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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ 24th Fret Sustain

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 6 2019, 10:38 PM

Hello folks,

How do people like Mr Vai get sustain and vibrato on the 24th fret, I'm trying for the latest Metallica collab but the notes just die very quickly.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 7 2019, 02:26 AM

Practice!!!! You walked right in to that one.

Also, add a bit more gain, back the noise gate off a bit, if you are using a noise gate. Use your clean boost pedal in the helix (tube screamer) to push the amp head sim a bit harder. if the volume is maxed on the screamer, turn up the gain a pinch til it starts giving a bit more. Also, the more left hand wag you use, the longer the note will last.
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 6 2019, 05:38 PM)

Hello folks,

How do people like Mr Vai get sustain and vibrato on the 24th fret, I'm trying for the latest Metallica collab but the notes just die very quickly.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 7 2019, 10:09 AM

Thanks Todd,

I know practise but sometimes you need tech tips. It's like throwing darts, one can just buy a set and a board and practise for years not improving, a few tips on stance, hold and follow through from a master and immediately their average score doubles

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Mertay Apr 7 2019, 12:06 PM

If you're comfortable with pinch harmonics, try g string 21.th fret. The pinch harmonic spot should be where a middle singlecoil should be.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 7 2019, 03:57 PM

Thanks Mertay,

I'm trying to hit a note on the high E 24th fret, then do a sliding pentatonic run back down to the 12th.the frets above the 21st are very tight. I'm wondering if I should put my finger on the 22rd fret store and roll onto the string towards the 24th? Not home at the moment so can't try.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Sinclair Apr 7 2019, 07:26 PM

http://www.fernandesguitars.com/sustainer/artists-sustainer.html

Here is his ”secret”.

I have a Fender Stratocaster O’brien which has the same sustainer device.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 8 2019, 04:54 AM

Just for you Phil, here is a bit of Midnight Video to show some tips/tricks. Notice the waggy vibrato and how it creates it's own sustain. If I don't use wide/waggy vibrato the notes will die off much quicker. It's a very yngwie style vibrato. Also a pinch of gain and delay never hurts I hope this helps!!

Using my hotone AMPERO on this one. Also shot in near total darkness on my little 4k action cam connected via usb recording directly to hard drive. Sure kills any web cam I've ever tried. Never seen low light performance like this on a logitech.

I just couldn't help myself I totally get what you are saying. Unless you want to use an Ebow or something, the big trick is really to use the left hand for intensifying your vibrato. This will create it's own sustain if that makes any sense. I'll try to record you an example.
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 7 2019, 05:09 AM)

Thanks Todd,

I know practise

but sometimes you need tech tips. It's like throwing darts, one can just buy a set and a board and practise for years not improving, a few tips on stance, hold and follow through from a master and immediately their average score doubles

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 8 2019, 07:54 AM

Thanks Todd,

Thinking about it, I don't think it was sustain that I mean, it was finger placement to just get the note to ring out without instant decay.

Thanks for taking the time to do that video. I do find vibrato hard on the high E on any fret so that needs work.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: AK Rich Apr 8 2019, 06:50 PM

Good calluses on the fingertips help fretting down there for sure.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 8 2019, 07:17 PM

Yeah I guess so, thank Rich

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 9 2019, 02:08 AM

If you place in between the frets, and use wide vibrato it should sustain just like in the video. Hopefully!

Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 8 2019, 02:54 AM)

Very true

Having calluses on your fingers really does help on the high frets. Without thee, your fingers can be a pinch soft and result in squishy notes instead of solid ones.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 8 2019, 02:17 PM)

Yeah I guess so, thank Rich

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 10 2019, 02:21 AM

Phil mentioned also that it's easy to put too much pressure on notes up high and make them go sharp. Well said!! if you "over pressure" the notes, they go sharp. If yo "underpressure" the notes, they die. So you gotta use your ear to make sure they are not going sharp, and use your ear to make sure they are not going dead. It's tricky to play the upper decks which is why no everyone spends time up that high, and why really good players (vai/yngwie) are more than happy to spend wads of time in that area to display their mastery of the instrument, as well as express themselves in a higher range.

Doing thumbless work up that high is difficult to say the least. Especially if one is having trouble fretting notes even with the thumb. It does prevent over pressure. Playing the upper decks takes work to be sure. It's worth doing though as it's part of the guitar that has the highest notes and without it, one is limited.

