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Modes
MrVegas
Sep 18 2020, 11:43 PM
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i have learned all my modes, i haven't really played over backing, but i started today on B dorian over a B minor7.
i will move on to C#phrygian, over C#minor7 next. then D lydian over Dmajor7, and so on.

is this the correct practice of modes over chords? or should i also focus on using certain modes with chords that are not built from the same degree of the major scale the mode comes from? this statement is confusing

what i mean is a mode like B dorian, are there specific chords other than Bminor its good with like C#minor? or when i'm on C#minor should i always focus on C#phrygian? and so on?

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 19 2020, 12:38 AM
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Hi mate! I don't understand exactly your questions, but let's talk about this so I can guide you with modes.

There are many approaches and uses for modes, but let's start with the basics. If you are playing over a Bm 7 vamp, you can play these 3 modes:

- B Dorian
- B Phrygian
- B Aeolian

You can also play B harmonic minor, and B melodic minor.



Let me know if this is clear.

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MrVegas
Sep 19 2020, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 18 2020, 11:38 PM) *
There are many approaches and uses for modes, but let's start with the basics. If you are playing over a Bm 7 vamp, you can play these 3 modes:

- B Dorian
- B Phrygian
- B Aeolian

i played these three modes over the backing, i see how they sound differnt, and good. so any minor chord can use any minor mode, excpet for locrian?
After i played over the Bm 7 vamp, i played over a Amajor vamp using A ionian, A Lydian, and A Mixolydian. to my ears A ionian and A Lydian sounds good, mixolydian didnt sound to bad but the flatted 7 was wierd.

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 18 2020, 11:38 PM) *
Hi mate! I don't understand exactly your questions, but let's talk about this so I can guide you with modes.

yea im a bit confused on the modes, i have the shapes down but confused on how to apply them.
i thought that if your in a key, say c major and the progression is I-iii-IV you would use C Ionian on I, E phrygian on iii, and F Lydian on IV. i see you can do that, but you also pointed out that the minor quality modes can be used over any minor chord, i didn't realize that until i jammed over the one chord vamp using three different modes.
hope im still not being confusing, cause i think im confusing myself, maybe overthinking it wink.gif

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klasaine
Sep 19 2020, 04:58 PM
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Just to be clear, C ionian, E phrygian and F lydian all contain the same notes. The notes of the C major scale. That's not modal playing per se. You're just playing in the key of C major.
An example of "modal" playing within that particular chord progression would be if you chose to use C lydian over the I chord, E Dorian or Aeolian over the iii chord and F Ionian or mixolydian on the IV chord.

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 19 2020, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (MrVegas @ Sep 18 2020, 09:36 PM) *
i played these three modes over the backing, i see how they sound differnt, and good. so any minor chord can use any minor mode, excpet for locrian?
After i played over the Bm 7 vamp, i played over a Amajor vamp using A ionian, A Lydian, and A Mixolydian. to my ears A ionian and A Lydian sounds good, mixolydian didnt sound to bad but the flatted 7 was wierd.

yea im a bit confused on the modes, i have the shapes down but confused on how to apply them.
i thought that if your in a key, say c major and the progression is I-iii-IV you would use C Ionian on I, E phrygian on iii, and F Lydian on IV. i see you can do that, but you also pointed out that the minor quality modes can be used over any minor chord, i didn't realize that until i jammed over the one chord vamp using three different modes.
hope im still not being confusing, cause i think im confusing myself, maybe overthinking it wink.gif



Mixolydian doesn't sound good over Maj7 chords, it should be played over Dominant chords.

Modes can be confusing. I think that the main problem is that we want to understand everything by once. The modes have many applications and ways to be approached. I think that the first goal should be to be able to hear the "color" of each mode when playing over 1 chord.

Guthrie's approach to this first "goal" is great.



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Kristofer Dahl
Sep 19 2020, 08:15 PM
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Mr Vegas -

The reason so many people are confused about modes - is because they are often presented as children of the major scale. Although this is certainly true, I personally think starting this way is a useless method.

So I think you should forget about all that, and [as an example] learn D Dorian mode as if it were scale like any other, having nothing to do with C Major
.

