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Eighth Note Triplets
Phil66
Oct 12 2021, 07:26 AM
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Oi Phil, NOOOOOO laugh.gif

Thanks Ben, I appreciate your help, I just don't think it's ever going to sink in. I'm good at maths but when applied to music I have a mental block. I think I might take up pottery biggrin.gif I was thinking that maybe "quarter note" didn't actually refer to an actual quarter but had, over the years, just become nomenclature. Wishful thinking I suppose rolleyes.gif

I'll read through your explanation a few times. Cheers

UPDATE: Basically, note length has nothing to do with bar length, it is to do with BPM, I think.

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 12 2021, 11:50 AM


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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 11:58 AM
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Try to think of rhythm theory as math, really.

A whole = 1/1, half = 1/2, quarter 1/4... and so on. I'm sure you know these.

1/1 = 2/2 = 4/4 = 8/8 = 16/16 and so on.

1/4 = 2/8 = 4/16.

Here are some nice illustrations take from https://musictheorysite.wordpress.com/2015/...-simple-metre/:

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

However a bar of 3/4 is "complete" at a value of three quarter notes. Remember how typically we count 1, 2, 3, 4 in 4/4? Those beats are quarter notes. In 3/4 we count 1, 2, 3 and then start over. And those are also quarter notes, but there are only 3 of them to complete the bar.

An exercise could be to think about how many note values it takes to fill 7/8, 5/4 or any other time signature you might use, but be free to use any note value. Pink Floyd has some songs that use some other time signatures ("Money" for instance).

I'll give you an example:
7/8 has seven 8th notes to be complete, but as we saw earlier in this post two 8th notes equal a quarter note. This means we could also have three quarter notes plus an 8th note to fill the bar. This time signature is more advanced than 3/4 or 5/4 of course, but the principle is the same.

Thinking of these note values as divisions (they are literally divisions) can also help in understanding rhythm.
A bar of 4/4 could be made up of these combined values for instance (this is just an example, there are endless combinations):
Five 16th-notes, one 8th-note, one 16th note and 2 quarter-notes. This will add up to 4/4, which is essentially the same length as one whole-note.

You could try to do a similar execise for 3/4 using any combination of note-values, as long as they add up to a total of 3/4. The exercise can be done for any time signature.
You will probably notice that a whole-note (Remember it means "whole" as in 1/1 = 2/2 = 4/4) cannot be fitted into the bar, and the only way to play it would be to tie it over the bar-line, meaning we would write that whole-note note-value as "something that fits into 3/4" (you do the math wink.gif ) and whatever is left of it is tied on in the next bar (hint: there's an example in GP file from my last post).

Remember that a "quarter note" will NOT have different lengths in 3/4, 4/4, 5/4 or 15/16 for that matter. Only thing that changes the note length of a quarter note is the BPM of the song or exercise. Time signature is not equal to the tempo (BPM), but to how the song is counted.

I'm gonna stop here before going into explaining more behind BPM as it can complicate things, but I'm more than open to continue about that smile.gif

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Let's also sum up quickly about triplets from earlier:



A triplet is 3 notes in the time of 2. 8th-note triplets have a "3" marked above them (sometimes not in classical music notation), but the flags on the notes are the same as that of a regular 8th note - a single flag. Similarly 16th notes have 2 flags. 16th note triplets have 2 flags, but also a 3 above them.

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BONUS info on the blues shuffle:
In blues you often have a shuffle feel, which is actually indicated as this:



The simple explanation is that it means that two 8th notes are played as "1 quarter note triplet + 1 eigth note triplet" - you know that shuffly feel of holding the first note longer and the second one shorter. It comes from feeling it like triplets actually, and here is an illustration:

Attached Image

Notice how the blue square is a bit cluttered notation wise, and the shuffle marking clears up the notation a bit. However, they are still played the same way. The note values in green and red are there to illustrate subdivions. You can see how the quarter-note beat still falls on 1, 2, 3, 4, while there are eight 8th-notes to fill the bar. Meanwhile you can also see the triplets and how a quarter-note triplet equals two 8th-note triplets (you will have to compare the rhythm in the blue square with the upper rhythm of the green square). Guitar Pro does a good job of lining these up for a visual representation too.

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 12 2021, 11:59 AM


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Phil66
Oct 12 2021, 12:20 PM
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Thanks Ben,

Yeah I get the maths but as said, for some crazy reason I thought it had become nomenclature.

In my update above I said "UPDATE: Basically, note length has nothing to do with bar length, it is to do with BPM, I think."

So at 60bpm, a quarter note would last one second, a whole note would last 4 seconds etc etc.

Cheers

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 12 2021, 01:20 PM) *
Thanks Ben,

Yeah I get the maths but as said, for some crazy reason I thought it had become nomenclature.

