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Posted by: Disturbed21 Oct 21 2008, 04:08 PM

Whoever did this one is clever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTp-tRmEmg

Posted by: The Uncreator Oct 21 2008, 04:11 PM

Lolzorz McCain is the bad guy

He always did look a bit shifty to me

Posted by: kaznie_NL Oct 21 2008, 04:12 PM

Looks cool

Posted by: Praetorian Oct 21 2008, 04:12 PM

Only problem is...Obama should be the bad guy

Posted by: Capt.Z Oct 21 2008, 04:16 PM

Very true

Posted by: The Uncreator Oct 21 2008, 04:17 PM

They should both be Sith as far as im concerned

Posted by: Disturbed21 Oct 21 2008, 04:18 PM

Ok lets not turn this into a political fight...

You gotta admit though bush at the end is too true

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 21 2008, 04:20 PM

I pray Obama wins over McCain.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Oct 21 2008, 04:31 PM

Im Canadian and i would vote Obama over McCain..whats hilarious is Canada just had a national election... did anyone notice

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 21 2008, 04:32 PM

Where's Canada.

I'm joking of course

Posted by: Disturbed21 Oct 21 2008, 04:54 PM

I'm too busy trying to come up with ways to mock our election down here in the U.S.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 21 2008, 06:31 PM

Pretty good question mate.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 22 2008, 05:52 AM

Yeah, I pray Obama wins over McCain too. That's because I want my country to lose even more jobs, spend many more tax dollars on government giveaways, socialize our economy by "spreading the wealth", weaken our military, wave the white flag in Iraq and pull out, liberalise our society to the point of absurdity, and put a liberal rookie in charge of the world's greatest nation. And you know what? I'm sure every one of our enemies prays that Obama wins also...bet on it.

Posted by: mjsteps Oct 22 2008, 10:13 AM

Well seeing this is the "chill out'' room it appears to me no matter what the outcome with our elections that the joke is on "the tax payers". You have to find humor in the absurb otherwise insanity prevails.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 22 2008, 12:23 PM

Humour . If Obama comes in to office he will do a good job. McCain is too much like George Bush. I think Obama would be great for America. He actually is a very intelligent man who knows what he is doing.

Posted by: AnyJimmy Oct 22 2008, 01:10 PM

weeeeell, Barack Obama might be a rookie, but then, what is Sarah Palin? She's only been governor of Alaska for 2 years, and before that, she was the mayor in the smallest town in the world. And before she was chosen as VP candidate, she'd never been outside of the US. John McCain will probably be dead within his possible 8 years in office, and that'll leave the US with a president whom nobody really knows anything about except that she likes shooting stuff.
Thats really, really scary, if you ask me. Like Matt Damon said: "I would really like to know if this lady thinks dinosaurs existed 4000 years ago."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk

Apart from that, GMC probably shouldn't be where we discuss political issues

Posted by: Fsgdjv Oct 22 2008, 01:58 PM

Actually, I wouldn't be that worried about McCain winning if it weren't for Sarah Palin.

Posted by: AnyJimmy Oct 22 2008, 02:02 PM

completely true. She's horrible.

edit: double post

Posted by: Ajmurrell Oct 22 2008, 02:05 PM

My family had some canadians over for dinner the other day, they're in the UK working abroad for a few years. They bought a copy of The Times newspaper to read up about the election which had taken place the day before, and it wasn't even mentioned!

Now I could understand if it wasn't in The Sun (a TRASH newspaper), but The Times? Thats quite shocking!

Posted by: Guitarman700 Oct 22 2008, 02:37 PM

GMC is NOT the place for political arguments, lets keep it civil, ok? Were all friends here!

Posted by: Smikey2006 Oct 22 2008, 06:28 PM

actually the Canadian election was a waste of time and effort and my tax money. We voted and got the exact same result as last time. What sucks about Canada is #1 we have no outstanding leaders #2 the way we vote is by area not by political leader. We vote for who we want representing small areas therefore alot of people vote for the parties with bad policies based strictly on the charisma of the party representative in that area. Its a poorly designed system. I like the American system better, where you vote for the leader who has the best policies and whom you think will represent the country the best.. AND america actually has some descent leaders (Obama) Canada as a scary looking guy (jack layton) A robot (Stephen Harper (our PM)) and a slow old liberal who can't speak english (stephan dion) .... what a waste of paper.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Oct 22 2008, 06:46 PM

You like a system where people vote for guys sponsored by huge monopolists, and than do what these corporations says? 'cos no other candidate have any chances of winning due to lack of enormous cash reserves for campaign? Democracy is a comedy... Still for now, this is still the best system for us...

Posted by: Fsgdjv Oct 22 2008, 07:12 PM

I don't really want to get involved with political discussions, but.. This post is one of the best I've seen on gmc and I completely agree. Also with the part about democacy being the best system right now, so no need to get upset.

