT a federal crime.

As for rammikins beef with fakes, Yeah I"m guessing you got really taken advantage of somehow which is why you have such a beef with this. I guess I'd be miffed to if someone got the better of me. Good news for me is, I went in eyes open so I don't have the same beef you do with it. No need to share how you got taken, I get it, you got taken and now your miffed. It happens, especially on the interweb. But I would say get updated on the law as written before accusing someone of a "Federal Crime". Just going a bit far imho.



Todd

RICH! Thank you for your continued support of my thread Thought you were out but good to see you back! Sadly you argument is a logical fallacy called "The Slippery Slope" it's so common it's got a name. Logical fallacy does not make for good argument.




BINGO!! We have a bit of zealotry going on, which happens when an issue hits people the wrong way. They get over zealous and over reach and blow things way out of proportion. It's one fake guitar. Not the apocalypse.




My thoughts exactly But we do have several logical fallacy arguments blowing it up in to ruination of our economy and such.





Now that's talking about something I'm sure we would all like to know. What if the implant came from China? Even if it didn't it's still a fake! Is trafficking in fake breasts the ruination of our economy! Yes! One gal getting a boob job leads to millions of gals getting a boob job and then the world explodes!! Well done

Todd

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 17 2017, 08:29 PM

It is illegal to sell counterfeit goods. Even one guitar. In my line of business, this is something one becomes very familiar with. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. But that would be like me telling you you're wrong about something related to playing the guitar .

Again, I'm not condemning you for what you did. In fact I think it's very understandable. My only purpose in jumping into this thread is to point out that one's sensitivity to this issue is related to whether or not you've been a victim of this crime. I suppose that's true of a lot of crimes. Anyway, I think that helps explain why some people think this is important and others don't.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 17 2017, 08:41 PM

I found the law you are talking about!! Did not know it till now. But yeah I won't be selling anymore fakes or buying them. I've decided to change my story to "I BURNED IT". Didn't even get stolen So I bought it for personal use, which is legal, then set it on fire.

I think rich is more concerned on principle just from his posts, but I could be wrong. maybe he got taken as well. evidently you must have gotten hit BAAAAD by this somehow as you really are on the war path about it where most folks just see is as "meh, so what it's a fake". Which is more how I see it.

As for "made in america" which is a big new promo by our president. It's hypocrisy at it's best. Wads of his products are made in CHINA and we have no idea how young the employees are. Yet he is pushing' Made in America". Horse raddish.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/07/16/white-house-unveils-made-in-america-week-though-many-trump-products-are-made-overseas/?utm_term=.cebb2052a624

His daughter Ivanka makes use of a factory in CHINA to make her branded clothing line. The shop has been accused of multiple violations including long hours poor conditions and pay as low as $63 a week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/workers-endured-long-hours-low-pay-at-chinese-factory-used-by-ivanka-trumps-clothing-maker/2017/04/25/b6fe6608-2924-11e7-b605-33413c691853_story.html?utm_term=.4338bbf34cc8

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 17 2017, 08:55 PM

Whatever man. You can ignore the bigger picture if you like but it doesn't change anything. What you have done is wrong no matter how you try to rationalize it. There really is no good argument for it. You're welcome.

Posted by: Mertay Jul 17 2017, 09:15 PM

My luthiers experience; Some kid one day bought a customshop Fender, my luthier immediatly noticed that it was a real deal American strat but the customshop logo on it was fake. The store sold the kid a real Fender that was a fake customshop model, hopefully they were found guilty.

This is how counterfeits are achnowledged as illegal, but selling it as a copy of something by the seller is legal. I also dislike this and consider as a loophole, such items simply should not exists but as an honest seller Todd isn't doing anything illegal.

Edit; Maybe we can see it like what Kemper does? not exactly but sort of similar situation to me.



Thats a good one

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 17 2017, 09:34 PM

I know you're trying to help, and that you dislike the practice of producing counterfeit guitars, but what you're saying about the legality simply is not true. Even Todd admits selling counterfeits in the US is illegal.

Posted by: Mertay Jul 17 2017, 10:09 PM

I feel there is a gray area we're missing.

Example's like software sampling, music after mp3, taste and smell copyed wine and perfume, mona lisa pictures all over the internet...unless the seller lies to make illegal profit, all legal actions I've known were always made to the (so called) companys that make these fake items not to their customers.

If this is strickly written by law in USA, I'm ok with your argument but to me if a law isn't put in action by authoritys then someone in the position of Todd is the last guy to blame. Frankly, in such a real world blaming the users harder or as hard the their goverment or the fake company are also to me unethical or atleast unfair.

