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Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 3 2008, 06:57 PM

I discussed this with Kris today, and I thought it would be fun to start a thread and see what others think ...

Of course, it's all Muris' fault

If anyone asked me, I would say I am an intermediate player - of course, we have observed before on GMC that no one ever admits to being advanced - they become intermediate after a year or two and stay that way forever even though they get better and better. Even Pavel calls himself intermediate So after playing for 30 years (some of them good years with progress, a lot of them bad years before I came to GMC) there are some things I can play well, and a lot that I can't. I am a very unbalanced player, being mostly self taught. My theory and musical understanding skills are good, I play legato reasonably well, and my phrasing is competent, but my alt-picking is slow, my sweeping is virtually non-existent and I can barely tap.

When Muris came out with his intermediate Bb Lesson, I was amazed at the musicality of it, it sounded so breathtaking, but was labeled intermediate. There are a lot of techniques on there that I haven't mastered yet, but I was up for the challenge, maybe I could play it after months of practice.

So, I decided to get my feet wet by learning the beginner Bb lesson - again, intensely musical, but a lot easier to play. I'm intermediate, right? Should be able to pick it up in half an hour or so right? Noooooo! A lot of the stuff on that lesson IS very basic, the alt picking is fairly slow, no hard bends, only 16th sweep picking not even 16th triplets, but for me, the sweeps were very hard.

I started slow, and persevered. The basic mechanics of sweeping I have down, thanks to Pavel's amazing sweeping lessons, but I suck speed-wise, but actually this lesson was inspiring to me as I started out at 50bpm and worked up to 72bpm (full speed), but it took me about a week to get there. Now I play this lesson as a warm up, and I am still working on the phrasing - Muris phrasing is exquisite, and actually to get that right and play it cleanly is hardest of all, but I am enjoying that part

So all of this got me thinking - if someone who has played guitar fairly seriously for 30 years can't play a beginner level GMC lesson without trouble, what does that mean? Am I a pathetic guitarist? I hope not ... I know I have gaps in my abilities but I can certainly play.

Are the levels whacked? Maybe a little, but that reflects just how hard it is to grade a lessons difficulty - When Muris says a lesson is easy, both he and Steve Vai could probably play it easily, the rest of us might have problems!

It also depends on what you have practiced and the style of it. If it was a blues, or Gilmour style lesson, I would probably have mastered it in 30 minutes and would not have been writing this, but because of the sweeping it gave me problems - maybe that just reflects the fact that as far as sweeping goes, I AM a beginner. I know for sure I will be working on the intermediate lesson for the foreseeable future, and may never get to the advanced lesson.

Be that as it may, I raised this point for a reason, it just took me a while to get to it - how do other GMC:ers feel about the levels? Do they fairly represent your abilities, do you have big gaps like me? Is there a way we can improve the rating system? What do you guys think?

BTW, Kris is doing an awesome job even having such a cool rating system on the site, I am not criticizing, just wondering how it works out for others. And Muris is a guitar god, and plays a lot how I would like to play but he thought of it first!

Posted by: Constie Jan 3 2008, 07:28 PM

All in all the system is good but I think the instructors forgot what a "beginner" is
The first month I was hardly able to play powerchords. The fingers are wobbly and they won't hit the right fret.
I will give you a few examples which are absolute impossible for a beginner:

http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/neoclassical-3-levels-beginner/index.htm
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/three-level-solo-beginner/
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/melodic-tapping-lesson/

This is nice beginner-stuff: http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/mixolydian-soloing-beginner/

It's really demotivating to see I'm a "beginner" after 3,5 years of playing.
If I saw your beginner lessons 3 years ago, I'd rate them as "professional". As a beginner you are impressed by everything that's a little faster because you're not able to play anything cool

Posted by: Owen Jan 3 2008, 07:31 PM

I had a similar problem playing one of Vinod's classical pieces that was meant to be relatively easy, I can play up to about level 6 palm muted and alternate picking type metal but I couldnt get the level 4 classical piece down at all. I think its all relative to the way you've trained yourself as a guitarist, I liked the fact that Vinod's lesson was labelled easy and that I couldnt do it because I now realise that I need to work on my abilities in that area - whereas had it been labelled hard I would have just given it up because it was marked as beyond my skill level, so for me at least, the grading has been helpful.

