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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Rec Grading Tweaks #2
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 9 2015, 10:04 AM
From time to time we need to review the REC grading standards - just like we did two years ago:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=48320
It's time again for instructors to get a little bit stricter with their grading. The goal with the REC grades is obviously not to make our students happy for the day, but rather have you become fantastic guitarists over time.
I am posting this in case some of you wonder where this change is coming from.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 9 2015, 02:37 PM
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=48320
It's time again for instructors to get a little bit stricter with their grading. The goal with the REC grades is obviously not to make our students happy for the day, but rather have you become fantastic guitarists over time.
I am posting this in case some of you wonder where this change is coming from.
Just a thought and excuse me if I'm interfering. Would it be a good idea to allow instructors to give half points? Sometimes you can get three 7s then improve but still only get three 7s because you're not quite an 8 and you need an average of 7.5 to pass. I 100% don't agree with false praise but I think it would be nice to see a "very nearly there" factor of you were only "nearly there" last time.
Cheers and sorry if I'm putting my nose in where it shouldn't be
Posted by: Tom51 Jun 9 2015, 03:25 PM
Hello Kris,
I am 100% with you. A REC level should be worth something! No question.
If I want to pass the tests for the drivers license it is the very same. But no one would expect a beginners driver to be as good as someone who has been driving for years. So a REC take from a part time beginner trying hard a lesson for many weeks will never ever get the level played by an highly sklilled talanted professinal guitar player (I should have simply said GREAT) like all our instructors are.
So that is just the view from the other side 
And I would not disrespect the value of an justified praise. It is a great kick in motivation for future challanges too.
Thanks much,
Tom
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 9 2015, 03:37 PM
I pretty much agree with both of you. Positive feedback and encouragement is a key factor to stay motivated, especially in the beginning.
I still think that the grades given need to follow general standards, in order for us not to devaluate the REC program. The grades given need to relate to the level of the lesson and not to the level of the student.
Having said this, I think the things you pointed out must clearly be expressed by the instructor in text. Ie "even though I can't give you passing grade on this third attempt - the amount of progress you have made is very impressive (...)"
Did I get you right?
Posted by: Tom51 Jun 9 2015, 03:45 PM
Yes, I would sign every word you said!
Posted by: Chris S. Jun 9 2015, 03:55 PM
I don't have as much REC experience as everyone else but one thing that I always noticed would be what Phil mentioned:
Where it is said that we have improved but the score remains the same.
Like take one was a 7, and then on take two someone would say "definitely better than the last take" but still given a 7.
Now I wouldn't want to be given an 8 and then pass a lesson I shouldn't have but I do agree that there should maybe be half points or something.
I'd rather be given a 6, that way when I post another take an show improvement I can at least be given a 7 - so although I didn't pass I can at least see that my score went higher.
I guess it's just a motivational thing.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 9 2015, 04:06 PM
I still think that the grades given need to follow general standards, in order for us not to devaluate the REC program. The grades given need to relate to the level of the lesson and not to the level of the student.
Having said this, I think the things you pointed out must clearly be expressed by the instructor in text. Ie "even though I can't give you passing grade on this third attempt - the amount of progress you have made is very impressive (...)"
Did I get you right?
Yes I agree completely. It just needs to be remembered, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or patronizing, that a student learning a level 3 lesson is never going to execute the lesson as good as the instructor.
Hey maybe that would be good, once a student has reached a level above 3, they have to select a previous REC and re play it to see how much they have improved and get re accessed.
Cheers
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jun 9 2015, 04:10 PM
Where it is said that we have improved but the score remains the same.
Like take one was a 7, and then on take two someone would say "definitely better than the last take" but still given a 7.
Now I wouldn't want to be given an 8 and then pass a lesson I shouldn't have but I do agree that there should maybe be half points or something.
I'd rather be given a 6, that way when I post another take an show improvement I can at least be given a 7 - so although I didn't pass I can at least see that my score went higher.
I guess it's just a motivational thing.
Exactly! and this is another reason why we need to tweak the grading. With the new standard we will use more the lower numbers and 7 will be given only when we feel that you are a very little step to pass. So in your example, you would get a 4/5, then a 6 and finally a 7 when you are just very close to pass.
The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.
Posted by: Chris S. Jun 9 2015, 04:23 PM
The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.
Exactly
like a 5/10 doesn't mean that the take was garbage or anything, it's just giving room for improvement!
And the ability to pay off instructors to give you a higher score will boost revenue for GMC!
Hahaha totally kidding
Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Jun 9 2015, 06:06 PM
I'm happy to read this announcement 
From my point of view if we compare our takes with the original takes made by instructors I don't think that anybody deserve to get 10. Nobody can't play identically as an instructor because then we would not be students
I have a question because I'm very curious. How will be graded this time a lesson which is played with all the details from original lesson made by instructor?
I will be honest and I will say that I care about what grade I get in the same way how I pay attention to learn and play every tiny detail from a lesson. In my mentoring, until to post my take in REC, if I forget/skip to play a detail from a lesson it means to remake again the take.
