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Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 16 2017, 09:11 PM

...here is another one we could discuss!

And of course, this also gives me the honor of presenting my new track.

Theme-wise, it combines a lot of things I have gone through as a guitarist and human being. It’s my first serious song/video attempt since ~2012.

It’s called “Yeminemi” - meaning Oath in Turkish.

I hope the video will get some views as I think it contains an important message for our planet - and the earthlings on it.

Posted by: Phil66 Feb 16 2017, 09:27 PM

Powerful riffing Kris, I like it

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 16 2017, 09:36 PM

Thanks Phil, I'm really glad you like it. This is the first thing I have done in a long time which I am actually proud of.

Posted by: bleez Feb 16 2017, 11:20 PM

Hells yes very cool track indeed, sir.
fantastic tonage as well!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 17 2017, 02:00 AM

Using war as a metaphor for animal cruelty is a very clever stroke indeed. The video starts off being a traditional, Metal type vid, then it reveals itself to have much deeper meanings than just images and sounds of aggression.

I think the entire thing works on multiple levels and is a very effective "Pro-Vegan" argument. I've not seen very many pro vegan arguments that have swayed me. This one had me questioning whether I should eat steak again. When you consider that animals feel pain, and even experience loneliness and isolation (especially pigs which are as smart as dogs in general) it starts making meat less attractive. This from a life long carnivore.

I think you might approach PETA or a similar organization to share the vid with a wider audience. Have you considered that?

Congrats on a great bit of work!

Todd

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 17 2017, 08:54 AM

Thanks so much mate.

Here is what i used if you want to check it out:
Rhythm: "Sinmix Krank57PR20" from RE
Lead: "Mars JMP 2 1" from M Britt's Rack Pack



Thanks a million for the fantastic words Todd!

And yes I couldn't agree more. From a moral perspective there is no way to defend the cruelty of modern factory farming. And nowadays there is no way to defend it from any other perspective, since all serious research show animal products are the major cause of our chronic diseases and global warming.

Thanks for the suggestion about PETA, I might actually try to contact them.

Posted by: bleez Feb 17 2017, 09:32 AM

thanks Kris. Im totally getting that rack pack
Never heard of sinMix before, just had a look now his stuff sounds fantastic, def getting a few of his

Posted by: Mertay Feb 17 2017, 10:00 AM

+1

On the production side, this is a very good example for GMC'ers to approach "efficiency".

By that what I mean is although Kris used repetitive/similar musical material throughout the song, they still evolved for the listener and never stays static. This isn't only about the video but when/what he added musically between them. Its also a great example for using structure too.

Either one agrees or disagrees his message, still must admit the delivery is very strong and he did what he intended to do quite successful

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 17 2017, 10:36 AM

Sinmix is my def my favorite for heavy rhythm guitar. I am not sure he has much competition at this point. Do check them out, many of my recordings use his free profiles. (I also have two of his paid packs)



That's such a cool comment Mertay, thanks!! Please let me know if there is anything you think I should elaborate on (ie production / songwriting etc)

Btw right now it seems they have censored my video on the kemper forum which is a tad amazing - I am waiting for an explanation. So far they have only told me it's because of "crowd of soldiers performing a Hitler salute"

Posted by: Mertay Feb 17 2017, 11:43 AM

They what!!??

I bet whoever that moderator is only watched the first half of the song and probably thought you're praising the nazi happening in a music related forum, with such ignorance is shameful for them. What the hell do they think playing guitar is all about? only good tone?

Anyway...I guess its best for GMC'ers to come with the questions but for the members who are working on their own composition/creation process I'd invite them ask about the process steps/timeline. Like from where it started (video or music) and how it developed (entire or specific parts)...

We don't get to see such "one man-whole production" too often inside GMC, I see it as a nice opportunity for those who are interested.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 17 2017, 12:39 PM

Yeah this is really crazy. I am even banned now after having asked them to clarify their moderation policies...!
https://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/33277-Dubious-moderation-policies-here/

First he told me this:
https://www.screencast.com/t/Oj2xHmYBeRqy

Then changed it to this:
https://screencast.com/t/fLh55zCibd

When I login I get to see this:
https://screencast.com/t/aJWrnLdT

I feel like I was executed without any questions...!

Posted by: Mertay Feb 17 2017, 12:57 PM

Wow...

I'd say send an e-mail but write extremely obivous. Like; the discust/irritation was intentionally artistically built (the nazi scenes) so it can be felt for the animal part of the video...as so the video is about protest not praising.

Who knows maybe as a plus you'll teach some level of art to that moderator since he suffers so badly...

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Feb 17 2017, 02:40 PM

As I've said at Facebook, this is fantastic. The overall vid and song are awesome. I've just found that this vid has been banned in some forums, and it's really sad to know it. We are living some dark times nowadays (again).

Posted by: PosterBoy Feb 17 2017, 02:50 PM

I think the moderator maybe a little heavy handed but making sure there is no trouble or offense caused which will reflect badly on the Kemper brand as this is part of their business.

If he can misunderstand your intent it does mean that others might as well.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 17 2017, 03:07 PM

Ok. But what do you guys think is most important:

*avoiding missunderstandings, or....

*avoiding another holocaust?

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 17 2017, 03:59 PM

You have to realize something about Germany and about Kemper. Kermper is, after all, a German company. It's still illegal to perform the hitler salute on the street. It took them 80 years to republish mein kampf for academic use. They have VERY strict laws concerning any imagery that might be considered "nazi" in any way. I had to get schooled in all this by my German friends. I didn't know it was as bad as all that, but it is. It remains a very sensitive topic that is banned by and large.

If you would have mentioned putting it in the kemper forum, I'd have tried to get you to reconsider or re-edit the video cutting out all the WWII German Army stuff. They just don't get anywhere near that stuff if they can help it.

I Hope you can explain it to G String and get back on the forum or you may need to make another entire account.