Constie - I see what your saying though because some of the chops in that lesson I couldnt have done a year ago - after two years of guitar playing. It can also be quite intimidating from that perspective.

Posted by: fatb0t Jan 3 2008, 07:37 PM

Just with taste, things vary. You may be an 'advanced' gutiarist with blues but be a 'beginner' with metal. I guess the only TRUE advanced guitarists are those who've mastered most styles reasonably well?

I dunno, I've pondered this many times and just assumed I needed more practice in various styles namely metal.

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 3 2008, 07:39 PM

It must be extremely difficult to rate a tutorial, especially if you made it.
And what do you measure it against?
When you have played for years, you tend to forget just how difficult it was to do things you take for granted now.

How about letting the users grade the lessons?
By means of 10 radio buttons at the bottom of each lesson page?

Posted by: Constie Jan 3 2008, 07:42 PM

Good idea, but it has to be visible that you're not rating the quality

Posted by: swingline Jan 3 2008, 07:43 PM

Me too, Rock and Metal stuff I can play sixes but I try classical and jeez I don't even know what number I'm at, but its going up this motivated me to pick up the old acoustic and do some good classical stuff.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 3 2008, 07:46 PM

+1 to that, that is very cool idea! You know, the users could DIT so the rating would be.. suiting their needs:)

Posted by: Smells Jan 3 2008, 07:54 PM

wow what a great thread, be some interesting answers here for sure.

My opinion, hmmm... well I was in chat with Muris a few nights back and we touched very slightly on this, the Paul Gilbert lesson is a 9, theres many techniques in there that are indeed advanced, I`m very close to nailing this lesson but wouldnt class myself as advanced, Muris indicated that perhaps it was more inter-advanced which I would say is a fair comment.
The weird part is that some of the lessons around 5-7 I find a lot harder to play than this, but I think Andrew has covered this well in his post, I think a lot has to do with the way you have "trained" yourself as a player.
I`ve been playing pretty much the same style of guitar for 20+ years, and the techniques (although I have no claim to have mastered them) used are very familiar to me and work for me as a player.

I actually think the rating system is genius, I am almost jealaous of new guitarists starting out on this site, I`m too set in my ways (full of bad habits) to change now, the new guitarist can model themselves around many different styles here and learn correctly, something that I am trying to do, but I`m able to listen to a lesson and say, yup I know I`ll be able to play that eventually, or whoo this ones gunna be hard, you guys can use this rating system to progress through many techniques.

I`m kinda re starting out on some aspects of my playing and learning the "begginer" lessons too, as they are full of great techniques to try and change some of these habits that some of you guys wont pick up coz of the excellent tuition that is here.

I agree Kris has done an excellent job on the rating system, and I think it works pretty well, its never going to be perfect, but if used as a guide then its great.

Posted by: Philippe Jan 3 2008, 08:05 PM

Was Hendrix an advanced player? In any case, he was not that fast, didn't do much tapping or sweeping. Most of the most famous guitarists are not fast players.

To me an advanced player is someone that has a good musical knowledge, can perform well with other musicians, has a decent technique, a good repertoire...

I found this school syllabus and I think it gives a nice level scale. Maybe if i was living in the UK I'd take their test in order to get more motivation to practice.
http://www.rockschool.co.uk/rsl/sites/6/documents/GuitarBassDrums_2006-2012_syllabus_guide.pdf

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 3 2008, 08:05 PM

I don't think that sweeping and tapping belongs in "Beginner" - they are intermediate techniques to me.
But I am probably getting old..

Posted by: Tomy Jeon Jan 3 2008, 08:10 PM

Hmm... I think I'm a beginner to intermediate because I can only play 4's I guess people have different standards if what beginner, intermediate and advanced are but I think I'm in between a beginner and intermediate.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Jan 3 2008, 08:19 PM

If I may geek out here just a little bit..... In the world of role playing (and to an extent, video game role playing) one can be a high level and still lack in many abiliites.....its just the nature of the beast we call life. For example: the highest level grand death wizard might not be able to punch someone out as well as a low level martial artist.

Through time and training, you are given "points" to spend on increasing a skill in a certain field.
This mode of thought works in the world of guitar as well: If I had to "stat" myself out, It would look like this:

Metal/Rock Proficiency: 5/10
Blues Proficiency: 4/10
Jazz/Fusion Proficiency: 1/10
Flamenco Proficiency: 3/10
Classical Proficiency: 3/10
Country Proficiency: none
Finigerstyle Proficiency: 3/10

if you wanted to get in-depth, it would have sub-stats like this:

Alternate Picking Proficiency: 5/10
Sweeping Proficiency: 1/10
Legato Proficiency: 3/10

and so on.....


