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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ The Murder Of Music

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 9 2009, 04:18 AM

My friend and an awesome neoclassical shredder Borislav Mitic has recently signed for Lion Music which is the metal label from Finland that also released my album.

Just before he released his new record he posted a very seirous story about "The Murder of Music" on the Lion Music's website. Some of other Lion Music artists (including me) also gave their input on this subject.

http://www.lionmusic.com/murderofmusic.html

I would be interested to see comments on Borislav's text from GMC community.

Posted by: Santiago Diaz Garces Dec 9 2009, 04:23 AM

Let's take a look......

Posted by: audiopaal Dec 9 2009, 08:07 AM

I agree with him for the most part, and it's true..
Some artists will stop releasing albums,
and music as we know it today will be altered because of downloading music for free.

Although I think it's written in a very "brutal" way,
and I don't necessarily agree on all of the comparisons he give,
I do believe he's right and I support the message he's getting across smile.gif

I've always bought albums, and that's why I need a larger apartment soon dry.gif biggrin.gif
I must admit however, I sometimes download albums to check if I like them or not.
We only have one (yes... ONE!) music store in downtown Stavanger,
and it's not a joy to be standing in line for a long time, just to skip through an album.

Although some might mean this is a bad thing,
I believe I can justify it with my ever growing cd collection smile.gif

You should tell your friend to keep on preaching,
and hopefully many more understands that making an album is expensive and time consuming!
I'm soon done recording the demos for my first album,
and although it's gonna be a while before it's done and hopefully released,
I really hope someone's gonna buy it when it's out smile.gif

Posted by: gibsonmatte Dec 9 2009, 09:38 AM

Really strong words from your friend Emir, and I agree to some extent. "Stealing" someones work or production isn't ok in any way. However, the way I see it , the record companies aren't really up to date with the current "music situation" and the way the internet has changed how we look at music and the way music is accessible to us. Like mentioned, it is not ok to "steal" music but since record companies still totally rely on profits coming through record sales I think they need to adapt to current situation.
And for musicians I believe that the biggest income should come through ticket sales, merchandise and stuff like that when playing live.
Artists will continue to sell records but not in the way that they used to and I believe that those days are over. Back in the days, pre-internet, selling records was the biggest way of getting an income. But this isn't how things work today and I don't think it should either. Income should be come through legal downloads, ticket sales, merch and of course album sales. However the main income can't be record sales like we're used too. And this is where I believe the core issues is. Companies and artist still believe that record sales shoudl be the main source of income, but like mentioned those days are over. There gotta be other ways of adapting to the current situation and development.

And regarding "legal downloads" lie iTunes or similar sites this today only seem to be a weak replacement for the loss of album sales. Downloading an album from iTunes isn't really that much cheaper than buying the actual album. I guess the reason for this is that the big record companies are trying to make up for the loss of "real" album sales...

Ok, this is a bit cynical but hopefully you get my point.
I also realize that this is not really what your friend wrote Emir and sorry for stepping on any toes here smile.gif

Posted by: audiopaal Dec 9 2009, 10:37 AM

QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Dec 9 2009, 09:38 AM) *
Really strong words from your friend Emir, and I agree to some extent. "Stealing" someones work or production isn't ok in any way. However, the way I see it , the record companies aren't really up to date with the current "music situation" and the way the internet has changed how we look at music and the way music is accessible to us. Like mentioned, it is not ok to "steal" music but since record companies still totally rely on profits coming through record sales I think they need to adapt to current situation.
And for musicians I believe that the biggest income should come through ticket sales, merchandise and stuff like that when playing live.
Artists will continue to sell records but not in the way that they used to and I believe that those days are over. Back in the days, pre-internet, selling records was the biggest way of getting an income. But this isn't how things work today and I don't think it should either. Income should be come through legal downloads, ticket sales, merch and of course album sales. However the main income can't be record sales like we're used too. And this is where I believe the core issues is. Companies and artist still believe that record sales shoudl be the main source of income, but like mentioned those days are over. There gotta be other ways of adapting to the current situation and development.

And regarding "legal downloads" lie iTunes or similar sites this today only seem to be a weak replacement for the loss of album sales. Downloading an album from iTunes isn't really that much cheaper than buying the actual album. I guess the reason for this is that the big record companies are trying to make up for the loss of "real" album sales...

Ok, this is a bit cynical but hopefully you get my point.
I also realize that this is not really what your friend wrote Emir and sorry for stepping on any toes here smile.gif


Income may very well come from legal downloading, as long as the music industry wakes up and sees the current situation.
The legal downloads is too expensive today, and they need to see that all the "middle men" like cd covers,
printing, shipping, distribution is not a concern with online distribution and mp3's should therefore be cheaper.

Also, artists can sell their albums online themselves like Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails and Pogo Pops and make money without the help of others and therefore make even more money.

This is at a very early stage now, and the music industry have to change with the times.
But it's not ok to steal because their living in the past, so until a better alternative comes along, I will continue to buy my cd's smile.gif

Posted by: jafomatic Dec 9 2009, 11:22 AM

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 9 2009, 03:37 AM) *
Income may very well come from legal downloading


Jack Conte is a decent example of this. Plenty of free content and cheap songs offered online via his own website. His promotion tool? Youtube. You've maybe seen him linked here, some folks seem to credit him with the "invention" of the videosong genre and he's made some popular ones with his girlfriend.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jackcontemusic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Conte

Embedding for impact:


Posted by: ItsMe Dec 9 2009, 01:20 PM

Nice article, strong words. I agree absolutely that illegal downloading is stealing. I always purchase the music I need and try to convince everybody else to do the same. However there is no way that the music business will be profitable and booming like in the old days. Loyal music buyers, like most of us here on the forum, are not the norm and since it is possible to download for free it will always happen. But if you reach enough of the rather thoughtless downloaders and convince them, you might regain enough revenue streams to create a liveable environment for musicians. Still there are many changes in the business and problems that will remain. A change that hurts me a little is that physical copies of albums will become more and more obsolete. Digital copies are the future. This means digital distribution is the most important part of selling an album. Platforms like i-tunes, amazon, musicload and all the other download vendors are where the sales will be created. Problem is that this kills record stores and therefore a big part of the whole world of music that appealed to an elderly guy like me. I loved hanging out in the store, listening to music and carrying a physical copy with the great cover artwork and the booklet home. For me a CD also had some advertisement function. Like a flyer or something similar. A physical representation of the music itself. But the younger generations don't know that anyway and since they are the future buyers they dictate how the business develops. Another problem are flat rates. Most of the younger people I know that are big music geeks and don't want to download illegally still don't buy records. They use some legal flat rate like napster. You can listen to and get most mainstream music there, for 9 Euros a month. Perhaps that’s the real future of the business, but it means that there is no real margin that allows paying decent money to the musicians after everybody else took its share out.
On the other hand there are many positive sides to the development. Independent musicians can distribute their music more easily and reach an audience that was limited to musicians with major label contracts. Everybody on every corner of the world can get the music they want and therefore everybody can participate in the wonderful world of music.
In conclusion I think that the music business we knew is dead but not the music. In the future the musician will not be able to rely on a label to help them with the administrative part of the music making process. From organising a studio, finding distributers to concert booking. This means there will be fewer publications by single artists because they have to carry all the risk and invest allot of time. Time they don't have then for composing, recording and all the rest but on the other hand there will be many new artists popping up all over the place. Creativity of the single artist may suffer because of the pressure on the single artist but other ways of creative expression will develop because of the greater and more global impact. Think of some great youtube acts. In addition I believe that purely internet based labels will be the future. They will help you getting your music on the download platforms and help you with the licensing and perhaps send your music to radio stations. The rest will be up to you. I had a couple of business ideas based on this, but failed to get them done because of financial issues. Now this all exists and I am a little sad sometimes. Anyway all my musicians’ friends live from selling tickets, merchandise and 99% of their album revenues come from i-tunes/amazon/napster or whatever downloads. They can make a living but on the other hand they make rather commercial (they would kill me since they make indie pop, (which by the way is the new mainstream pop smile.gif ) music that has a rather large market even though it tries to appear to be non commercial. So I guess it depends also allot on your style of music. But nevertheless the great penetration of the internet based music business should help everybody. Lets hope that if you raise enough awareness many people will pay for their downloads. But again I think the times when you could get really, really rich with making music are over. If you want to make money you have to be some kind of franchise phenomenon with allot of commercial appeal for other business sectors.

