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Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 04:40 PM

Soon I'm going to get my new Parker PM-20 (Mahogany body, bubinga top, mahogany neck and ebony fretboard) and when I do, I plan to change the Parker pickups for something good.

At the moment I'm looking at these combinations.

Bridge: PAF Pro
Neck: Dimarzio Air Norton

Bridge: Seymour Duncan Custom
Neck: Seymour Duncan Jazz

Bridge: PAF Pro
Neck: Seymour Duncan Jazz

I'm looking for versatile pickups, that are decent for Metal, Rock, Jazz, Fusion, Blues etc, that can do coil tapping. I want a nice fat, warm tone in the neck, and a screamingtone with good harmonics in the bridge. I'm prepared to sacrifice some of these tones though for more versatility. I saw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T-jkRXo53M, and the Dimarzios seemed better for distortion and metal, while the SDs seemed better for clean sounds, so I'm not sure which to get.

Also the PAF 36th Anniversary pickup is "Vintage Output". Does this really mean anything? Does it just mean I'll have to roll the drive control a bit further than normal, or will it actually not sound good for metal.

Anyway if you have any experience with these pickups, SDs or dimarzios, or just pickups in general, then I'd be very interested to hear what you think I should get. Also if you have any different suggestions for pickups I'd like to hear them too. Finally I'd like to know if the "output" of a pickup actually makes a big difference.

Matt

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 22 2009, 04:44 PM

Before recommending ANY pickups I need to know the woods that your Parker is made of...

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 04:46 PM

Mahogany body, bubinga top, mahogany neck and ebony fretboard.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 22 2009, 04:50 PM

Neck? Also mahagony?

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 04:53 PM

Yeh

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 22 2009, 05:25 PM

Output: A pickup with low output will not drive an amp on it's own, they have a better clean tone and a lot more dynamic to picking but you have to have an amp with A LOT of gain to get them to a high gain rock or metal sound. Low output pickups tend to not get a long with a high gain sound too well (fuzzy or muddy tone on high gain) and they tend to feedback a lot.

High output means that the pickup drives the amps distortionon it's own, making it easier to get some Metal/rock tones but at the same time making it more difficult to get a clean tone. Those pickups will sound best with a lot of overdrive and they handle high gain better but they will sound too harsh for most other styles.

A medium output pickup would be best as you try to cover a lot of genres (medium output alnico or low output ceramic) but it is up to personal preferance. I like high output pickups for myself and I roll down the volume on the guitar to achieve lower gain tones, others prefer vintage low output humbuckers and add pedals in front of their amps to get high gain tones...



Then the JB might sound a little bit too dark but I guess it'll still work as the Parker is a very thin guitar...

The JB is a great allrounder, another candidate would be a Sh-5 Custom, it's a PAF on steroids with a low powered ceramic magnet. The Sh-5 makes a great allrounder too but it's sounds diffrent to the SH-4 (I think Emir has the Sh-5 in his guitar).

If you stay with SD then pair one of those with a Jazz Neck for maximum versatility, the 59 isn't really a great sounding pickup...

If you choose DiMarzios then go for a Paf Pro Set, they are all time classics capable of almost any style!

Finally if you have some more cash to spend then go for Bareknuckle pickups! They are handmade in the UK and therefore more expensive but also a WHOLE LOT better than factory made pups... A Black Dog bridge and Mule Neck pickup from Bareknuckle would make a great versatile match (Joe Kataldo has this set in his signature guitar)

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 06:07 PM

Something I forgot to mention. I need coil-tapping. Can all those pickups you mention do coil-tapping?

Posted by: Marc_Maiden Jul 22 2009, 06:08 PM

the first combo you said is the one id go for

the PAF is like a gibson humbucker, the sound will be really nice and warm, and sounds great distorted or over driven

The air norton is great too...its used by many professionals ..



im going to agree with Zack, the Duncan JB is a little dark, i dont like the sound of it in my guitars ash body.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 06:20 PM

And you don't think that because it's low output it will sound "muddy" with lots of distortion like Zakk said it might.

Ok now I'm considering this:

Bridge: Dimarzio PAF Pro
Neck: Dimarzio Air Norton
or
Bridge: SD Duncan Custom
Neck: SD Jazz

I'm still looking into Bareknuckle pickups.

Also, is there any reason not to have say a Dimarzio in the bridge and an SD in the neck?