Posted by: Mertay Feb 17 2017, 04:42 PM

Censorship is one of the very few things that ignites me (as its also a problem where I live) but thankfully I've learned to control it to some extent

On the other hand editing that video is against so many things, aside what personally involves Kris its against any freedom+human rights that was established after that war. See'ing an internet forum as a soil of a country isn't understandable either.

Well...if they can't deal with such image and music then its not Kris's fault.

@Kris I hope you'll take this experience as a good inspiration for your next project

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 17 2017, 09:28 PM

I can understand the Hitler salute which is sort illegal here in Sweden as well (if combined with other actions). However I must say I am surprised if historic video footage is forbidden - which is what I used.

So far I have only done some quick googling and what I can find is "Germany forbids anything that is seen as glorifying Hitler’s regime". In my video I am displaying some of Hitlers horrific crimes - I don't understand how this possibly could be seen as glorifying unless one were to just watch the first 30 seconds and then stop.

I can live with the ban - I am just a bit sad about my original message getting lost..



Yes this kind of stuff tends to give birth to more creative energy - so it's all good in the long run.



Thanks Gab! I am really proud over this one as well



Yes I'd be very honored to answer any such questions!

One thing that I have done wrong in the past is to try to fix bad sounds in the mix - this time around I spent some extra time checking that the guitar + bass + drums would work ok with each before laying the song foundation. However in retrospect I would have wanted bass+guitar to be a little tighter sonically. But I'll try to improve that for coming recordings.



Yes good point - the more sections you add, the more "progressive" it sounds. I like song that have a simple, almost pop- kinda structure. The track only has three different riffs.

Posted by: Fran Feb 17 2017, 10:45 PM

Wow. Just listened to it 4 times in a row. The mix is awesome, PoWeRFuLL riffing, and somehow the solos cut through like a knife. Among your best Kris

On the other hand it's the first time I feel like crap for eating beef

Edit: Just read the whole thread and the ban thing. Some people just don't like to think and on top of that they wear self-righteousness like an armor. It's obvious you didn't mean to offend anyone, yet they see WW2 images and auto-ban. Sad.

Reminds me of this quote:
“Nothing limits intelligence more than ignorance; nothing fosters ignorance more than one's own opinions; nothing strengthens opinions more than refusing to look at reality.”
― Sheri S. Tepper, The Visitor

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 17 2017, 11:15 PM

I love the way it's heavy, but still grooves. How did you process the vocals? Posting that on a German website took some serious balls .

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 17 2017, 11:44 PM

Thanks!! yes perhaps have I too much balls

The vocals have a bit of compression and limiting, and lots of low cut due to my mic. The Gregorian sound comes from having four voices doing the same thing with 2 huge reverbs and some delays. This is the time to look at the "cathedral" reverb presets etc. I also use pitch correction when needed.



Wow thanks so much Fran, having someone watch my video 4 times in a row is like a dream come true. Amazing!

Come to think of - there might actually be carnism behind the ban. Since I have never published animal-rights stuff before I don't have any personal experience from it. But I have heard from others it's quite a phenomenon - and it is not using any logic whatsoever.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 17 2017, 11:59 PM

I did enjoy this , well , time to go make dinner for my family . Friday is Hamburger and Movie night

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 18 2017, 12:16 AM

Thanks for digging

Posted by: klasaine Feb 18 2017, 12:24 AM

Good video, cool tune.

I'm surprised at an outright 'ban'. If they didn't think it appropriate I can see them ditching the post or the thread but not banning you.
Cest la vie.
Look at it as a badger of honor. You really pissed some people off. Not that easy to do. Excellent work on all fronts!

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 18 2017, 01:17 AM

While I can't say that I agree with the message and comparisons made in the video, I thought the writing, guitar work and the whole production was really good and without a doubt the best I have seen from you, Kris. I especially liked the little harmonic run at the end of the intro. Very cool.

Sorry to hear about the censorship, it isn't right. And there seems to be a good bit of that going around these days unfortunately.

All of that aside, I am sure you must know that comparing the murder of 6 million Jewish and other* people to the slaughter of livestock to produce food is going to be considered bad form by many. Choosing this particular comparison to express this view may actually have the opposite effect that you may have desired.

+1 on the balls man, your balls have their own gravity!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 18 2017, 05:29 AM

I think it's wrong what they did, but I've have still warned you against posting it there. Anywhere but there. They are just too sensitive in that country to anything, images, flags, anything, even remotely related to that part of their past. We have plenty of bits in our country that we are not proud of, but we don't have laws on the books that stop folks from talking about it all. The rebel battle flag only came down from the Georgia State Capital building a few years ago, as an example.

Still, I'm sorry to see them censor your vid and then ban you from the forum. Can you just make a new account?

Posted by: bleez Feb 18 2017, 04:09 PM

I need to grab a copy of this for my phone. Its going on my 'stuff I listen to at work that gets me through the day' playlist
Ridiculous to ban you from the kemper forum, as Ken mentioned if they didnt like the vid then fine but a ban is crazy. Im glad GMC isnt moderated in that way.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 18 2017, 04:30 PM

hehe - right I must have truly pissed them off. Given how innovative they are on the amp side I guess I just had higher expectations. But in hindsight I realise of course there is no such correlation.

Thanks a million for the kind words!



haha cheers mate and thanks a million for digging!

Yes I knew this could/would be perceived as controversial. However all I did was to put music together with existing footage of history and real life. If this is deemed as provocative then maybe the video is not the real problem. I did not discover any new facts, I just presented existing knowledge to an audience that might not have been aware of it.



I am not sure, since user accounts are tied to KPA serial number. Not sure what happens when a KPA is sold second hand though.



Hey man I am really honored you are coming back to the tune listening again to it - that's really the best feedback I can get!!

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 18 2017, 05:26 PM

FWIW, I seriously doubt any Germans are unaware of their past. The fact that they are fully aware of that past is precisely why they are so sensitive about Nazi images. I notice a number of people "Liked" the reply from G String to your question where he said he was objecting to the Hitler salute in your video. I'm just guessing, but I wouldn't be surprised if those are all German people who supported his position. It's hard for you and me to understand their extreme sensitivity to this subject, but that's exactly why we probably shouldn't be passing judgement on how they respond to it.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 18 2017, 05:30 PM

You have a valid point for these people.