Posted by: CathShadow Dec 9 2009, 02:17 PM

I don't pirate, neither music, nor games. period.. purely because I don't think it's right, and I know the effort that goes into making it.

that said, I think prices are "the Murder of Music", as are the fact that when an album is realeased "World Wide" its not available in all digital stores:

Case in point: Flyleaf. Released world wide. available in itunes. except itunes netherlands.....

Now if I want it, I must import it... at more than double the price...

Now I'm just outrite not gonna buy it. LEAST of all from itunes.

Until I get home to south africa. MAYBE they have the CD there.

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 9 2009, 07:31 PM

Ah well, I wrote a big text but then deleted it. Personally, I am pretty tired of this debate. I don't agree with pirates but I don't agree with distributors either.

Life change, things change and people have to adapt. Majors were unable to adapt to new technologies, now they are paying the price of their incompetences.

It's sad that small independent artists and distributors suffer from this as well but we have already many examples of people who can get their money in good business models on the internet. And I mean good FREE business models with FREE advertising.

But perhaps you will have to forget the big companies doing everything and selling a 10 songs CD for 25$ and giving 1.5$ to the artist. People don't agree with that anymore. It's a revolt.

Piracy existed before the internet and will still exist after the internet. The internet only show and share the truth. Truth about quality, truth about talent, truth about prices, etc...

And in the end, talent is rewarded, anyways.

Posted by: Gus Dec 9 2009, 07:33 PM

Piracy is always a delicate topic. I remember Marcus Siepen created a topic about that with a lot of different opinions...

There is an even worse version of piracy: hard copy pirated CDs. In developing countries, there is still a lot of people who do not have broadband Internet access and therefore they do not download songs. But they do buy pirated versions of CDs. So that means that they pay something, but the money goes to someone else other than the artist/label...

But I do consider that the business model for music industry has to be revised. In my dream world, I would like to be able to pay a fixed amount of money for subscription (of all labels) and be able to listen to any music, any time any where... And the artists would get properly payed by how many times I listen to them...

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 9 2009, 07:47 PM

hey, i have 42 Gigabyte Music ripped from Internet on my computer. i get them from a friend a year ago and do you know what? i never liste to something of that stuff. sure there is great music, but i want to have a original cd, i want to read the lyrics in the little booklet, i want to see pictures of the band and stuff like this. ripped music is without soul for me, i dont like it.
if i need space on my computer i will delate it woithout a second of relutance...


ps: please dont call the cops... huh.gif

Posted by: Fran Dec 9 2009, 07:59 PM

QUOTE (Gus @ Dec 9 2009, 07:33 PM) *
... In my dream world, I would like to be able to pay a fixed amount of money for subscription (of all labels) and be able to listen to any music, any time any where... And the artists would get properly payed by how many times I listen to them...


That's a pretty cool idea.

I have a LastFM subscription, and that's what I listen to most of the time to discover new stuff. If they made it possible to select the exact songs, make playlists etc. and even download your favourite tracks it would be even cooler, and I wouldn't mind paying more for it.

I also used to listen to Pandora back when it was available for those outside US. Loved it.

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 9 2009, 08:05 PM

I would agree with Mirko that ripped music has no "soul" if that's the right word for what we mean. I also like to have lyrics, pictures and a product worth the money. This way I not only enjoy what I bought but also rewarded the artist for his hard work which is what he/she deserves.

I can't really say wether internet is better for music these days or not. It is true that the music is easily accessible to buy with 1 click which is great but at the same time it kills motivation in many artists because of illegal file sharing. According to reviews of my album, number of fans on myspace/facebook, distribution and many other facts, I can predict that there are around 20.000 or more pirated copies of my album. If I got the money from half of it I would have had the third album released by now. This way I am not thinking of doing another one as I only got about 7% in return which is not fair at all. That was nearly 2 years of hard work and in the end it was all pointless. This is how an artist loses his motivation to move on and that's an awful thing in my oppinion.

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 9 2009, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 9 2009, 08:05 PM) *
I would agree with Mirko that ripped music has no "soul" if that's the right word for what we mean. I also like to have lyrics, pictures and a product worth the money. This way I not only enjoy what I bought but also rewarded the artist for his hard work which is what he/she deserves.

I can't really say wether internet is better for music these days or not. It is true that the music is easily accessible to buy with 1 click which is great but at the same time it kills motivation in many artists because of illegal file sharing. According to reviews of my album, number of fans on myspace/facebook, distribution and many other facts, I can predict that there are around 20.000 or more pirated copies of my album. If I got the money from half of it I would have had the third album released by now. This way I am not thinking of doing another one as I only got about 7% in return which is not fair at all. That was nearly 2 years of hard work and in the end it was all pointless. This is how an artist loses his motivation to move on and that's an awful thing in my oppinion.


hm, i think i have to buy your cd emir! i hope there is a cool cover and nice words in the booklet! im sure your playing is worth that money!

Posted by: ItsMe Dec 9 2009, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Gus @ Dec 9 2009, 07:33 PM) *
In my dream world, I would like to be able to pay a fixed amount of money for subscription (of all labels) and be able to listen to any music, any time any where... And the artists would get properly payed by how many times I listen to them...



QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 9 2009, 07:59 PM) *
That's a pretty cool idea.

I have a LastFM subscription, and that's what I listen to most of the time to discover new stuff. If they made it possible to select the exact songs, make playlists etc. and even download your favourite tracks it would be even cooler, and I wouldn't mind paying more for it.

I also used to listen to Pandora back when it was available for those outside US. Loved it
.




I don't like it but its a legal flat rate for $ 5 http://free.napster.com/subscribe/
its 9 Euros in Europe as I wrote in my earlier text

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 9 2009, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (MirkoSchmidt @ Dec 9 2009, 07:09 PM) *
hm, i think i have to buy your cd emir! i hope there is a cool cover and nice words in the booklet! im sure your playing is worth that money!

The purpose of my post wasn't to make someone buy my album smile.gif It was just my oppinion about illegal downloads. But I appreciate whoever buy is smile.gif Of course there are lyrics, cool cover, some pics etc...