Posted by: Marc_Maiden Jul 22 2009, 06:39 PM

ive been using lower output stuff to play metal all the time, i dont get muddy at all...my favorite pick up ive ever used is the PAF because it is so versatile...when played clean it almost sounds like a neck pick up, but depending on how you EQ, it will sound fine distorted

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 06:43 PM

What pickups do you use?

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 22 2009, 07:07 PM

Pafs are not really low output...

When I speak about low output I mean pickups with less than 10k resistance like for example SD Alnico II pickups, real vintage style pus. Most Paf pickups like the Paf PRo or the Sh-5 are vintage pafs on steroids with medium output. From 10k to 17k pickups are medium output and everything with 17k and more is commonly considered High Output (although DC resistance isn't the only criteria)

If you want to coilsplit your pickups then look at then conductors the pickups come with. If the Pickups has only a braided 2 conductor then coilsplitting is impossible, you need multiple conductor cables to wire a pickup to coilsplit, mostly 4 or 5 conductor cables with a colorcode...

(all the pu's I mentioned are available as four conductors)

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 07:11 PM

The PAF pro and the PAF 36th anniversary are both below 10K though (8.6 and 8.4).

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 22 2009, 07:44 PM

As I said, DV resistance is only one thing that determines the output of a pickups... there can be pickups with more than 20k in resistance but their output might be lower than any vintage pickup.

If you would have the paf36th(vintage style) right next to a guitar with a PAF Pro you would really hear the diffrence even though the DC resistance is almost the same, the Paf Pro would be hotter. Just take a look at the DiMarzio page, the Pafpro is listed under medium while the 36th is listed under Low output.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 22 2009, 07:47 PM

Ok, this might be a stupid question, but what is "PAF"?

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 22 2009, 07:52 PM

One of the first Gibson Humbuckers ever (Les Paul model) was kind of a blueprint for rock/blues humbuckers. The humbucker didn't really have a name it was just the Gibson Les Paul Humbucker but it had a little sticker on the back saying P.A.F (patend applied for)^^

So basicly that sticker just said that this humbucker is copyright protected but it also became it's name^^

Paf pickups are generally humbuckers that resemble the tone and winding of that legendary pickup, they appear in very diffrent output levels but they generally stand for that Led Zepplin like rock tone...

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 10:44 AM

So is there any reason not to put a Dimarzio PAF Pro in the bridge, and a SD Jazz in the neck, or should mixing pickups be avoided?

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 01:14 PM

Sorry for bumping like this,
you might as well write an email to http://www.stanhinesleypickups.com/,
tell him what guitar (wood) do you have
and what kind of tone you would like,
Stan can even wound custom ones for you.

I have his pickups on my custom
(have them on Axis as well but I don't play Axis that much)
and I'm more than satisfied,
hot, high output, great dynamic range etc.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 01:31 PM

I forgot about Stan Hinesley. I'll give him an email and see what I can find about his pickups.

Also from what I've heard of them Stan's pickups sound sort of soft, and don't have a hard edge. This does sound good in its own way but it's not really my thing. Is this just peoples amp setting or do they actually sound like that?

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 01:36 PM

Hmm, not sure what do you mean by soft,
mine are surely NOT soft unless I play softly
which explains wide dynamic range.
And yeah, you can shape your tone A LOT nowdays using amp, EQs, compressor and other units.

Now, I'm not sure what have you heard
but if you would like to explain me what is "your thing"
then I might record something for you in that direction.
Hard edge, you mean less attack or?

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 01:52 PM

Well on all the sound clips on his website, and on your lessons, there is no edge to the tone. It sounds like there's a lot of mids and not much treble. This sounds good for leads but for rhythm it just doesn't have the edge I want. I know I can shape the sound with EQ, but I don't want to be fighting with my pickups to get good tone.

I'm not really sure myself what "my thing" is, but I'll and explain it. I want a bridge pickup that has plenty of mids, so it sort of screams, but not one with not much treble, like the Stan Hinesely ones sound to me. I think Dimarzio PAF pro is the best example of what I want in a bridge pickup. It's what I'm planning on getting atm. For neck I want a really round, fat tone. I can't really comment on this as nearly all Stan's humbuckers that aren't meant for bridge don't have sound clips.