Don't get me wrong, if I make mistakes it's not a problem if I will get a low grade. My goal is just to make the things how perfectly I can, to pass all the lessons and start to learn new things
Posted by: Daeron Jun 9 2015, 07:02 PM
The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.
That is a good idea. I was sometimes wondering why instructors always used 7 to tell that the rec isn't good and 8 or more if it succeeded.
I understand why... it's difficult to be strict and it seems unfriendly. But we are here to make progress ! For me, the most important is your comments that are really helpful !
If one of my next RECs is bad, I hope that you'll use a 3,4 or 5. I'm sure that the comments will help more than the notes.
But I have a question. I think that you don't have the same way to grade if the lesson is of difficulty 1,2,3,4,... isn't it ? And when a beginner intents a lesson of diffulty 3 and another one more experienced intents the same lesson ? Is there a difference or you judge only on the lesson's difficulty ?
Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 9 2015, 08:44 PM
I was trying to write a post but...I would be too long I hope my not enough descent english will not make things to be misunderstood
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 9 2015, 08:59 PM
Who told you this?
In the short run (read weeks) you are right, but if we are speaking about months of serious practice it is doable.
Either way by giving the student a high grade after just a couple of weeks before you are close to nailing the take, instructors would be sending out the wrong message. They would in fact be confirming what you just said - ie 'you'll never get this down anyway'.
Hopefully you will forgive me if I sound a little harsh here, I am doing my best to get my point through
I think it should be a 10/10. In fact I don't even think all details must be down for that grade - as you said it's almost impossible (for pro players as well).
But the important stuff that affects the 'musical enjoyability' of the take must be there.
The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.
Exactly, this makes perfect sense to me!
Posted by: Chris S. Jun 9 2015, 09:01 PM
Many wise words, Darius!
I think you make some excellent points - especially the part of moving on to something else and coming back to it later - I feel like we've all done this whether with lessons or songs, and we are often surprised at how much improvement has been made just by taking some time away from it.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 9 2015, 09:07 PM
Thank you Darius,
That was a brilliant video. I actually found it very inspiring (even though I missed 12:03 of my timing practise 
).
Personally I have always thought that a fail is a 7 but could mean a "hidden" 4, and I always though that it was done for the "feel good factor" for the student
I would rather get a 1, then a month later a 2, then a 3 etc, for me this would be much better than getting a 7 for 7 months then getting an 8. It wouldn't feel like banging my head against a wall and thinking "what do I have to do to get that one extra point??????" 
It would, in my opinion, be more encouraging than persistent 7s
Much much better and thank you for taking the time to give such an eloquent explanation.
Cheers buddy
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 9 2015, 09:07 PM
I hope my not enough descent english will not make things to be misunderstood Excellent points here!
I def agree with the fact that because we are a community, it is harder to give a realistic grade. It can feel like insulting your mum.
And indeed excellent point about returning to an old lesson, that's how its always been for me. I bang my head against the wall and almost bleed to death without succeeding. When I come back to that thing in a couple of months it miraculously works!
It's great we get discuss this thoroughly. I think we can pause grading just for now until we have had a chance to digest and finish this discussion.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 9 2015, 09:09 PM
It's nice that you have been willing to discuss this with students. Thank you.
There is another side of the coin too. As a student I don't like to stop a lesson that an instructor has given me, I feel that I am letting them down so I stick at it even if my heart isn't into it just to show that I am serious and don't want to be like an impatient kid. I hope this makes sense.
Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 9 2015, 09:26 PM
IT's good to stick to the lesson for how long you can handle. I only meant you have to be prepare to sometimes decide to abandon it if you reach one point and can't go anyfurther no matter how much you practice
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 9 2015, 09:38 PM
I agree but sometimes it can be demoralising and if the music in the lesson isn't really your cup of tea it makes it harder to persist. I had it recently with Gab's Fu Manchu lesson. I just couldn't get past a certain bar and I actually found myself regressing. I felt awful asking Gab if I could try something else 
Thanks again.
Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 9 2015, 09:40 PM
Gab is a very wise person I do think he would complain on this - it's only about the arguments you point when trying to leave the lesson. Even if You won't finish it, it's sure something from it will profit in your playing Ask Monica
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 9 2015, 09:50 PM
Sorry, can you please explain this, I don't understand. Maybe something lost in translation
Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 9 2015, 10:44 PM
Sorry...tried to write too fast
I think he wouldn't complain on your idea to abandon a lesson as long, as your arguments would be valid
Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Jun 9 2015, 10:48 PM
@: Darek - Great video, You have right with all you said. Actually we had this discussion about REC section two weeks ago. I remember that I said to you that I would love even a separately REC section where I can put my takes for a real grading. Seems that my wish became true
It's a change for both parts students/instructors. I personally hardly wait to put my takes in REC
@: Phil I cried two weeks (I'm not kidding) because I had to quit at a lesson (Hybrid Blues) because I didn't was able to play very fast the last 10 seconds. I can't say in words how much I worked with Darek for that lesson and to learn every tiny detail. For me was a huge tragedy because was my dream to finish a 6 level lesson. I was disappointed by me and I will never forgive myself until I will not finish that lesson.