But the fact remains that if we make it harder for people in general to access information about the holocaust - we are indirectly supporting a new one. And Germans, above anybody else - should see that as a major problem.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 19 2017, 12:54 AM

not only that , but they don't realize that they have gone overboard and become themselves authoritarians (limiting things " they " find offensive ) funny thing is most of what we see out of the left , in America , is the same

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 19 2017, 02:59 AM

In practical terms, can you still get to the preset exchange and such? Also, what does happen when kpas get sold to a second party? How is the forum member ship transferred? I'd be happy to be your "buyer" in such a case, as I know you need to be able to get to the forum as a kpa user, and I oppose censorship as well. So if I can help I'd be happy to.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 19 2017, 11:05 AM

The ban does not impact my ability to get profiles or software updates. So from a practical perspective, it's not a biggie. I am not sure how the transfer works but I am assuming it is possible. I won't be attempting to bypass the ban though (but maybe will email them).

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 19 2017, 02:05 PM

I'm pretty sure, as is often the case in these situations, it's a misunderstanding. You have to ask yourself: why are so many people on the Kemper forum supporting his position and nobody on that forum is supporting your position? If you read his response, you'll see he probably didn't watch the second half of the video. It sounds to me like he thinks the subject of your video is two Kemper profiles, not animal rights. He thinks you made a joke of the holocaust. If that's indeed the case, you're taking the wrong approach by complaining he's censoring you. Instead, you need to explain to him you weren't making a joke of a serious subject, a subject that, understandably, is a very sensitive one for him and the owners of that forum.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 19 2017, 03:02 PM

Yes you could be right about a possible misunderstanding. However as soon as I questioned the removal of the video he banned me. So I have to come crawling by emailing support to get my posting rights back. And as I said - I might do that. But I don't think anybody can blame me for being a bit turned off?

I came there to showcase a music video comparing old totalitarian methods with new ones - and I immediately get banned & censored.

And mind you, I am not looking for anybody's sympathy. But I do think that when authorities misbehave (big or small ones) they should be called out for it. Furthermore I don't know why anybody would take my stand when they have no clue what my video was about.

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 19 2017, 04:07 PM

I'm just explaining the possible misunderstanding that led to this situation, it's up to you to decide what to do about it . However, with all due respect, and I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, it seems to me the real problem here is neither of you is listening carefully to the other.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 19 2017, 04:32 PM

I don't know how big the Kemper forum is but it could be that they have to moderate and ban things all the time. Way more than most are even aware of - ? Consequently when a mod sees National Socialism images and references near the beginning of video on a German gear site, they just toss it and the author out. Maybe it's common on that forum - ?

I was banned for two weeks over at the TDPRI (telecaster forum, massive content and a ton of traffic) due to a complete misunderstanding. I tried in vain to explain what was misinterpreted (nothing political, nothing vulgar) but the mods were hearing nothing of it. Strictly by the book - if you say this, your post gets deleted and you get banned. No discussion. No exceptions.

Posted by: Mertay Feb 19 2017, 08:09 PM

Yeah bigger forums can be like that, I've even seen a few times where after a ban many members gathered to bring the banned member back but never seen it work.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 19 2017, 11:10 PM

Gotcha. Yeah, i'd email them for sure, if just to set the record straight. I can see how you'd be put off by them being to authoritarian in their behavior when being in opposition to authoritarian imagery. Seems a bit hypocritical. It did take enormous cahones to post a vid on a german gear site that included wwII germany army images.

Posted by: fkalich Feb 20 2017, 02:00 AM

Damn good composition and playing! Excellent. You should be proud of it.

Coincidentally enough I was discussing horrific animal agricultural practices today with my niece. I have long been aware of the atrocities and restrict my diet as much as I can so as not to support the heinous animal agricultural practices in the United States. I was talking to her about a book I am reading called "Sapiens", a book on anthropology where this is one of the things discussed. Your allusion to Nazi death camps is appropriate. That we as human beings allow the barbaric cruelties to cut costs in animal agriculture is, well I can't think of of a word to describe it, it is so contemptible. It makes me ashamed to be a human being.

I believe that the prevalent anthropocentric perspective has it's root in the fact that we are the last surviving species of the Genus Homo. Go back 100 thousand years, there were at least 6 species of humans walking the planet. People have a delusion of central position, and they disregard the welfare of other species

And in Trump/Republican administration, well as the Humane Society has said, they will push progress in this matter back 50 years. Although I think on this, as with other things, we can survive and recover from 4 years of Trump.

But again, loved your video, playing, composition. You should do these more often.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 20 2017, 10:08 PM

Nobody wants to watch the sausage being made, as they say It's just too awful. I fear you are right about going back 50 years in terms of nearly all regulatory progress. But also agree with you that we will survive 4 years and the country will move ahead :)Our system is built to be resilient and allow for shifting patterns in the demography. One bit of good news, as more folks in the world start eating meat, (the Chinese), there aren't going to be enough cows to go around. So it will become a quick motivator for finding ways to create edible meat that can be made instead of harvested.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 21 2017, 08:12 AM

Not sure what you mean? We breed cattle, we don't search for them in the wild. The unbelievable amount needed to supply people with meat & dairy is one of the big reasons why our planet is about to succumb.

The unwanted surplus of baby calves from the dairy industry is thrown into the garbage bin or sold as cheap meat. If China wants to ramp up meat production I don't see what is preventing them (except common sense of course).

The only thing that will stop us in the long run is a global & fatal environmental disaster - but this is hardly good news?

Posted by: Mertay Feb 21 2017, 12:38 PM

A close relative of mine has a lot of experience in cattling. Its actually more of a science these days as one can fill an entire library with the books written about it.