EDIT: Just to claritfy, what I meant with that is pretty much that what we have is now is not the end of the road, and people should not see it as that, but always find ways to improve the system. I do not support anything else than the democracy we have now, but I see a lot of flaws in it and hope that some day it can get even better.

Posted by: JVM Oct 22 2008, 07:27 PM

Emperor Bush at the end is the best.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Oct 22 2008, 07:50 PM

im a communist through and through, but this is not the time for communism, the masses are not ready, so... the best we have is democracy, and i want my democracy as socialist as possible..

Posted by: Noangels Oct 22 2008, 08:54 PM

If i remember right it was McCain who was dropping bombs for fun in Vietnam and sang Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran when asked what he would do with them!

Why is Obama a bad guy?dont like his tax plans?Is he a terrorist?dont like his middle name?his colour?

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 22 2008, 09:00 PM

Democracy will never be pure democracy,
only because people have made it.
And yeah,millions spent of campaign is really a bug,
we should vote for the man and not for his pocket.

Posted by: Fullmetal_Tmd Oct 22 2008, 09:01 PM

lol, what happened to people commenting on the video?

anyways, the video was entertaining, i wanna see the end though. maybe they'll make one after the election is over

Posted by: g-forcelover Oct 22 2008, 09:04 PM

Thank You for saying this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: FrankW Oct 22 2008, 10:45 PM

Obama is not a bad guy any more than Michael Moore is a bad guy. He's just clueless. Michael Moore is just an idiot.

Obama is an ultra liberal senator who wants to take money from those that work hard for it, and give it to those that don't deserve it.

He is completely unprepared to deal in foreign affairs because he has no experience. He is willing to speak with rogue dictators without preconditions, which is naive and reckless.
He wants to tax large corporations which will only mean that the cost is deferred to the middle class. He has questionable associations with radicals like William Ayers, Reverend Wright, Father Fagler, and Louis Farrakhan...all who hate their own country.

John McCain is an experienced senator, ex-fighter pilot who understands how to deal with our enemies. He is an honorable man who wants to work, and has worked, both sides of the aisle to keep our country strong, rather than wallow in the ridiculous partisanship of our present congress and senate, both of whom are dominated by the democrats.

And yeah, if you ask me what I would do with an Iran that wants to destroy Israel and denies the Holocaust, and finances terrorists that kill our soldiers in Iraq...I would say the exact same thing as McCain. As for McCain dropping bombs in Vietnam for fun...are you on drugs?

Political discussions are always potentially volatile. I'll only respond to the most ridiculous comments from those who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Posted by: RandomVictim Oct 22 2008, 10:54 PM

Obama 08!!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 23 2008, 01:52 AM

So far so good - but lets keep it relaxed and civil please!

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Oct 23 2008, 02:18 AM

Amen.


NObama08

Taking from the rich and giving to the poor is absurd.

Its like eating CocoPuffs with your Pants off, It just doesnt make sense !



" Its not that liberals are ignorant, its just everything they say is wrong" - Reagan

Posted by: JVM Oct 23 2008, 03:02 AM

I will agree that Obama perhaps lacks foreign policy experience. However, I don't subscribe to the notion that he lacks political experience in general, and I think Biden is a great consultant for him on foreign matters. I do think he is an intelligent enough person to deal with these issues.

Yes, the cost of certain products/services is deferred to the middle class if we tax their respective corporations more, but that is looking at a very limited view of the situation. The market as a whole will do much better with a middle class that is relieved of tax strains and this far outweighs trickle down costs of products/services of taxed corporations. Excuse me if I did not understand you clearly.

If you believe that his (mostly very limited) associations with the people you mentioned is any indication of his character as an individual, then I must simply disagree with you. It is not.

McCain is experienced. I think he is good man, and in fact I liked him before this election. I understand that things get tough during the campaigns but he has been downright inappropriate in terms of his accusations of Obama, but what scares me the most is his choice of Gov. Palin, who, if you want to talk about experience, is under no circumstances in my eyes fit to be either VP or especially the president. It honestly scares me that she is, and I don't like to quote Jack Cafferty but he's right on this one, "A 72 year old heart beat away" from the world's most powerful political position.

I also, unfortunately, think it is a very real possibility that someone will try to shoot Obama. We can hear even just from McCain rallies that some (certainly a minority, but still) of his supporters are downright ignorant and hateful.

Worth watching: Colin Powell's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD3E-m01Q34 of Obama.

Posted by: Déjà vu Oct 23 2008, 03:29 AM

Yeah I agree with you. I think talking about politics can be a bloodbath... Especially with me .

EDIT: So, I probably won't be participating in this post (but, the temptations are HUGE!!)