But... it was the moment to make a pause from that lesson because I was so stressed that I start to not be able to compose something. I have the luck that Darek knows me very well, stopped me and explained me how to see the things. He put me to work at another lesson.
Guess what, I realized that all I learned from that hard lesson are very good fixed in my mind and hands. Also I already apply those things in my normal playing. I swear, the lesson that I love very much and changed completely my playing is exactly the lesson that I wasn't able to finish it. I learned more technical stuff and I catch a huge confidence in playing things that in the past I thought there are very hard to play.
To work at Hybrid Blues was the best thing that I ever made even if i didn't finished the lesson
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 10 2015, 06:42 AM
I think he wouldn't complain on your idea to abandon a lesson as long, as your arguments would be valid
Ahh. Got it. Thanks
But... it was the moment to make a pause from that lesson because I was so stressed that I start to not be able to compose something. I have the luck that Darek knows me very well, stopped me and explained me how to see the things. He put me to work at another lesson.
Guess what, I realized that all I learned from that hard lesson are very good fixed in my mind and hands. Also I already apply those things in my normal playing. I swear, the lesson that I love very much and changed completely my playing is exactly the lesson that I wasn't able to finish it. I learned more technical stuff and I catch a huge confidence in playing things that in the past I thought there are very hard to play.
To work at Hybrid Blues was the best thing that I ever made even if i didn't finished the lesson
Thanks Monica,
That has inspired me to have more tenacity.
Cheers
Phil
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 10 2015, 08:21 AM
Thanks again.
My general thinking is to always prioritise what is fun / stimulating - in other I words I move on when I get bored with whatever I am practicing/learning. Because I know that as long as I spend time with the guitar, I will be progressing.
However there are many exceptions to this. And personally I get obsessed with things I don't master. So this actually makes it enjoyable for me to persist.
However if you are just starting out you may not realise the purpose of persisting with some uninspiring/boring exercises.
So my advice would be to play safe - and try to do a little bit of that kind of stuff - but always make make sure the majority of your practicing time is spent playing/practicing things you enjoy.
So to apply this thinking to the REC discussion, you could revisit old REC lessons once in a while (or maybe for 10-15 minutes before you start practicing a new lesson). However - banging your head against an old REC lesson which you are sick to death of - is not a fruitful thing to do IMO.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 10 2015, 08:56 AM
Agreed but imagine the satisfaction of going back to something you struggled with and finding it pretty simple. We don't really notice ourselves improving just as a child doesn't really notice themselves getting taller. If we played something with ease that used to be hard a few months ago, that would really show in real terms how much you have improved.
On your obsession thing, I too get obsessed and sometimes my time has run out and I've been trying to nail the same four bars for 90 minutes
Cheers
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 10 2015, 09:10 AM
Hehe and its worth it, because you learn so much more than just the licks. The timing, feel, execution, details (etc etc) - can be applied to anything you play onwards. That is why it is so rewarding to spend a lot of time with just a short section of music.
Posted by: Huargo Jun 10 2015, 02:13 PM
Hi!
Totally agree with this changes in the rec zone! I think rec program works if it's totally objective and stricted.
I had some rec takes aproved but not really nailed
Ok but let's gonna talk abut safe zones in guitar masterclass, Sometimes students don't wanna be grade, only share his Music and i see instructors making apointments to improve the Music but this can be really intimidating to beginers to share his music. I really wants to see lot of people sharing his Music here just for fun.
It's great to have feedback of a instructor but it shouldn't be necesary all the time, more studens interaction will be great!
Only and idea
Thanks
Posted by: Fran Jun 10 2015, 07:34 PM
I believe REC is all about challenging yourself and getting pro advice from our instructors. A failed lesson is only a "fail" if you learn nothing from your mistakes, as much as a "pass" would mean nothing if you didn't learn to achieve it.
Having said that, hope to see more and more REC takes than ever, no matter the grades, you will be getting better and better.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 10 2015, 08:45 PM
Just watched that video again, brilliant, puts me at ease about posting. Would it be annoying to judges if we posted a REC knowing that it's not good enough to pass but in order to get extra opinions to those from our mentor? I've always waited until my mentor (Gab, or before that Cosmin) told me to try it in the REC as it may pass. I would worry about offending my mentor if I posted without Gab saying to do it, I wouldn't want him to think I did not value his opinion. I hope this makes sense and you understand where I am coming from.
Cheers
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 10 2015, 09:08 PM
It's great to have feedback of a instructor but it shouldn't be necesary all the time, more studens interaction will be great!
Only and idea
Agreed - that's a different kind of feedback but its also needed. Do you have any suggestion on how we can get more students to submit their recordings (outside of REC board)?
