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Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 4 2016, 09:44 AM

As a huge Pantera fan - I find this is extremely dissapointing.

This video by Robert Flynn from Machine Head says it all:



I don't know about you guys, but these kinds of actions from Phil ruins my lust to listen to Pantera.

Shame on you Phil. You have let yourself, Dimebag and the metal community down. Goodbye!

Posted by: fzalfa Feb 4 2016, 09:54 AM

Personaly i never been disapointed about this fact, Phil is racist..... maybe dime too, but i don"t care ! music rules !

Laurent

Posted by: Lester Feb 4 2016, 10:08 AM

Wow! I don't listen to any of that usually, didn't know this existed, but great guts from Robert to stand up to it like that!

Calm, collected and choses his words wisely. It still baffles me that racism can still exist. so sad

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 4 2016, 10:09 AM

Perhaps you have considered making the world a better place, for the sake of your children...?

Posted by: Lester Feb 4 2016, 10:12 AM

I think that is exactly what Robert is saying too, that it's not okay to be passive about it and sweep it under the rug.

Posted by: fzalfa Feb 4 2016, 10:16 AM

Personaly i think the phil's opinion do not change the world's face

In other hand, the raw white power is outdated, this is a primary form of racism.

Laurent

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 4 2016, 10:17 AM

Yes - being passive equals supporting. What Phil does is called promoting.

Positive changes through history has been made by people who dare to stand up.

Philip Anselmo is a racist A***OLE (in spite of all his great music)

Posted by: fzalfa Feb 4 2016, 10:32 AM

i only retain this, about music, because if we knew the truth about our hero's opinion, i think we 'll be seriousely despointed....

Laurent

Posted by: Mertay Feb 4 2016, 11:51 AM

I can think of 2-3 racist famous musicians, composers even in classical music. Funny, metals roots are from blues and he's saying such shit

When the perspective of the listener is changed, that music isn't the same anymore for him/her...its simply ruined or outdated cause music (though formulized) isn't a material one can simply hold in his hands.

Posted by: norules Feb 4 2016, 11:58 AM

Fair play to Robert Flynn for this video and you for sharing it kris.. Facism doesn't start in concentration camps it's where it ends. It starts with dick heads like this who have an audience and people putting up with there crap and not stopping them. I come from the underground punk community in Bristol and we have a long history of rejecting fascists. We have the edl and national front ect trying to organise in our city so we all organise to counter them. As if a fascist regime like the nazis would tolerate metal music anyway

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 4 2016, 12:47 PM

Well said, thanks!

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 4 2016, 02:15 PM

Racist is the wrong term (Technically you can be racist and not hate) A good example would , Einstein could say he was born smarter than you and that is racist , but true . Bigoted is what you are looking for and with that implies hatred . I grew up in a inner city school were Whites were minorities . My 2 best friends were black and Mexican so I dont like the bigotry . My question is this , until we understand the correct term and use it's definition evenly across the board how will we ever end it. Example, The "BET" awards is this not bigoted against all other races, If they had White entertainment awards everyone would scream bloody murder , and don't give me that thy are making up to cover lost ground BS , bigotry is bigotry even if you are using it to get "even". When kids grow up seeing the BET awards and ask mommy to explain why other races aren't allowed , you try to explain that to a child without it being bigoted and then what will happen as that child grows seeing bigotry that whites are not excepted by the blacks and then the problem starts all over again
So if we are ever going to end this , we need to correctly identify to problem and have to evenly distribute it among "ALL" the races . If we can't WE WON'T

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Feb 4 2016, 02:40 PM

I've felt so sad when I found this.

There is a lot of background behind Anselmo's attitude and words, full of death, sadness, suffering. It's not what the term exactly means or whatever, it's what it represents, and I don't think that this act can be justified for any reason. Don't waste time discussing about the language, terms, and whatever! We don't need the language to understand and feel what's happening here.

I believe that musicians who stand on stage have responsibility and those who use it to foment bad things don't have my support.

I support this:

Posted by: klasaine Feb 4 2016, 03:37 PM

It's always eye opening when we find out our 'heroes' are mortal.
Most of them are ... in one way or another.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Feb 4 2016, 06:54 PM

http://classicrock.teamrock.com/news/2016-02-04/anselmo-tells-bandmates-to-move-on-without-him is his response to it....