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 9 2009, 08:36 PM

Emir, I am really interested to know the policies of the contract you signed with Lion Music.

For example, are you allowed to create your own distribution system on emirhot.com ? Are you allowed to add a "Click here to donate" button on your website ? Or to give some free sample of your album ? Or perhaps even to create your own "shop" ?

Do you know how many visitors you have on your website ? And did you ever asked them if they would be happy to give directly to you a few bucks for what you do ?

Because, you know your songs are everywhere on the web, for free, then what's the matter in selling them on your website, DRM free, subscription free ? The people who are not ready to pay 20€ for your CD are perhaps ready to pay 10€ for it.

Another question, where can I buy the MP3s of your album on Lion Music ? I cannot find that. smile.gif

I went to legaldownload.net and made a search with your name. I got one result, clicked on the link and fall on a full page of artists I don't care about...

Perhaps, what all those guys need is a good Internet consultant. You know what I mean ? wink.gif

No offense. But perhaps your product is not very well advertised and sold as well.

PS : There are no link for your old albums, if you have the MP3 of those, why not selling them ? smile.gif

Posted by: ItsMe Dec 9 2009, 08:47 PM

Emir what do you think about streaming flatrates. How much do you earn. I guess its like radio royalties ?

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 9 2009, 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 9 2009, 07:36 PM) *
Emir, I am really interested to know the policies of the contract you signed with Lion Music.

That's the contract similar to what every signed metal artist have. Lion Music is one of 5 biggest metal labels in Europe.

QUOTE
For example, are you allowed to create your own distribution system on emirhot.com ? Are you allowed to add a "Click here to donate" button on your website ? Or to give some free sample of your album ? Or perhaps even to create your own "shop" ?

There is BUY NOW button below the CD picture on my website. That takes you directly to Lion Music web store. You also have some 1 min samples from the CD to listen. I am not allowed to sell it myself but I can get the special price from the label to sell it when I am on the tour and take all the profit. I did get free number of copies when the album was released. Every 6 months I get share from sales plus other stuff like sublicencing, publishing etc...

QUOTE
Do you know how many visitors you have on your website ? And did you ever asked them if they would be happy to give directly to you a few bucks for what you do ?

Yes I do. There are average about 3000 visitors per month. I never asked for few bucks smile.gif I don't think I will do that. My label paid me initial fee when I got the contract which covered some costs of the studio work.

QUOTE
Because, you know your songs are everywhere on the web, for free, then what's the matter in selling them on your website, DRM free, subscription free ? The people who are not ready to pay 20€ for your CD are perhaps ready to pay 10€ for it.

Well it costs around 14 EUR and I think that's the normal price for the metal album. I pay that money for everything similar I buy. On some sites you can get it even few euros cheaper. Mp3 is less then 10 EUR on many sites. Try Itunes.

QUOTE
Another question, where can I buy the MP3s of your album on Lion Music ? I cannot find that. smile.gif

CDbaby, Itunes, Amazon, Lion Music, Guitar9 and many many more... http://www.lionmusic.com/shop/H/Hot,_Emir.htm. The regular distribution of hard copies is done in about 60 countries worldwide. The label is doing a great job with distribution. Also the promotion was done in all famous metal magazines worldwide. I've done about 200 interviews for those. I found my CD in shops in London when the album was released. I don't think they are in shops anymore but I received emails that people bought it in normal CD shops in Australia, USA, Brazil, Europe ...

QUOTE
I went to legaldownload.net and made a search with your name. I got one result, clicked on the link and fall on a full page of artists I don't care about...

I don't know about that website, sorry.

QUOTE
PS : There are no link for your old albums, if you have the MP3 of those, why not selling them ? smile.gif

Those are 10 or more years old albums. They are out of print and even I am not able to buy them anywhere. Also those labels don't exest anymore.

Posted by: audiopaal Dec 9 2009, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 9 2009, 09:01 PM) *
Those are 10 or more years old albums. They are out of print and even I am not able to buy them anywhere. Also those labels don't exest anymore.

Don't you have any mp3's of them? smile.gif
I'd buy them if you had, would be very interresting to hear smile.gif

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 9 2009, 10:39 PM

legaldownload.net seems to be the site use by Lion Music to sell MP3s of their music. smile.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 10 2009, 12:15 AM

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 9 2009, 08:22 PM) *
Don't you have any mp3's of them? smile.gif
I'd buy them if you had, would be very interresting to hear smile.gif

No, I only have a couple of original CDs and that's all. That stuff is really early days. I don't mind giving these for free smile.gif Check torrents maybe someone has them.

QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 9 2009, 09:39 PM) *
legaldownload.net seems to be the site use by Lion Music to sell MP3s of their music. smile.gif

Well I don't know about that but the link I gave you doesn't take you to legaldownloads. It takes you to my label's site with paypal checkout system.

QUOTE (ItsMe @ Dec 9 2009, 07:47 PM) *
Emir what do you think about streaming flatrates. How much do you earn. I guess its like radio royalties ?

Well I don't earn much for sure but maybe big pop stars do. I have heard the stories that the companies like Itunes earn more than the artist which is not fair either.

Posted by: Ctodd Dec 10 2009, 12:18 AM

I would rather give my money directly to the artist than have some record label dip their hand in.

Also, a few weeks ago I had to reformat my computer due to viruses and stuff. I lost ALL my music (which wasnt actually that much that I had on my computer), but it was all music that I had paid for. So what did I do to get back what I had already paid for?

guess...

Posted by: audiopaal Dec 10 2009, 12:25 AM

I checked some torrent sites but couldn't find it I'm afraid, which is a good thing smile.gif

Could I tempt you into burning them for me on cds and ship them to me?
I'd pay for it of course smile.gif

I'm really interrested in how much better your old stuff is compared to my new stuff laugh.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 10 2009, 09:46 AM

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 9 2009, 11:25 PM) *
I checked some torrent sites but couldn't find it I'm afraid, which is a good thing smile.gif

Could I tempt you into burning them for me on cds and ship them to me?
I'd pay for it of course smile.gif

I'm really interrested in how much better your old stuff is compared to my new stuff laugh.gif

ok we can do that via PM. This is free of charge smile.gif

Posted by: gibsonmatte Dec 10 2009, 12:07 PM

QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 9 2009, 07:59 PM) *
That's a pretty cool idea.

I have a LastFM subscription, and that's what I listen to most of the time to discover new stuff. If they made it possible to select the exact songs, make playlists etc. and even download your favourite tracks it would be even cooler, and I wouldn't mind paying more for it.

I also used to listen to Pandora back when it was available for those outside US. Loved it.


There are some sites where you can listen to music from lots of different labels like grooveshark.com and lala.com. In SE we also have something called Spotify. Similar to grooveshark but you have to download a client. These are all free but you have to either listen to commercials or see the "banners" on the sites. For a small amount you can register and get rid of the commercials, like a subscription.

Posted by: Mandos Dec 10 2009, 01:20 PM

Just a little side note. Take a look at this http://labs.timesonline.co.uk/blog/2009/11/12/do-music-artists-do-better-in-a-world-with-illegal-file-sharing/.