Having said that, hope to see more and more REC takes than ever, no matter the grades, you will be getting better and better.
Wise words Fran, that is the whole purpose of REC. The grade is of little importance, its what you take with you that matters.
Cheers
I think it's up to the student to decide when to submit to REC, ie when you feel it will be beneficial for you. Perhaps you are stuck, feeling uninspired, need a second opinion etc. I don't think Gab would mind.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 10 2015, 09:19 PM
Don't get me wrong, nobody has ever told me NOT to post to REC, I've just posted and posted to my thread until they've eventually said "I think you should post to the REC"
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jun 11 2015, 01:20 PM
Hi guys! Interesting discussion here. About the REC grading, I've been thinking on a new approach in order to decide the grade that I'll give to the takes. Kris send me some old grading guidelines that included this topics:
1, Rhythm placement: Overall ability to play in rhythm and keep a steady tempo. This aspect should take into consideration the groove factor of certain lessons such as topics involving shuffle or swing type of rhythm.
2. Cleanness: The cleanness factor evaluates the student's ability to play something with clarity and precision. This is indicative of the overall level of playing as well as the amount of practice of this particular lesson
3. Feel: The feel factor determines if the student shows comfort in the chosen musical piece. Several factors are included in the feel criteria such as rhythm placement, posture and overall lesson execution.
4. Posture: Posture determines if the student is holding the instrument correctly and shows comfort while playing. This criteria should of course take into account the difficulty of the lesson.
5. Sound: The sound factor will grade the student's tone and ability to play a piece with a similar type of sound. This section will not give advantage to students with more expensive gear, it is more of a general way to see if you can chose an appropriate tone to the lesson you're working on.
Each of these topics mean 2/10 of the total grade, and I'll include: 0, 0.5, 1, 1.5 and 2. The final grade will be the sum of everything. If I get a "x.5" I'll go to the closer low number. For example if the sum of everything is 5.5, my grade will be 5.
I'll do this internally, I won't publish this method and individual concepts grades every time I evaluate a take but I wanted to share with you my new approach.
What do you think?
Posted by: MisterM Jun 11 2015, 01:51 PM
Hi GMC
I completely agree with this decision.
The grade should not be the objective.
Lessons can learn so much . It 'll be a shame to rush through , the note should not be the objective.
Sometimes some instructors are very severe on details and sometimes they are so kind .
Keep in mind the progress of the guitarist.
You should not make any difference between the GMC's subscriber .
Consider also that the lessons are sometimes underestimated ....
Some have a Level 4 are harder than 5 levels ...
Thank you to all the teachers for their time, their advice, their beautiful music and thank you for sharing ....
I love GMC
1, Rhythm placement: Overall ability to play in rhythm and keep a steady tempo. This aspect should take into consideration the groove factor of certain lessons such as topics involving shuffle or swing type of rhythm.
2. Cleanness: The cleanness factor evaluates the student's ability to play something with clarity and precision. This is indicative of the overall level of playing as well as the amount of practice of this particular lesson
3. Feel: The feel factor determines if the student shows comfort in the chosen musical piece. Several factors are included in the feel criteria such as rhythm placement, posture and overall lesson execution.
4. Posture: Posture determines if the student is holding the instrument correctly and shows comfort while playing. This criteria should of course take into account the difficulty of the lesson.
5. Sound: The sound factor will grade the student's tone and ability to play a piece with a similar type of sound. This section will not give advantage to students with more expensive gear, it is more of a general way to see if you can chose an appropriate tone to the lesson you're working on.
Each of these topics mean 2/10 of the total grade, and I'll include: 0, 0.5, 1, 1.5 and 2. The final grade will be the sum of everything. If I get a "x.5" I'll go to the closer low number. For example if the sum of everything is 5.5, my grade will be 5.
I'll do this internally, I won't publish this method and individual concepts grades every time I evaluate a take but I wanted to share with you my new approach.
What do you think?
Hi Gab, thank you for this clear language.
Great concept
All these elements together which is mportant in serious take.
Why not show on the vote board they 5 elements with their grade ?
This concept should be a new basis for all instructors.
Sometimes the instructors explain their rating .
It is not easy to understand English because the instructors are from various countries
and it is not always correct in expression.
The 5 elements help us understand where we are good or less good.....
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 11 2015, 02:42 PM
I think the five elements and the total being displayed is a superb idea
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jun 11 2015, 02:57 PM
Great concept
All these elements together which is mportant in serious take.
Why not show on the vote board they 5 elements with their grade ?
This concept should be a new basis for all instructors.
Sometimes the instructors explain their rating .
It is not easy to understand English because the instructors are from various countries
and it is not always correct in expression.
The 5 elements help us understand where we are good or less good.....
yes, the grade will include comments as always with feedback to explain which elements that need work to improve the take and reach a higher grade, and ideas on how to work them.