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 4 2016, 08:50 PM

He seems to take it more seriously now. Hopefully this will act as wake up call for him to get sober and start thinking about what kind of message he wants to convey to his fans.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 4 2016, 11:09 PM

Very sad indeed But don't you think that it's part of the burden of being a fan to separate the Art from the Artist? His output is part of the canon of Metal and for good reason. He was in a really good band that influenced a lot of people.

As a person, he sounds like some of my less evolved Southern brethren who run a bit racist/xenophobic/homophobic/etc.

The South is the home Slavery and some very ugly bits during desegregation. Having dated bi racially and taken a bit of crap about it, i was a bit shocked as to just how racist many folks in the Metal community can be. I do hope we can appreciate the art of artist without dismissing it due to the artist being a racist jerk. Otherwise, we would have to stop listening to a HUGE amount of Metal in particular.

It goes beyond music as well. Henry ford was a VIRULENT ANTI SEMITE yet how many people here drive a FORD? It probably never came in to the Ford car owners mind that he was a big Jew Hater who spent wads of money to promote hatred of all jews. Folks still drive his cars.

Then there is VW, a car and company founded by Hitler himself. Lots of folks drive VW ( I drive one) despite the origins of the company.

Dr. Ferdinand porsche designed tanks for the vermacht that killed millions. How many people drive a porsche?

Fashion house HUGE BOSS designed the Nazi SS uniforms. Anyone own any Hugo Boss clothes?

I do hope that as a culture, we can raise our children (if we have them) with the greatest gift of all. "Discernment".

Todd

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 4 2016, 11:35 PM

I don't get how this makes him mortal? Stupid would be a better word.



Yes that's what it's all about!

Posted by: klasaine Feb 5 2016, 03:48 AM

Everybody's got 'something' that's fucked up about them. That other's don't approve of or that goes against the grain of society, culture and general good manners, etc.

We tend to venerate artists, entrepreneurs, scientists, athletes ... like they are gods.
Then they show that they are fallible (human) and we yank them down (usually with glee).
*What Anselmo said was pretty fucked up ... and I seriously doubt it has anything to do with his indulgences. Those just loosened him up. But like I say, everybody's got something going on in there.

Here's what shocks me about the whole thing ...
That folks are shocked that a guy like Anselmo may have an Aryan Nation leaning or two. Read his lyrics (they're not overtly racist but they're pretty dark and aggressive). It's like when people are appalled when a football player or boxer is accused of spousal abuse. Well, we train them to be that way from a young age and reward them for being good at it. WTF do you expect?

I'm a Jew and I own two Fords.
Miles Davis beat the crap out of all his wives and girlfriends but I still listen to him everyday.
Phil Anselmo is a neanderthal bigot but Pantera was a really bitchin' band.
Etc., etc., etc.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 5 2016, 10:06 AM

@Klasaine and jstcrsn

You are downplaying Phil's [to me] over-obvious racist acts as "bigotism". He ended the whole dimebash 2016 by sieg hailing and yelling " white power". I am sorry to say that I see this downplaying as yet a cornerstone in support of racism.

If this is not a conscious racist act, then could you please clarify what would qualify as such? Perhaps he would need to drag up a black man on stage and insult / beat him because of his skin color? Would that qualify as racism?

This discussion reminds me about downplaying sexist acts with the parole "boys will be boys". This might seem innocent, but in the long run contrubites to domestic abuse, rape etc. We are responsible for showing adolescents at an early age what is OK and what is NOT.

I can definitely see how teaching millions of metal fans around the globe that 'sieg heil' and 'white power' is good stuff - will contribute to racism, further down the road. Can you?

Posted by: fzalfa Feb 5 2016, 10:18 AM

racism ans facism symbols are common in metal representation, german cross, logo design etc...... as for satanic one...
more to '"shock" than to provocate racist behavious, but..... the pronunciation of some phrases are more specific on recist related.