So that means trying it out over a Dm chord, or even a D Dorian chord progression (like Dm- GMaj - Am).

In my opinion this is the best way to learn to hear the Dorian sound. In other words the only truly way to learn to use it.

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klasaine
Sep 20 2020, 04:50 PM
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+1 to what Kris just mentioned. Hear the "sound" of each mode.
Record or loop a single note drone - A for example.
Solo over that drone using the various modes all starting from the same root tone.
A ionian - A B C# D E F# G# A
A dorian - A B C D E F# G A
A phrygian - A Bb C D E F G A
A lydian - A B C# D# E F# G# A
Etc.

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 20 2020, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 20 2020, 12:50 PM) *
+1 to what Kris just mentioned. Hear the "sound" of each mode.
Record or loop a single note drone - A for example.
Solo over that drone using the various modes all starting from the same root tone.
A ionian - A B C# D E F# G# A
A dorian - A B C D E F# G A
A phrygian - A Bb C D E F G A
A lydian - A B C# D# E F# G# A
Etc.



Exactly! This is a very powerful exercise.

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MrVegas
Sep 21 2020, 01:29 AM
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thank you everyone, this thread cleared up alot. i played with the modes today, using the same chord for different modes, i can hear how distinct each mode can be.
gabe i liked the video with guthrie govan and his explanation on soloing and using the notes, how he says each note is special, im on your modern rock ballad lick lesson now and from what he is saying in his video is important to playing a solo like your lesson. thanks guys.

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 21 2020, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (MrVegas @ Sep 20 2020, 09:29 PM) *
thank you everyone, this thread cleared up alot. i played with the modes today, using the same chord for different modes, i can hear how distinct each mode can be.
gabe i liked the video with guthrie govan and his explanation on soloing and using the notes, how he says each note is special, im on your modern rock ballad lick lesson now and from what he is saying in his video is important to playing a solo like your lesson. thanks guys.



Nice to know that modes are now getting clear! Enjoy my new lesson and please keep us updated on your progress so we can continue guiding and giving feedback. wink.gif

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PosterBoy
Sep 28 2020, 09:11 PM
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I think one of the biggest problems with modes is people teach the modal scales but rarely go into accompaniment side of modal playing.

I remember trying to use the modes with normal pop rock progressions which are mainly diatonic I / V / VI / IV type things and it doesn't really happen because it isn't 'modal'

It's only when I looked at Flying a blue dream and the chord progression I understood why Lydian works.

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Phil66
Sep 28 2020, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 20 2020, 04:50 PM) *
+1 to what Kris just mentioned. Hear the "sound" of each mode.
Record or loop a single note drone - A for example.
Solo over that drone using the various modes all starting from the same root tone.
A ionian - A B C# D E F# G# A
A dorian - A B C D E F# G A
A phrygian - A Bb C D E F G A
A lydian - A B C# D# E F# G# A
Etc.


I'm not going to look at modes for a long time but I've always found the concept interesting and confusing. This method seems an easier way to remember them, maybe remembering the intervals of each mode would be even easier than remembering the notes of each mode. Maybe I'm easy off the mark laugh.gif

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klasaine
Sep 29 2020, 08:28 AM
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There are a lot of ways to skin the modal cat. Pick whatever seems to work for you. Don't be afraid of them. They're just scales with fancy names. Each one has a 'flavor'. All good improvisors employ a modal approach to some extent in their playing - even if they don't know what to call it. And they tend to favor certain flavors. This goes for rock, jazz, flamenco, etc.

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Phil66
Sep 29 2020, 09:46 AM
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The other thing is remembering which key each mode is in if you remember the modes with, let's say, A as the root as in your example. I do seem to have a mental block with theory so maybe I find it more difficult than most.

Maybe I'm creating that block myself, mentally.

Cheers

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Caelumamittendum
Sep 29 2020, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Sep 29 2020, 10:46 AM) *
The other thing is remembering which key each mode is in if you remember the modes with, let's say, A as the root as in your example. I do seem to have a mental block with theory so maybe I find it more difficult than most.

Maybe I'm creating that block myself, mentally.