QUOTE
An even more striking thing, perhaps, emerges in this second graph, namely that revenues accrued by artists themselves have in fact risen over the past 5 years, despite the fall in record sales. (All the blue bars in the chart above represent revenues that go directly to artists. As you can see, the ‘blue total’ has risen noticeably.) This is mostly because of live revenues, but also because of the growing amount collected by the PRS on behalf of artists, which accounts for a much bigger chunk of industry revenues than most people realise.

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 10 2009, 02:20 PM

Very interesting Mandos, thanks for the link ! smile.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 10 2009, 04:56 PM

Since this seems to be a "hot" topic, I will give my response to the issue. I have some experience from the industry as well as beeing a musician and a studio owner back in the old days.

In my opinion, things are evolving very fast at the moment, and makes radical changes on the market for record distrubution. The only one's who really looses this battle is the big record companys, who cant make money for nothing anymore. Internet is really improving the link between the musicians and their audience, without a big company taking all the revenue. The sales of music has to be reformed in a way where the musicians get a decent percentage of the revenue instead of peanuts from the companies... (Michael Jackson had some 5 % on "Thriller", which is considered to be high....) Also there will be more room for small indepndent labels to make great music as well as artists selling directly to the customers - which is good.

More positive things:

1. The musicians have to benefit from playing live and hence selling their records on the concerts. This is good for both the music itself and the musicians, since all the "plastic" artists will disappear by nature since they are not performing live.

2. The competition amongst musicians will increase - this will enhance the quality of music.

3. Since the musicians will put a lot more effort in to their live act - we are supposed to find a larger number of artists on stage, and the range of venues will increase imo. Also it will be much more attractive to listen to music live, rather than just buy a record.

4. The record business itself will suffer hard from loosing their revenues - but in contrast, the power and the rights management will be handled by the musicians, which is incredible good!!!

This is my opinions in the topic and since the Record Company's have behaved like bloodsuckers against both the customers and the musicians, Im not taking bout the small and indepedent one here, they really had helped to build up this situation by themselves!!!

//Staffay

Posted by: Daniel Realpe Dec 10 2009, 08:21 PM

We live in a world under the monetary system that "rewards" work/value with money. So if you think you are getting value out of music then you should pay for it. But as so many things in the system they get corrupted.

We should cut the middle man and pay the artists directly that would motivate people I think. Something like NIN did.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 11 2009, 01:19 AM

The industry has changed upside down simply put. What was once charged (carrier media with music), now is completely free. It's just a matter of accepting that and finding other ways of earning money as musicians and artists. The record companies are finished story, nothing more to tell there. Money is today made out of author rights payments (broadcasting TV and radio payments, although when the Internet really kicks in, no more of these as well), gigs, band merchandise, other band jobs (advertising, private gigs etc..). This is the only way of incomes for the band.
The rule of the game is still the same tho: make a hit song, spread out your music, be famous and you will get the opportunity to use the fame to gain profit.

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 11 2009, 02:26 AM

I would dissagree on some of these since I felt it on my "own skin". No offence Staffy, just my oppinion

QUOTE
1. The musicians have to benefit from playing live and hence selling their records on the concerts. This is good for both the music itself and the musicians, since all the "plastic" artists will disappear by nature since they are not performing live.

I partly agree here. It is good to play live as much as possible, we all enjoy that, but we also have to have time for some private life. I understood that you're saying that music should be like job from 9am 'till 5pm everyday in order to make enough for living. I am supporting the idea of playing one 2 months tour in a year plus some festivals. That would make you profit for the next 6 months and the proper album sales for another 6 months until you release new album. We have to find some time for ourselves as well as for writting music at home, not on the road. You said people should buy our albums on the tour. How can one come to see the show if he doesn't know the songs from the new album. I would first buy the album then go to see the show. Just my oppinion.

QUOTE
2. The competition amongst musicians will increase - this will enhance the quality of music.

Well, because of the situation, many don't play proper live shows. There is no competition anymore. I am seeing legends like Neil Murray from old Whitesnake as well as hundreds of famous guys all over London playing pub gigs for £70 per evening. That's really sad. How can I enhance the quality of my music if I don't have money to make good stuff in the studio? Studios are really expensive if you're going for something that can compare with top trends.

QUOTE
3. Since the musicians will put a lot more effort in to their live act - we are supposed to find a larger number of artists on stage, and the range of venues will increase imo. Also it will be much more attractive to listen to music live, rather than just buy a record.

It is always cool to see your favorite band live but I hardly see my favorite ones. The ones that used to play in front of 100.000 people are now playing in front of 1000 or less people. The real examples are Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Whitesnake and rock legends like that. These bands are all from the UK and only 5% of people in this country nowadays know some of their songs. Because of the new "modern music revolution" no one is buying their concert tickets nor the albums. They can only have 5000 of more thousands of people in countries where they never played. That was proved in Serbia, Bosinia and Croatia where they had 10.000 people in each country a couple of years ago. I am 100% sure if they come again next year they wouldn't have 1500. That's more than sad. 7 days ago I saw Gary Moore in front of 300 people.

QUOTE
4. The record business itself will suffer hard from loosing their revenues - but in contrast, the power and the rights management will be handled by the musicians, which is incredible good!!!

If I was trying to promote music myself (without my label), nobody would ever hear about me. For example in my case - my label's power, contacts, distribution, promotion etc... is something that they have been building for the last 15 years. There is no way I would be reviewed, interviewed and distributed in all world famous rock/metal magazines/webzines and countries without their help. I've tried this before and everytime my CD finished in a rubbish bin. When these guys send an email or a phonecall, things are done in a second. I wouldn't be able to manage that myself, that's just not possible.


To conclude. These independant labels with some history are a great help for artists. They do it all for you. You just cannot dream of getting publicity and distribution the way they can do it. The problem is that people don't buy stuff. People illegaly download music and artists suffer. I am not against internet distribution but please tell me, what does Itunes have to do with my music and why people have to buy stuff there? Just because Apple made good commercial campaign and now taking billions from artist's hard work - all that just because they're called Itunes. They didn't exist when Beatles were making music, now they are taking profit because they are selling their songs. I will never agree with that and that's why I will never buy an Ipod or an Apple Mac - even though I think their computers are great.

Posted by: jafomatic Dec 11 2009, 03:39 AM

This is a perfect time to mention again that musicians that are succeeding now are using alternate promotion tools. Go look at Orianthi's career which took a HUGE swing up because after michael jackon's death she kept herself visible. Where?

Facebook and Twitter. I'm sure there's also a myspace following as well.

Or you can look at pomplamoose (jack conte & his girlfriend) plying their trade, successfully, on youtube. They abandoned myspace and have doubled their following by covering popular (not necessarily "pop" but some of that too) songs on youtube so they'd show up in searches. Then you also get to see that "oh, they have some originals" and bam, they become featured.

The lesson in all of that poorly-written monologue is that the WHOLE point is to look beyond the magazines of the 70's and 80's. They're not the only tool.

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 11 2009, 04:02 AM

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Dec 11 2009, 02:39 AM) *
This is a perfect time to mention again that musicians that are succeeding now are using alternate promotion tools. Go look at Orianthi's career which took a HUGE swing up because after michael jackon's death she kept herself visible. Where?

Facebook and Twitter. I'm sure there's also a myspace following as well.