Laurent

Posted by: Fran Feb 5 2016, 12:42 PM

That kind of behaviour is unacceptable. Lucky for humankind these self proclaimed superior beings didn't do all that great back in '45

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 5 2016, 02:29 PM

I didn't down play nothin . I sAid growing up with multi race best friends , I find it offensive , my thought was , If you find this offensive , why don't you care about all the other forms of bigotry as well ? ( see example in post ). And until we fight all forms at the same time, it won't get better .

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 5 2016, 03:09 PM

Are you saying that unless we fight against all [types of?] injustices at the same time we shouldn't deal with any? Sorry I am not sure I get your point.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 5 2016, 03:54 PM

You're completely misunderstanding me. I'm not downplaying it at all. There's a lot of tacit racism/bigotry in metal and punk as well as in the metal and punk community - and there has been for a long time. Bands like 'Screwdriver' and 'No Remorse' are cited regularly as influences.

My surprise is that you, or anyone else is 'surprised' by this little incident.

Personally, I can and will separate the art from the man. Hell, I listen to Wagner.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 5 2016, 04:04 PM

I don't think many old time fans are surprised, this is more of an "enough is enough" thing - initiated by Robert Flynn from Machine Head.

Sure we're almost two decades late, but better late than never - right?

Posted by: klasaine Feb 5 2016, 06:06 PM

The white power thing has been going on (peripherally) in punk/hardcore and metal since the late 70s.
It'll probably get worse as the immigrant crisis in Europe continues and the way politics is going in the US.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 6 2016, 07:45 PM

I am saying we should stand NOW for all injustices , not just hop on the band wagon ones. But, what are you using to determine moral standard

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 7 2016, 04:07 AM

Now that's what I call separating the art and the artist A Jewish man who drives a ford and listens to Wagner. I"m a "Proud Southerner" who embraces racial/social/gender equality and I"m a Metalhead. Thankfully, me mum did quite a fine job raising me IMHO. So much really goes back to that. One of her best friends when I was a child was a Hindu woman who wore a tilaka (small circle of pain/color/lipstick) on her forehead to indicate she was married. I asked why my mom didn't wear one and a learned quite a bit about multiculturalism. I asked if I could wear one and mom got out her makeup and put one on me. I kept it on til it wore off.

I don't listen to a ton of Black Metal, but I'm not offended by it as many folks in my region of the country seem to be. Being in the buckle of the Bible Belt and all But if I was in to some BM band, I don't think I'd have to abandon my concept of faith to do it. At least I hope not

Phil is a bigot. I got no problem calling out bigots. But as mentioned, bitchin band

Posted by: klasaine Feb 7 2016, 05:02 PM

My family's even owned a few VWs.
If you can't separate the art from the person, you aren't gonna be listening to, looking at, watching or reading very much at all ... at least not much that's any good.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 7 2016, 08:47 PM

This is a very interesting discussion - though I am not sure why there wouldn't be concensus around the topic.

Wagner lived on the 18th centrury - not only is that a long time ago, but in my books it's even before the nazis entered the scene (?)

What we have here is the frontman of metal, propagating racism and nazism - to a contemproary audience of potentially millions and millions of fans. He is allowed to spread this message on various channels to people who might not be well aware of the suffering that racism has caused historically.

It is very different to some random small punk band (etc) having racist lyrics. Phil is mainstream in metal!

By objecting to this, we are telling the metal sites, magasines etc. that we do not support Phil spreading this propaganda. By doing so we can make a difference.

Of course there are thousands upon thousands other injustices - and we should try do as much as we can. But if we want to make a difference, it is wise to prioritize - and Phil a big target!

What's even worse in Phil's case - is that everyone is aware of racist hints/themes in in his songs. But we (or at least I) have believed it was part of an artistic message - not his personal ideology!

Now that he has clearly proven the opposite - I feel a strong need to distance myself from him.

Hopefully you will agree that if a big name in metal is open about his racist ideology, it is likely many fans will consider following this ideology?

Hopefully you will also agree that such a large scale following could be devastating?

Posted by: klasaine Feb 7 2016, 09:23 PM

1) Metal is not really mainstream ... and never has been so this shit can always fly under the radar.
2) Many, many, many in that community absolutely know exactly what he's talking about ... and sadly, align with it.

