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GMC Forum _ Recording _ Recording With New Program
Posted by: steve25 Nov 12 2007, 04:07 AM
Ok so i've been given Cubase from a friend so i can try it out, and if i like it i can buy it maybe. So i've finally been able to try something other then Audacity but suprise suprise i'm still getting problems and i really don't know how to fix it. I'm new to recording and i guess it's never straight forward.
My setup will now be Guitar > PODxt > USB > Cubase
As far as i can see and tell i've setup everything correctly to run with my PODxt. But i'm still getting a recording sound that i really don't want. What i record is nothing like what my amp produces with my pod. If there was a way i could record Guitar > POD > Amp > Cubase i'd do it that way but i can't. When i record i don't use the amp at all.
The attached file is what i'm getting. This is just a quick sample of the sound that gets recorded. This is Marcus' Collab patch by the way, i'm sure this is wrong. Any help would be much appreciated because i've been toying around with this all day now and i have ran out of ideas.
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 12 2007, 04:15 AM
Well it sounds like someone recorded a guitar through a pod into cubase to me, so I am unsure what the problem is 
Posted by: steve25 Nov 12 2007, 04:31 AM
Arrg how embarrassing, it's ok i know what i've done and why it sounded weird for me sorry ignore this :/. But from what you've just said should i not be recording in that way?
So this post isn't completely pointless is it ok to have both mono and stereo in a recording. And if i'm recording just one track like a solo or something should i use just mono?
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 12 2007, 04:34 AM
So this post isn't completely pointless is it ok to have both mono and stereo in a recording. And if i'm recording just one track like a solo or something should i use just mono?
Good question ...
The guitar signal input is obviously mono, but some effects (like delay, chorus and reverb) an make a mono signal into a stereo one. For that reason you wil be getting a stereo signal out of your pod when you record it.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 12 2007, 04:40 AM
Right so you're saying i should always record in stereo? The problem is i sometimes get an error from cubase because of that. I know i've only recorded 1 track with that mono so i'm not going to get the same fat sound that's heard but i couldn't do that with mono?
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 12 2007, 04:42 AM
Mono won't sound as fat initially because you will be losing all of the stereo information in the delays and chorus settings. You can make your pod have a plainer sound and add those effects back in cubase if you want to, but I would recommend recording in stereo.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 12 2007, 04:49 AM
You mean the effects that are already in the POD patch, not the extras in cubase? Ok i'll try recording in stereo from now on. Just trying to get used to everything and learn what it does. Having played the file back again it still isn't the same as my amp, but i guess you just can't beat an amp speaker. However my amp only had the one speaker, and it sounds 10x fatter then my recording
Posted by: muris Nov 12 2007, 08:56 AM
Hi Steve 
I work in Cubase as well and I record guitars in stereo all the time.
Don't have mono output on Prophesy
but even if I do,I would have used stereo anyhow. 
Posted by: WTN Nov 12 2007, 10:28 AM
I would record all lead work in stereo with one pass. But, if you want killer rhythm sounds then record in mono in one pass and then go back and record the same thing again while monitoring the first recording.
You end up with two mono tracks that vary slightly. Pan these left and right and do not use any effects on them (other than dynamics - like compression) Do not add chorus or flange. Sounds very good with no reverb. This is called double tracking. Some folks do this a second time for quad tracking, but you have to really match them good in your performance. Direct recording vs a mic on a live amp are quite different. You can get fairly good results using direct recording. The problem with getting great results on a live setup are mic selection, placement, mic preamp (this is the key). And this costs big dollars. If you want to hear an example of double tracking go to uploads (members only) and look for the song Resurrection from WTN. The rhythm parts are double tracked. The amp is a Mesa Tremoverb. The mic is an SM57 and the pre is a SCA N72 which is a copy of a NEVE 1272. SCA is Seventh Circle Audio. These are kits that you have to build.
Posted by: ballistic31 Nov 12 2007, 05:38 PM
I found the best way to record with the pod xt (i have the live ) but pretty much the same deal.........record the sound just dry.....double tracked........then just add a stereo buss to the tracks...that way you have options..........like compressors.. reverb in a small way....cause when you pile on reverb you loose the punch...and get all dreamy..........but cool if you are doing solo work or acoustic ballards......... if you record with effects you are stuck with them...and 2 days later you might be like i wish i didnt have so much effects on the guitar..............I learned the hard way..... record dry effects later.............that way i can take it away if i change my mind.............but thats just my opinion....