Posted by: Smikey2006 Oct 23 2008, 03:48 AM

Ive been trying to write something for a while now and my stupid computer keeps selecting all the text and deleting it without my consent! So here's my last attempt! I think it is absolutely horrible that some people care so little for there fellow man that they are willing to agree with the right wing violent policy regarding foreign affairs. The liberals have great policies regarding foreign contact and establishing peaceful relations with people who are now our enemies. The right wing simply wants to deal with our enemies as though they will always be our enemies. Now i am by no means a stick a flower in your gun Hippy but the united states military tactics are pitiful excuses for little men to push big buttons. Saddam Hussan's death could have just have easily come by a sniper bullet from a US rifle.. instead a full scale invasion. (not to mention it was the US who put him in power in the first place).

The Iraq invasion was based on the "war on terror". The terrorists killed a few thousand US citizens.. the US invasion killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Civilians.

The list could go on and im sure many right winged people are going to attack my comments and many left winged are going to support me. But the US NEEDS A LEADER WHO WILL BRING THE US BACK SOME RESPECT! Someone who is going to work on internal issues before looking for enemies to spend billions on bombs to kill. What the US needs to do is cut your military budget down 90$ and spend that money on fixing your own country before you use it to destroy someone elses. Establishing good relations is easier to do and less expensive then to kill your enemies. McCain is another war monger, he is pro war and will continue the U.S on its current path which unfortunately is the path to an economic depression (caused largely due to military spending). Unfortunately if the United states does not get its act together China is going to be the new world super power.. and as much as i dislike US governmental policy.. i don't like China's take on "communism" any better..

Posted by: fkalich Oct 23 2008, 03:54 AM

Look, I voted for Bush. And not ashamed of that. I am voting for Obama. He has to work with congress, it is not like he can make us all wear Mao outfits and carry a little red book. He will have to be a bit moderate to survive. However, he will get along better with the rest fo the world I think, and that is pretty important going forward.

I just don't see any positive with McCain. I felt years ago he was the most overrated politician in America. And now he is a 72 year old overrated politician.

It is not like Obama does not have to work with congress. If he goes against the will of the people, he is two years away from having the other party controlling congress. Congress passes the laws, and controls the money, not the President.

That is what happened with Clinton. He started out thinking he was going to go directions, but then realized he had to be more moderate to survive. So he fired his wife, and became a moderate democrat. Obama will be ok. I think he has great potential. Also being the first major country in the world with a Black president is something to be proud of. McCain is just a real poor candidate. The Republicans should have put in a better candidate.

Posted by: ace_frehely Oct 23 2008, 04:02 AM

Guys its all about

Posted by: fkalich Oct 23 2008, 04:26 AM

Having a Black president will do a lot more for us in international relations than having a woman would. It has nothing to do with Obama himself, it just will have appeal to the international community. Just the way it will be, that is obvious.

I don't think Hillary would have been bad. Generally I used to vote Republican, but they have got to change now, to go with the times. And they have not. People like Rush have to become fringe element, and they have to evolve into something a bit different, or they will be a permanent minority party, as the conservatives in England have become.

The problem I have with McCain, is that the only thing he stands for, is standing for nothing. I don't want a president who stands for nothing but compromise. And I don't feel 60 votes to appoint a Federal Judge was a good thing, and he was responsible for that happening, in his power play against Bush. For 200 years a simple majority was the way they went, how all of a sudden, was some guy who graduated 899th out of 904 in his class at the Navel Academy, why was he all of s sudden smart than others had been for 200 years. That was a bad thing, you need controversial Federal judges, not compromising judges that everyone thinks is just ok. Pretty hard for a guy who is controversial to get 60% of the votes. I hold that against McCain. He just is not real bright to tell you the truth. Look G.W. had an estimated I.Q. of 127. McCain, 115. There you go.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 06:09 AM

Man, I don't know where you get your facts, but if you believe the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, you live in Dreamland. It's just that kind of inaccuracy that does a grave injustice to the brave men and women of the US military who are risking their lives in Iraq every day, until the day when Iraq can survive on its' own. We're not murderers!

We took out an evil dictator and his henchmen, and the Iraqi people are ecstatic that we did. They love us. If we killed hundreds of thousands of them, do you think that would be the case? Get your facts straight.

It's an unfortunate fact that our presence in the Middle East is necessary to ensure the stability of the region vis-a-vis our need for foreign oil.
We cannot allow Iran, or any other rogue state to dictate our oil supply. And we will not allow Iran to use nuclear weapons on our Israeli ally.

I'll say again that I think Obama is a good man. But, he is not the guy we need in the white house in trying times like these, especially. The fact is that both sides of the aisle have dropped the ball, no kidding, they're politicians! But a democratic president, especially an ultra liberal rookie like Obama, will let the democratic majority senate and congress run wild with government giveaways...he won't be able to stop them.