I think it's great that you want to disassociate yourself from Anselmo but you have to understand that this is nothing new or isolated, at least in the States and England (and probably Germany). There are record companies and concert promoters that specialize in white power and anti-Semitic bands and, within the genre, there are a lot of followers and fans.
The hard-core and punk scene, at least in the States, has ALWAYS intersected with the white power bands. You wanna go down a sick and f'd up rabbit hole? - just google white power bands or stormfront or screwdriver band.

Again, my surprise is that anybody's actually surprised.

*This is a great book. It focuses on soccer hooligans and the psychology of crowds but it's a fascinating read ... http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33460.Among_the_Thugs

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 7 2016, 09:34 PM

I'm surprised you're surprised we're surprised




Well that would make this discussion even more important, wouldn't it?

Posted by: klasaine Feb 7 2016, 10:01 PM

Yes, it's very important. But, and maybe it's because I'm a Jew, that I'm used to it (not dismissive of it - just used to dealing with it) because it's EVERYWHERE!
Artists are not immune from feeling disaffected because they can't get a job, aren't rich, can't get a girlfriend or whatever. And they, just like other folks will scapegoat somebody - Jews, Blacks, Arabs, Mexicans, Asians, Women, etc. If there's one constant in this world it's the ability for one group to blame another for their own fucking problems.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 7 2016, 11:24 PM

Well I couldn't agree more. However we can assume not all metalheads are as clear-sighted.

Many people, not used to deeper self-analysis, will channel their frustrations through whatever they can find. And I don't want them to find Phil's ideology first. Perhaps they could practice scales with a metronome all day long instead?

What if Phil ended his gigs by saying something along the lines of "music is what brings us together regardless of where we come from" (he could add some neat swearing to make it sound more like him, obviously).

It would be so easy and so much better. But since he doesn't get it, I say let's take him down and have someone else up there instead.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 8 2016, 05:36 AM

Well, it's all been put up there in the digital universe for everyone to see. So lets see what the 'people' choose to do.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 8 2016, 10:39 AM

The people - that's you and me! What will you do?

Posted by: klasaine Feb 8 2016, 04:29 PM

I'll still listen to Pantera.
Down never really did anything for me and I was kinda over it by then anyway. And honestly, I don't really listen to much metal anymore (have you heard my record? lol!).
If and when anything with Anselmo comes up I will say to myself, "Nazi" ... and go from there.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 8 2016, 07:14 PM

First of all I would hardly consider Phil the frontman of metal, not even close actually. But even if he was, I don't see all his fans, or even anywhere close to a majority of his fans as having the same ideology. I would suggest that number of his fans believing as him to be a fraction of the fanbase. What percent of his fans on this website would you consider believe what Phil does?
And in this day and age, how is is possible that anyone that has been to school for at least 6 years not know of the suffering that racism has caused?

You seem to be giving the guy far more credit than he is due as far as his influence goes. And at the same time not much credit at all to his fans as far as knowing the difference between right and wrong goes. I am not saying because of that that you shouldn't speak out, absolutely you should which brings me to the next point.

There is absolutely no difference whatsoever from some small punk bands lyrics and what Phil said. Racism is racism is racism period!
Whether it comes from Phil or some knucklehead standing on a street corner. and it doesn't matter whether it comes from someone who is blue, green, brown, red or purple. it is all the same. I have to say this because believe it or not , some folks think racism can only come from white folks.

I would say you have been very naive if you haven't thought his lyrics were personal beliefs and even if they weren't his beliefs there is still a racist message there so whats the difference whether he meant it or not? Hello! It is still a racist message! And hello again as Ken has pointed out there are racist messages in lots of metal and lots of other bad messages too right?

What it comes down to is the mind of the listener. The fans that are influenced by these messages are simply weak minded individuals who don't know any better somehow, and I feel there are far more strong minded individuals than weak minded ones , and even the weak minded ones for the most part grow up and see the light eventually.

Don't get me wrong. I applaud you for standing up against this but as Ken has said. I also am surprised that you are surprised. You want me to stand and boycott with you? No problem, I haven't bought a Panterra album since the 90's anyway. For the most part I have always been more of a hard rock and classic rock kinda guy anyway and the older I get the further I get away from most dark music, especially the way it is today. I am much more into positive messages these days.

