For Those Outside The U.s. :) |
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Dec 17 2014, 08:10 PM
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we also have to be careful about sensationalizing these shooting sprees ( which I condemn fervently). This is such a hot topic for those wanting to gain more government control. We think , and have so many examples of people getting brutally shoot in movies,that immediate we envision it this way. as gruesome as it is , if you really want to do something about peoples untimely demise . Lets look at the big Life takers.
Tex-ting and phoning while driving responsible for 3092 deaths last year http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dr.../1#.VJHMnHvm7aQ Illegal aliens kill 12 Americans everyday http://www.wnd.com/2006/11/39031/ The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests – some eight arrests per illegal alien; Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses – some 13 offenses per illegal alien; 36 percent had been arrested at least five times before. Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2006/11/39031/#81G5EBU9RE6s8yfO.99 or just your standard car accidents in the US kill 92 people a day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor...in_U.S._by_year are these deaths any less gruesome , leave behind any less pain . I am gonna cry Bullshit , you moan and groan about a hand full of deaths from guns when in reality ,like fkalich says "lets not hand control over for a minimal amount of damage". ( before you think I am some freak, I have many kids, would not want to loose any , in any way. and know how much those are hurting for I have lost a daughter at birth) If you want to save lives why don't we have government monitors to shut your engine off if it detects a cell phone.Build a freakin fence we can debate all day about making illegals legal , but if they had not been allowed to cross the border( and I blame both sides of congress)we would have a lot less killings , rapes and other crimes that take our tax payer dollars to pay for some one that should have not been allowed to come in People like to sensationalize this issue and say" isn't saving one child worth it", Do they really mean it, at the same time are they willing to loss their right to have a cell phone, drive a car , I mean, don't ever cry foul about the hand full of deaths from gunfire unless you have proportionately cried foul about the selfish things we do that take thousands and thousands of lives. I feel I have puked up enough for now , peace , i"m out One last thought , Normal people kill way more than crazy people do This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Dec 17 2014, 08:21 PM |
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Dec 17 2014, 08:24 PM
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Here are some relevant graphs and charts comparing crime rates with other countries, many, if not most, or all of which have much stricter gun control than the US, complete with sources.
[attachment=40201:Guns_in_...on_rates.jpg] [attachment=40202:Guns_in_...s_States.jpg] [attachment=40203:Guns_in_...omicides.jpg] [attachment=40204:Guns_in_...rendline.jpg] [attachment=40205:Guns_in_...nd_Wales.jpg] http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths...ther-countries/ This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 17 2014, 08:43 PM |
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Dec 17 2014, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 17 2014, 02:10 PM)  Illegal aliens kill 12 Americans everyday http://www.wnd.com/2006/11/39031/ I would be a bit skeptical about using extreme ideological sources, in this case very extreme right wing. I have nothing against Hispanics who have come in, for the most part hard working people with strong family values. And they at present have a higher birth rate than the rest of the population. Countries in Western and Northern Europe, China, etc. with low birth rates are going to be in a world of hurt at a point in the future. This post has been edited by fkalich: Dec 17 2014, 09:15 PM |
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Dec 17 2014, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 17 2014, 08:44 PM) I would be a bit skeptical about using extreme ideological sources, in this case very extreme right wing. I though I found and used a fair example , there were some that said 25, even if it was on the right , was it wrongl Quote: “Wasted” Lives: 4,380 Americans Murdered by Illegal Aliens Each Year! February 16, 2007 Vox Populi By John Lillpop While Senator Barack Obama called the loss of 3,100 Americans in the war on terror “wasted lives,” the senator, all of his Democrat colleagues, RINOs, and President Bush choose to ignore a far more outrageous statistic. As documented in a report by Joseph Farah dated November 28, 2006 and titled “Illegal Aliens Murder 12 Americans Daily,” illegal aliens murder an average of 4,380 Americans each year. And that does not include the 4,750 Americans killed by drunken illegal aliens every year! That, by the way, equals 23,725 “wasted lives,” since 9/11. Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/illegal-imm...l#ixzz3MBiAteLZ and your okay with them coming , in that earlier report , 36 percent on them were arrested five times, and your okay with that This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Dec 17 2014, 09:20 PM |
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Dec 18 2014, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 17 2014, 06:31 PM) These are really important points here. They go to show the real issue at stake in our country which is a systemic, cultural, violent impulse. Other countries have guns, lotsa guns. But it's we here who have the crazy high soldier suicide rate, school shooting rate, rampage rate, etc. Many of these issues stem from deeeeeeep cultural values and policy as a reflection off those. Thanks it does expand on it without talking only about gun crime or massacres. I regard gun crime and massacres as two separate things due to noteworthy distinction in their demographics. Gun crime is often due to social demise, which consists of a number of things such as poverty, poor economics, social inequality. Shooting massacres are often done by middle class folk too, and those not so affected by the same things. You wont see a senior-level undergraduate rob a liqueur store at gun-point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho Cultural values you speak of might apply to both groups but I think there is some distinction in the above. I believe distinction can be explained in allusion was I was trying to make in my last post where said; “The Finnish mental health system is decentralized and medication is very low on their list of priorities”. The US army is the most medicated in the world (just look it up). -------------------- Founder of new startup social network site that brings the good aspects of MySpace, Twitter and FaceBook together.
