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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Guess The Time Signature!

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 22 2013, 10:04 AM

Time for some more food for your ears tongue.gif

Let's guess the time signature of the songs posted in here and as before, the one that guess gets to post a song and ask the question biggrin.gif

Ready? I'll start with a classic:


Posted by: ConnorGilks Feb 22 2013, 10:13 AM

Take Five is definitely in 7/8.









(Kidding tongue.gif)

Posted by: AdamB Feb 22 2013, 11:17 AM

Spoiler:

5/4

Posted by: BTrian Feb 22 2013, 01:30 PM

I'm going to like this thread smile.gif


@ Connor:
no I think it's rather in 4/4 tongue.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 22 2013, 03:54 PM

Hehe AdamB - you are right smile.gif Your turn to post an odd time song tongue.gif

Posted by: AdamB Feb 22 2013, 05:28 PM

I don't really know any tbh, I only know sevens and fives by gurthrie govan, which would be pointless as the title gives it away! The only other one I know uses odd time sigs is;


It's *really* long, as it was a sort of concept EP. Just do the first minute or two I guess? There are multiple time signatures that switch quite often, so try to name as many as you can! heh.

Posted by: Rammikin Feb 22 2013, 05:39 PM

Sounds like 5/4 to me. At least at the start.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 22 2013, 06:03 PM

Tarkus is a lot of 5/4 and then it actually goes into 4/4 at about 1:00. some of the 'transitions' seem like bars of 6/4(?)

Mahavishnu (just the main riff from 0:13 to 0:55) ...



Hint: the tempo is quick.

Posted by: SoundShapingDotCom Feb 22 2013, 06:40 PM

I counted and thought 5/8 but I see that it's really 5/4. How can I hear if it's x/4 or x/8?

Thanks!

Posted by: klasaine Feb 22 2013, 08:45 PM

This would probably be a good question for Matt (the prof).

Don't feel too bad, it's not always so easy to tell.
As a very very general rule listen for the individual beats. For example: if the phrasing feels like the first vid that Cos posted, (Take 5) in 5/4, and you can def feel and hear the individual beats with a big accent on beats 5 and 4 then 5/4 is a good guess.
Another general rule - if it's 'fast' think of it in x/8 ... 'slow' - x/4
Also, when listening, try to determine if there's another subdivision that you feel/hear. In 6/8 as opposed to 6/4 we tend to feel it in 2 - 1₂₃ 2₂₃ ... as opposed to a very even 123456.
A lot of the determining has a lot to do with how the writer wrote it. 5/8 and 6/8 are pretty easy to write beamed 1/8 notes for the subdivision of the measure.
Some decent example on a wiki page ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintuple_meter
No great explanation as to why though.

Posted by: The Professor Feb 22 2013, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (SoundShapingDotCom @ Feb 22 2013, 05:40 PM) *
I counted and thought 5/8 but I see that it's really 5/4. How can I hear if it's x/4 or x/8?

Thanks!


That's a tough one, but a good question!

For me, I try and hear the pulse of the song, so if there is a kick drum accent, or a bassline that is laying out quarter notes then I will go with that and call something 5/4. But, if the accent is more on the 8th notes, say in a guitar line or keyboard part, then you could call it 10/8.

It is usually a matter of the accents and the pulse of the song. But, if you were thinking something like 10/8 and the song was in 5/4 it's not a huge mistake. You might still be able to play it fine, but in writing it out you might run into trouble with notating a song in 10/8 if you are thinking 5/4.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 23 2013, 07:43 AM

Great input Matt and Ken smile.gif

For me it was also a matter of studying accents when trying to figure out the time signature of a song - at some point I was jamming with this crazy drummer who told me 'Hey what if I create a groove that is 4/4 and 3/8' Would it be accepted to look at it as 11/8? If phrased in such a way, of course. He thought of the 4/4 as 8/8, plus 3/8 it would give him 11/8.