Posted by: Annemie Jun 11 2015, 05:13 PM
Hi Guys, I think the rec greading tweaks are a good idea. It makes the grading more clear and if it includes the five elements + grading it makes it even more clear
Posted by: Fran Jun 11 2015, 08:14 PM
If you wish to post a REC take, then just go ahead and do it!
Guitar should be fun, learning should be fun.
If REC makes you happy, whatever the reason, go for it (showing your playing, climbing the ladders, getting instructors feedback...)
You have nothing to lose and lots to learn. Not just playing but also about tone, video editing etc.
Have FUN.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 11 2015, 08:29 PM
Great, thanks for that, as I said to Gab in my personal thread, I thought REC was purely like an exam, you only entered if you thought you had a chance of passing. Now I realise it is there for assessment. I will start posting more regularly, so long as I have the whole piece under my fingers in one way or another. I don't care if I get a 1, I'll just try for a 2, then a 3 etc etc etc
Thanks everyone, I feel liberated and inspired.
Let's do this
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jun 12 2015, 12:35 PM
Hello everyone after another long break of mine!
As a "veteran" of GMC I remember the old REC grading system, and would like to share my thoughts...
I didn't like the old system because:
I feel that learning how to play the lesson is many times more valuable and difficult than being or not being relaxed, and choosing an appropriate tone or not. Of course good posture is important, and playing stoner rock with a jazz tone makes no sense, but accurately playing the lesson with a satisfactory technique is on a wholly different level of importance IMHO. When the old system worked, the overall level of lessons that passed was lower than it is now, because it was "easy" to get good grades for tone, posture/being relaxed, so it counterbalanced the poorer grades for technique:/ I remember that the change from the old grading system to a new one, resulted in many lessons that didn't pass, and students soon started to present a higher level of preparation before posting a take.
I don't know what is the best solution, also because it depends on the people involved. For example I always feel down when I don't pass, and I don't think that it gives any additional motivation to me. Maybe because I practice one lesson for too long so when I post a REC take I "hope" to move on to new stuff to practice, but when I fail I am "sentenced" to additional practice of a lesson I am already too familiar with.
What would be ideal for me is as much constructive criticism as possible in REC comments, also with maybe links to lessons that could help with overcoming my problems, but with quite a "friendly" grading system. For me "winning" a REC take is motivating to practice another lesson and aim to "win" again, while "losing" strengthens my REC anxiety and depressive thinking 
After all no matter what the grades are, it is all left to the student to use the constructive criticism he received, and it is connected with his personality, that we don't have an influence on.
With a more strict grading, maybe the passmark of 7.5 should be reconsidered? Like in school 51% most of the time is a pass. So while the student gets not so great grades, like 5.5 or 6.0, and those grades are telling the student that he still has much place for improvement, it still is a positive grade, not a "negative" grade that basically means - the take didn't pass, you failed to pass.
Maybe we could also consider opening the REC forum to everyone, and instead of voting, admin would have to read the instructor comments to check what grade they give (so they would have to write it in a post instead of the current way of grading). That way more people could comment and contribute.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 12 2015, 01:00 PM
As a "veteran" of GMC I remember the old REC grading system, and would like to share my thoughts...
I didn't like the old system because:
I feel that learning how to play the lesson is many times more valuable and difficult than being or not being relaxed, and choosing an appropriate tone or not. Of course good posture is important, and playing stoner rock with a jazz tone makes no sense, but accurately playing the lesson with a satisfactory technique is on a wholly different level of importance IMHO. When the old system worked, the overall level of lessons that passed was lower than it is now, because it was "easy" to get good grades for tone, posture/being relaxed, so it counterbalanced the poorer grades for technique:/ I remember that the change from the old grading system to a new one, resulted in many lessons that didn't pass, and students soon started to present a higher level of preparation before posting a take.
I don't know what is the best solution, also because it depends on the people involved. For example I always feel down when I don't pass, and I don't think that it gives any additional motivation to me. Maybe because I practice one lesson for too long so when I post a REC take I "hope" to move on to new stuff to practice, but when I fail I am "sentenced" to additional practice of a lesson I am already too familiar with.
What would be ideal for me is as much constructive criticism as possible in REC comments, also with maybe links to lessons that could help with overcoming my problems, but with quite a "friendly" grading system. For me "winning" a REC take is motivating to practice another lesson and aim to "win" again, while "losing" strengthens my REC anxiety and depressive thinking
After all no matter what the grades are, it is all left to the student to use the constructive criticism he received, and it is connected with his personality, that we don't have an influence on.
With a more strict grading, maybe the passmark of 7.5 should be reconsidered? Like in school 51% most of the time is a pass. So while the student gets not so great grades, like 5.5 or 6.0, and those grades are telling the student that he still has much place for improvement, it still is a positive grade, not a "negative" grade that basically means - the take didn't pass, you failed to pass.
Maybe we could also consider opening the REC forum to everyone, and instead of voting, admin would have to read the instructor comments to check what grade they give (so they would have to write it in a post instead of the current way of grading). That way more people could comment and contribute.