And if you think that only the top 5% of the working population is going to feel the tax burden, you're dreaming. The middle class will be hit hard again. When did a politician ever keep his word in regards to his campaign speeches? Don't be smitten by an eloquent speaker. Look at his voting record. Obama has accomplished nothing in his short time in office...nothing.

And I see where Sarah Palin is catching hell from many. Look, she managed a multi-billion dollar budget for her state, she called dishonest politicians to the carpet, in her own party, and she reformed the tax situation in Alaska to where her constituency got money back as a result. She actually worked for her constituency, imagine that!

Being a governor of a state, particularly one as large as Alaska, gives her more leadership credentials than any senator. She's just the kind of leader we need in Washington because she will fight cronyism, and work toward getting the government working for the people...what a concept.

And I would have no problem with her running the white house, if need be. Presidents are not emporers or kings. They are surrounded with experts in all fields, as well as the senate and congress. She would do just fine. In fact, I'm betting on it.

As far as Obamas' associations with radicals: it speaks to the guys' judgement. Ayers is an unrepentent terrorist, Wright is a racist lunatic, whose church Obama attended for 20 years, Farrakhan is also a racist rabble rouser who hates Jews and whites. This is ignored, of course, by the liberal leaning press, except for Fox News.

If John McCain hung around with members of the KKK for 20 years, how do you think he would be treated by the liberal press? All of a sudden, these associations would be extremely relevant!

I don't trust Obama to keep his word, and I don't think he has the balls to stand up to Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, two ultra liberal idealogues who would turn our country into a socialist state if they could. The democrats are weak on defense and bad about taxing the middle class to furnish handouts for those that don't deserve it.

The state of our economy and the terrorist threat dictates that we elect a leader with experience, who will not tax us into a recession, and one who will not cowtow to rogue dictators, and allow the bad guys to get the upper hand. Cutting our military is an absurd idea by someone who just doesn't get it, it's already spread way too thin as it is. I'm telling you that our enemies are praying that we elect Obama. You have to ask yourself why.

An educated voter is an informed voter. Don't listen to what these clowns say, see how they voted to get a glimpse of their personal record. McCain wins hands down.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 23 2008, 09:18 AM

I'm praying Obama gets into Office and I'm from UK so not an enemy. I think Obama will get more respect from other nations. He isn't anything like George Bush whereas I think McCain is. You need change in my opinion. Most countries have no respect for USA anymore because of their actions. I think Obama will get this respect back and with his running mate I think he can cover all important aspects well.

So yes I am praying for Obama as president.

Posted by: Siggum Oct 23 2008, 09:58 AM

I agree on that, allthough i am no expert i dislike the "we are the most powerfull nation in the world so we can do whatever the heck we want" philosophy. I think Obama will be a better diplomat, and negotiater than Bush, or Mccain.

Posted by: mjsteps Oct 23 2008, 10:13 AM

Well I will chime in on some misunderstandings as facts need to be understood in light of what we have now in the states and that is a "state run" media. The current economic woes which plague the world are a result of " democrates" controlling congress. Read the facts, the names of the banking chairs, supporters of the sub prime mortage industry.
Now the problem with elections in the states is the system, namely the electoral college. Whereby the electtion comes down to really 5 states. The next problem is that it is no longer about who can lead the free world but who ever has the most money, connections to those who hold the wealth.
Now with that said I will venture out and simply state that what is at stake is "ideaology". What ones stands for and what one is willing to do based on ones convictions, knowledge etc. And from what I can see the states for the first time is that liberal democrates will controll all three areas of the goverment, thus unlimited power and free reign to do what ever they believe in. You can imagine how this could play out and I will leave it at that.
We are witnessing things in which will change the course of history, change the the very way in which we live. If the states want change then we need to take back that which is suppose to be for all citizens and that is a goverment for the people and by the people.

Posted by: Noangels Oct 23 2008, 12:36 PM

yawn,you believe Iran wants to destroy Israel! Those comments reported in the western media are manure.He was talking about regime change,as we do to other nations!
I have knews for you sunshine our boys in Iraq are the terrorists in their eyes-the war isnt legal and shia muslims there have lots of family in Iran-who are on their border!If they want to get their arms there to use against us then they have that right to do so,considering both our nations supply arms to any other nation on the planet that wants them.
Democracy is just hypocracy on the tip of someone elses tounge,and your ignorant words here are so amusing-please keep them coming

And yes the Vetnam war was another unprovoked war on people wearing sandals and AK47's,started by a false flag operation.

And you also want to bomb Iran then?What a charming pleasent man you are!May I sugest you join our cannon fodder if there is a future world war and get in there quick to fill your blood lust.