For some of you, the above chart looks like this:

Metal/Rock Proficiency: 9/10
Blues Proficiency: 8/10
Everything else: none

Its really all a question of what you spend your "points" on (factors like 'what do you spend your time training on' 'the quality of your training' and the 'time spent training' will decide this) and also its a lot harder to go from 8 to 9 on something than it is to go from 1 to 2.

Just a thought

Posted by: Tomy Jeon Jan 3 2008, 08:24 PM

But a great example. People like to practice different styles more than others.

Posted by: Smells Jan 3 2008, 08:34 PM

Thats a really interesting idea Spidey.

Who would award those kind of points tho, how would they be earnt and who would decide?

I really think it is a good idea, can you expand on it for us

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 3 2008, 08:41 PM

So far I have found the levels quite accurate !! Im lucky in that i started my journey with GMC and so its almost a part of me !!

I guess it all comes down to what techniques you practice most!! I find by practicing mainly alternate picking/speed runs and sweep picking the rest kinda follows easier !

Posted by: Spiderusalem Jan 3 2008, 09:12 PM

Well I'm not saying we should install a rigid system of charts and stats that we increase with the purchasing of points, it would make playing guitar too much like a video game.

But think about why things like video games (or anything where the experience is broken up in "levels" and one perseveres through the increased difficulties with equally increasing skill sets) are so fun to us. It makes us feel like we've achieved something.

I'm not saying "install a system" but rather "keep this mentality" and know that when you increase your skill level in a certain style or technique you ignore others. The phrase "advanced guitar player" is too broad. One must break it down.

When you have this mentality, you are more conscious of the big picture. What you want to learn, what you want to mold yourself into, and what you are going to end up lacking are all important things to keep in mind, but sadly is something that a lot of people dont think about. Like Andrew, he wonders if he's a beginner just because he has problems with certain aspects of the lesson, when really Andrew just didn't spend enough "points" on Sweeping. He spent them on other things...

I mean, Imagine having that mental "stat sheet" (or you could even write it down if it helps you to visualize it). When you finally become the guitarist you want to become, what will that stat sheet look like? what will it say? Will it look like this?:

Metal/Rock Proficiency: 2/10
Blues Proficiency: 8/10
Jazz/Fusion Proficiency: 10/10
Flamenco Proficiency: none
Classical Proficiency: none
Country Proficiency: none
Finigerstyle Proficiency: 6/10

or will it look like this?

Metal/Rock Proficiency: 10/10
Blues Proficiency: 10/10
Jazz/Fusion Proficiency: none
Flamenco Proficiency: none
Classical Proficiency: none
Country Proficiency: none
Finigerstyle Proficiency: none

you decide. They're your stats

Posted by: Smells Jan 3 2008, 09:15 PM

oh i see, I understand m8, its a great way of putting it and thinking about it, I might actually give that a try, sounds interesting, thanks

Posted by: Muris Jan 3 2008, 09:36 PM

All my fault
I'm gonna play only chords from now on

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 3 2008, 09:42 PM

Awww ! Dont be sad

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 3 2008, 09:42 PM

Don't worry, Muris!

Good point, Spiderusalem!
Skill is not one thing, but many.
Let's chart our abilities!

Back on topic:

I think the skill levels are a great help.
Some of them are put very low, most of them are spot on.

I don't see tapping and sweeping as fundamental, beginner-level stuff - and therefore would like those lessons rated higher because of that. IMO.

And I still think it would be nice to give feedback to the author of the particular lessons regarding the relative difficulty.

Posted by: Owen Jan 3 2008, 09:43 PM

That'd make me feel very comfortable about my skills Muris - please do

and if we're doing this charting thing then I'm a Night Elf Mohawk.

Posted by: Smells Jan 3 2008, 09:47 PM

no dont you dare m8!

your a huge inspiration to many here, your lessons rock!

Posted by: coffeeman Jan 3 2008, 09:59 PM

I learned to play guitar 16 years ago, and I can say Im a begginer that can play. Intermediate is just a step from where I am. Its a litle bit frustating to say that , but its never too late to became a pro so I think Im on the right path to achieve it.