As a meat consumer I can say that if anyone hasn't eaten food from a farm animal, than he/she doesn't know how meat tastes I don't get to have high quality meat anytime either but after such experience one doesn't feel like consuming as much as they used to.

Another point; There isn't such think as safe food either,vegetables are genetically modified too and no one is certain (or willingly not researching about it) about the long term effects on humans yet.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 21 2017, 01:14 PM

The point is not to eat something 100% safe - the point is that only herbivores can develop atherosclerosis. Humans are not built to eat meat! Hence we get all sorts of chronic diseases when we do.

So in other words: the most common causes of death can be avoided if one stops consuming animal products.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 21 2017, 05:06 PM

This is highly debatable and certainly not a fact as evolutionary biology disagrees with that statement. Furthermore, the environmental impact of the meat industry is irrelevant to a discussion about evolutionary biology and whether or not humans are ominvores.

Posted by: Tom51 Feb 21 2017, 05:16 PM

Very good point Rich! I am fully with you. Its about biology and not ideology.
From an human evolutionary biology of the last few 100 thousand years a statement like "Humans are not built to eat wheat" would be a lot closer to reality.

Posted by: Mertay Feb 21 2017, 05:36 PM

Story; I had a piranha and only fed it with fish food (they're plant and shrimp based), was as tiny as my finger tip and in a year bigger than my hand. When it was grown, I placed a living small fish so he can eat it but although time passed he didn't. One day I woke-up to find that small fish in tiny peaces, he killed it brutally but didn't eat it...

Being such predators humans always were, consume or not consuming meat might also be totally irrelevant to biology.

Personally, I guess I could live without meat not missing it extremely but I can't do without fish it rejuvanets me better than anything after mental or physically tired.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 21 2017, 05:47 PM

It's not debatable, it's a fact. Only herbivores can develop atherosclerosis.

Dogs, cats, tigers, and lions can eat as much saturated fat and cholesterol as they want - whereas humans develop atherosclerosis, and often die from it.

If you do not believe me you might want to do some research on the topic. I want you to stay around here for many many more years to come.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 21 2017, 06:54 PM

If heart disease doesn't get you then cancer or a wayward bus probably will. You're a guy. Keep an eye on that prostate.
Nobody lives forever. Few even into their 90s. Anyone who makes it past 85 is on borrowed time.

Eat what you like (within reason) and include fruits and vegetables and lay off the sugar, don't smoke, don't be an alcoholic, get up from the fucking couch - exercise! and don't stress about stupid stuff or stuff you can't change.

Posted by: MonkeyDAthos Feb 21 2017, 07:01 PM

Agree 100%

Posted by: Tom51 Feb 21 2017, 07:01 PM

Cholesterol is so important for our body (brain, cell membranes, body own steroids etc...) that the liver produces it to supply enough and the body does not rely on external cholesterol sources. Its gets transported to by LDL protein where its needed and back to liver for recycling by HDL protein. (LDL HDL are lipid proteins but not Cholesterol) There is no to little correlation between cholesterol in what we eat and in the blood. So you can eat 4 eggs a day if you like, that does not impact your your health negatively or accelerates atherosclerosis.
There is much research out there that shows that saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids e.g. from butter , coconut oil, avocado ... even improve you lipid profile and inflammation is a bigger driver for atherosclerosis. (and here comes LDL, esp. small dense LDL particles into play) Sugar and excessive carbohydrates (high fructose corn sirup) in our food among others cause inflammation.

LDL depends on more factors than food only. If you exercise hard your doctor would measure a higher LDL next morning.
if you have a cold...high LDL. And so on. And that is not a bug its a normal regeneration in our body.

There is a ton of new research (last 20 years) in this matter available (from honored sources available in medical publications) which disproves some paradigms (or should we better call is narratives) about cholesterol.

And a last thing: the structure of fatty acids (e.g. in beef) change with their food too. Gras feed beef or wild animals (ruminants) is something totally different (in respect to fatty acids) to that what we get from "industrial production" where animals are feed differently.

oh....my practice time

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 21 2017, 08:47 PM

Hey Tom - awesome to see you join in. Some things (but not many) are worth sacrificing practice time for.

There are indeed many confusing studies that show eating animal products do not raise LDL (bad) cholesterol, however all the recent ones I have heard about - have these things in common:

* They are population studies that do not calculate cholesterol levels at baseline, OR they use a sick population which is already at risk of heart disease (ie many normal meat eaters)

* they are often funded by the meat/egg/dairy industry

We have known since 1979 that the only studies that can prove the correlation we are looking for - are dietary change experiments that calculate cholesterol levels at baseline. Other studies are by design incapable of finding a link between saturated fats / cholesterol and heart disease, because of the genetic variation in baseline cholesterol levels.

So when healthy test subjects are used (that have low cholesterol levels at baseline) - we can clearly see that animal products increase serum cholesterol levels and thereby increase risk of heart disease.

If you find all this confusing, it might be easier to listen a larger organisation of professionals, like the American Dietetic Association. And they seem to agree with me

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 21 2017, 08:48 PM

It just isn't so. Dogs in fact do suffer heart attacks due to atherosclerosis and coronary artery disease. Animals kept in captivity have also been found to have atherosclerotic lesions.

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cardiovascular/c_dg_atherosclerosis

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cardiovascular/c_dg_heart_attack

Thanks just the same for looking out though.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 21 2017, 08:49 PM

I would add: avoid animal products to give yourself many more years and save the planet for future generations.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 21 2017, 09:45 PM

I obviously don't have a clue why these old, uncommon and diebetes sick dogs make up for an exception.



Thanks a million Frank!! Really glad you like it

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 22 2017, 10:37 PM

I mean we are not going to be able breed enough cattle to keep up with demand. Does that make sense? There will be too much demand and supply won't be enough to meet it.