Posted by: steve25 Nov 12 2007, 06:19 PM
Thanks for all your answers guys. Sorry i'm a complete retard when it comes to recording. At the moment i'd like to be able to record so i can upload to GMC to get feedback and stuff. But i don't easily rest when somethings not right to me or working properly or something 
. And i don't fancy hiring a recording studio every single time i want to record a lesson attempt. So i'm trying to sort stuff now if you get me.
I've noticed when recording leads and clean rhythms that isn't too bad. Might need a bit more volume but overall it isn't that bad to record. The hard part comes when i try to record a distorted rhythm is this normal or am i doing something wrong? Also i notice the recordings sound a bit higher pitched then when i play my PODxt through my amp.
Muris: Ok thanks i'll try and record in Stereo from now on. One question though what do you mean by Prophesy?
WTN: What do you mean by One pass? Also why don't you like recording rhythms in mono? I would have thought if anything it should have been leads in mono and rhythms in stereo. Yeah i've had a little fiddle with double tracking nothing major though.
ballistic31: Are you saying don't have any delay or reverb etc, just play clean or use a distorted tone as well?
Posted by: muris Nov 13 2007, 12:26 AM
It's Rocktron Prophesy,a tube preamp with build-in efxs etc.
Posted by: WTN Nov 13 2007, 12:36 AM
. And i don't fancy hiring a recording studio every single time i want to record a lesson attempt. So i'm trying to sort stuff now if you get me.I've noticed when recording leads and clean rhythms that isn't too bad. Might need a bit more volume but overall it isn't that bad to record. The hard part comes when i try to record a distorted rhythm is this normal or am i doing something wrong? Also i notice the recordings sound a bit higher pitched then when i play my PODxt through my amp.
Muris: Ok thanks i'll try and record in Stereo from now on. One question though what do you mean by Prophesy?
WTN: What do you mean by One pass? Also why don't you like recording rhythms in mono? I would have thought if anything it should have been leads in mono and rhythms in stereo. Yeah i've had a little fiddle with double tracking nothing major though.
ballistic31: Are you saying don't have any delay or reverb etc, just play clean or use a distorted tone as well?
By one pass, I mean no double tracking. Kind of hard to double track lead work, although it can be done.
I said to record the rhythm in mono, then go back and do it again and pan the first pass left and the second pass right. Sure you can just record a single mono rhythm track and pan it appropriately, but the double tracked rhythm really sounds full.
Posted by: tonymiro Nov 13 2007, 01:08 AM
The pitch thing Steve might be if your audio device and recording software aren't set at the same sampling frequency - ie if one is at 44.1 and the other 48.
Cheers,
Tony
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 01:40 AM
Thanks for trying to help me out guys, i bet this sort of things gets tiring after a while. Tony, how could i check that? I know you don't have a POD but what would you do in cubase?
Muris: Oh right cool i don't use one of those i just use what my POD patch has. Do you prefer to record clean then do it that way? So what you're saying is you use that for mono then use cubase for stereo?
WTN: I think i get you, but what i mean is why don't you like recording your rhythms in stereo why only mono? Yeah i didn't think doubling leads was what i should be doing. Cleans and leads aren't too bad
Posted by: muris Nov 13 2007, 01:43 AM
You mean clean like no distortion or clean like without EFXS?
Anyhow,I plug both L and R outputs from Prophesy into Audio Card,
give them some width on pan pots like 80% and that's it.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 01:46 AM
I mean like record clean as in not distortion. Do you record your guitar then put it through prophesy to give it the effects then put it into cubase?
Posted by: muris Nov 13 2007, 01:52 AM
I use both clean and distortion from Prophesy cause it's tube preamp,
I avoid adding drive from softwares like Guitar Rig etc.
And about effects,mostly I add them AFTER I record a sound dry but that's not the rule,
sometimes I match all EFXS that I need straight from preamp
so I record it with them.
But usually I don't record with effects,yeah,just sometimes.
Posted by: tonymiro Nov 13 2007, 01:54 AM
Not used Cubase in a long while Steve but I think it's going to be an option in project setup. Project setup is one of the options in the Project Menu as I remember it.
With the pod there might be a software option that lets you choose and set its sample frequency/rate. Usually its a case of opening the software and somewhere on it there should be a menu option or tab that lets you set up your recording and monitoring preferences like frequency and bit depth. If there isn't then it's probably set at 44.1 unless line6 say different.