Or you can look at pomplamoose (jack conte & his girlfriend) plying their trade, successfully, on youtube. They abandoned myspace and have doubled their following by covering popular (not necessarily "pop" but some of that too) songs on youtube so they'd show up in searches. Then you also get to see that "oh, they have some originals" and bam, they become featured.

The lesson in all of that poorly-written monologue is that the WHOLE point is to look beyond the magazines of the 70's and 80's. They're not the only tool.

I said I am not against internet promotion and distribution apart from some companies that are making money for doing nothing (if you read my previous post about Itunes).

If you believe that what you've said can make an artist make a living of music by himself then try this:

1. Spend a year writting songs/lyrics/arrangements
2. Spend a month or two recording a demo for it
3. Spend 2 months rehearsing songs for the real recording
4. Call some good musicians to play on your real record and pay them (In my case I needed a good drummer and singer if I wanted some genuine rock stuff, because of these famous guys I actually sold something)
5. Find a good studio and spend another 3-4 months for the recording/mixing - and of course pay for it
6. Put your songs on Twiter, Youtube, Myspace etc...

Please tell me after 2 years of hard work how much did you earn and how much did you spend?

Posted by: jafomatic Dec 11 2009, 04:14 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 10 2009, 09:02 PM) *
6. Put your songs on Twiter, Youtube, Myspace etc...


They put covers on youtube, properly tagged, for marketing. They played and recorded everything themselves in their bedroom studios and they're selling mp3's of their originals through their own website.

There's the way that those two (the pomplamoose folks) learned to embrace the new tools. Here's how I'd do it if I were you:

1. Sign up to do a few of the "famous song" lessons for GMC, especially shreddy ones that people would search for on youtube
2. Properly tag the videos that you copy to youtube
3. Frequently update the social networking feed of your choice with relevant stuff "In the studio recording new blah blah, here's a link to a pic of us jamming, blah blah"
4. more importantly, also update those streams with "we're going to be playing at such-and-such club this weekend."
5. Email jack conte and ask how he set up his one-page e-commerce site to sell his own music.
6. Do that.

You have an edge on that Conte guy, in that you are a better trained musician and more able technician on your chosen instrment. He may have an edge (or two) in that he seems to have no day job and can play a ton of instruments. He has a small disadvantage that his girlfriend's voice gets really annoying after a few songs. smile.gif

The point is that they appear to have found a way to "make it" work. I'm sorry that they didn't go through the same amount of pain that you did. I respectfully disagree that your posted list is "the only way" but in any event, I really hope that I didn't tick you off.




Posted by: blindwillie Dec 11 2009, 09:06 AM

I have the greatest respect for you Emir but I disagre with this part:

QUOTE
If you believe that what you've said can make an artist make a living of music by himself then try this:

1. Spend a year writting songs/lyrics/arrangements
2. Spend a month or two recording a demo for it
3. Spend 2 months rehearsing songs for the real recording
4. Call some good musicians to play on your real record and pay them (In my case I needed a good drummer and singer if I wanted some genuine rock stuff, because of these famous guys I actually sold something)
5. Find a good studio and spend another 3-4 months for the recording/mixing - and of course pay for it
6. Put your songs on Twiter, Youtube, Myspace etc...

Please tell me after 2 years of hard work how much did you earn and how much did you spend?

This implies that you expect that _anybody_ following your plan should be guaranteed big success.
I think you know very well that's not the way things work. As in _any_ profession, you have to find a big enough group of customers that's appealed by whatever you are selling. The fact that you have a plan and have or have not certain skills in an area and have put in a certain amount of effort is in no way, and have never been, a guarantee to success, not even enough to get a descent job. Put it in perspective to other professions. It's not important what you want or how you want to do it. What's important is how the guys with the money wants it.

It is not a matter of if I can succed with your plan or not. The point is that there are artists that HAVE succeded indepent from the big labels. (Well, success is in the eye of the beholder. They don't have their own Neverland, but themself consider it a success)
Maybe there is something wrong with your plan? Maybe you have to change your musical style?
Being a succesful, rich, famous guitarist in a world that isn't really into guitarbased music is a tough task. And with thousands and thousands and thousands of great, very skilled guitarists it will be very hard to find your own space out there.

And there is nothing special with ex-superstars playing on pubs for a living. Should a relative short time of success guarantee you to live the rest of your life in welth? It's very sad to see, I agree with that, but that's the outcome of the short life cycle of everything now. We think we have to get new things and distractions all the time. Buy ourselfs happy. This way of living is a disadvantage for the "good" artists, the ones with skills. Those who gain from it are the "shooting stars" that fade away as quick as they appeared. We just want the very very latest, give me something new all the the time, more and more and more.

Posted by: Staffy Dec 11 2009, 10:07 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:26 AM) *
I would dissagree on some of these since I felt it on my "own skin". No offence Staffy, just my oppinion


I partly agree here. It is good to play live as much as possible, we all enjoy that, but we also have to have time for some private life. I understood that you're saying that music should be like job from 9am 'till 5pm everyday in order to make enough for living. I am supporting the idea of playing one 2 months tour in a year plus some festivals. That would make you profit for the next 6 months and the proper album sales for another 6 months until you release new album. We have to find some time for ourselves as well as for writting music at home, not on the road. You said people should buy our albums on the tour. How can one come to see the show if he doesn't know the songs from the new album. I would first buy the album then go to see the show. Just my oppinion.


Well, because of the situation, many don't play proper live shows. There is no competition anymore. I am seeing legends like Neil Murray from old Whitesnake as well as hundreds of famous guys all over London playing pub gigs for £70 per evening. That's really sad. How can I enhance the quality of my music if I don't have money to make good stuff in the studio? Studios are really expensive if you're going for something that can compare with top trends.


It is always cool to see your favorite band live but I hardly see my favorite ones. The ones that used to play in front of 100.000 people are now playing in front of 1000 or less people. The real examples are Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Whitesnake and rock legends like that. These bands are all from the UK and only 5% of people in this country nowadays know some of their songs. Because of the new "modern music revolution" no one is buying their concert tickets nor the albums. They can only have 5000 of more thousands of people in countries where they never played. That was proved in Serbia, Bosinia and Croatia where they had 10.000 people in each country a couple of years ago. I am 100% sure if they come again next year they wouldn't have 1500. That's more than sad. 7 days ago I saw Gary Moore in front of 300 people.


If I was trying to promote music myself (without my label), nobody would ever hear about me. For example in my case - my label's power, contacts, distribution, promotion etc... is something that they have been building for the last 15 years. There is no way I would be reviewed, interviewed and distributed in all world famous rock/metal magazines/webzines and countries without their help. I've tried this before and everytime my CD finished in a rubbish bin. When these guys send an email or a phonecall, things are done in a second. I wouldn't be able to manage that myself, that's just not possible.


To conclude. These independant labels with some history are a great help for artists. They do it all for you. You just cannot dream of getting publicity and distribution the way they can do it. The problem is that people don't buy stuff. People illegaly download music and artists suffer. I am not against internet distribution but please tell me, what does Itunes have to do with my music and why people have to buy stuff there? Just because Apple made good commercial campaign and now taking billions from artist's hard work - all that just because they're called Itunes. They didn't exist when Beatles were making music, now they are taking profit because they are selling their songs. I will never agree with that and that's why I will never buy an Ipod or an Apple Mac - even though I think their computers are great.