It is not just metal that has folks in it with messed up ideas and beliefs. Some kinds of Rap music may be even worse than metal when it comes to widespread expressions of racism, hatred and violence.

As long as you don't go all Al and Tipper Gore on me and start talking about censorship (Which I don't believe you would by the way) , I am with you. Otherwise, I would have to label you as Fascist. Just sayin'.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 9 2016, 12:52 AM

Ha, ha! That reminds that I recently got the latest Kendrik Lamar record (how to pimp a butterfly) and I popped it in the car CD player ... with my 6 year old in the car. Oops! Shoulda paid attention to the warning label.
I never pay attention to that stuff. And I never will.
Art is art. Most of the best of it comes from a place of frustration. Occasionally that can manifest in hate. Occasionally that hate is directed at someone. And occasionally that directed hate will have an audience. Sucks but it's true.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 9 2016, 02:05 AM

He is a bigot and I'm all for calling him out for it and for calling any bigots out for being such So I'm with ya!! Probably still listen to Pantera when the mood strikes, but I stream most music so I'm boycotting buying music directly it seems. I do buy indie stuff (like Ben Higgins killer stuff) and such but not much beyond that. Bought the Halcyon Way record as they are local boys

I do think it's on phil to be or not be a racist ass. Just as it's on anyone. It's on other folks to call him on it. PHIL YOU ARE A RACIST ASS!! Your old band was pretty good though back in the day. Since then, mostly just a bigot trying to stay relevant. Teaching our kids that bigotry and ignorance are simply not cool and not something to be honored is one thing we can do. Kids. Sometimes they go the other way and burn down churches though.

Then again, seeing Donald Trump say we should "Ban all Muslims" from entering the country was something I did find truly sad. Let's just start banning people due to their faith system. Egad. Let's wall ourselves in as well!!! Let's take down the statue of liberty as well since that pesky sign is on it talking about "give us your tired/poor/huddled masses" and such. But Trumps fans scare me more than Phils do.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 9 2016, 03:35 AM

Seriously? Something that turns me off almost as much as racism are false accusations of it. And the way you leave out the entirety of what Trump has said concerning Muslim immigration kind of reminds me of the tactics of a guy named Alex Jones. or CNN, take your pick.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 9 2016, 04:00 AM

Donald Trump said" lets not let them enter until we figure this thing out" , Which to me seems smart. To much of that lowest rated news show MSNBC , Todd
And does this not offend you as well. http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/08/beyonce-black-panthers-homage-black-lives-matter-super-bowl-50 , Black panther salutes, her back up dancers wearing black panther beret

Posted by: fzalfa Feb 9 2016, 03:03 PM

This affair have effect even in france, because the organisator of the Hellfest festival, have their regional subvention closed cause the band DOWN is programmed, and the state governemenbt want to cancel this one !!

Google translation

thanks Phil and thanks our bloody government .......

Laurent

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 9 2016, 07:05 PM

Sorry to offend Alex Jones is a bit of a stretch to compare with CNN IMHO, but he has his own audience and makes a living from it. Bit alarmist for my taste though I"m not a "Trumper" as you might have guessed though I'm actually liking Bernie Sanders the more I hear from him. And yes, he's Jewish. So I don't think Phil will vote for him

What does "figure this out" mean? how do you quantify that in terms of time/resources, etc? That's not policy, that's fear mongering IMHO and shoujld be called out as such. From where I sit, it's just as worthy to be called out as Phils racist vibe. But that's just me Everyone is free to think/feel whatever they want



Back to Phil, yea, he's a bit of an old Sknhead and waves his hate flate a bit higher each year it seems. Then again, hate seems to be growing on a global level. All the folks fleeing the war in Syria know all about it. My own govt never learns it seems and wants to get rid of the bad guy leading the blood bath (President Assad) which usually leads to an even bigger blood bath, (See Irag, Afghanistan, any other country where we took out the top bad guy and division and civil war and ISIS followed)