Posted by: jstcrsn Apr 10 2019, 10:47 PM

have you tried getting the note to ring without picking and just using vibrato

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 11 2019, 06:04 AM

I was suggesting adding some vibrato to keep the string ringing as well Also sometimes ones noise gate clamps too soon.
PHIL SHOOT A QUICK VID!! Show us what is happening.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 10 2019, 05:47 PM)

have you tried getting the note to ring without picking and just using vibrato

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 11 2019, 01:21 PM

Don't press on the string too hard Phil, your Fingertip may be getting squashed and choking the note!!

Posted by: Adam M Apr 11 2019, 04:35 PM

In my case it's probably a matter of practice but I noticed some overall improvement when I switched from pressing the string anywhere to pressing it right at the fret in question. (I'm speaking of sustain in general, not just the highest frets)

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 11 2019, 05:39 PM

Thanks for all the tips folks. I'll try to post a video but it is already improving

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 12 2019, 10:23 AM

I'm sure we can give better feedback with even a short vid. I'm curious to see what's going on?

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 11 2019, 12:39 PM)

Thanks for all the tips folks. I'll try to post a video but it is already improving

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 13 2019, 09:20 PM

https://youtu.be/zOw4sJcA1Mo

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 14 2019, 03:10 AM

Ahh.
At about 24 seconds in, it sounds to me like the note is "fretting out". E.G. the fret closer to the pickup is a pinch taller than the one closer to your finger. Thus the sustain is killed. It could be a lot of things, but from watching that vid, it sure looks like it's fretting out to me. The cure for that is typically to have a good setup from a good guitar tech. If it's already been setup, it may need to have the frets leveled. it should ring pretty good up there, as it does in my short demo. You've got plenty of gain, plenty of delay and the gate sounds ok too.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 13 2019, 04:20 PM)

https://youtu.be/zOw4sJcA1Mo

Posted by: jstcrsn Apr 14 2019, 04:40 AM

sorry if this has been asked , what kind of pick ups

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 14 2019, 09:33 AM

Cheers Todd,

It has had a good set up and frets checked a while back. I'll get it rechecked.

Jstcrsn:

Stock Ibby. Its an RG1570.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 14 2019, 08:11 PM

A better video, I still think it's technique or lack of it I can get it to ring out more, it's just in the heat of recording I go to pieces

I realised after doing this one that the guitar volume wasn't up fully.

https://youtu.be/rLRSZIkeiTg

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 15 2019, 06:46 AM

The one finger technique is not your best bet that far up. I'd say use at least two fingers to be able to get adequate pressure that you can still control. Too much and it's sharp, to little and you get no sustain. Vibrato is key here. I notice you are not doing much vibrato. Without vibrato to keep the string ringing, notes will die out quicker, especially with the volume down I'm glad it's not our frets! In the last vid it sounded like it was fretting out. Is this the same on all your guitars?
check out my vid here about 27 seconds in I hit fret 19 and hang on it for a bit. It's an old Ibby RG7620. Your ibby should have at least as much sustain as this guy has. I put a high note in there just for you and did a run down to the low string past the 12th fret to show sustain on a lower string as well. 7 string scales are fun!

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 14 2019, 03:11 PM)

A better video, I still think it's technique or lack of it

I can get it to ring out more, it's just in the heat of recording I go to pieces

I realised after doing this one that the guitar volume wasn't up fully.

https://youtu.be/rLRSZIkeiTg

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 15 2019, 07:25 AM

Thanks Todd,

I was deliberately not doing any vibrato just to show the pure guitar voice. I wanted to show why I didn't think it was a fret issue and was more about technique, or lack of it.

I haven't checked any other guitars, This is my only 24 fret apart from my PRS SE 7 String which Doesn't get much use. I rarely go that far up on my other guitars because of my lack of understanding of the fretboard, it's as though, if there aren't 24 frets I'm thinking I haven't got enough notes up there

Cheers.

Phil

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 16 2019, 07:16 AM

Just to make sure it's not an issue with that guitar, try the high frets on your other guitar. Doesn't have to be 24. Just go high and do the same thing to see if you get the same result. Otherwise we don't have a "control" for our little test.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 15 2019, 02:25 AM)

Cheers.

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 16 2019, 07:24 AM

Will do when I get home buddy, but the notes one that last video were ringing out better.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 17 2019, 02:39 AM

You are probably getting better at it each time you make a vid and each time you practice. Which is a good thing Playing the upper decks takes wads of repetition. It's way different than playing the lower decks. Finger pressure is different, vibrato is a bit different, etc.

I'm just curious to see how it goes for you on the other axe. I"m glad you are getting better as you go on this. Add more bits in to your soloing as you go, it will get much better over time.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 16 2019, 02:24 AM)

Will do when I get home buddy, but the notes one that last video were ringing out better.

Cheers

Phil