Posted by: Fayeed Tan Feb 23 2013, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (ConnorGilks @ Feb 22 2013, 10:13 AM) *
Take Five is definitely in 7/8.


(Kidding tongue.gif)


I actually tried counting on 7/8 before I saw "kidding" on the bottom of your reply biggrin.gif laugh.gif LOL!

The result was this really wicked metric modulation, playing 7's over 5's. Which sounded cool biggrin.gif

Posted by: BTrian Feb 23 2013, 08:57 AM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 22 2013, 06:03 PM) *
Tarkus is a lot of 5/4 and then it actually goes into 4/4 at about 1:00. some of the 'transitions' seem like bars of 6/4(?)

Mahavishnu (just the main riff from 0:13 to 0:55) ...



Hint: the tempo is quick.


great one, actually got this album but haven't listened to it for ages

If I count right, it's 9/8 and indeed quite quick smile.gif


edit: next one

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2013, 09:45 AM

Yes sir, 9/8 it is!

Posted by: SoundShapingDotCom Feb 23 2013, 11:55 AM

Thanks for the replies very informational. I would love to see more of these challenges in the future, thanks!

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2013, 05:19 PM

21/8 for the S. Wilson? (or 21/4 - it's kind of slow feeling)
Or a 'compound' time sig - one bar of 10/8 and one bar of 11/8 maybe?
10½ / 4 ... ?

Posted by: BTrian Feb 23 2013, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 23 2013, 05:19 PM) *
21/8 for the S. Wilson? (or 21/4 - it's kind of slow feeling)
Or a 'compound' time sig - one bar of 10/8 and one bar of 11/8 maybe?
10½ / 4 ... ?


I also got 21/8 on this one so you're up for the next one.
(hard to tell one definitive way of splitting this thing into smaller bars, 10/8 + 11/8 works, but so does 11/8 + 10/8 and some other things, too)


Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2013, 10:38 PM

You know what? - though it's phrased in larger groupings of 21 ... now I just think it's 7/8 (with 3 bar phrases).
It's a lot simpler to count that way, lol!

Posted by: klasaine Feb 23 2013, 11:53 PM

More Mahavishnu. Why do I post a lot Maha Orch? This band is the mac daddy of odd times in a rock/jazz context. If you can get the time sigs in this $h1t - you can get anything!

This one has multiple answers (that's a hint actually). There's two different feels in this tune, 0:11 - 0:44 and at 2:52. Both are in the same time sig (or multiple of).




*One of the best (and most influential) albums for 'hearing' odd time sigs is Don Ellis' - "Electric Bath". Nothing on the record is in 4/4 but it's all pretty straight forward and relatively easy to hear. It's actually big band jazz from the late '60s - but don't let that scare you - it's super hip (even today) and it influenced EVERYBODY who was doing anything that was slightly prog or fusion at the time and I'm sure still today.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=don+ellis+electric+bath&oq=don+ellis+electric+bath&gs_l=youtube-reduced.12...0.0.0.2907.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 24 2013, 04:58 PM

Sounds like 5/8 or 10/8 (I figured out the phrase and counted it as a whole so it makes more sense as 10 rather than 5)

Posted by: klasaine Feb 24 2013, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Feb 24 2013, 03:58 PM) *
Sounds like 5/8 or 10/8 (I figured out the phrase and counted it as a whole so it makes more sense as 10 rather than 5)


Yes.
I count it in 10/8 as well especially the quieter part but when it goes to the rock/shuffle part at 2:52 it's definitely 20/8.
I think of it like this ...
One bar of 12/8 (or 4/4)
One bar of 6/8
One bar of 2/8

Seems complicated, right? This is how I'm feeling it in my head ... | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 | 1 - 2 | 1 2 |
six 1/4 notes and two 1/8 notes.
Here's a very rough sketch chart that I did a long time ago for it (just the individual sections):

Top line is the acoustic guitar part.
The very bottom line is the bass line for the rock/shuffle.
Lines 3 and 4 are the 'melody' over the rock part.
And all the 'other' stuff is the transition/intro/outro sections.