Anyway I've emailed him so I'll see what he recommends. I'd rather support a smaller business like his more than a giant like Dimarzio or SD, so if you think I'm wrong about his pickups I'd like to hear it.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jul 23 2009, 01:57 PM

I'll suggest, nailbomb bridge and Cold Sweat Neck from bareknucle, screaming fusion and metal bridge with fat and warm jazzy neck, that sings with high gain distortion too, I've also wired them with an on-off-on switch to split inner coils-humbuckers-outher coils, the single coil sounds are amazing

in this clip you can here all the sounds it can produce apart from bridge full humbacker

 Pop_Ballad_Demo___Joe_Kataldo.mp3 ( 1.23MB ) : 232


bridge humbacker splitted to single

 Drop_Rock_Collab.mp3 ( 358.04K ) : 210


for full humbacker check any of my lessons where I use the music man

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 02:04 PM

Can I just ask, are bareknuckle pickups meant to be metal pickups, or is it just the names that are metal.

He recommended me Rogue in bridge, and scorpion or zen in the neck. I like the sound of his Rogue so I might get that but the scorpion and the zen both sound to smooth for what I want for the neck.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 02:04 PM

Here's the thing Matt,
no matter what gear you use you'll ALWAYS shape your tone
using EQs, some players like more midds for better cut through the mix
but those midds you hear are most likely not midds from pickups.
To get complete overwiev or comparation between pickups
you would have to use same guitar on same amp
with same EQ settings and then you could eventually
realize the difference or character of pickups.
Everything else that you hear on recordings are not pickup only,
there are too many factors that are dealing with the tone.

And is think of trebs by talking about hard edge
than I assure you, these pickups have tons of trebs,
it's just that I'm not huge fan of trebs all the time
and so I cut them a bit on EQ.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jul 23 2009, 02:05 PM

absolutely not, the names really saying not too much, check the clip and ask tim mills itself from bare knuckle, he will answer you in a couple of days, I'm adding more clips to that post

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 02:06 PM

Do you have those pickups in your signature mayones guitar?

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 23 2009, 02:07 PM

As for your question if mixing pickups from diffrent makers is to avoid: Certainly not!

You can mix brands if you want to, it can give you a great range of tones. One thing you have to look out for is pickup matching because the neck position is louder than the bridge: Your bridge pickup must have a higher output than the neck or otherwise you will have a big diffrence in volume between your two pickups. This is something that SD is not doing very good (the sh-1 and sh-2 neck pickups have a very low output but they are often combined with higher output pickups like the sh-6, resulting in a loudness diffrence between both pickups)

As for Stan Hinsley pickups, I am sure they have plenty of edge and attack in their sound it's just Muris smooth playing and maybe his recording device giving you a false impression, after all they are custom pickups like the bareknuckles...

Now that you described the tone that you want a bit better I might suggest you a Bareknuckle Nailbomb bridge and cold sweat Neck pickup, The nailbomb is as hot as a JB but with a lot of mids, great for everything from metal to blues with a great lead tone, and the Cold sweat neck pickup matches output-wise and gives you a very thick and warm neck tone (great cleans aswell). I have that set aswell and I love it!

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 02:08 PM

I can't really afford bareknuckles at the moment, but I'll keep them in mind if I upgrade my pickups in the future.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jul 23 2009, 02:10 PM

In my mayones I've black dog bridge (like a gibson paf but hotter) and the mule neck (original gibson PAF)

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 02:13 PM

Ok, I've narrowed my choice down. What combination do you think is best out of these?

Bridge: Dimarzio PAF Pro
Neck: Seymour Duncan Jazz

Bridge: Stan Hinesley Rogue
Neck: Seymour Duncan Jazz

Bridge: Stan Hinesely Rogue
Neck: Dimarzio Breed Neck

(considering they are £60 more expensive)
Bridge: Bareknuckle Nailbomb
Neck: Bareknuckle Cold Sweat

Or can you think of a a better combination of the pickups above.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 23 2009, 03:17 PM

Paf Pro and Jazz might work but I think a Paf Pro set would sound better matching

Rogue and Jazz will work

Rogue and Breed won't work at all, the breed has WAY to much output so it would be a lot louder than the rogue

Nailbomb and Coldsweat work really well although they are from diffrent sets (Tim at BKP will wind them to match each other)

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 03:54 PM

Would Dimarzio Air Norton work?

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 23 2009, 03:59 PM

I guess although I think it would be better to ask Stan for a neck pickups with more edge (because you said the ones he mentioned were too smooth). Mixing and matching pickups from diffrent brands that you never heard and played yourself might result in in a horrible sounding combination...

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 04:14 PM

I think Stan's pickups are great for lead, but they don't sound good for rhythm imo. And after reading a few reviews i think I'm not the only one.

Muris if you see this would you be able to do me a favour? Could you record a sound clip of some heavy riffing with your rogue humbucker, but with quite a high bass and scooped mids, and enough treble to give the sound some edge?