Also make sure your using the ASIO drivers for the POD Steve and have set that in the Cubase preferences as well.
Cheers,
Tony
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 02:02 AM
OK i'll have a quick look at that in a bit Tony thanks. I'll have a look at my settings i know i set a few things to PODxt in cubase but to be honest i don't know what they do i only did that because the manual said so.
Muris i know what you mean now i was getting confused over an amp simulation program but yeah its a pre-amp that you're recording with.
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 13 2007, 02:15 AM
Steve, when you say the sound is higher pitched, do you really mean that the sound is pitch shifted - e.g. it plays back in a different key? Or do you mean it sounds like it has more treble, like someone turned the tone knob up full?
The later could be caused by the difference in amp speakers and your PC speakers.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 02:25 AM
The later could be caused by the difference in amp speakers and your PC speakers.
Sorry no i meant treble high. Yeah i figured it had something to do with my setup. Do you think raising the mids on my PODxt would do it? Thing is when i hear it through the headphones from the POD it sounds more bassy then what comes out of the recording. So it can't be the amp speaker can it?
Although i guess what you're saying it when i play it through my amp it will sound chunkier then but compared to my amp the recordings are nowhere near as good as that anyway.
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 13 2007, 02:40 AM
Although i guess what you're saying it when i play it through my amp it will sound chunkier then but compared to my amp the recordings are nowhere near as good as that anyway.
It will sound different for sure. One important thing when recording is good monitoring, and PC speakers just won;t do it. To get serious you need a decent pair of purpose designed monitors and they will give you a truer feel for what is recorded. Both your amp and your PC speakers will distort in different ways, so might your sound card.
Posted by: tonymiro Nov 13 2007, 02:46 AM
Ach, you can pretty much ignore what I was saying then Steve - I was assuming that the frequency shift was down to a mismatch between the pod audio and cubase. (I don't use pc speakers so Andrew's line of thought just didn't occur to me .) Anyway won't hurt to check them and ensure you're using ASIO at the same time and Andrew's also right about investing in good monitors when you can.
Cheers,
Tony
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 02:54 AM
Ok yeah i'll still double check. Well i was going to get some studio monitor headphones for christmas. They're ones made by sony would they be good enough. Price is around £70 i think. Andrew i think i already know the answer but might be wrong, is it possible to get a sound the same or at least closely similar to my amp without micing it? I mean as i said earlier i'm using the same PODxt patch but recording without the amp, just headphones
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 13 2007, 03:18 AM
They will sound different for sure - you need to decide which you prefer. FWIW, the pod is designed to work straight into a sound card because it has built in modelling.
Posted by: WTN Nov 13 2007, 04:10 AM
Muris: Oh right cool i don't use one of those i just use what my POD patch has. Do you prefer to record clean then do it that way? So what you're saying is you use that for mono then use cubase for stereo?
WTN: I think i get you, but what i mean is why don't you like recording your rhythms in stereo why only mono? Yeah i didn't think doubling leads was what i should be doing. Cleans and leads aren't too bad
Once again see below - here you can hear it - you cannot get this sound in one pass in stereo - in double tracking there will be natural timing differences which translate into natural, subtle, flanging effects - and you have not used any effects box. (this song is long - just listen to the first 2 minutes or so) Keep asking questions - I have been doing this for quite a while and have no problem answering your questions. We all started as newbies at one point.
If you want to hear an example of double tracking go to uploads (members only) and look for the song Resurrection from WTN. The rhythm parts are double tracked. The amp is a Mesa Tremoverb. The mic is an SM57 and the pre is a SCA N72 which is a copy of a NEVE 1272. SCA is Seventh Circle Audio. These are kits that you have to build.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 04:54 AM
If you want to hear an example of double tracking go to uploads (members only) and look for the song Resurrection from WTN. The rhythm parts are double tracked. The amp is a Mesa Tremoverb. The mic is an SM57 and the pre is a SCA N72 which is a copy of a NEVE 1272. SCA is Seventh Circle Audio. These are kits that you have to build.
Ok but could why do you not like doing double tracking stereo, why do you prefer double tracking mono? I understand that one pass stereo wouldn't be as good.