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 9 2016, 07:21 PM

No offense taken, so no worries. I would add that letting emotions cloud better judgement and rational thinking is a very dangerous trait of the left.
At least Sanders has the balls to admit he is a Socialist, unlike the rest of the Democrat party.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 9 2016, 11:54 PM

its good to see you embracing Bernie , now that you have accepted your true socialistic tendencies it will be easier discussing things rather that trying to debate a socialist in a libertarian "sheepskin"

Posted by: klasaine Feb 10 2016, 01:46 AM

It seems to be pretty common and uniform across the entire socio/political landscape at present.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 10 2016, 09:10 AM

He's not shy about it at all Honestly I think a pinch of European style this and that in terms of free education and health care would be a good thing. The middle class bailed out wall street via the tax base used to pay for their mess and I"m all for letting the top 1 percent pay a bit more and help everyone else before the middle class goes away entirely and all we have are the very rich and very poor which is what usually happens right before an armed revolution.

Libertarians have the "liberty" to be as "socialist" as they like That's sorta the point. But folks seem to equate socialist programs as bad things. Social Security is my fave socialist style program but everyone seems ok on that one. It's about time we quit spending billions on stealth jets to fight non existent enemies and more on education and healthcare imho. At least that is how I"ll vote. But yeah I still fly the libertarian flag

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 11 2016, 10:09 AM

This is not really about how big we consider Phil to [still] be relative to other metal acts. It's about how big the racist statement is, and since it's coming from Phil it's probably the biggest one so far in metal (correct me if I am wrong?) This leads me to answering your next paragraph:




...so in other words I don't think you are correct here. It is much more important to distance ourselves against Phil's statement, than some small Punk band. See my explanation above. We are not discussing moral here, we are being strategic about what to prioritise.




With this logic - I am probably the weirdest and most disgusting guy in the world - don't listen to my lyrics!!!!



Yes that's what it's about.

Unless you support racism - now is a good time for metal fans to make statement against Phil/racism in metal. If we let it pass now, we will allow racism to establish itself in metal on a broader scale than before.

Obviously we could make statements all the time against racism that happens EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME. You'd have my wholehearted support for that as well.

But again, if you have other things you want to accomplish in your life as well - then you need to prioritise.

So now is a good time for metal fans to make a statement against Phil/racism in metal. That's what it's about.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 11 2016, 12:55 PM

so.. are you equally disgusted about Beyonce's back up dancers giving a Black panthers "Black Power " salute http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/08/beyonce-black-panthers-homage-black-lives-matter-super-bowl-50

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 11 2016, 02:34 PM

No, are you?

Posted by: klasaine Feb 11 2016, 03:29 PM

I was just looking at their legs. Seriously - didn't even notice the berets or the 'salute'.

I can guarantee you that most of the 'general' public, black or white, didn't put that together either (or even know anything at all about the Panthers) ... until the next day when a handful of commentators brought it up.
It's the super bowl. It's all hot dogs, pepsi, nachos and budweiser. Bruno Mars was the only thing that was even remotely deserving of any attention the entire 3 hours.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 11 2016, 06:14 PM

Really? That part of the halftime show was talked about in the news for a couple days running up to the game. And I guarantee you many knew about it because of BLM bombing social media about it in the runnup to the game.
I like Bruno too but c'mon man, it's the Superbowl and it was a good game.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 11 2016, 06:56 PM

Have you listened to Zappa?
Basically we don't agree on the other points I guess because I think that Phil's influence is miniscule and you seem to think it is huge. And in my opinion a small punk band is no less worthy of being called out than Phil is.
Now on the other hand, that Superbowl halftime show was broadcast to millions all over the world. If you are not worried about what the Black Panthers represent then maybe you don't know about the history of the Black Panthers. Many folks within the group were legit but many of them were and are completely racist and militant and encourage the same kind of segregation they claim to be against. Because of this there was lots of infighting within the movement with the more radical of them ending up leading them.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 11 2016, 09:17 PM

I don't know. Maybe it's regional - ?
Nobody out here cares or pays any real attention to any of that stuff. And nobody's talking about it.
We have water, drought, transpo, pollution, income inequality, severe homelessness and public school issues to deal with. Beyonce and Phil Anselmo and by extension the Panthers and neo Nazis are the least of our problems.

