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> Very Interesting Video, What made Mr Bonham great?
Phil66
post Oct 24 2019, 09:00 PM
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Came across this looking for some isolated guitar tracks on YT. The analysis is fascinating and for me, the examples are hard to hear sometimes but very interesting all the same.

Let me know your thoughts wink.gif

https://youtu.be/UvOm2oZRQIk



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Todd Simpson
post Oct 24 2019, 11:44 PM
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Bonham was a bit amazing imho. Even now, he is still appreciated. His sense of rythm was well complex yet groovy. He could let the band pass over him while he played 4/4 or he could pass by them playing 16/8, they caught up with each other at the chorus usually smile.gif He had a syncopation that really added to the music. The only other drummer that comes to mind with such a musical sense of rythm is Mr. Peart from RUSH. Both guys make the drums in to a musical instrument, not just a rythmic instrument.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 24 2019, 04:00 PM) *
Came across this looking for some isolated guitar tracks on YT. The analysis is fascinating and for me, the examples are hard to hear sometimes but very interesting all the same.

Let me know your thoughts wink.gif

https://youtu.be/UvOm2oZRQIk
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Phil66
post Oct 26 2019, 07:44 AM
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I had heard the musical side of his playing but after watching that video I now understand why some Zeppelin stuff sounded strange to me, I could never put my finger on it but now I know it's Page and Jones playing a different time signature to Bonham wacko.gif


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DeGroot
post Oct 26 2019, 04:25 PM
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Saw this video a while back and just watch again. Interesting examples he analyzes! Definitely opened my eyes to a few breakdowns I would have not noticed on my own. Really cool stuff from one of my all time favorite bands. smile.gif


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klasaine
post Oct 26 2019, 06:17 PM
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It cannot be overstated how much Bonham was into jazz, soul and funk music.

Kashmir is just in 3, not two different time signatures. JB may be laying down what feels like a back beat but that doesn't change the time signature of the song.

Same for Fool in the Rain. Bonzo is playing a 12/8 shuffle groove ... as is the rest of the band.

Black Dog is totally weird in the section that's mentioned and no one, including this video, has ever been able to explain it clearly. *I don't think Page and Jones are playing in 9 over Bonham's 4. I don't know what the fck it is.

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Todd Simpson
post Oct 26 2019, 06:45 PM
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Yup! That's the "wrap around" effect. Where they pass like ships in the night and sometimes come back together for another part of the song. When the drummer slips right past the bass player it can strike the ears as odd. It's part of what made their sound so unique. Bold choice, especially for popular music as it makes it hard to "dance to" or clap to, etc. smile.gif
QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 26 2019, 02:44 AM) *
I had heard the musical side of his playing but after watching that video I now understand why some Zeppelin stuff sounded strange to me, I could never put my finger on it but now I know it's Page and Jones playing a different time signature to Bonham wacko.gif
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DeGroot
post Oct 26 2019, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 26 2019, 05:17 PM) *
Black Dog is totally weird in the section that's mentioned and no one, including this video, has ever been able to explain it clearly. *I don't think Page and Jones are playing in 9 over Bonham's 4. I don't know what the fck it is.


Had to listen to that section again. That part struck me as the most odd. Its peculiar to me that the guitars for brief moments sound out of time (or just floating around the 4/4 drum part), specifically near the very end of the riff. Still sounds really cool though. But to me it all glues back together with a more rock solid foundation with the next riff.

It was interesting to find that Bonzo was influenced by jazz and funk. I probably subconsciously assumed the rest of the band is all blues based cause thats always the first thing mentioned with Page being the "blues" guy. I would imagine that John Paul Jones had a whole other world of influences he brought to the band.



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klasaine
post Oct 27 2019, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE (DeGroot @ Oct 26 2019, 11:46 AM) *
I would imagine that John Paul Jones had a whole other world of influences he brought to the band.


All the orchestral parts and any keyboard things were played and written by JPJ. Page gets a lot of press about about being a session guitarist prior to the Yardbirds but it was John Paul Jones who was making his living (a very good one) exclusively from playing bass and keys and writing string and horn parts for British TV and playing on a ton of pop records made in London at the time.
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 28 2019, 01:13 PM
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The band had two of the best session players in the country. Pair that with the wild talent of Bonham and the vocals of plant, and you have a super group. smile.gif
QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 27 2019, 08:37 AM) *
All the orchestral parts and any keyboard things were played and written by JPJ. Page gets a lot of press about about being a session guitarist prior to the Yardbirds but it was John Paul Jones who was making his living (a very good one) exclusively from playing bass and keys and writing string and horn parts for British TV and playing on a ton of pop records made in London at the time.
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fkalich
post Oct 29 2019, 03:15 AM
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What made him such a great drummer was luck, Terry Reid turned down Page as his singer, but suggested Robert Plant to him. Bonham was in a band with Plant at the time and came along.