As a result, folks are going to figure out ways to grow meat in labs. Without hurting animals. That's my point

The "Good News" is that the only long term, sustainable option, is growing beef in the lab. Not growing animals, just beef. They already have places working on this. It eliminates the need to have animals involved at all. That's the good part

Here is an article from the washington post that may explain it better to ya.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/lab-grown-meat-is-in-your-future-and-it-may-be-healthier-than-the-real-stuff/2016/05/02/aa893f34-e630-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html?utm_term=.bd67014c2445
Todd

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 22 2017, 11:04 PM

Unfortunately that meat has the same health implications for humans.

If you are looking for meat alternatives, that market is exploding in this very moment. You can now find plant based substitutes that taste and feel the same (if not better).

Here is a vegan burger:



(You can google for vegan meat alternatives if you want to see more)

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2017, 03:14 PM

Move to the west coast of the United States.
Besides the coolest guitar stores on the planet we also boast the top 3 vegan/vegetarian friendly cities in the country:
Portland, Or
Los Angeles, Ca
San Francisco, Ca

Ref; Conde Nast and Peta

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 23 2017, 03:29 PM

Yeah I wish we had as much here! We can def see a trend here as well, but the variety is still a bit limited (especially in grocery stores).

However in most Asian/Indian/Middle eastern restaurants it is pretty easy to get a good vegan plate.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2017, 05:22 PM

Yeah, our west coast has huge Asian and Middle Eastern communities (and South Indian) adding to our already giant hippie vegetarian ranks. It's relatively easy to to be a vegan here. Hell, I can take you to a restaurant that classifies food according to your blood type.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 23 2017, 06:13 PM

Hey Kris, I haven't seen anything you have said that leads me to believe that you might be in favor of this but I want to ask you. Do you believe that the production and consumption of meat products should be banned?

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 23 2017, 06:16 PM

True It's still meat, still gonna clog arteries But folks are gonna eat meat. No stopping that. Also, more and more folks are starting to eat meat as they get out of poverty, as in China's growing middle class. At least with "lab grown" meat, we can eliminate the cruelty to animals that happens in large scale meat industries. That was really my point.

You can't make the decision for people to not eat meat, or not drink booze, or take drugs, but at least we can eliminate the suffering of animals associated with the consumption of beef That was my point in all this.

Of course, one can hope that folks start taking a healthier approach. But I think it's going to be a while. As folks come out of poverty and start eating more meat as a status symbol, meat will continue to be in demand. Just like Chicken. In China, Kentucky Fried Chicken is considered a "Luxury" brand for example. So lab grown chicken will be needed as well.

Also, Chines love ABALONE which is illegal to poach, but still finds it's way to market. Eventually all of these delights can be g grown in lab and hopefully have some of their negative impacts reduced by science


Todd

Gonna add some music to this. For some reason, this song pops in my head every time I'm in this thread!

Posted by: Mertay Feb 23 2017, 06:23 PM

Personal observation but to me meat seems to be consumed most by middle class. The rich seems to prefer food that has more complex recepie and taste as apposed to a simple steak.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2017, 06:50 PM

Depends. Good meat is expensive in the states.
A 'simple' steak (NY, Ribeye or fillet) that is from a free range and mostly grass fed steer - cut, aged and cooked perfectly and served with vegetables and a glass of wine or a beer - commands some of the highest prices here in the US.
*Good sushi is probably a bit pricier.

Posted by: Mertay Feb 23 2017, 07:48 PM

True, but my comment was more about general/daily eating habbits rather than the expense of the food (excluding rip-off places asking more for a salad than the beef you mentioned). Like, they probably eat 2 times a week of that expensive steak and the rest healthy french or chinese food while the middle class consumes 5-6 meat based meals (chichen,meatball spagetti etc.) and the rest basic vegetable food.

But thinking about it this can as well be location specific. I for example live in the west side of Turkey (close to Greece) as fish, herb and vegetables were historically consumed. The rich here atleast seems more curious of food made with the best of these ingredients (food thats harder to cook and needs expertise).

But in east (close to Iraq), till about 50-60 years ago (before dam's were built) they focused on animals cause though the land wasn't a desert there wasn't enough water to grow vegetables. I never lived there but guess the rich probably prefers consuming expensive (farm grown) meat there cause I know they find Aegean food very "boring" to eat

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 23 2017, 07:51 PM

That's my point The rising middle class in places like China is what is going to create the massive demand for beef.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 23 2017, 09:37 PM

I certainly wouldn't mind, though I don't believe in that method.

However I do believe that everyone who eats animal products deserves to know how it impacts them, the planet and the animals. That is why I am truly pissed at the industry. Not because they produce animal products when there is a demand - but because they do all they can to manipulate and confuse the masses, and thereby jeopardising our future in so many different ways. In my weak moments I wish them the same fate as the animals.


I wonder if the Chinese middle class will find it equally appealing to smoke cigarettes? Eating animal products is just as cool as smoking was 30 years ago. When people finally got it, they stopped (if they could).

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2017, 10:25 PM

Smoking is still cool. Especially with a burger and a cup of coffee.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 23 2017, 11:24 PM

I am much more impressed by a cool chord melody

Posted by: bleez Feb 23 2017, 11:54 PM

That made me LOL!

I now imagine hanging out with Ken is like -

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 24 2017, 01:21 AM

are we talking milk and cheeses too

Posted by: klasaine Feb 24 2017, 02:16 AM

More like this ...



And this ...

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 24 2017, 09:54 PM

IT's going to be a while I think Most of the world is just now getting to the point, financially, where eating beef products is even possible. We take it for granted of course. So folks just entering the middle classes will probably have to go through the same things western cultures went through and even then, only some will decide to go vegan/vegetarian etc.

For example, the States have wads of vegans but carnivore's are still in the majority and probably will be for some time to come. So the best we can hope for, especially short term, is to at least relieve the suffering of animals. The suffering of people seems to be self induced

here is dennis leary talking about wanting to indulge from way back when in Demolition Man.
Then of course Rocky learns that Meat and most anything else "not healthy" has been made illegal, including foul language.