Nah, Im not sticky... smile.gif Its an interesting discussion, and we all have our thoughts about this... but I still dont agree to some of Your arguments, with no offense... tongue.gif

I can see the point in some of Your arguments, but I think the situation I speaking of will occur in the future, it has already begun here in Seden imo. My friends that was completely out of work in the 80's started to earn money again on just live gigs, playing "sophisticated" music like jazz & blues. And they even get paid! When I was touring back in the 80's we had lousy wages, we had to play the latest hit songs - which was impossible because of all fake production in the studios and no one was happy, nor we, nor the audience. If we shall speak of what really killed live music back then, its MTV. The music scene in my area has never been so active as at the moment, there is plenty of concerts with good bands. Deep Purple was here a while ago, playing in a small town, that would never happen 20 years back since they were just doing the arena gigs.

I think the main issue here is what You expect from music - there is really one big important question:
Are You playing music to be a millionaire or for the love of music? To do the first, You must be extremely lucky and have a good timing with the actual trends, even that You might be a superstar on Your instrument. Also music evolves much faster today than before, and You won't probably last for that long the "old" artists done. But if You are satisfied with putting food on the table, feeding the kids and have a decent living - then there is more opportunities than ever before in the music business imo.

To comment what You said in the beginning, I dont mean that it shall be like a 9-5 job, it has never been and will never be, but the musicians must find new ways to sell their music and new way's to make a living out of it. You are talking bout the "old" situation where bands tour a little, record an album and then had a vacation and then went from the beginning again. This is really obsolete imo. and must change, a musician today must be ready to play whenever its necessary in order to promote the music - otherwise there will be no record sales or tickets sold. The bands You mention is really bad examples imo. since they got out of date many years ago... (even that I personally love them and think its sad that a great guitar player like Gary Moore have to play in front of 300 people) I was trying to broaden the discussion to music in general and its future role in society.

The fact is really that the kids are downloading music for free, I dont personally support it - I buy the records I like in order to support the artists, but I'm thinking of sending the money directly to the artists instead of buying their records since their record labels are eating the money anyway. And i disagree with You about first buying the record and then see the band live - I believe that the kids today are most likely to see some cool vids on Youtube, download some songs illegaly and then watch the band. Maybe then at the concert they will buy the record.....

Also its not a big issue anymore to record a great album since the studio costs gone down drastically the past 10-20 years, in the 80's You paid bout 800/hour for a top-notch studio. Today You can get it for much less! I will say that it is possible to record an album for some 2-4000$ and that is peanuts today compared to what the marketing will cost. But hey! If we record the album, give it away free at the internet to promote our coming tour, maybe then would some people come and see us??? I think thats the way its gonna be, it wont suit everybody but at least there will be one unnecessary link removed - the big record companys.

I agree to You about the small independent labels though - and there will be much more room for them in the future, there's no need to have some Sony/CBS or Warner Brothers label to make a success, just some hard work, talent and good music. The future is to me very exciting and I see the Internet vs. the record industry as a big issue that will change the way music is consumed forever.

//Staffay

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 11 2009, 01:56 PM

QUOTE (blindwillie @ Dec 11 2009, 08:06 AM) *
This implies that you expect that _anybody_ following your plan should be guaranteed big success.

No, I didn't say that smile.gif That was my reply to Jafomatic's post where I understood that if you're selling stuff yourself, using youtube and appear in search engines would have a better result that being a signed artist where someone else is helping you with promotion and the rest. Then I suggested the list of things to try and see if that's a real formula for success. I think it is not.

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 11 2009, 09:07 AM) *
The bands You mention is really bad examples imo. since they got out of date many years ago...

smile.gif I mentioned the ones that I think are worth mentioning if we're talking about rock legends and the quality of music. Unlike Nirvana and similar bands that killed everything that was good in 90's, these bands know how to hold C major chord at least smile.gif The point is that they are all from the UK and I got shocked when one of my guitar teachers at university in London didn't know that Smoke on the Water is Deep Purple song. The guy has masters degree for guitar. If I had to learn to play guitar from Nirvana-like bands, I would have never become a guitarist. All you hear in my playing comes from the bands I mentioned. That's of course in my case.

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 11 2009, 02:16 PM

QUOTE
It is always cool to see your favorite band live but I hardly see my favorite ones. The ones that used to play in front of 100.000 people are now playing in front of 1000 or less people. The real examples are Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Whitesnake and rock legends like that. These bands are all from the UK and only 5% of people in this country nowadays know some of their songs. Because of the new "modern music revolution" no one is buying their concert tickets nor the albums. They can only have 5000 of more thousands of people in countries where they never played. That was proved in Serbia, Bosinia and Croatia where they had 10.000 people in each country a couple of years ago. I am 100% sure if they come again next year they wouldn't have 1500. That's more than sad. 7 days ago I saw Gary Moore in front of 300 people.


Don't really see the point here.

Young people listen to hip hop, rap, rnb and those kind of styles. It's pretty normal that Gary Moore and Deep Purple can't fill the concert halls anymore. And I am a fan of Gary Moore. smile.gif

But U2, Radiohead and Pearl Jam still play in front of 100'000 people and do live concerts on YouTube...

The modern music revolution came because of the majors and other money makers who want more bands, more music, more concerts, more money... Internet is a tool which help to broadcast easily and share information. But the majors forgot that people were able to speak to each other easily and to broadcast as well.

Majors are trying to make the people pay to broadcast and share. But that's old fashioned. You cannot do that the same way you ask a supermarket to pay licence to broadcast music in front of the butcher shop.

People have to re-think the way they are earning money *with* the internet.
But you have to stop thinking of the good old days. They are over.

All the big old media companies are complaining today. Newspaper, book sellers, TV stations, guitar teachers ?, etc... The day they will all be bankrupted (except the guitar teachers obviously wink.gif) the market will perhaps be much more sane.

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM

QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 11 2009, 01:16 PM) *
Young people listen to hip hop, rap, rnb and those kind of styles. It's pretty normal that Gary Moore and Deep Purple can't fill the concert halls anymore.

Exactly smile.gif So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday? Shall we start making hip-hop music or there is a way to make a living of music that we spent years learning? I think that decision to be musician nowadays is the most risky move you can make. All these posts in this thread are actually showing what I was hoping to see and that's why I am not even trying to continue with music professionaly. I like my guitar and I am happy to play small clubs and teach but no way I can live of that. I wish I was a plumber smile.gif These guys are making serious money.

Posted by: audiopaal Dec 11 2009, 02:41 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM) *
All these posts in this thread are actually showing what I was hoping to see and that's why I am not even trying to continue with music professionaly.

That's unfortunate, as I believe your songwriting skills (from hearing your album) is amazing.
But you'll record another album hopefully!? smile.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 11 2009, 02:44 PM

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Dec 11 2009, 01:41 PM) *
That's unfortunate, as I believe your songwriting skills (from hearing your album) is amazing.
But you'll record another album hopefully!? smile.gif

No more loans for investing in that mate smile.gif We need to eat.

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 11 2009, 02:47 PM

QUOTE
So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday?