Not that he was not a fine drummer, but Zep was Page's band, no page, no Zep. None of the others were essential. And they would have been better had Reid taken the job, even Plant knows his voice never was on Reid's level.

The one 60's drummer that really mattered was Keith Moon. No Moon, no Who. And the rest of the band knew that.

edit: One qualification, regarding Moon i mean he was the catalyst who elevated the other members to a higher level, to where they became an international success rather than local yocals playing clubs in England. Page would have been there with any drummer that he had hired.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Oct 29 2019, 03:22 AM
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Mertay
post Oct 29 2019, 10:36 AM
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Cool video. Found this for a bit more basic explanation of one of the ways to complicate the feel;



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klasaine
post Oct 29 2019, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Oct 28 2019, 07:15 PM) *
What made him such a great drummer was luck,


Luck = preparation meeting opportunity.

A band, probably a very good band led by Page would have existed w/o Bonham or any of the rest of the guys - but Led Zeppelin would not have.

There are always hypothetical "could haves" or "maybe nots". If the Beatles' (first) drummer's mom didn't own a club maybe Brian Epstein would have never heard them. If the receptionist at Sun Rercords didn't call Sam Phillips (at home) to say that some truck driver just came in to record a song for his mother's birthday and it's really good - you should hear him. If Jimi Hendrix decided not to go to London on a whim with a guy he met through his girlfriend. If David Bowie (and Jackson Brown) didn't hear SRV at a small bar in Montreux, etc., etc., etc.
Page found Plant through Reid and found Bonham through Plant. The Zen guy would say ' following the path'.
Right place, right time and prepared for the job. That's how one gets a gig.

"It's all luck, it's just luck. You get a little lucky and you make a little money" - Joni Mitchell (the Dry Cleaner From Des Moines).

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 29 2019, 04:16 PM
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Phil66
post Oct 29 2019, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 29 2019, 03:24 PM) *
Right place, right time and prepared for the job. That's how one gets a gig.


But this is about his drumming skills not how far he got in the industry, had Zeppelin not happened with Bonham he may still have been alive and been that amazing drummer in that pub band that played pubs in Kinver with occasional appearances from his mate Robert Plant.

Little story: I nearly ran Robert Plant over in my car once, I was driving through Wolverley and this bloke was jogging towards me in a red tracksuit, a car overtook another on the other side of the road and I had to brake and swerve, Robert jumped onto the verge cursing but I had stopped before I was near him. I used to drink in a pub called the Live and Let Live in Wolverley not far from where he lived, anyway, that very same night he was in there at the bar, I told him it was me that gave him a scare and what happened, bought him a pint and all was good.



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klasaine
post Oct 29 2019, 08:00 PM
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biggrin.gif Awesome rock star story!

My point about Bonzo and "luck" was to iterate that regardless of how the circumstances unfolded, it's always a process of circumstances unfolding that results in whatever coming to be. I'll bet if you ask Page he'd say that he was the lucky one.

I hate playing the "what if" game. There are no what ifs, only what is.

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Phil66
post Oct 29 2019, 08:06 PM
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The point is though, he had the skills to be a great drummer, the video isn't about how famous he got but about his great skills wink.gif

Another story but where its me nearly getting run over, I was with my girlfriend (now my wife) and we were going for a Saturday afternoon pint in the Lock Inn also in Wolverley, the car park is on the other side of the road which is a country lane, I ran across the road when Roy Wood came along in his Range Rover at a mad speed just missing me. I soon my fist at him, he put his thumb up out of the side window rolleyes.gif

Both of those stories happened sometime in the mid 80's. I used to see Plant a lot in that pub, (now houses sad.gif ) most of the time he was talking about his fitness training.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 29 2019, 09:12 PM


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klasaine
post Oct 29 2019, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 29 2019, 12:06 PM) *
The point is though, he had the skills to be a great drummer, the video isn't about how famous he got but shot his great skills wink.gif


Believe me I agree about JBs talent. I'm in the camp of 'best rock drummer ever'.
Hence my comment; Luck = opportunity meets preparation.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 29 2019, 10:49 PM
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Mertay
post Oct 30 2019, 12:02 AM
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It's often an artist takes elements from other music.

Probably best lesson to learn here is not saying "I don't need this" when improving things like theory, harmony or limiting yourself to a single kind of music.

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Todd Simpson
post Oct 30 2019, 01:27 AM
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Well said! Staying open to a variety of influences is key in developing ones growth as a musician. other instruments, other styles, etc. Some folks get really hyper focused, on say, Black Metal, and then everything they write sorta sounds the same. Not always the case, look at ISAAHN, but yeah variety is the spice of life smile.gif
QUOTE (Mertay @ Oct 29 2019, 07:02 PM) *
It's often an artist takes elements from other music.

Probably best lesson to learn here is not saying "I don't need this" when improving things like theory, harmony or limiting yourself to a single kind of music.
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