Btw thanks for all your help guys, it's been very useful.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 04:15 PM

Matt that's nonsense I'm afraid,
I do A LOT of pro work with my guitar, recording session, gigs etc
and I can get almost any type of sound that I want,
rhythm sounds included of course.
Bare in mind, it's not just pickups that gives you the tone,
your hands have a great role as well,
the way you pick, the way you fret etc.

Now, I would like to see those reviews,
must be some uber experienced players who wrote them, no offense.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 04:21 PM

If you say it is good for heavy rhythm playing, then I'll believe you.

And if you want to know the reviews were form harmony central and they say. "Not well-suited for thick, chunky rhythm/chording, it's still good, but the somewhat subdued bass compliments melody rather than rhythm"
"Still not going to get a heavy bass response for "supreme" chording/rhythms"

Actually now I look that was just one review, and the rest say it's great so I think I'll get that for the bridge. If it doesn't do riffing well I've still got my Ibanez.

For the neck I'm not sure.

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jul 23 2009, 04:31 PM

Everybody has a diffrent opinion on a good rythm sound, some like it ultra thight and responsive, others like it clear and defined and some others might want a smoother sound...

After all the pickups are just a small part of your sound, guitarconstruction, woods, your amp and finally your own playing make the biggest part of your sound. A great player can get a better sound out of crappy equipment than a beginner with pro equip!

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 04:31 PM

Matt, guitar is complex instrument
and lead playing shouldn't be much separated
from rhythm playing.
With more experience you'll learn how to handle
both using the same sound when needed.
My point is, would be wrong to expect from pickups
to fix all eventual sound issues that you might have atm,
pickups ARE important but player is even more important.
One other thing, your taste for sound could change as the time goes,
actually it happens to many guys all the time.
And with fine pickups (wide sound range of transmitting and wide dynamics)
you should be able to dial your tone without too many problems.
But those midds, trebbs, attack etc are not determined by pickups only, remember that.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 04:41 PM

Yeh, I'm going to go for the Rogue. I'm not sure about the neck but atm I'm leaning towards the scorpion. I was thinking about getting a different brand of pickups but then I remembered that the parker can combine the neck and bridge pickups so two completely different sounding pickups probably wouldn't sound too good.

Posted by: Marc_Maiden Jul 23 2009, 04:44 PM

well said muris...

as for mixing pick ups...you dont need to match outputs at all..


in my guitars, i like a somewhat hot bridge for higher gain playing,

and a really low output neck for the jazz band im in and other clean sounding adventures.

the way i compensate for the volumes is pick up height. you can adjust and lower the pick up height to match volumes. There still might be a little difference yes, but not enough to make a huge obvious difference

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 04:46 PM

You can mix all possible brands as long as it fits your needs and tastes,
no rules there, just listen to how it sounds and works.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 04:49 PM

And you don't think when I play with both pickups at the same time they'll sound bad if they're completely different.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jul 23 2009, 04:54 PM

yes surely this is an issues, specially for split tones, you have to be carefull

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 05:10 PM

It's hard to say what's bad Matt, you have to try them together.

Posted by: Toroso Jul 23 2009, 05:12 PM

Have you considered the Parker PM-20 Pro? It comes with a SD JB/Jazz set.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 05:14 PM

Yeh, and I figured it wasn't worth the money, and I might as well save £250 and choose my own pickups.

Posted by: Toroso Jul 23 2009, 05:23 PM

Oh well. I'd love to hear what you think about that PM-20 when you get it. I've looked at that one myself.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 05:31 PM

I'll write a review when I've had it for a bit. The shop says they can't get it in until mid-end august though so I can't get it for a little while yet.

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 23 2009, 07:07 PM

I'm going for Rogue in bridge, and Stan has suggested Scorpion or fusion in the neck so I'll go for one of those. Probably the fusion since it says it's specially designed for coil splitting.

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 23 2009, 10:45 PM

I hope those will work fine for you Matt.
Tell him more about your real needs and tastes,
perhaps he could do some special wounding for you.

Posted by: Ivan Zecic Jul 23 2009, 10:49 PM

Have you ever considered SD Pearly Gates? To me, they sound just awesome!!! You should check out their clips on SD site, if you havent already...

Posted by: Matt23 Jul 24 2009, 12:24 PM

Well I told Stan in detail what sort of tone I wanted, and he recommended the Rogue for the bridge, and the Fusion for the neck. So that's what I'm going to get.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jul 24 2009, 01:22 PM

Sounds good then, congrats.