*Apparently Beyonce managed to piss off both the left (appropriated Katrina images, etc.) and the right (berets, salute, etc.).
She must be doing something right.
Go Bey!

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 12 2016, 06:02 PM

yes I am and I don't see how this isn't hypocritical of you , A white guy can't say white power but A black women can give a Black power salute and it's fine with you, please help me to understand your thought process


I dig your equality Ken with them both, it's consistent and It's refreshing

Posted by: klasaine Feb 13 2016, 12:39 AM

If nothing else, I think I'm relatively balanced(?).
What I see and hear, from all sides, is fear mongering. And I'm just not that scared. It's so blatantly over the top. How can anyone take it seriously. Again, both sides/all sides. It's like watching Saturday Night Live in the 70s and 80s.
As my mid-western, Korean war vet father likes to say ... "Compared to Hitler and Stalin, this is all just pussy shit".

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 13 2016, 09:08 AM

The way I see it, both white and black racism are two real problems that need to be taken seriously.

However, when looking back historically - racism against white people is like a fart in space compared the suppression blacks have experienced. Hence my prioritising.

It might be possible that in the US today - an equally big (?) problem lies in friction between social/economic statuses rather than skin color. As a Swede, I am not really qualified for that discussion though.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 13 2016, 12:39 PM

This comes across to me as , Bigotry is okay to use to get even. How is this to help cause equality, it just swings the pendulum the other way .

As ugly as this history is , a very few percentage actually came to the u.s./British north America http://www.inquisitr.com/1830533/black-history-less-than-10-percent-of-slaves-actually-came-to-north-america-transatlantic-slave-trade-where-did-they-all-go/
People forget that number of American soldiers that died to free the blacks and that the percentages of those that accept are still the same (if not better). So I get really tired of People blaming ( and holding everyone responsible) , rather for than the few that are.People also seem to forget many Black peolpe got rich selling there own country men.

with this kind of tepid response you are holding many responsible without any actual evidence

We are bombarded time and time again to not hold muslims accountable for the few radicals, so all I ask is you do the same . Don't hold the entire White man responsible for the few rich and power slave owners that were able to control the situation with their power

Bigotry is bigotry , even when you prioritize

Posted by: Arpeggio Feb 13 2016, 11:41 PM

I think what Phil really said was: WHY SHOWER?!!!

Posted by: klasaine Feb 14 2016, 04:55 PM

Getting a little deeper and more overarchingly into it, and I'm gonna use both Donald Trump and Beyonce, it's all about publicity in my opinion. They're both all about the media. It's all they know. Bey's not a 'great' musician and Trump's not a 'great' business man (they're both good, but not great - 'great' is Jimi Hendrix and Bill Gates). But they are both really great at making you think so.

Beyonce - she doesn't give a damn about black power or the Panthers and I seriously doubt she hates the police. She's a very very rich media super star. Her thing is all about fashion, manipulating the public by using current events, getting 'likes' on social media and figuring out how to stay relevant as she gets a bit older. As I mentioned, she figured out how to piss off both the left and the right - always a guaranteed way to stay relevant. At the end of the day - she's a pop star. She got her face in news and moved a bunch of product. Win.

the Donald - basically the same thing. Aligns himself with the fears of one group and pisses off the other side with politically incorrect rhetoric. You think he doesn't play that? What kind of business man is DT? He made his money in real estate. He's a salesman. A pretty good one and real estate can be tough, especially if you speculate (Atlantic City).
DT is all bluster and pomp. He wouldn't/couldn't do half the stuff he talks about (congress, courts and other countries to deal with). He'd most likely just end up being a relatively bureaucratic president who says funny things now and again.
He says wacky shit, makes a big mess wherever he goes. The media loves that stuff. It swoons (both directions). He's like P.T. Barnum. Consequently, he's the GOP front runner. Win.