Actually, I am working 8 hours a day and practicing 2 hours so I make serious money. wink.gif

But well, I agree, it's a sad story. I'd say, what's important is to enjoy what you do but that certainly sounds a bit romantic. tongue.gif


Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 11 2009, 02:54 PM

QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 11 2009, 01:47 PM) *
what's important is to enjoy what you do but that certainly sounds a bit romantic. tongue.gif

And that's all we can have smile.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 11 2009, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 01:56 PM) *
No, I didn't say that smile.gif That was my reply to Jafomatic's post where I understood that if you're selling stuff yourself, using youtube and appear in search engines would have a better result that being a signed artist where someone else is helping you with promotion and the rest. Then I suggested the list of things to try and see if that's a real formula for success. I think it is not.


I agree with Emir here, although the situation is not black & white. Today, labels are still strong and can advertise artists better than they can do for themselves. But as the time passes by and times are changing, some artists emerge and become famous solely on the means of internet free self promotion. This was not possible before, and labels understand that they have no control over that area, they never did because that area doesn't give them what they are after - profit. As they get less and less money from record sales, they are signing many more artists with less sales to increase profit. This watering down will produce greater number of signed small artists, and they can soon become equal to the artists that choose for the indy label. The labels of the future will shift their interest to Internet and battle will continue there. It has already started, as big labels are trying to kill the free services. They are not doing this just to eliminate piracy, they are doing this to create monopoly once again. But this time, I don't think they can succeed. Internet is way to open to control it.

Posted by: jafomatic Dec 11 2009, 03:08 PM

Apparently the labels can't advertise well enough. I think that's what all this compels me to believe. Deep purple can't fill a hall? Then deep purple didn't adapt. Some guy only wants to fill a club instead of using his songwriting ability to sell popsongs back to those labels? Someone else not adapting!

It just seems like more proof that it's always been better to adapt than to hold fast and die.


Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 11 2009, 03:17 PM

Hard to come up with a solution to that problem.
Anything you can listen to or view on-line is
recordable using certain software. Making it less
accessible without a purchase might help some,
but then again there's a file sharing issue.

Perhaps only selling the demo, and making the
album accessible to concert attendees only (or
to be included with the purchase price of the
ticket sales), along with whatever other band
memorabilia is available. Pirating might then
be more conspicuous to any one releasing any
illegal copies on-line or otherwise. I don't
know, maybe it's impossible to fully prevent
pirating, but am sure there is an intelligent
solution that could tip the scales more
favorably to the musicians. Anyway,
sorry to hear that. dry.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 11 2009, 03:23 PM

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Dec 11 2009, 03:08 PM) *
Apparently the labels can't advertise well enough. I think that's what all this compels me to believe. Deep purple can't fill a hall? Then deep purple didn't adapt. Some guy only wants to fill a club instead of using his songwriting ability to sell popsongs back to those labels? Someone else not adapting!

It just seems like more proof that it's always been better to adapt than to hold fast and die.


It depends my friend. The labels do a lot in terms of advertising, what independent artists simply cannot afford. TV and radio commercials being one part of that. No way independent artist could get a TV ad by himself, it's too expensive. I'm no expert in the record label business tho, but I think they can do better for the signed artists in present time. On the other hand, I said clearly that they are monopolists with profit on their mind, so that explains WHY they put so much effort. Artist sign because they want promotion, and promotion is easily get via labels, with some guarantee, as opposed to little guarantee when choosing to go alone. It's a hard road that artists will rarely choose. I think most artists would join big label if they had a chance, because they understand that promotion is there, and they can spread out their music without needing to do that job for themselves.
Regarding Deep Purple, they are an old band, that was on top of their career a while ago. People are interested in a bit different music today, it's the way things flow. Constant change is important for humans, the music is not holding place, it's changing form all the time. This is why they cannot fill the halls.

Posted by: audiopaal Dec 11 2009, 03:38 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:44 PM) *
No more loans for investing in that mate smile.gif We need to eat.

I know what you mean...
Still unfortunate though sad.gif

I can record everything I need at home, except for drums..
So hopefully the studiotime won't be too expensive when I decide to lay down some real drums smile.gif

Hehe, I already know I'll never get back the money I spent on studiogear but hopefully some people will like what I write.
If not, I'll just have to release a Hip Hop album laugh.gif
Audiopaal & the 2 hip 2 hops feat. Emir Hot & the stringbenders tongue.gif

Jokes aside though, I really hope you'll make some money off your music in the future!
You deserve that much smile.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 11 2009, 03:40 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 01:56 PM) *
smile.gif I mentioned the ones that I think are worth mentioning if we're talking about rock legends and the quality of music. Unlike Nirvana and similar bands that killed everything that was good in 90's, these bands know how to hold C major chord at least smile.gif The point is that they are all from the UK and I got shocked when one of my guitar teachers at university in London didn't know that Smoke on the Water is Deep Purple song. The guy has masters degree for guitar. If I had to learn to play guitar from Nirvana-like bands, I would have never become a guitarist. All you hear in my playing comes from the bands I mentioned. That's of course in my case.


I will definitely agree to this, Steve Lukather said in an interview in the late 90's that "I haven't heard a new band with a good guitar player since 1982...", but the point here is that if You wanna make the "big" money, song-writing and beeing member of a band that hits the top 40 is the way to go. I think there's still room for great guitar playing in the new styles that are emerging, but as someone else said here: the old days are gone! But it is also a question of trends, maybe in some years we will have a 70's revival or 80's ... (which I personally NOT longing for sad.gif ) Everything is really a balance between Your own imagination bout music and the commercial aspects. All musicians have to "sell out" themselves a little bit, it's just a question of how much..... Personally I quitted working professionally long time ago since I felt like a prostitute - just playing what people wanted to hear, not what I was liking myself. Its all about to find a balance really.

QUOTE
I agree with Emir here, although the situation is not black & white. Today, labels are still strong and can advertise artists better than they can do for themselves. But as the time passes by and times are changing, some artists emerge and become famous solely on the means of internet free self promotion. This was not possible before, and labels understand that they have no control over that area, they never did because that area doesn't give them what they are after - profit. As they get less and less money from record sales, they are signing many more artists with less sales to increase profit. This watering down will produce greater number of signed small artists, and they can soon become equal to the artists that choose for the indy label. The labels of the future will shift their interest to Internet and battle will continue there. It has already started, as big labels are trying to kill the free services. They are not doing this just to eliminate piracy, they are doing this to create monopoly once again. But this time, I don't think they can succeed. Internet is way to open to control it.


I couldn't have said this better myself, but in my belief the battle has just started, we're gonna see drastic changes in how music is to be distrubuted, consumed and spread through the internet. And this will benefit the really GOOD musicians in my belief, such as Emir smile.gif The one's who can't play or sing and has been pitch-shifted in the control, they will simply be gone in the future. Thanks heaven for that!!!! biggrin.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: Keilnoth Dec 11 2009, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 11 2009, 03:23 PM) *
It depends my friend. The labels do a lot in terms of advertising, what independent artists simply cannot afford. TV and radio commercials being one part of that. No way independent artist could get a TV ad by himself, it's too expensive.


I personnaly never discovered any *good* band on a TV commercial. smile.gif
Perhaps some on the radio. But way lot more on GMC, by friends or on Youtube...


Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 12 2009, 03:17 AM

Perhaps you can name the bands and we can discuss the situation further?