P.S. This is another one that simply uses an E blues scale melody over some pretty cool chord voicings.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 25 2013, 02:39 PM

Totally awesome mate smile.gif It seems like you are a real Maha Orch connoisseur wink.gif I do believe it is my turn, so I will throw this one in:


Posted by: Rammikin Feb 25 2013, 05:34 PM

Seems like it's mainly 7/8 (or 7/4, depending on how you count it). But there are measures with an extra beat in there. Maybe some 9/8 measures also?

P.S. Sure sounds like Tool smile.gif.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 25 2013, 10:28 PM

You got me Cos!
Maybe 13/8? I think I sometimes hear groups of 7 then 6.
Whatever it is I like it and bought it. Thanks!

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 25 2013, 11:09 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 25 2013, 09:28 PM) *
You got me Cos!
Maybe 13/8? I think I sometimes hear groups of 7 then 6.
Whatever it is I like it and bought it. Thanks!


Hehe! That's about it Ken, they phrase like - 3 bars of 7/4 and a bar of 6/4 biggrin.gif I am a huge karnivool fan and I'm glad you like'em!

How about this one?


Posted by: Patrik Berg Feb 26 2013, 01:04 AM

16/8?
I can't work out the count leading to the verse but then 15/8 in the verse?

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 26 2013, 08:22 AM

15/8 indeed smile.gif and 6/8 in the middle biggrin.gif God, I forgot how much I loved the 'Themata' album. I more than excited thinking of what they will come up with this year biggrin.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Feb 27 2013, 09:18 AM

Ok, Patrik - your turn mate!

Posted by: Patrik Berg Feb 27 2013, 02:08 PM


Posted by: klasaine Feb 27 2013, 06:29 PM

6/8 or 12/4 (8)? ... I kind of 'feel it in a big 2 though.

*Burning performance!!!

Posted by: Patrik Berg Feb 27 2013, 09:35 PM

Correct, it changes between 6 and 12 beats and in a count of 12 accents often fall on 1-4-7-9-11. Sabicas was an amazing flamenco guitarist, his technique was faultless. I try to play a bit of flamenco but being self taught I have poor technique

Posted by: Patrik Berg Feb 27 2013, 10:15 PM

Or maybe the accent are on 3-6-8-10-12 smile.gif told you I was self taught tongue.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 1 2013, 09:52 AM

So, who's gonna place a new one? smile.gif ..or should I? biggrin.gif


Posted by: klasaine Mar 1 2013, 06:06 PM

This one might be too easy being it's a classic prog tune ...



Same time sig but illustrating what a diference 'feel' makes ...



*This is gonna be it from me for awhile. I'm doing the musical 'Spamalot' for two weeks - it's keeping me pretty busy.
Hopefully I can check in a little bit though. This is a fun game (the guess the modes thread too). Cheers, - KL

Posted by: BTrian Mar 4 2013, 02:35 AM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 1 2013, 06:06 PM) *
This one might be too easy being it's a classic prog tune ...



Same time sig but illustrating what a diference 'feel' makes ...



*This is gonna be it from me for awhile. I'm doing the musical 'Spamalot' for two weeks - it's keeping me pretty busy.
Hopefully I can check in a little bit though. This is a fun game (the guess the modes thread too). Cheers, - KL


got to say I still really need to check most of those classic prog solo projects.