Very interesting. Maybe there should be a grading system rather than pass or fail. D pass = 5 points, C = 6, B = 7, A = 8 A+ =9, A* =10. It could be said that you can move on to another lesson with a pass BUT not recommended until you get a B. I put the A at 8 because in Darius's video he said 8 is very very good, 9 and 10 are very special.
Is all food for thought for the admin
Cheers
Phil
Posted by: Tom51 Jun 12 2015, 03:31 PM
fully agree with you Marek and Phil. After you have been working at a lesson at your level (!) for a long time (!) it is very frustrating if you do not pass and will not add any motivation. At least not in my case.
E.g. I have been working on 5 string barre chord lesson for 2 month by next weekend. I thing I can record a decent take now but I do not know if that will pass under the new requirements. So I will NOT post it at REC. The feedback for me as a beginner that worked hard 30min/day over 2 month on an adequate lesson (level2) and cannot get it done would be devastating.
It would tell me there is something VERY wrong, either with the lesson, my learning process or me. And I would think its me as the lesson and my mentoring are great.
Also the expectation " to be as good as the instructor" that was shown here in the thread is not understandable for me.
REC is not for REC itself - its for progress of students.
Posted by: yoncopin Jun 12 2015, 03:39 PM
I really like the REC program, it's one of my favorite parts of GMC. I've submitted takes which, after reading the instructor's feedback, shouldn't have passed. When I submitted them I may have thought they were great (as Darius said), but it took someone with more experience to show me the details I missed. I can only speak for myself, but my feelings would not be hurt to hear constructive and supportive feedback despite a failing grade.
The only issue I see with that is that there is vibrato in virtually every lesson, and as Darius said, it takes a LONG time to develop. Will the result be that beginner/intermediate players will never be able to achieve a passing grade because of underdeveloped vibrato?
I've mostly used the REC system as a milestone to help me decide when to "move on". A take may have issues, but when I've mastered it to the point that I should work on material that is more challenging overall. It doesn't seem productive to continue with a lesson which has just one sticking point when I can approach fresh material which has multiple areas to improve. I've struggled with recognizing that moment in the past, but I'm not sure what the answer is because I'm here to learn HOW to learn the guitar as much as a specific technique, etc...
I'd also find it really valuable for future lessons to have a bit more detail about the tones used. For example, a gear list isn't really that useful. I use amp modelling so for me amp head, cabinet, mic placement, EQ settings, and effects chain would be very useful. It would help me develop my ear for tones if I could match what I'm listening to with at least a brief description.
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 12 2015, 11:03 PM
As a "veteran" of GMC I remember the old REC grading system, and would like to share my thoughts...
I didn't like the old system because:
I feel that learning how to play the lesson is many times more valuable and difficult than being or not being relaxed, and choosing an appropriate tone or not. Of course good posture is important, and playing stoner rock with a jazz tone makes no sense, but accurately playing the lesson with a satisfactory technique is on a wholly different level of importance IMHO. When the old system worked, the overall level of lessons that passed was lower than it is now, because it was "easy" to get good grades for tone, posture/being relaxed, so it counterbalanced the poorer grades for technique:/ I remember that the change from the old grading system to a new one, resulted in many lessons that didn't pass, and students soon started to present a higher level of preparation before posting a take.
I don't know what is the best solution, also because it depends on the people involved. For example I always feel down when I don't pass, and I don't think that it gives any additional motivation to me. Maybe because I practice one lesson for too long so when I post a REC take I "hope" to move on to new stuff to practice, but when I fail I am "sentenced" to additional practice of a lesson I am already too familiar with.
What would be ideal for me is as much constructive criticism as possible in REC comments, also with maybe links to lessons that could help with overcoming my problems, but with quite a "friendly" grading system. For me "winning" a REC take is motivating to practice another lesson and aim to "win" again, while "losing" strengthens my REC anxiety and depressive thinking
After all no matter what the grades are, it is all left to the student to use the constructive criticism he received, and it is connected with his personality, that we don't have an influence on.
With a more strict grading, maybe the passmark of 7.5 should be reconsidered? Like in school 51% most of the time is a pass. So while the student gets not so great grades, like 5.5 or 6.0, and those grades are telling the student that he still has much place for improvement, it still is a positive grade, not a "negative" grade that basically means - the take didn't pass, you failed to pass.
Maybe we could also consider opening the REC forum to everyone, and instead of voting, admin would have to read the instructor comments to check what grade they give (so they would have to write it in a post instead of the current way of grading). That way more people could comment and contribute.
Marek this is excellent feedback, some key points here are:
* failing grades don't encourage
* Building a list of passing REC takes does encourage
After all the goal is both to guide/help you towards a great take, but also to help you remain inspired every day (that's the only way to spend a lot of time with the instrument).
What do other think about this?
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 12 2015, 11:06 PM
* failing grades don't encourage
* Building a list of passing lessons does encourage
After all the goal is both to guide/help you towards a great take, but also to help you remain inspired every day (that's the only way to spend a lot of time with the instrument).