Sorry to use double vids, but both were so funny I had to add them Old, very bad movies, are great for quotes.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 24 2017, 10:33 PM

Yes, all animal products. Milk is a chapter on its own, btw



Don't be so pessimistic, it's a very fast growing movement!

The UK has seen an increase of 360% of the last 10 years, with currently 0,5 million vegans. I think the US has similar numbers. And these are just the people who follow the diet strictly - so it does not give the whole picture.

Basically when people realise there are no logical reasons to continue - they tend to try to make the switch. Especially younger people who don't have the cultural/social aspects as deeply rooted.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 24 2017, 11:42 PM

Well, here in the states, Meat is sorta like Guns, it's almost built in to our culture. It's got massive negative outcomes, but it's still just sorta there. One always hopes for the best to be sure But like I was saying, at the very least, we can put a stop to animal cruelty. Stopping human self cruelty, as it were, may take a bit longer

Posted by: klasaine Feb 25 2017, 01:20 AM

Dairy too?
Now them's is fightin' words.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 25 2017, 08:23 AM

If we get rid of Milk Shakes and Ice Cream, why live?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 25 2017, 02:04 PM

I hear you. Same here, traditional Swedish food is nothing but healthy, it's just meat, dairy and blood (!). But again, smoking was also something everyone did until people started understanding you actually die from it. I don't know how it is in the US but Swedes have almost completely stopped smoking, and there are almost no public places that allow it.



Don't get rid of it then! Even here we have tons of cruelty free ice-cream to choose form.

generic vegan ice-cream search:

https://www.google.se/search?q=vegan+ice+cream&espv=2&biw=1354&bih=730&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhgvb_p6vSAhWB3SwKHZypBsIQ_AUIBigB

Posted by: klasaine Feb 25 2017, 03:24 PM

I could give up ice cream but not (real) cheese.

Cruelty free makes for better tasting dairy anyway. We run the gamut out here from mega industrial dairy farms to small, independent, family owned dairies (and ranches). Local grown, organic milk and yogurt (and meat) is easy to find, even in the bigger chain supermarkets. The price can be prohibitive though.

*In keeping with the WWII theme, we call Cali's biggest industrial meat and dairy region Cowschwitz. The Harris Ranch Farm in Coalinga Ca. ... http://www.invisible5.org/index.php?page=fresnocoalinga
In fairness, the cattle are primarily grazed and grass fed on several western ranches before they get to the Harris Ranch feed lot where they then get a mix of corn, grain and grass before being harvested. The photos generally posted on-line are of the cows in the feed lot near the end of the 'cycle'.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 25 2017, 08:38 PM

has there ever been any thought given to the amount of produce needed to switch the whole world to vegans and would said world be able to sustain protein intake , cause my main concern are the vegans that are emaciated due to lack of

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 25 2017, 08:55 PM

Very true The end of the line is often where the really rough pix come from. Free range products are available, but like you say, the cost can get in the way. I"m ok with eating beef/chicken "ish" products that get grown in a lab and just leave real animals out it. Perhaps they can get rid of some of the unlhealthy bits of meat eating using science as well. That would be ideal imho I'm prone to enjoy a nice burger or bbq (barcecue is almost a religion in parts of the South), so creating a way to get folks needs met without the health problems, and animal issues would be great So science better get cracking!!

Todd

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 25 2017, 10:59 PM

Protein is not a problem. We are herbivores and have no problems developing large muscle mass by eating plant based protein.

And if everyone would become vegan the 56 billion farmed animals we breed an kill every year would no longer burden the planet (remember those animals are mostly "vegan" - and an insane amount of soy etc are needed to feed them.)

Posted by: klasaine Feb 25 2017, 11:42 PM

Yeah, as much as I love meat - it's pretty well established that using the same space for plant based agriculture is a much more efficient use of land resources in many regards. I can't remember the exact statistic but I believe that the US alone could feed double it's current population with the grain that's used just to feed livestock.

I'm not giving up meat but I am fully aware of it's impact large and small. My grandfather was a butcher and also owned a (Kosher) meat packing plant with his brother. I've seen it raised, killed, processed and packed.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 26 2017, 12:50 AM

so give me my diet , I work construction and need tons of protein and carbs . I got 8 kids so money is a big issue , how would you start if You were me . I don"t have an issue with farming animals and think the global warming ? green house gas scare is out of proportion . But a better diet that yields benefits is always an option.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 26 2017, 04:30 PM

There are a ton of options ... https://www.google.com/search?q=vegetarian+diet+for+athletes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
But are you gonna be OK with the taste and texture?

As you would probably imagine there's plenty of Vegetarian and Vegan construction workers and athletes out here in CA.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 26 2017, 08:44 PM

Vegan diets are the cheapest! However many people opt for mock meats (etc) during the first transitional phase - and those cost as much as real meat.

If you have been eating greens & fruits up to this point - then the biggest change will probably be to get familiar with

* legumes (beans, lentils etc) as those will be your primary protein source - and:

* seeds and nuts. These are needed for lots of healthy stuff (like omega 3, iron, zinc etc).

The key, as with any diet - is to eat as diverse as possible.

Also worth noting, is that if you go completely vegan - you need to supplement with vitamin B12.

Personally I haven't really had any problems adapting - but I love trying new stuff and this has opened up to a new world of exciting new foods from all around the world. I am absolutely loving it, and more importantly I have more energy and can be more productive.

Posted by: Mertay Feb 27 2017, 08:16 AM

http://www.avclub.com/article/president-trump-orders-his-steak-well-done-ketchup-251081

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 27 2017, 01:38 PM

This is why he is President , you can smell the condescension from the smug holes( that think they can tell everything about anybody because how they like their steak cooked) and America is sick of that. It is going to be so fun watching their tantrums for the next 4 years and if they don't learn anything , maybe 8

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 27 2017, 03:55 PM

This is especially so with a vegan diet. The problem is not getting a sufficient amount of protein, the problem is getting a sufficient variety of amino acids with a vegan diet. A diverse diet when eating vegan is critically important to avoid this problem.