Posted by: Smells Oct 23 2008, 01:27 PM

**Up till this point the discussion has remained civil, the last post has gone beyoned that and is now on review, try and be civil to each other guys, a difference of views/opinions doesnt need to shut down a thread **

Noangel - I`m leaving your post visible for now and for Frank to have the right of reply, I am trusting that FrankW will ignore the less civil remarks directed at him and comment only on the points & arguements you raise about his previous post.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 23 2008, 01:32 PM

I agree with Noangels points. If you attack a country they have every right to kill as many of your men as they possibly can. An illegal war it most certainly is and to suggest that attacking Iran is a wise move that is laughable.

McCain will carry on in wars with countries whereas Obama I think can mend the situation and help these fragile situations. The soldiers in Iraq are terrorists just like the people attacking in our countries for no reason. I wont go into conspiracy theories here. Just assuming they happened. If we attack them and expect them to not attack back then that is laughable.

The world is being destroyed by these leaders.

Posted by: Siggum Oct 23 2008, 01:33 PM

I'm glad the thread remains open, hopefully there will be some interresting instead of insulting discussions.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 23 2008, 01:34 PM

Yeah I hope it can remain civilised as this is an important area of discussion that you can't ignore. The choise of USA president is a huge event that the whole world is interested in as it can shape the next 10 years for world relations.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 01:55 PM

I don't think Iran wants to destroy Israel. I think they want to play patty-cake with them. You must watch a different news station than I do. Ahkmadinijead has stated on numerous occasions that Iran will wipe Israel off the map. I actually watched him speak those words. Pure manure, I know. What kind of kool aid do you drink, Junior?

As far as the unprovoked war thing goes, I never said we should have gone to Vietnam, or Iraq for that matter. I was speaking to your glib comment about John McCain bombing for fun: a ridiculous statement.

And please explain to me the difference between a legal war and an illegal one. I don't care that we attacked Iraq. I only care about the troops over there doing our governments' bidding, right or wrong. Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism in the world today, and they will have control of the Strait of Hormuz if we let them...it's about oil. You don't have to agree with that if you don't want to. To some people, the US are the bad guys. Their opinion is irrevelant to me.

Iran is training insurgents, providing weapons, and supplying IEDs to any militant faction that wants to kill infidels and Zionists, that's a fact. That's happening right now in Iraq. If you don't believe that Israel is in great danger by practically all it's neighbors, who are Arabs, that's fine with me. I just read the history books while you spout nonsense. The fact is, it's all about the religious differences between them.

Believe me when I tell you that I would very much like to be part of our cannon fodder, as you so eloquently put it. Not because I have some kind of bloodlust. But, because I would spell the young men and women who are over there right now. War is hell, but sometimes it's necessary. The fact that you can blather on speaks to the fact that you don't live in a country like Iran, where we would both be beheaded for our questionable comments.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 23 2008, 02:04 PM

I want to go into Iraq with a copy of Queen Greatest Hits Collection for every citizen. OC spreading the love since 1984. I will solve this war.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 23 2008, 02:32 PM

Good one

Posted by: Sam Hook Oct 23 2008, 04:58 PM

I'm from the UK and also hope Obama gets into office. In my opinion America is run by greed and corporate businesses, Obama is definitely a step in the right direction. And I can't understand everyone's fear and hatred of spreading wealth, what's wrong with it? Everyone is so obsessed with money, and why? So we can try to be exactly how the media tells us to be, and buy useless stuff we don't need? I don't understand it.

I'm not motivated by money at all, I don't want a fancy car when I'm older or a large house with lots of electronic crap. I just want to have a good time and enjoy life.

Anyway, I'm just a stupid teenager, so what would I know?

Posted by: Ctodd Oct 23 2008, 05:19 PM

My two cents....

I am not voting in this election, and have never voted...

I feel that too many people vote based on false or innaccurate pretenses, and that every election both candidates' ads/slogans/campaign promises are just smoke and mirrors...

I feel to really understand a candidate you would have to do a lot of research yourself and find out what that person is all about... and I don't have that kinda time.

We all know that whoever is elected into office will do their best to serve the country, and the world.


And thats good enough for me

Posted by: Smikey2006 Oct 23 2008, 05:25 PM

i want on this band wagon!

also

i found several sources quoteing the deathtoll in iraq at over 100k so.. heres my evidence.. show me evidence that its not

http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22441.pdf (official report as of 2006-2 years ago)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/casu-a28.shtml

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/1-over-one-million-iraqi-deaths-caused-by-us-occupation/

i could find more but i don't want to put the effort into something i know i can't be easily disproved about.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 06:08 PM

[quote name='Smikey2006' date='Oct 23 2008, 05:25 PM' post='279039']
i want on this band wagon!

also

i found several sources quoteing the deathtoll in iraq at over 100k so.. heres my evidence.. show me evidence that its not


http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22441.pdf (official report as of 2006-2 years ago)

Listen, you either don't get that every site you went to was a far left smear site extolling grossly exagerrated numbers, or you choose to believe such nonsense. The one accurate website you listed above , spoke of numbers of Iraqi civilian combat deaths in the 40-50 thousand range.