For the moment Beginner.

Posted by: Muris Jan 3 2008, 10:03 PM

But it's all my fault

Joking a bit

Yeah,this level issue is really tough
specially for me when I need to decide which is which.
3 levels are just to small for all techniques,chops etc
but will do my best in the future to think more "lower" regarding to levels.

Posted by: stratman33 Jan 3 2008, 10:06 PM

ya i completely agree-there is NO WAY i could have played those as a beginner

Posted by: The Uncreator Jan 3 2008, 10:07 PM

Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced.....To me its so limited, But ive never been all that concerned about classifying myself as any of those, i dont really care to be honest. I always want to be better, and in my own eyes ill never be perfect or as good as my heroes, As long as I'm satisfied with how im doing and where im going, im happy

Spidey's idea is cool, stats on what the lesson requires proficiency at. I think its great (and not just because im an RPG Nerd either )

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 3 2008, 10:09 PM

Am I missing something here?

I mean, I see 10 levels ..

Posted by: stratman33 Jan 3 2008, 10:11 PM

same here, mate, i can only play up to about level 4 on here, so i'd consider myself just a step away from intermediate, like you.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 3 2008, 10:32 PM

I like Spidey's insight too - it makes perfect sense but he put it particularly well. It also shows what a multi dimensional thing music is - you can break it down by technique, but that still doesn't mean that a level 10 bend-mage can play the blues because he doesn't have any experience in it, so you need to think of the genre too.

The basic point is spot on though - you get so many experience points to spend, and you can concentrate them on one thing, or spread them out on a number of things and do them less well. The experience points you have all come from the amount of quality practicing you do, so practicing more obviously makes you better at what you practice- Slightly better at 10 things, or a lot better at one thing.

Thanks for putting it in these terms Spidey - helps a lot!

Posted by: Rtb Jan 3 2008, 10:42 PM

I'm (more or less) a level 6.

Level 7 is usually a bit too fast.

Posted by: Goliath Jan 3 2008, 10:43 PM

Now, being the egotistical sap that I am, I didn't bother reading anyone's posts and just jumped right in with a reply to Andrew's original question.

What if you rate it against different criteria for different facets of playing. You could represent this graphically if you wished or have it be a sum of parts type deal. Take 5 criteria to rate a lesson, for arguments sake, I chose speed, technicality (string skips, all down strokes, sweeping,etc), feel (vibrato, bends), and timing (odd time signature or straight forward to the click?), and since I couldn't think of anything, I chose Cowbell.

So while "Don't Fear the Reaper" would rank 3 in Cowbell, it would maybe score a 2 in speed, 2 in technicality, 1 in timing, etc etc.

I spared no expense on this post and generated this graphic as a prototype for ranking lessons. You would go out each arm to whatever degree deemed appropriate then connect the dots and shade the center. Whatever color you shade the center reflects the genre of music the lesson is reflecting.

If you're wondering what piece of software I used to generate it, it's the ultra advanced photo editing software/graphic design called "Paint".


Without further ado:

Posted by: Spiderusalem Jan 3 2008, 10:51 PM

My pleasure, Andrew.

Now that I've had more time to think about this, I've realized that there are other benifits as well. I touched on this on my last post.....

For a long time, I wondered why people could play something like "guitar hero" for hours on end, but when it came down to actually practicing a guitar they were good for about 15 minutes. The reason for this is because Guitar Hero gives you instant gratification by telling you what you've achieved right away. For those of you that play MMORPG's, you know that the addiction comes from wanting to gain levels and incrase those stats. It gives us gratification to see a numerical representation of how much we've improved in the past hour or so. Real life guitar playing has nothing like this. Its harder to see our achievements, and gratification is nothing close to "instant".

But with a mindset like this, it brings us closer to that "video-game-going-up-the-levels" gratification, and I for one find it easier and a lot more rewarding to practice guitar with this mindset.

Posted by: swingline Jan 3 2008, 10:56 PM

Thats a pretty good system I like it plus its kind of flashy. Its also great because I need to work on Cowbell.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 3 2008, 11:01 PM

Aww Muris, please make us lots more nice lessons, its not your fault that I can't play your simplest lessons

How about if I post a recording of Bb Beginner in a few days to your forum, would that cheer you up??