I'm with Ken. While not vegan, I try to be aware of the impact of what I eat and moderate my habits accordingly. In any case, I do enjoy a good soy sausage .

Posted by: klasaine Feb 27 2017, 05:48 PM

There's a Mexican place near me that offers vegan 'soy'rizo (chorizo - Mexican sausage) tacos, burritos, sopes, etc. I like it better than the real chorizo.

I also like ketchup on my steak. Even a really good steak. I like ketchup.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 27 2017, 06:31 PM

He's President because he doesn't know how to properly order / enjoy steak? That's a new one I guess the dems better start asking for folks to burn their steaks as well then!

Todd

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 27 2017, 06:35 PM

You sound like my old man and my brother, especially when my brother was younger, he would put ketchup on anything and everything, especially vegetables . I never seen either of them put it on a steak though. I rarely put anything on my steak, especially if it is a really good one. Every once in a while I like some A1 steak sauce.
And oh how I love chorizo!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 27 2017, 11:57 PM

This is also an old myth, almost all food sources have a complete amino acid profile. The idea that vegans have to combine protein sources was popularised by the Vogue magazine in 1975. Again a falsehood with devastating health effect on people, as animal proteins themselves promote cancer cell growth through numerous pathways (on top of the cholesterol and saturated fat contained in all animal products).

There are lots of vegan athletes, bodybuilders and even a world record holding strongman (Patrik Baboumian).

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 28 2017, 01:31 AM

For the purpose of getting the essential amino acids, variety is more important in a vegetarian diet than in a carnivorous diet. Pretty much any serving of meat or eggs you eat would give you enough of all of them. On the other hand, you can't say that any vegetable will also give you enough of all of them. That simply isn't true. In any case, relax Kristofer, nobody is saying there is anything wrong with a vegan diet .

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 28 2017, 01:49 AM

Do I really need to explain it . or are you just trolling


so I bought some veggie burgers , I love cheeses , not so much milk , but all I eat during the day is cottage cheese , so I wil start slow andl see how it goes

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 28 2017, 01:54 PM

Just responding to what you said? If that's the reason trump won, then yeah, dems better learn how to order burned steaks!! It evidently wins elections! Who knew that ruining a good piece of beef could win you the presidency? He even owned a steak company for a while, so I guess he's burned quite a few of them.

For folks that actually know how to enjoy a steak, burning is just poor form. If you are gonna order a steak well done, just save the steak and the chef, and just order a pork chop or a hamburger. Don't waste good steak for no reason. But hey, it's America so folks can order all the burned steak they want.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 28 2017, 01:59 PM

Apologies for not being relaxed when you spread misunderstandings that needlessly kill humans and animals.

* There are 9 amino acids which the human body cannot produce on its own, those are referred to "essential" amino acids

* Foods lacking those are regarded as incomplete

* The only food lacking a complete such profile is gelatin (which is not vegan)

So when you are saying "you can't say that any vegetable will also give you enough of all of them”. What exactly are you referring to? Please clarify

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 28 2017, 02:35 PM

Kristofer, I'm agreeing with you that a diverse diet is important. This is especially so since some vegetables have insufficient quantities of the essential amino acids. You're making me regret that I went to the trouble of posting a reply to agree with your position. Remind me to never do that again .

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 28 2017, 05:43 PM

I guess I would have thought that you would see the analogy showing the superiority complex of one with such attitudes ^

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 28 2017, 11:00 PM

That's awesome to hear man , congratualtions!



Yeah I guess the point we're trying to get across is that just a because a diet is vegan - it is not necessarily healthy. You can die early on a vegan junk food diet for example. And you can develop deficiencies on a 100% "raw" diet.

So the point is to eat with as much variation as possible. But there is also widely spread misconception that it is somehow hard to get proteins on a vegan diet - and this is simply not correct, unless you completely exclude legumes. So to clarify, by excluding legumes you would miss the "variation" part which obviously is a keyword here.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 1 2017, 12:15 AM

Ahh. So it's the superiority complex as evidenced by a man ordering steak like a 12 year old? Come on. Somebody has got to call him out out that. It would be wrong not too.

Posted by: Rammikin Mar 1 2017, 03:34 AM

You're off by one year:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-uses-language-typical-of-children-under-11-a6936256.html

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 1 2017, 02:34 PM

so I had the burger last night , and , it was good , I was shocked, I don"t have clue what texturized vegetable protein is and financially this isn"t an option , but I will start looking into more options





no , the superiority complex of those saying " because I am better than him and how this disgusting misogynistic brute ( who probably treats his women like his steak)or someone saying he orders like a 12 year old " this is the mentality that drove states that obama won into Trump.
micheal moore figured it out , yes i know his thought process was not finished in this speech , but this was in response to the a fore mentioned attitude
Your hatred for the man is so strong , I fear you are not seeing straight

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 1 2017, 05:38 PM

And here we go, complete with propoganda vid. Sigh. The article never called him a mysoginistic brute. That's in your head. I think that's were we run in to problems. You reading in to things that are not there. But it is what it is.

The article just pointed out how he ordered his steak. IMHO, he ordered poorly, as a child might. But that's just my thoughts and I'm entitled to them as any man is. If you have a problem with that I can't help you. But please rant on in the typical manner. It's become more of an entertainment value that anything else. Any man that want's to "grab them in the pussy" deserves a bit of push back, but he has his batch of lapdog followers. It's sad, but funny, so please continue

Posted by: klasaine Mar 1 2017, 05:49 PM

The meat substitute thing is more expensive than your everyday meat - plain old hamburger and chicken. There's more processing involved and as of now and it's done by smaller scale operations compared to meat processing.

You won't see a reduction in cost until you can get away from 'faking yourself out' with the substitute meat products. And depending on how much you like vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes, etc. - that may take awhile.

I'm by no means a vegetarian but I have a lot of friends that are and have been for years (some, decades). When we have people over or go to parties or go out to dinner where the majority are vegetarian, we do like they do - it's just easier and as my wallet shows me ... definitely cheaper.