Bear in mind that many of these people were killed by other Iraqis, insurgents, and murderers, as well as the unfortunate collateral damage of war. So, no, we did not kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. That's not our policy and most fair minded people understand that.

The fact is, with JDAMS, LGBs, and other "smart" weapons, collateral damage is minimized. That's why they were produced. We have no intention of killing the innocent, only the enemy, and they have interspersed themselves among the innocent, in many cases using them as human shields, to perpetrate their crimes against humanity.

When was the last time an American "terrorist" blew up a bunch of innocent civilians by detonating a bomb vest, or a car bomb, just to further their fanatical beliefs?

It's wrong that we are involved in the Middle East. Our leaders have not had the foresight to persue alternative energy sources to alleviate our dependence on foreign oil. But, because of what happened on 9-11-01, we are now in it.

Religious fanatics want us gone, and Israel gone. We won't let that happen. If we have to turn all of the Middle East into a giant parking lot to keep them from trying to destroy us, we will. As long as we don't actively persue the enemy, they will try to hit us, like on 9-11. We'll chase these lunatics to the four corners of the earth before we're done.

Obama wants to negotiate with terrorists like Akhmadinijead. That only validates this nut as a world leader. The talking has been over for a long time...it hasn't worked with Saddam Hussein, and it won't work with Bin Laden or Akhmadinijead. McCain knows how to handle these mad dogs, not Obama.

Posted by: Guitarman700 Oct 23 2008, 06:18 PM

You seem to be alot more level headed than all the foaming at the mouth crazy conservatives i know. That's good. Im not saying i agree with all your points, but you Score high in my book for not being nasty.This world needs more realists, not more Radical Right and Left wing crazies.

Posted by: fatb0t Oct 23 2008, 06:39 PM

Frank, you need to understand - all news is biased okay? Fox news though they say they're "Fair and Balanced" are not. NBC, CNN all of those stations are biased, your newspaper is biased ALL OF IT IS. You need to read facts, not opinions, don't let someone else tell you the news - find it for yourself. It takes a lot more work but it's a lot more rewarding.
Second off - media is the fourth branch of government in our system. Besides the judicial, executive, and legislative - In America we have the Media branch... People such as yourselves that absorb every thing they hear are directly influenced by the media. If the media collectively wants something to happen, wants some opinion accepted they can easily do it... People hear things and don't question them - they just absorb and internalize. Sometimes it's important to step back from what you hear and ACTUALLY think about it. Things come into focus. Just because Fox news said it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. If you take away the levels of abstraction you can cut a lot of the BS out of news.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 06:40 PM

I appreciate that. I actually do consider myself more of a realist than a conservative. But, because of my beliefs, liberals and left wingers will tout me as a far right conservative. It doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the degree of cluelessness on the far left.

Unfortunately, we don't live in Fantasyland, and have to confront the bad guys from time to time. And there are far more left wing loons than there are far right ones, believe me. I'm proud to call myself a cultural warrior, and I'm not afraid to confront the left wing lunacy.

Posted by: MickeM Oct 23 2008, 06:54 PM

I'm not getting into this discussion but as a general statement I applaud what you just said. Too many people - still in general and not pointing fingers - just take in what they hear, belive it since they said it in the news and then they repeat it to others as the truth.

An interesting personal experience was after 9/11 when a friend of mine, an US captain at the swedish embassy told me I should watch Fox news for the best coverage of the war. I gave it a try and it was just jaw dropping how it, to me as a foreigner, sounded more like propaganda than news reports.
And in all fairness I'll state that CNN is biased the other way.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 07:00 PM

Believe me, I do watch the news through my BS glasses. And my information comes from history books, talking to my military friends who have "been there", and by using common sense.

Keep in mind that just about the only media outlet on tv that is not in the tank for Obama, is Fox News. Most of the news organizations are far left like NBC, and MSNBC. They're so far left, they're practically irrelevant. The New York Times is far left...these organizations do not even practice the ethics of objective journalism anymore. Many of their stories are downright fabrications, or their sources are ridiculous websites like Mediamatters, or the Huffington Post. You can't get any more disingenuous than that.

I know what I see, and I do the research. I urge all of you to do the same regarding this upcoming election. Most of us are middle class, and can't afford to pay any more money to a liberal cause like "redistributing the wealth".

Our borders will continue to be unsecure, our military will be weakened, our taxes will increase...that's what democrats do! We will lose even more face in the world when we are viewed as being so naive as to elect a complete rookie into the whitehouse. Obama might mean well, but he's got it all wrong.

Like I said, in light of the state of affairs as they stand today, we need experience in the whitehouse, not someone who touts "change" as his slogan. Obama could no more change the democratic majority from spending all our money, than I could play guitar like Muris...it's just a fantasy...