MyTwitFace. |
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Dec 18 2014, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 17 2014, 05:06 PM) From the post, it seems there are some of my countrymen here who simply oppose immigrants but who would not actually admit to it.  As for myself, I still believe in what is permanently written in the statue of liberty."Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" As everyone knows, we are a nation of immigrants. I support everyone who wants to come here and start a new life for themselves. These folks are portrayed as evil in some parts of our media. On the whole, they are just poor people trying to do better for their children. Wow Todd. Do you really think that is a fair characterization? I think that most people have no problem with good people coming to this country in search of a better life, but to paint those that would would seek to keep out the significant criminal element that comes along with them as "anti immigrant" is a bit low don't you think? From reading your post it appears that you make no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. And I also have to wonder if you interpret the words on the Statue of Liberty to include violent and murderous gang members such as MS-13 among others who are involved in drug and human trafficking, or sex offenders and other violent criminals who have been deported numerous times and just keep coming back. Is it your view that we should just have open borders? The WND article that Cursin has linked to actually echoes to some extent what has been written about in lots of different media as well as FBI reports and reports done by the Dept of Justice's National Gang Intelligence Center. Even if the numbers in the WND article are inflated or the studies done to find those numbers are flawed in some ways, it still doesn't take away from the fact that there is a very significant problem with the criminal element slipping into this country illegally. So to say that ("On the whole), they are just poor people trying to do better for their children." Is just whistling through the graveyard or burying your head in the sand. It is certain that this is true for many, but to a high degree it is also untrue. Even the study appearing the most scrupulous concerning the numbers of crimes committed by illegals I found still concludes that there are legitimate reasons to address the issue. They basically did a study of other studies concerning immigration and crime. "In conclusion, we find that it would be a mistake to assume that immigrants as a group are more prone to crime than other groups, or that they should be viewed with more suspicion than others. Even though immigrant incarceration rates are high in some populations, there is no clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others. Nevertheless, it also would be a mistake to conclude that immigrant crime is insignificant or that offenders’ immigration status is irrelevant in local policing. The newer information available as a result of better screening of the incarcerated population suggests that, in many parts of the country, immigrants are responsible for a significant share of crime. This indicates that there are legitimate public safety reasons for local law enforcement agencies to determine the immigration status of offenders and to work with federal immigration authorities." http://cis.org/ImmigrantCrime As far as my personal experience. I have some neighbors (Some of the nicest and most respectful people I have met) that I know well and do some work for that emigrated to this country from Guatemala, and they will be the first to tell you that the immigration policies of late are completely unfair to those who have come here and waited in line to come here legally and that those policies are also very dangerous because of the criminal element that has been coming in and largely ignored. Basically, these policies are bringing in to this country what my neighbors have tried to escape from. Maybe you will find these articles and sources more reliable than WND, http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2008/january/ms13_011408/ http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation...ID=8kjcj004vx8j http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-fight-against-ms-13/2/ http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/01/...most-u-s-crime/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13 http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publicat...ng%20Trends.pdf This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 18 2014, 08:49 PM |
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Dec 19 2014, 01:48 AM
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Always fun to have you in the mix CRSN! Keeps things fresh and confrontational which is always a blast
 To balance things out. Let's look at something like this. IT's a link to a sort of FACT CHECK on the "immigrants and crime!" sort of thing. TO be sure, there are some immigrants who are criminal, legal and illegal. However, here are wads of facts and numbers that show how less likely immigrants (legal or illegal) are to be incarcerated relative to native born folks. Certain media outlets / personalities in my country tend to demonize immigrants on the whole when as a point of simple fact, it's our nations immigrant population that provides us with a labor force willing to jobs that most native born folks are just not willing to do like picking fruit for 10 bucks a day. Anyhoo, here is the link. (i'm guessing this will be declared propoganda? )http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-fact...nts-and-crime-0 Just one cherry pick. Research in New Jersey and California Found Immigrants Less Likely to be in Prison An analysis of data from the New Jersey Department of Corrections and U.S. Census Bureau by New Jersey’s Star-Ledger found that “U.S. citizens are twice as likely to land in New Jersey’s prisons as legal and illegal immigrants.” According to the Star-Ledger’s analysis, released in April 2008, “non-U.S. citizens make up 10 percent of the state’s overall population, but just 5 percent of the 22,623 inmates in prison as of July 2007.” [quote name='AK Rich' date='Dec 18 2014, 01:48 PM' post='702657'] Wow Todd. Do you really think that is a fair characterization? I think that most people have no problem with good people coming to this country in search of a better life, but to paint those that would would seek to keep out the significant criminal element that comes al |