*Jimmy Carter recently said he'd vote for Donald Trump over Ted Cruz if those were the choices. He says Trump knows how to 'deal'. I agree.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 15 2016, 03:14 AM

Trump has bankrupted more companies than the wrong notes I hit trying to play a Ben higgins lesson and the situation about phil or bey is after all pretty small beans, what urks me is that someone gets so bent out of shape about one and couldn't care less about the other . To me that is inconsistent to core and am so sick of seeing everyone jump on the bandwagon against phil and then turn around and party with the queen

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 15 2016, 09:49 AM

All in all, I still support folks (especially in the Metal Community) calling out Phil for being a bit of a white supremicist and then for being not man enough to even own up to it. Bad Phil! Bad! Still love Pantera's Music but Phils "white power"ness is really boring.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 15 2016, 05:15 PM

Therein lies the insidiousness of it all.
The Phil thing doesn't freak me out too much. As I said, white power's been on the edges of punk and metal since the late 70s. Phil just happened to do it now, in front of somebody's phone and that someone posted it and it went viral - bad timing Phil.
Black power has been laced into soul since the mid 60s - Curtis Mayfield, Oscar Brown Jr., Gil Scott Heron and it's been in jazz since it's inception. Billie Holiday comes to mind with 'Strange Fruit' but, as mentioned by AK Rich (I think?), it, including Anselmo is all relatively 'fringe'. Most of those artists were not/are not top 10 material. Also, with the jazz and soul it's 1) generally not overt and 2) pre cell phone video.

You never know what's gonna resonate.
So why Phil or why Phil now? My hypothesis is 'timing'. Right now, especially among the younger demographic (40 and below), being seen as white bigot is just about the most uncool thing there is. Phil is almost 50 years old. In the early 80s you could get away with that shit. Most of his audience (now) is younger. Especially the ones going to the shows. Those folks don't wanna see that crap (a nazi salute) at a show. They're all into social justice. Or, they think it's cool to be into social justice. Timing and lighting.

Now Donald Trump and Beyonce ... they figured out how to use the big screen and the ubiquitous small screen (your phone) for their 'message'. That message, IMO is just for their own personal gain - money and power. They know that even a 'perceived' negative message can be turned/manipulated to their advantage. Even if it's only short term. Get both sides talking ... or yelling. Get your money (or your election) now and don't worry about whatever comes later.
Bey is beautiful and Trump is rich. In general, Americans idolize and lionize pretty and rich. The media used to lead or instruct the populace. Now they just follow.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 15 2016, 06:05 PM

To me the media is still trying to lead or instruct, it's just that lately it isn't working at all for them especially when it comes to Trump. As hard as they try to take him down, it has only had the opposite effect. Trump has framed the dialogue as to what this election cycle is about and the media is fit to be tied. It's very refreshing.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 15 2016, 06:40 PM

True.
Though I would argue that most of the media isn't smart enough (anymore) to really engage him in a way that he'll play for real. They've had 3 decades of dumbing down - and the Donald knows that, he watched it as it happened, even participated in it. And we the people got used to it. It's way easier to make decisions based on a rudimentary understanding of economics, government, society and politics. Especially when it's all 'headlines' and memes or tin foil hat conspiracy theory BS. It's all just a reality show now ... and most folks don't know the difference.

Posted by: AK Rich Feb 15 2016, 09:15 PM

You'll get no argument from me on that other than to say I think there are quite a few that know the difference. At least I hope so. Other than that, I really couldn't agree more.

Posted by: klasaine Feb 16 2016, 05:52 AM

As long as it's 51% we'll be OK.

*People have to vote though ... getting them to do that has also proven to be problematic.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Feb 23 2016, 04:45 PM

I do not understand your standpoint.

If I got you right, you think it's wrong that some people are offended by Phil's act when [you think] there are worse problems?

What you seem to miss, is that this thread is an initiative against racism in music. So if you think there are more important areas to address within racism in music, then maybe you could more clearly explain what they are, and what you have done to make a positive change? Because so far all I am hearing from you are complaints, no constructive suggestions / actions whatsoever.

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 24 2016, 03:24 AM

I think you are way off of my thought. Why does phil's actions (in music) offend you and beyonces same actions (in music at the superbowl ) not !. That to me is hypocritical even if you are prioritizing or not

Posted by: Todd Simpson Feb 24 2016, 07:59 AM

Phil gave up on bathing long ago, you could be correct Or maybe PINE FLOWER!!! He is a Southerner after all and quite a gardener.