Posted by: fatb0t Oct 23 2008, 07:13 PM

Considering the past 8 years, how could we not afford a change? Something needs to change, we certainly cannot keep going this way. If you're a conservative, please explain to me how it is that the US dollar - the once unversial currency - the currency that everyone compared their national currency has lost NEARLY HALF OF ITS VALUE? How can you explain our exponential growth in US debt? How can you explain to me the unaccountability of the Republican administration in terms of misleading the public : telling us that saddam has WMDs, having the public believe Iraq had ties to Al Quieda? I mean, can we REALLY afford to have another 4 years (probably 8) of that?
Am I to say Obama won't do that? I have no idea - but we need something and it's change.

Posted by: Guitarman700 Oct 23 2008, 07:19 PM

This TRULY is the only place on the internet where you can discuss politics for four pages and stay civil!

Posted by: Disturbed21 Oct 23 2008, 07:24 PM

It's amazing how we can . Now the question is how long can we?

Posted by: Ctodd Oct 23 2008, 07:35 PM

FOREVER!

seriously though

Political discussions (in general) between your everyday citizens of earth are good, but we are really not in position to criticize governments based on their past decisions.

I guess what I am saying is that I think it would be more productive if we had more "now" talk rather than more "then" talk

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 07:50 PM

The last eight years, the last eight years. That's the Obama mantra at the moment. Did you consider that the democrats held the majority in both the senate and congress for the last two years? Or that the 700 billion dollar bailout was due in large part to the collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under the watchful eyes of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, two democrats who assured us that all was well?

As I have said, both sides of the aisle are at fault for our problems. It's not about being conservative or liberal, it's about being American. This partisanship bickering is getting the country nowhere.

By the way man, Hussein did have WMDs. He used them on his own people. Regardless, I'm not convinced that we should have gone to Iraq. Hussein would not have been able to use any weapons of mass destruction on us anyway, he didn't/doesn't have the technology. He may have attempted to do something stupid with Israel, but not us. So, no, we should not be there. But, we are now, and we must remain there until there is no power vacuum for Iran to move into. Otherwise, we will have to go back yet again.

Republican, democrat...it doesn't matter to me what somebody is. It's about ideology. Change for changes' sake is not always the right answer. Obamas' idea of change will hurt us, I'm telling you. His idealistic view of "spreading the wealth" will mean taking money from small businesses to give to a large portion of the population that doesn't even pay taxes! That means loss of jobs. You might want to give your money away, but not me.

Besides, Obamas' "change" slogan has been used before. It's going to take somebody far more qualified than Obama to exact change from a democratic majority...are you kidding?

Our system of government is one of the best. Yet, it has faults. When terms of office are open ended, greedy people run for that office. Most of our politicians are bought and paid for at some level, either ideologically or materially. It's our job to weed out the trash, and get rid of it. The only way is to research a particular politicians' history. I have with Obama, and he ain't cutting it.

Posted by: Niko Fran Oct 23 2008, 08:08 PM

The invasion of middle eastern countries dindt start in 2001 or in 2003, europeans and americans have tried to pull their way of life over the heads of people all over the middle east for many, many years. Though I do NOT side with any teorrorist group at all, I can understand why someone can strap a bomb-belt around their waste. When people try to take your culture away from you, you will become more radical to protect it. That is what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq at the moment. War cant be won with bullets, that will just breed more hate. If nothing change, this war will last generations. A child in Afghanistans parents, grand parents and brother had been killed by an american bomb as they thought there were terrorists in the house. I would not be suprised if he grew up to be a "terrorist".
I read in the news that a moske had been built in a german city and that their had been mas-demonstrations against it, they felt that the muslims were "invading and destroying their culture." But thats whats been going on for decades in many countries outside Europa and USA.
Regarding the Iraq war, I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein was a good man - not at all! He comitted genicide and did many wrong things, so thumbs up for the americans for removeing him really. Free speech is very important, its impossible to to build a state that can evolve without it, you need both "right wing radicals" and "left wing lunatics"...

Anyway, I'm not american so some people might say that this is not of my buisness, but I really hope that Obama wins! Fox News is a joke, the debates are just five conservatives standing around a table all saying how bad that Obama is, that he has "questionable relationships with terrorists" and so on.
Lastly, I think Obama would be a much better president than McCain. Obama have been traveling the world as a child and do not fear it as Palin do. He understands cultures which McCain and Palin would rather see bombed.

And by the way, someone said something about Palin fighting corruption... They should look at the facts, woulnd't call her the one to fight that!

Posted by: fatb0t Oct 23 2008, 08:15 PM

......and with that said - back to experimenting with pedal tones in E minor =)

Posted by: FrankW Oct 23 2008, 08:21 PM

I'm tired of typing, guys. I enjoyed the discussion. I learned as much as I think I know. There's alot of thoughtful people here, and I appreciate it. I changed my mind anyway, I'm voting for Eric Johnson for president. Muris, if you're running for some type of office, I'll vote for you too. It's guitar time for me again...