What do other think about this?
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=54491&view=findpost&p=713125
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 12 2015, 11:17 PM
Yes that is good feedback. One option is also to somehow reflect the grade level (D,C,B etc) in the badge level. Although I don't think complicating things is a good idea (and the badge level system seems to be working pretty well).
The more opinions we get, the easier it is to actually make an informed change! After all, it's been a long time since instructors were beginners. Lowering the passmark level sounds cool to me - but it would be cool to hear what others think.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 12 2015, 11:23 PM
Lowering the pass grade is good but it needs to be a low level pass imho. As long as it is a pass at a low level it will be still motivational to the student, rather than a consistent 7
Edit:
Don't know what I meant here. To much beer and wine when I posted this
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 12 2015, 11:31 PM
Ok that's interesting - that's probably how I function as well. But something tells me it's not the case for a majority of people. The word "fail" has a negative vibe which is hard to ignore.
E.g. I have been working on 5 string barre chord lesson for 2 month by next weekend. I thing I can record a decent take now but I do not know if that will pass under the new requirements. So I will NOT post it at REC. The feedback for me as a beginner that worked hard 30min/day over 2 month on an adequate lesson (level2) and cannot get it done would be devastating.
It would tell me there is something VERY wrong, either with the lesson, my learning process or me. And I would think its me as the lesson and my mentoring are great.
OK this is very good feedback, thanks.
We certainly don't want the passmark level to prevent you from submitting a REC and getting feedback. Because we all know that you will progress faster if you do get feedback.
So if this is the case for many people, there is a flaw in REC that needs fixing.
Posted by: bleez Jun 13 2015, 01:07 AM
Its quite a complicated subject when you start breaking it down! probably impossible to get a perfect set of rules.
I dont think it should be too easy to get a passing grade though. It would kinda devalue the process.
I totally appreciate the motivation that a pass will give but I wouldnt like to get a 'pass' if it was just to keep me motivated.
you dont HAVE to submit a rec take to get feedback on a lesson. Im sure any instructor would check out a take and give you a 'mock' rec take evaluation if you asked.
Its tough putting a number on it. Its probably most common ( from what Ive seen ) that we have a 7 for a fail and an 8 or 9 for a pass. We essentially use just a few numbers for grades. Maybe its worth simply having a pass or fail, maybe a 'distinction' type of pass for a really nailed lesson. The comments from the instructors are of more value than the grade.
The subject of tones is an interesting one as well. If you are being judged on the ability to mimic the instructors tone then that is quite a task. Most lessons dont really go into any depth about how to achieve the tone and tbh I dont even know if it would be possible to do anyway. I done the Peter Green lesson a while back, there's no way Im dialling in a tone like Stehane gets, I just dont have the touch, gear or knowledge but it was pointed out in the rec comments that although I didnt match the tone I managed to get a decent sound that fitted with the backing and the overall style.... I think that type of approach is good. It cuts you a little slack without allowing for unsuitable overall tones.
For the record, Tom, I think you are being too hard on yourself. 2 months IMO isnt long at all. Ive taken way longer to get a lesson to rec level.... like WAY longer! Dont sweat on that one mate
Posted by: Chris S. Jun 14 2015, 12:47 AM
I think bleez made a great point - instead of putting a number on it, maybe it should just be as simple as pass or fail (maybe a better word than fail?).
If you didn't make the cut, a clear explanation of what needs to be improved in order to pass.
Everyone seems to be all over the place on this, it will be interesting to see the end result
EDIT:
Because putting a number or letter on a take can be difficult - and you may end up giving someone a 5 for a specific reason, yet another person a 4.
I think a simple pass or fail takes most of the inconsistency away.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 14 2015, 06:05 PM
The thing with just a pass or fail is that you don't see your progress, you can't see yourself getting closer. If the instructors are going to start using 1 2 3 4 etc I will definitely post rec takes more often purely for assessment and opinions of other instructors as well as Gab. I think that getting a 1 is fine, you can strive for a 2 within a few weeks and I actually think having more smaller achievements will, for me anyway, be more including and encouraging
Posted by: bleez Jun 14 2015, 06:55 PM
I do see your point, phil. My own feeling towards the numbers are that they are arbitrary. what would the difference between grade 2 and grade 3 really be? not very much I wouldnt have thought. All the instructor feedback from the previous attempt would be repeated. If I scored a 3, I wouldnt really be looking for a 4 on my next attempt. I dont think its worth doing 10 rec takes of a single lesson. Its not something I would do but thats just me.
I failed one of my recent takes but I have enough feedback to know exactly where I screwed it up, Im not going to submit another take until I feel Ive addressed all those areas.
Is it worth putting a number on your failure
I' feel a bit down when I fail a rec take but will I feel worse knowing I failed with a 3! But then again, what is the actual purpose of the REC? if its to chart progress through a lesson then maybe all the grades will be best. Ive always thought of it much the same as yoncopin mentioned, more of a milestone to prove to myself that I have learned a lesson to a good level and I can move on.