quite confused about the "same time sig" thing on the vids you posted huh.gif

this is how far I got:
starting with 2nd vid cause it seems easier to me,
5/4 most of the time, switches to 6/4 (6/8?) from time to time and the ending is 4/4

the 1st vid was giving me more problems.
there are some big parts in 4/4 and one small passage in 5/4 (5:00 in the vid)
for the main riff thing I take a guess and say the phrase is all in all 19/16 or sth like that (pretty fast)
( 2 bars of 7/16 and one 5/16)

looking forward to see some other suggestions smile.gif

in any case here's another classic one

Posted by: klasaine Mar 4 2013, 04:34 AM

They're both mainly in 10/8. It's the main melody sections I'm referring to.
The first vid, "One of a Kind" is a straight rock feel in 10 (true, most of Holdsworth's two solos are in 4) and post the solos there's a new section. Start at :24 where the drums kick in. Part II starting at about 3:34 is in 5/4 (again with AH's solo in 4).
The second vid "Either End of August" is a shuffle in 10. Start at 0:56.
*These are both fantastic records. If you're into prog they are must haves!

'Service With a Smile' - 11/4
Or a bar of 6 and a bar of 5.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 5 2013, 09:42 AM

Awesome, gentlemen! Looks like you guys had fun while I was away from the thread, so, while Ken is away, who will be up for this one - not too difficult but nicely phrased smile.gif


Posted by: BTrian Mar 5 2013, 03:31 PM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 5 2013, 09:42 AM) *
Awesome, gentlemen! Looks like you guys had fun while I was away from the thread, so, while Ken is away, who will be up for this one - not too difficult but nicely phrased smile.gif



6/8 ?
indeed nicely phrased and cool song.
also creepy stuff going on in the bass line of the chorus
need to listen to more soundgarden, also only recently discovered that the solo section in black hole sun is 9/4.

I still disagree on that 1st bruford vid being in 10/8, just feels a bit shorter than that.
can't clap 8ths straight through the main melody and stay on the beat.



another classic
referring to the section starting at 4:16
also quite strange guitar work there, using only like 2 different notes for the whole section biggrin.gif

Posted by: klasaine Mar 5 2013, 08:18 PM

QUOTE (BTrian @ Mar 5 2013, 02:31 PM) *
I still disagree on that 1st bruford vid being in 10/8, just feels a bit shorter than that.
can't clap 8ths straight through the main melody and stay on the beat.


You're right BTrain! Big mea culpa. My mistake and my apologies.
It's 19/16.
Or count a bar of slow (1/2 time) 4/4 + 3/16 or 8/8 + 3/16

Is the Crimson (from 'Red') section in 13?

Posted by: BTrian Mar 5 2013, 10:47 PM

yep 13 is right.

gonna let someone else post the next one smile.gif


Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 5 2013, 11:04 PM

me too! smile.gif

Posted by: klasaine Mar 6 2013, 03:22 AM

I had a day off from the show today.
I'll post one I originally posted in the 'guess the mode' thread.
Three right answers. And I swear I won't miss a 1/16 note this time.





Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 11 2013, 04:03 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 6 2013, 02:22 AM) *
I had a day off from the show today.
I'll post one I originally posted in the 'guess the mode' thread.
Three right answers. And I swear I won't miss a 1/16 note this time.



At first glance I can hear a 9/8 but I think there's something more smile.gif will listen closer when I get home and see what else I can spot

Posted by: klasaine Mar 11 2013, 04:53 PM

9/8 is one of the correct answers.
McLaughlin thinks of it in 18/8. Each note of the opening arpeggios counted 12345 12345 123.
You can also think of it (feel it) in a really slow 3.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 12 2013, 09:12 AM

Wow, I really need to listen to more of this - what would you recommend to a Mahavishnu rookie like myself? smile.gif And of course, post a new one if you feel like it smile.gif

Posted by: klasaine Mar 12 2013, 04:36 PM

Start with the first two (and many will argue their best).
Birds of Fire and Inner Mounting Flame.


This one is from keyboardist Jan Hammer:



And this Burt Bacharach classic at 0:39 (the choruses):







Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 13 2013, 09:11 AM

Alright, thank you Ken! I'm gonna let someone else tell us the answer though smile.gif

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