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 23 2008, 11:17 PM

Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama . He is one person that will actually try and be peaceful without having Rambo in office. Who'd you choose to run a country. Obama or Rambo (McCain). I don't think Obama is even that great but compared to Rambo is great. What is funniest is that in a country that is supposed to be so great and about freedom of speech they have so many different parties and nobody gets a voice apart from major 2.

Posted by: JVM Oct 24 2008, 12:26 AM

Just some thoughts I'd like to throw out..

Obama has more experience than Abe Lincoln did when he was elected president, off the top of my head.

Our current crises is not "the democrat's fault". Things do not happen so quickly as to have a change in congress massively affect our world economic status in a couple of very short years. It was many years in the making. By this logic, the entirety of the national deficit is directly due to G.W.'s incompetence (when that is really not the case, but I'm not sayin' he's a a great president ), Bill Clinton and his democrats are directly responsible for our massive economic growth in the 90's, and aliens have impregnated our apple pie (okay, I pulled that one out of my you know where). Etc.

There is more to consider than just the president and congress. For example, four of our current Supreme Court justices have been appointed by the Bush empire, not to mention the other conservatives we have on the bench. Also, as evidenced by our multicultural community at GMC, the US might benefit from having some friends, to say the least.

I'm a moderate myself, registered independent, by the way.

Posted by: Ajmurrell Oct 24 2008, 01:02 AM

I don't really want to get involved in this, because I'll simply admit - I don't know nearly enough about any of this to form a non-biased, educated and relevant opinion. I do however think that people should also think carefully about what they say, before they say it. In relation to the above reasons for why I don't. If that makes sense

But then again, its GOOD that people respond with PASSION and feel strongly about these things. Even if its not agreeable with everyone.

I guess its all a matter of balance between the two.


Here's a question: Does anybody else end up having an arguement with themselves when talking about these kind of things? I start to think one thing - then immediately come up with a contradiction. Then think of something new and the pattern repeats.

Maybe I should quit the nicotine and caffine!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 24 2008, 01:23 AM

Don't be daft

I'm only messing. I don't smoke or drink coffee.

I just read a story on yahoo that said Palin and spent all the Republican party fund on new clothes. Please tell me it is true. That is laughable. You can always trust the news

Posted by: Ajmurrell Oct 24 2008, 02:49 AM

The BBC reports that she's spent $150,000 on her "makeover" since being elected as a VP candidate.

I'd point out that they give no indication to how much other candidates have spent on similar things, so it's sort of statistical garbage in reality.

To me and you, thats a whole lot of money! Which is pricisely why its a media covered story. In the scheme of expendiature for presidential candidates are concerned, I've no idea if thats a large sum or not.

Also to add, the McCain campaign's finance has raised just under $316 million while Obama's campaign has faised over $620 million.

(All sources from the BBC)

Not trying to make any point, just trying to show a bigger picture

Posted by: FrankW Oct 24 2008, 03:54 AM

What was conveniently left out is that the clothes do not belong to Sarah Palin. She gets to use them for three days, and then they are given to charity.

What's with the poisonous attitudes toward this woman anyway? If everybody got their facts straight, she would be viewed in a better light. Some of you don't know what you're talking about. It looks like alot of your information comes from far left websites that distort the truth.

The US is the most powerful nation on the planet because we are a democratic, capitalistic society that promotes competition which brings about excellence, because we are rewarded for it. To turn into a "spread the wealth" socialistic state would be to turn the US into another mediocre, irrelevant country. Sorry guys, that ain't gonna happen.

Posted by: mjsteps Oct 24 2008, 10:14 AM

To me it us simple. Look at history and look where the USA is going? To me a two party system has to go. The electoral college has to go. I will say it again, the framers of our constition believed in a government for the people and by the people. The revolutionary war was in some real sense fought over an increase of about 3% tax on tea, sugar and molasses. We talk about change look at how far we have come?

We live in a totaly different world whereby we are all connected and affected when anything happens across the globe. Thus the states can not afford to "do business" as usual.

The power of our goverment does not rest in the hands of one man. We have a CONGRESS and A senate and this is suppose to bring a balance of power to the system. This is what will change after this election. The implications are mind boggling.

As for me sit back, grab some popcorn and watch the show. And as always look for humor.

Posted by: botoxfox Oct 24 2008, 05:41 PM

[attachment=10730:Reagan_d...ster_PNG.png]

Posted by: fatb0t Oct 24 2008, 08:23 PM

What a hilarious map...

Anyways, America was founded on the two party system for a reason. It creates tension! It purposely puts people at odds with each other so no one can really seize power. Lately things seemed to have been corrupted and that's where I take issue.