Edit; oh there also the "happy birthday" song which is copyrighted in USA, no family not paying to sing it at home can be considered criminals its simply too harsh.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 18 2017, 06:04 AM

The law is clear as to the illegality of selling counterfeit goods. It makes no difference if Todd made a profit or not, or if he was honest about it being a counterfeit or not. However, the chances that he would be charged and prosecuted for the crime are remote because he is a small fish so to speak. The Fed's, and Fender would be much more interested in the person or persons responsible for selling him the counterfeit guitar. But then again, sometimes the Fed's like to make an example of what can happen to even the small fish in such matters to remind everyone that the sale of counterfeit goods is highly illegal.
Probably the only reason the Fed's would go after Todd is if they thought he could provide information that would result in the prosecution of the bigger fish, in which case they would likely cut a deal with him where Todd would avoid prosecution in exchange for information that would lead to a bigger bust. It doesn't seem likely that Todd has any such information. The Fed's are much more interested in busting the original sellers or organization which would actually yield some meaningful results in curbing the illegal counterfeit trade.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 22 2017, 03:58 AM

Whatever indeed Thanks for your continued support of my thread here Please feel free to continue supporting it with as many posts as you like. Try to avoid logical fallacy in your arguments if possible though, they make fore VERY weak arguments indeed.

Here is a link to a list of logical fallacies which I'm sure you will find familiar. They are very effective on folks that have no idea what a logical fallacy is. I do know what one is so they don't work on me nearly as well. At least I got something out of all that time in Uni

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/

But let's keep out judgmental comments to ourselves and I think the forum will be better for it.

If the feds are interested in curbing fakes on ebay, they certainly don't show it. There are more fake strats on ebay than you can count. All of them come from china. Like a lot of products sold by Donald and Ivanka trump. China is a still a cheap place to maek stuff. So they make wads of fake stuff as well. All the feds would have to do is look on ebay for a wad of fakes seller. Even ebay claims to be against the practice, yet they let these guys sell anyway. I'm just the end buyer. And no, I don't think someone buying a fake strat is going to cause the economy to implode. If the feds thought it was that important, they would do something about it and I would not have 1000 fake strats to choose from. Beyond that it's a judgement call. If one doesn't want to buy fakes, one should not. Simple as that. Telling me what's "right and wrong" isn't your business, nor anybodies business. I"ll make my own decisions thanks. Your welcome

Posted by: Rammikin Jul 22 2017, 06:38 AM

Let it go. Four people took the time to politely reply to your thread saying they had ethical objections to counterfeit guitars. As for the legal aspect, you admitted you didn't know the federal law that forbids selling counterfeit goods but now you do. Leave it there and move on. Life is too short.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 23 2017, 03:59 AM

That's my point exactly. Folks should keep their ethical objections to themselves IMHO as they have nothing to do with guitar. It's a personal decision to buy a fake or not. It's really nobody elses business to judge it. Let's all keep our judgements to ourselves eh? Just keep it business as it were in terms of guitar. That's what I wish folks would let go.

But again, it's perfectly legal to buy a FAKE for personal use. It gets tricky when you try and sell it. But even though it's technical illegal, it's a small fry thing to sell a fake so it's not gonna cause any issue more than likely as it happen on ebay every single day. The ethical ramifications are a personal decision. Not a public decision. For those who disagree with fakes, that's fine. I don't need to hear about it. The forum would be better served imho if we just kept it to guitar. Let everything else go.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 24 2017, 05:03 PM

You shouldn't have posted about it here if you didn't want to hear about it.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 27 2017, 02:00 PM

Thanks for your continued support of this thread again But yeah, I don't mind hearing about the guitar, it's the judgemetnal attitude I could do without. As one poster mentioned after one of your posts. " I couldn't care less, I've done worse things myself". Which I'm sure is true. It's was my experience with a bit of gear, not a confessional seeking absolution. That's the part I was hoping we could just keep to ourselves

But, it did generate some heat in the forum!! So if I buy another bit of something controversial I'll probably share it as well just to generate a bit more buzz and get some participation happening. Even seems to work on folks who swore they wouldn't participate!

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 27 2017, 05:03 PM

Yes, I see. No shame to your game. Thanks for the glimpse into your true character. Now I'll leave you to it.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 29 2017, 07:59 AM

Yet more support! After swearing to not support/post etc. Do I see a bit in to your "true character" as well? I tell you what. Let's avoid looking in to each others soul and just keep it about guitar eh?

Todd