Cheers


For me it's just remembering the order of the 7 modes. I mean, they always come in the same order - Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

Say A is the root in any of the modes - I throw A phrygian at you, the following mode will be Bb lydian and so on. F aeolian? Previous one is Eb mixolydian, following one G locrian.

Maybe I'm not getting your "question" correctly here though. Here's another take at it:

If we take A phrygian, which would be the "third" mode. Work our way backwards - we have G dorian and F ionian. We could consider F major the key of the song. I have however seen people notate it differently throughout my years of playing - some tab books indicate that we are in A phrygian by writing it in the start of the song.

I do think learning the intervals in the modes is beneficial too - and knowing them in relation to the relative major key:

Ionian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Dorian: 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
Phrygian: 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
...and so on

This gave me more of an understand why C ionian (C D E F G A cool.gif sounded different to E phrygian (E F G A B C D). Though of course you gotta remember that if the chord progression underneath is playing an ionian sounding progression, then your phrygian phrases will not sound that phrygian.

It gets a bit long and winding now, I suppose. A found Frank Gambale's "Modes no More Mystery" interesting:

https://vimeo.com/322763149

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 29 2020, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 29 2020, 04:28 AM) *
Don't be afraid of them. They're just scales with fancy names.



hahaha love this quote. Wise comment!! biggrin.gif

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Caelumamittendum
Sep 29 2020, 04:09 PM
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Just found this video. Not watched it all yet though:

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Phil66
Sep 29 2020, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 29 2020, 10:34 AM) *
This gave me more of an understand why C ionian (C D E F G A cool.gif sounded different to E phrygian (E F G A B C D). Though of course you gotta remember that if the chord progression underneath is playing an ionian sounding progression, then your phrygian phrases will not sound that phrygian.


Thanks Ben,

I watched 10 minutes, Gambale talks as though it is easy, which it probably is to him but, to me, it's like quantum physics laugh.gif

Maybe one day I'll look into it, for now, I'll stick to basic stuff i think wink.gif

Cheers

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Todd Simpson
Sep 29 2020, 10:07 PM
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Once you know the patterns of each scale, you can see how, as BEN mentions, they all connect together. Once you can see this connection between them, it gets much easier to map out longer scale runs and long tapping runs/licks. Using the scale generator here on GMC you can see the layout over the entire neck of any given scale in any given key. It's a very handy to for providing an overview of the interlocking nature of the scales. Here is E Minor mapped over the first 12 frets and it just repeats at fret 12 onward. Any blue circles are "Root" tones (.E.G. Each one is an "E") which create a sense of resolution in a solo passage. Soloing is all "Tension and Release". building tension moving away from the root and resolving the tension with the root. Of course, you can just leave it hanging and never land on the root if you want to create that vibe.

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Caelumamittendum
Sep 29 2020, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 29 2020, 11:07 PM) *
Once you know the patterns of each scale, you can see how, as BEN mentions, they all connect together. Once you can see this connection between them, it gets much easier to map out longer scale runs and long tapping runs/licks. Using the scale generator here on GMC you can see the layout over the entire neck of any given scale in any given key. It's a very handy to for providing an overview of the interlocking nature of the scales. Here is E Minor mapped over the first 12 frets and it just repeats at fret 12 onward. Any blue circles are "Root" tones (.E.G. Each one is an "E") which create a sense of resolution in a solo passage. Soloing is all "Tension and Release". building tension moving away from the root and resolving the tension with the root. Of course, you can just leave it hanging and never land on the root if you want to create that vibe.

Attached Image


Yep! I instantly recognize the mode-scale shapes on that fretboard view. But of course it still matters what the underlying music is doing. If the underlying chords are playing C F G (1-4-5 progression in C major) playing any of the notes will have major sound to it, I'd say. That's my understanding. But if you have more of a phrygian chord progression (for instance Em F Em F, though my phrygian chord progressions are kinda escaping me here) you might hear more of that phrygian sound too.

For me it's about the whole of the song anyway - what all of the tonal instruments are doing.

But of course recognizing the sound and flavor of each mode can come from playing them over a root note, i.e. A phrygian over an A note drone, A lydian over an A note drone.

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