Posted by: WTN Nov 13 2007, 05:41 AM
OK - stereo as implied using an effects box or preamp like POD means that some processing has taken affect. This could be a number of things - reverb, flange, pitch shift, or at least a pseudo stereo effect which for sure has happened since your input is mono. (Check out "pseudo stereo effect" under Google for more info) Any of these will alter the input waveform timing (left vs right channel) If you repeat this and double track stereo it will sound like CRAP - try it. I have to ask if you have listened to my example? That's what double tracking sounds like. You cannot get there without mono input tracks. That being said, if you want to record in stereo and double track - here is what you do. For example, I used a Yamaha AW16G and some times I ran out of mono channels. I might have recorded the guitar in stereo like on channel 9 left and 10 right. Then I get the next performance recorded on 11 left and 12 right. No effects at all. When I mix it down I want channel 9 panned left and channel 12 panned right. This really gives you two mono channels double tracked. I hope this makes sense.
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 13 2007, 05:42 AM
Doesn't really matter if you pan it correctly ... the double tracking is the key.
Posted by: WTN Nov 13 2007, 06:11 AM
OK - Steve25 - Here is another great example - go to www.myspace.com/blackline - check out their song called amargeddon soul. It starts with the mono rhythm panned in the center with very if any effects. Then it pans far left and far right and I know for a fact that these are double tracked through Mesa amps and recorded one at a time in mono. Heck they could be doubled again - I forget - but this sound blows me away for rhythm stuff. (I have no affliation with this band at all - just ran across them will searching for Mesa stuff)
Not to mention I wished I could find a singer who had this type of voice - killer.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 07:17 AM
Ok, so let me try and get this crystal clear from what you guys are saying. My POD is giving out a mono signal? Therefore i need to be recording in mono in cubase? Or are you saying i can change my POD to output stereo and if i multitrack that with another stereo it'll sound aweful. Right now i've tried multi tracking stereo. If you are saying i should record in mono then i shall try that from now on and see if the results are any better. However i noticed Muris said that he records in stereo.
Edit: WTN yes i did listen to your recording very nice indeed
Posted by: WTN Nov 13 2007, 07:39 AM
Edit: WTN yes i did listen to your recording very nice indeed
Oh boy - someone needs to jump in here that uses cubase. Your POD is not giving out a mono signal if you have two connectors from it to whatever USB interface you are using. I do not use a computer for recording - never will - I use a standalone multitrack recorder - like Yamaha AW16G or their latest - too much crap happens when one uses a PC for recording. I don't know what to say here. Someone will jump in here and give you the right answers. I am not familiar with cubase so I am sorry for jumping in this thread.
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 13 2007, 07:49 AM
Nope, you are getting stereo if you are recording via USB ... (because you start with a mono signal, and it gets converted to pseudo stereo by effects like delay or chorus). Leave those off and what you have is to all intents a mono signal even if it is recorded on a stereo track. You can then pan it left and right after recording and you will get the desired effect.
Posted by: steve25 Nov 13 2007, 08:05 AM
Ok thanks Andrew so is there much difference in sound and sound quality if i were to record either mono or stereo with my POD?
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 13 2007, 08:24 AM
You have to decide on what effect you are going for. If you don't add stereo effects in the pod there will be no difference, if you add stereo effects and record in mono some of the impact and perceived spread of the signal would be lost.
Posted by: ballistic31 Nov 14 2007, 05:29 PM
well basicaly if you want to here what a pod sounds like double tracked................basicaly 1 track panned left and one track panned right...............I have uploaded a demo song in the very rough stage of its life..but it will give you an idea of what you will be going for ..........it is distorted..........dry no effects.......and for resons i have mentioned in my last post..........It was a sugested to me by tony miro...with a mixing problem i was haveing....and the advice was priceless ( I probly owe him lunch for all the great advice he has given me lol )
you will need to set up some stereo sends............or busses for it to work well .........that is where you want to put in effects......................compressors reverb what ever you so desire...........this is where your true sound will come to life...........a eq stuffed in there some where to tailor your sound a bit never hurts....
The song is called high on a half pipe in the uploads section ......still a rough draft for right now ........but even though the guitar sounds a bit weak............but if i add some compressor to it and eq...lil splash of corus..... to the busses..........it will have a huge wide panned sound.....and a clean distorted sound cause it was recorded dry with out effects........
I recorded it useing the line outs on the back thru my mixing board.............basicaly the same effect as a usb cable
The sound you where getting from the recording i listened to sounded like a pretty good base to work with ......Although you are looking to start off with that huge sound right from the git go i would advise........building that sound in the mixing process........ just my opinion im trying to keep it as simple as i can so i dont get you all confussed lol .............cause i have been right where you are a few monthes back
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