Posted by: Phil66 Jun 14 2015, 07:03 PM
I can see your point too Scott. The thing is we can both use it how we want. You can submit a take when you think it's ready to pass, or when your mentor thinks it is, you will then probably get at least a 7, I can submit a take when I have it under my fingers at full tempo even though I know it might only get a 3 so that I can get advice on how to improve from more than one source. Some instructors spot things others miss or, have a different take on what to do to improve
Posted by: Fran Jun 15 2015, 04:35 PM
I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect time to post a REC take, just use REc as you see fit.
Then again if you post a take that you suspect is not really good, maybe be realistic and expect to fail and get some nice input from the instructors to play it better.
These years 7.5 has been the pass grade because less than 5 was considered "too many mistakes", and 5-7.5 was getting there but not enough to consider it played well enough. Then from 7.5-10 the lesson take was good enough, and the higher the better, of course
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jun 17 2015, 04:20 PM
From my point of view, the grade is just a reference to monitor your progress. The most important thing of REC is the feedback that you receive from different instructors so even when you know it won't pass it's very recommendable to share it there and receive the necessary feedback to know how to continue, which things you are doing right or wrong.
It's true that you can also open a new thread to receive feedback, but REC is more organized, and you are totally sure that will receive different points of views and the grade to check how much room to improvements is and also to check the progress.
This new adjustment helps us to make a better use of the 1 to 10 grades, to let you monitor your progress even clearer.
I don't think that a student should feel frustrated of getting a 2, then a 3, then a 4... this means progress!
However if you get, 3, then another 3, then another 3. Something must be wrong with your practice, and you definitely need to contact us. The same is applicable to other grades, if you keep on the same grade and it's low, you must be doing something wrong, or misunderstanding the feedback.
Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 17 2015, 07:18 PM
Marek - At this moment we all try to "recalibarte" to a new grading system. I my honest opinion You've been slightly hurted with latest grades comparing to the work You did. Tone suggestion was just a suggestion (Yes I know You meant my feedback on your take). Tone suggestion did not affect the grade that much. There is a huge difference bettwen some obvious tone mistakes - hum, over fx-ed, way too much gain for the lesson type etc. Some of those aspects take away essential purpose of the lesson like...How to learn to hit like a hulk to get your guitar scream on the crunch tone. Using hi-gain we loose the basic idea of being at "I have to hit hard" to make it sound proper. In Your case tone type was matched properly. My suggestion was only on slightly different balance between the frequencies, so it would be clearer in the mix and have less of "trash frequencies" (the ones that doesn bring anything constructive to the tone and take awas some space of other instruments in the mix)
Bleez - noby said about sounding exactly like instructor. There is no purpose in this. IT's only about the basic tone issues mentioned in response to Marek (above)
When speaking of grading system chnages we (instructors) already new the challenge of those of You who wants to be judged the "rough way" and those who need pass to stay motivaed to further practice. Unfortunately it will always bee the wasy that one of those sides will be not completely satisfied. Od course we'll be calibarint that system (that's the purpose of thise topic) but like some of You already noticed - it's almost impossible to figure out something quite satisfying for everyone.
Anyway a lot of You make a great job here. I think there would be nothing wrong to ask instructors in PM about some doubts onb rec grading of particular take.
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jun 17 2015, 07:28 PM
Darius, my post is one day older than the feedback that I recieved from instructors, so I wrote it before! The tone comment was connected with the older system of grading on GMC. Check for example this take of mine posted 6 years ago (holy crap so long ago...)
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=28019
There was "sound" and "posture" that affected the overall grade in a big way, and in consequence a medicore take could pass, because of nice tone/posture.
EDIT: concerning my latest REC uploads, yes I hoped for a bit higher grades, and feel a bit down about getting 7.3 -> not passing by such a small margin. But on the other hand I wasn't too happy with these takes myself, so it's not that big of a deal. I hope to "amaze" all of you in the following week, with a take of a different lesson
Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 17 2015, 07:54 PM
Got it! Thanx for the clearance I didn't suspect You're going that far to the past of REC
Posted by: Fran Jun 18 2015, 06:06 PM
Please admins & instructors, let me know when I can re-start closing and wiki-ing those REC takes, as you know I'm always keping an eye on the REC board
Posted by: Fran Jun 20 2015, 11:07 AM
BumP!
Keep those RECs coming!
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jun 20 2015, 11:12 AM
Any idea when the "new system" will be revealed?
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 20 2015, 07:01 PM
Quick update: To decide where the possible new passing limit should be, we'd like to see some more REC takes! (Graded with the stricter approach)
Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jun 20 2015, 07:14 PM
I won't be able to record anything until Thursday and it will still be faster than I planed...But it is the right choice to make this "test".
Posted by: Darius Wave Jul 3 2015, 12:37 PM
Hmm to be honest I was already judging with the new system...hope it's not too early
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 3 2015, 02:04 PM
You're just the tough teacher, Darius!
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