In my update above I said "UPDATE: Basically, note length has nothing to do with bar length, it is to do with BPM, I think."

So at 60bpm, a quarter note would last one second, a whole note would last 4 seconds etc etc.

Cheers




Yes, I noticed your edit as I was 3/4 through writing my reply. I decided to just finish the reply. Maybe there is some useful information for someone else cool.gif

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MonkeyDAthos
Oct 12 2021, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 11 2021, 09:58 PM) *
A quarter note is the same length no matter the time signature. Doesn't matter if it's in a quarter note in 7/8, 21/32, 4/4 or 3/4 time signature smile.gif

A whole note in 3/4 will actually last longer than the bar, and thus not be "possible" to notate in 3/4. A whole note is 4 quarter notes, adding up to one bar of 3/4 plus a quarter note - making it last 4/4. So a quarter note in 3/4 will still be that 1/4. How many quarters does it take to fill 3/4? It takes 3, but they're still the same size quarters as the 4 quarters in 4/4.

A whole note is...a whole note. 1/1 or 4/4, 8/8 etc. A whole note in 3/4 will not be 3/4, as that's not "whole", but the length of three quarter notes. 7/8 is the length of 7 eighth notes...or 3½ quarter notes.

The note value length themselves do not change depending on the time signature. A quarter note in 4/4 will last just as long as in 3/4, 7/8 or 21/16.

The only thing that makes an individual note value change the length it is being played is the BPM a song is played at. I.e. A quarter note at 120 bpm is faster than one in 90 BPM. It doesn't get faster or slower by being in 3/4 or 4/4.

Have you ever thought of it as math?

Whole note = 1/1
Half note = 1/2
Quarter = 1/4
Eighth = 1/8
Sixteenth = 1/16

How many quarter notes does it take to fill 3/4? It takes three.
How many quarter notes does it take to fill 4/4? It takes four. Which is equal to 1/1 or the length of a whole note.

The length of the quarter doesn't change.

How many whole notes are there in a bar of 3/4 though? Since a whole note is 1/1, the answer will be that they "overflow" the bar, hence leading to going into the next bar of 3/4, but not filling that bar up. Essentially a whole note is 4/4, but since our bar is filled at 3/4 the last part of the whole note's length woulc have to carry on into the next bar.

EDIT: Adding GP files.
[attachment=52830:4_four_and_3_4.gp5]
[attachment=52831:4_four_and_3_4.gp]

And with different instruments and pan to easier hear it. Notice the text above the staff.
[attachment=52832:4_four_a...and_pan_.gp]

To sum up: A quarter note is 1/4, a whole note is 1/1. A 4/4 is four quarter notes, and 3/4 is three quarter notes, but the length (time it plays) of a quarter note is not different in 4/4 or 3/4 or any other time signature. A quarter note will never last a third of a whole note.

Screenshot for those who do not have Guitar Pro:

[attachment=52833:GP_screenshot.png]



cool.gif Have you ever considered teaching guitar. I think you have a lot of potential as a teacher laugh.gif

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (MonkeyDAthos @ Oct 12 2021, 03:22 PM) *
cool.gif Have you ever considered teaching guitar. I think you have a lot of potential as a teacher laugh.gif


Yes, quite often. I did sort plan out some subjects for a book some years back, but I didn't get too far with it. I don't like teaching live real life lessons though, so I think I would prefer making pre-planned videos and PDF files - and at a push some streams.

However there are a few other barriers of course, but maybe some day I'll manage to break through them. It is something I'm thinking about and considering. cool.gif

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Todd Simpson
Oct 13 2021, 02:25 AM
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Wow. That's the best explanation of time I think I've ever seen. I hope it gets put in our wiki! I'm gonna PM Fran.

Todd


QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 12 2021, 06:58 AM) *
Try to think of rhythm theory as math, really.

A whole = 1/1, half = 1/2, quarter 1/4... and so on. I'm sure you know these.

1/1 = 2/2 = 4/4 = 8/8 = 16/16 and so on.

1/4 = 2/8 = 4/16.

Here are some nice illustrations take from https://musictheorysite.wordpress.com/2015/...-simple-metre/:

Attached Image

Attached Imageplets (you will have to compare the rhythm in the blue square with the upper rhythm of the green square). Guitar Pro does a good job of lining these up for a visual representation too.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!
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Caelumamittendum
Oct 14 2021, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 13 2021, 03:25 AM) *
Wow. That's the best explanation of time I think I've ever seen. I hope it gets put in our wiki! I'm gonna PM Fran.

Todd


Thanks, Todd. It was very much off the top of my head written-in-a-hurry kinda thing. I'd go more in depth with stuff like this if I were to write lesson material on it.

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