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 1 2017, 07:57 PM

the video was Micheal Moore , I thought if he figured it out , he might help guide you . My quote was an example expressing Ideology and Wrong think ( and you know many that oppose trump speak like that ) , I am crushed that you were not capable of determining that.
Like I said we have given you the tools , But if you can't listen , It is turning out to be a good 8 years.

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 1 2017, 08:47 PM

I only eat meat at dinner , but it is important , so finding a substitute for all our casserole type dishes will be the challenge . As far as vegies , I really already enjoy most except Brusel sprouts and Asparagus

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 2 2017, 01:18 AM

The "expressing of ideology and wrong think" was the part you dreamed up in your own head. It's nowhere in the article. But you are welcome to interpret anything any way you want as are we all It was just an article about how Trump ordered his steak. Not a political lampoon.

8 Years is a longshot imho. I"m guessing prison in less than two. Then Pence get's his chance. Assuming the intelligence services don't do pull a Kennedy on him first of course.

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 2 2017, 01:35 AM

TO TODD:
your funny , didn" you say you have taught at university level and yet you are not getting this analogy of an ideology. I guess I will have to ask . If there is anyone who knows how to say this to todd so he understands the analogy? , feel free to help .

Posted by: klasaine Mar 2 2017, 01:56 AM

I don't do Brussels Sprouts either. Echh. And they seem to be all the rage right now.

Try Tempeh or Seitan as a sub for meat in casseroles

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 2 2017, 04:34 PM

Yup Taught at Uni. Was quite fun But forgive me if your version of interpretation doesn't match up with mine. I had a few students at uni, That tended to read too much in to things as well. It's fine though, as I've stated three times now, you can read anything you like in to anything you want Free country and all. Getting me to agree with such is unlikely as I find it pure poppycock. But thats up to me Not you.

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 2 2017, 08:21 PM

you don"t have to agree with my poppycock all day long , I wasn"t trying to peruse the letter of the article, I thought I made it clear, it was the Ideology of the person writing it that got Trump elected . the superiority that starts " what kind of a-hole over cooks and puts ketchup on a steak

Let me ask you , Is now asking for a steak the way you like reason enough to get called an a-hole, is this the fine standard we have set in America for the rest of the world to follow. The mighty left side of politics, so accepting, they can"t even let the man eat his food the way he wants . if you can"t understand that illustration ,I don"t now what to think.
And after you have proven me right or wrong( for calling someone an a-hole for how he likes his steak)how is that helping this conversation? Now you don"t have to believe this , But Trump creamed Hillary and the Left needs to do some soul searching or it will be 8

Posted by: Rammikin Mar 2 2017, 08:40 PM

I think the key with making Brussels sprouts palatable is seasoning. A little bit of olive oil and some pepper, or some soy sauce, will help reduce the bitterness.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 2 2017, 08:45 PM

I never called anyone an ahole. I said he ordered his steak like a child, which he did I don't think that calling him out on that won him the election. Frustrated and frightened lower middle class white voters who have been left behind by globalization won him the vote imho. That's what the statistics prove anyway. I've quoted them in other threads from Pew research. Not breitbart or some blog. So that's pretty much that as far as I'm concerned unless you can show me stats from Pew Research or Reuters that contradict that, good luck. The number speak for themselves. Reading too much in to a simple article calling him out on his ordeing habits is quite beside the point imho. But again, that's my view you don' have to share it or even understand it, much less agree with it Free country and all. Love Trump all you like

Posted by: Mertay Mar 2 2017, 08:47 PM

Best cooked with fry pan!

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 2 2017, 09:23 PM

The article I was referring called him that , did you read it?
and were these the same stats that said hillary would win ?

Posted by: Rammikin Mar 2 2017, 09:36 PM

Or even grilled! I grill a lot of things some might find unusual: apples, sweet potatoes, polenta, even pizza .

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 2 2017, 09:37 PM

@Todd & @jstcrsn - your off topic fuss is starting to ruin a constructive and positive topic. Could you please keep it out of here? thanks

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 2 2017, 09:57 PM

not bad taste , but the burping , not good



oh man, your no fun , but OK

Posted by: Mertay Mar 2 2017, 10:34 PM

I'll definitly try grill pizza!

Posted by: klasaine Mar 3 2017, 03:54 AM

I've tried Brussels Sprouts probably every way imaginable (my wife loves them). I don't dig 'em. My palette's pretty broad. I can't like everything.

Posted by: Rammikin Mar 3 2017, 04:35 AM

One day we're going to get somebody who likes brussels sprouts in the white house. Then those of us who like them will no longer have to put up with all the condescension from those who don't. Our rampant petty vindictiveness will be sweet! After that, we're coming after people who don't like cauliflower! Make vegetables great again!

Sorry, I couldn't resist

Posted by: klasaine Mar 3 2017, 05:31 AM

Cauliflower I like. Hell, I even like beets.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 3 2017, 09:34 AM

I love to do big curries where I throw in everything I can find, veggies, legumes, all sorts of spices and weird spice mixes. Yummi!!

For my kids a favorite has been tofu/tempeh/seitan and we try to give it all sorts of different tastes. These are usually taste neutral so it's easy to to give them different flavors by yourself. We eat this with pasta, rice etc.

We have also tried lots of different 'fake' burgers, sausage, meat balls, bacon etc - most of them work well if accompanied with some spices and veggies.

The biggest challenge for me was the sweets though, I love cake and chocolate. Now I have found that it is possible to make amazing plant-based cakes. However you can't find alot of plant based sweets variety in the stores here. So this has def led to me consuming less of the junk stuff - which is a good thing. This is likely also part of the reason why I have had so much more energy since going plant-based. Btw I have also started eating more fruit.

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 3 2017, 12:34 PM

them I am putting ketchup on them

Posted by: Todd Simpson Mar 3 2017, 03:15 PM

Well said ! Make Veggies great again


Todd

Will do