Posted by: g-forcelover Jan 3 2008, 11:04 PM

that is all true, and jimi hendrix was one of the most creative guitarists of all time, and that is what made him awsome!

Posted by: Manny Jan 3 2008, 11:04 PM

maybe we need another rating

like Mega Beginner

Posted by: PlayAllDay Jan 4 2008, 12:12 AM

No that is not going to be OK - I will not allow it
You have made me work harder than any other guitarist in my life ever Muris



Great insight you have there spidey, I agree. I set myself little achievements/levels to achieve all the time to keep me motivated in practise but it would be great if the site also offered this.
I would become even more addicted to practising.

Posted by: Crazyfret Jan 4 2008, 12:44 AM

Great topic of discussion Andrew

I must admit due to the range of styles the guitar covers there are going to be areas that you will find difficult to play even from a 'beginners' level.

I can empathise with Andrew when he say's he is somewhere in that intermediate zone. I feel the same way when I come accross lessons in the 3-4 bracket that I must admit I have not mastered yet!! I'm not getting at the instructors here but I've known for some time that I'm a pretty poor guitarist in some respects and its why I keep trying and practicing the lessons.

There may be some styles of playing that don't suit me i.e. sweep picking. I must admit its a great way of playing but I too find it a very difficult style to play and unable to incorporate it into my playing.

I hope Muris carries his lessons on in the same vein cause he is an inspiration of someone I'd like to at least emulate in some way on guitar

Same goes for all the other tutors on providing this site with a wealth of knowledge and array of styles. I'll cherry pick the ones that intrest me to learn and practice. I know it ain't gonna happen overnight but I like the words of encouragement I get from other guitarists

Keep up the good work guys

Posted by: besip Jan 4 2008, 12:52 AM

i'm ok with everything..i'm just complain 1 time about my self becouse for me is to hard the 1 heavy metal lesson and playing power chords with 3 fingers.

but thats ok becouse i'm can decide which lesson i'm gonna pick.i'm also belive what Kris say-do not take the easi lesson take the hard one and later you will be better player

so the tru is somewhere betwen becouse everybody is diferent

Posted by: Muris Jan 4 2008, 01:00 AM

Ahh,NOW we're talking!!



You're right,there are 10 levels
but me and some instructors as well are spliting
lesson into 3 parts sometimes,Beginner,Intermediate and Advanced.

It's a lot more easier to rate lesson in 10 steps
but it's hilarious to make 10 versions of same lesson

Posted by: skennington Jan 4 2008, 01:27 AM

great topic hear guys. Thanks Andrew for this one. I'v only been playing for a couple months and difinitely consider myself a beginner. I just don't know how you can rate lessons,songs ect with so many techniques. alot has been touched on here.

It's kinda like asking a surgon are you a beginner or advanced. I don't think any would say that they still don't have things to learn. They call there business a "practice" for a reason. There always learning something new. I think there will always be something different. Advanced as Muris is, I think he would still atest to wanting to learn different things to make new sounds.

Just my analogy of it.

Steve

Posted by: Muris Jan 4 2008, 01:30 AM

Golden words + 1

Posted by: Gerardo Siere Jan 4 2008, 02:20 AM

I like the idea thet members qualify the lesson, as preview you can post what technical difficulties it has, alt picking, sweep, legatto playing etc. Or put some prerequisites ex: can use the for fingers, can do some fingerpicking.

Posted by: JVM Jan 4 2008, 03:56 AM

Interesting ratings they have there - as for me I'm a solid four according to them (except in the sight reading department) and I have a lot of the stuff mentioned in level 5 down. In terms of GMC lessons I can play most level 4 lessons, but the level 5 lessons are often too tough - though I can do a few of them pretty well (and I have high standards so when I say I can play them I mean I can play them )



I think this is a great idea. The chart and everything.

Posted by: swingline Jan 4 2008, 07:47 AM

Don't laugh too much at paint, check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUWqRhReaZk

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 4 2008, 06:45 PM

It sure is!

I meant the grading: A grade 4 beginner lesson is more difficult than a grade 2 beginner lesson, right?

If we cannot do a lesson, we know we'll have to work hard to be able to.

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 5 2008, 11:35 PM

I really miss the option of seeing the difficulty level on the actual lesson page.

When you've clicked your way to it from the main page, you can't see how the lesson is graded.

The search results pane should show the difficulty level as well ..

((Er, I should probably report this directly to the GMC web admins?))