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Dec 19 2014, 04:04 AM
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[quote name='Todd Simpson' date='Dec 18 2014, 04:48 PM' post='702701']
To balance things out. Let's look at something like this. IT's a link to a sort of FACT CHECK on the "immigrants and crime!" sort of thing. TO be sure, there are some immigrants who are criminal, legal and illegal. However, here are wads of facts and numbers that show how less likely immigrants (legal or illegal) are to be incarcerated relative to native born folks. Anyhoo, here is the link. (i'm guessing this will be declared propoganda? )http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-fact...nts-and-crime-0 Just one cherry pick. Research in New Jersey and California Found Immigrants Less Likely to be in Prison An analysis of data from the New Jersey Department of Corrections and U.S. Census Bureau by New Jersey’s Star-Ledger found that “U.S. citizens are twice as likely to land in New Jersey’s prisons as legal and illegal immigrants.” According to the Star-Ledger’s analysis, released in April 2008, “non-U.S. citizens make up 10 percent of the state’s overall population, but just 5 percent of the 22,623 inmates in prison as of July 2007.” Well. I don't know if it is propaganda or not but there are at least a couple of issues. The study I linked to in my last post from the Center of Immigration Studies, which as I said before is a study of many studies that have been done in the past including ones sponsored by the IPC which you link us to. The publication of the CIS finds flaws in the studies made on both sides of the issue. I added the final paragraph of their conclusion in my previous post. Concerning the IPC's findings that you linked us to, the CIS publication has this to say about it. "Recent reports by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) and Immigration Policy Center (IPC) showing low rates of immigrant incarceration highlight the data problems in many studies. The 2000 Census data they used are not reliable." "An analysis of the data used in the PPIC and IPC studies by the National Research Council found that 53 percent of the time the Census Bureaus had to make an educated guess whether a prisoner was an immigrant. The studies are essentially measuring these guesses, not actual immigrant incarceration." "The poor quality of data used in the PPIC and IPC studies is illustrated by wild and implausible swings. It shows a 28 percent decline in incarcerated immigrants 1990 to 2000 — yet the overall immigrant population grew 59 percent. Newer Census data from 2007 show a 146 percent increase in immigrant incarceration 2000 to 2007 — yet, the overall immigrant population grew only 22 percent. And further into the publication, this. "Recent Studies Share a Major Flaw." "Two recent and widely cited studies have tried to shed light on the question of immigrant criminality by analyzing public-use data from the 2000 census on persons in institutions. One study, by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC), is “Crime, Corrections, and California: What Does Immigration Have to Do with It”?9 The other study is “The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation: Incarceration Rates among Native and Foreign-Born Men”10 and was sponsored by the Immigration Policy Center (IPC), a think tank created by the American Immigration Lawyers Association. Both studies were conducted by well-known researchers in the field. The general idea behind both studies is reasonable. While the public-use census files used in these studies do not distinguish between correctional institutions and persons committed to other facilities like nursing homes, by confining their analysis to younger men, the authors of both studies hoped to get a good idea of the immigrant incarceration rate. Both studies conclude that immigrants are much less likely to commit crimes than are natives. However, both studies share a fundamental problem: The data they use are not reliable, making meaningful analysis impossible." After that section of the publication it goes into the problems in great detail with the census information that was used in the IPC sponsored study. The other issue is. Is there a possible conflict of interest with the IPC being created by the American Immigration Lawyers Association? I don't know, But the CIS appears to be "an independent, non-partisan, non-profit, research organization." While the IPC "is the research and policy arm of the American Immigration Council." http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/about-imm...n-policy-center http://cis.org/About What I can tell you from looking at both of these groups findings is that the CIS publication appears to be far more in depth, as well as balanced since it finds flaws from studies that support either side of the discussion. So where does that leave us? Here again is the link to the Center of Immigration Studies publication of Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue. http://cis.org/ImmigrantCrime This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 19 2014, 04:07 AM |
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