Posted by: kahall Dec 12 2009, 06:38 AM

I don't know if it is my age, the internet, or I just don't have as much money left over as I used to have but I don't buy as much music as I used to. When I was younger I would go into the record store and listen to a few songs off of an album and buy it. Sometime the album was not really that good but I had already bought it. I have a closet shelf with some of them on it. Now I just check them out on Youtube, Itunes and all over the net and the cd better be chock full of stuff I really like a lot for me to buy it.
I did go through the downloading of free music faze with Napster when it first came out but I have not done that or other ways since 98 or 99 and most if it is gone now. I buy it if I want it for various reasons but I know there are tons of people who don't since I see the free stuff when I work on their computers. I discourage it and tell them it might be the cause of the their problem in the first place, which it is a lot of the time, but that is really all one can do.
I don't know what the answer is.

Sorry it isn't working out for you Emir. You have to do what you have to do but you should always be looking for an opportunity to jump back into it. You have too much invested in it and then there is the fact that you are an awesome guitarist. I'm pulling for ya man. On a side note I went back and reread your story on myspace. I forgot you actually played in a band called RETARD back in the "old" days. That might be a great marketing thing over here now. Everybody is so PC it just might work. Oh, it would offend some, probably a lot of people, but have you watched a music award show lately? As my grandma used to say....my woooord...oh well my lands....oh no....well huuuuh...ohhh!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Dec 12 2009, 07:36 AM

If the band is good they'll make money if they are sensible. Look at Radiohead. They put the entire album online and said pay what you want for it and they made millions on the album because although some people obviously got the album for free, other people were giving way more than the album would cost them normally and it opened up their music to more people. I think it's just a case of people haven't really learnt to use the internet effectively yet. They are slowly getting around to it as now legal programs like Spotify give us a chance to listen to music before buying and I think over the next few years they'll really make the most out of the potential of the internet.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Dec 12 2009, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Dec 12 2009, 07:36 AM) *
If the band is good they'll make money if they are sensible. Look at Radiohead. They put the entire album online and said pay what you want for it and they made millions on the album because although some people obviously got the album for free, other people were giving way more than the album would cost them normally and it opened up their music to more people. I think it's just a case of people haven't really learnt to use the internet effectively yet. They are slowly getting around to it as now legal programs like Spotify give us a chance to listen to music before buying and I think over the next few years they'll really make the most out of the potential of the internet.


Haven't read the entire topic completely, but was gonna mention Saul Williams and Radiohead. I know things are different when being on a record label, but then maybe musicians need to be without record labels - and do things some other way.

Oh, Chroma Key (Kevin Moore, former Dream Theater) has (or at least used to) all their songs available on their official home page too.

Cannot really think of anything more to add to the topic, as I too think something has to be re-invented, but I don't know how though.

Posted by: Staffy Dec 12 2009, 12:36 PM

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Dec 12 2009, 12:27 PM) *
Cannot really think of anything more to add to the topic, as I too think something has to be re-invented, but I don't know how though.


I dont think no one really know whats gonna happen, but there will for sure be a change in the way of consuming/selling/distribution of music. Time will show... smile.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: blindwillie Dec 12 2009, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM) *
Exactly smile.gif So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday? Shall we start making hip-hop music or there is a way to make a living of music that we spent years learning? I think that decision to be musician nowadays is the most risky move you can make. All these posts in this thread are actually showing what I was hoping to see and that's why I am not even trying to continue with music professionaly. I like my guitar and I am happy to play small clubs and teach but no way I can live of that. I wish I was a plumber smile.gif These guys are making serious money.


That's what I was getting at. If you want to make money out of music then guitar and metal may be the wrong choise. You probably will have to sell your soul and convert to a broader genre. IMO I'd say stick to what you like, it will be the best choise in the end. Money will help you get through the day but it _will_not_ buy you happy.
Play for the joy of it or the money? To me the answer is clear.
A shame though to know all this great musicians (incl. you Emir and many here) and pretty much know they aren't the ones who will top the charts.
Mmmm plumbers... yes. And caarpenters an electricians. That's where the money is smile.gif Definetly made the wrong choise once upon the time. I was aiming for elecrician. We've done some repairs and renovation of our house this fall (too). They know how to charge you. They completly control the market and can pick the jobs that makes the most money.

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:44 PM) *
No more loans for investing in that mate smile.gif We need to eat.

That food-thing is a pain. Having to t eat and sleep really limits our choises. smile.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 11 2009, 03:05 PM) *
I agree with Emir here, although the situation is not black & white. Today, labels are still strong and can advertise artists better than they can do for themselves. But as the time passes by and times are changing, some artists emerge and become famous solely on the means of internet free self promotion. This was not possible before, and labels understand that they have no control over that area, they never did because that area doesn't give them what they are after - profit. As they get less and less money from record sales, they are signing many more artists with less sales to increase profit. This watering down will produce greater number of signed small artists, and they can soon become equal to the artists that choose for the indy label. The labels of the future will shift their interest to Internet and battle will continue there. It has already started, as big labels are trying to kill the free services. They are not doing this just to eliminate piracy, they are doing this to create monopoly once again. But this time, I don't think they can succeed. Internet is way to open to control it.

True about labels and their promoting of artists, but they wont promote everybody they've signed. Only a lucky few will get the backing to rise to fame. All others will get close to nothing at a big label.

Great discussion. Interesting to hear your opinions.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 12 2009, 02:25 PM

This is very interesting thread. It started with very serious accusation, the murder of music. For some styles and artists it is murder for other it it birth in a way. I agree to a lot of things you guys said about both sides. Internet today has changed the way music industry works drastically. Today you can via Youtube, Facebook, Myspace and Twitter get a massive following. You don't need the record companies to do internet marketing for you, anybody can do it, it comes down to how much time and effort are you willing to put into it. We then have our own websites to promote distribute and sell service that we offer. Here no record company or any 3rd party (maybe Paypal with exception smile.gif takes cut from you. You can take all these internet marketing tools and lead them onto your website. That will result into massive traffic which will eventually lead to sales. Again it comes down to what you are selling ? If thats an album, you have to market it with songs on Youtube (videos do wonders) and do some useful tags. Publishing music articles and periodicals helps a lot. It all leads back where it needs to lead. Because of all this I can see why today many independent artist, perhaps even non professional musician can make a great living out of this situation. They mostly record things in their home, their costs are minimum and with proper marketing and decent product that could make great money. For guys like Emir and others who invested money into their album and project, this can be very bad. For one, once you sign the record deal with record company you are pretty much in their hands or your fate is in their hands. You can't market things on your own, you can't sell things independently or open network on your own to earn extra money, you are basically sitting there and waiting for them to give you report whats happening. I don't like this but I can certainly understand why Emir did it. When you live in UK with expenses the way they are you need to find a way to make a good living out of music you do. Record companies can definitely help in that area. In Serbia with 6 million people population things are much simpler. Here you can get people to come to your gigs via Facebook events and if you want whole country to know about you there are 3 main televisions that you should attend : RTS (national television), TV PINK (the most famous and watched program) and B92. These TV channels have massive following and I can tell you I have been to 2 out of 3 of these. They certainly mean a lot because then you get calls for radio shows and paper interviews as well as other TV shows. For Emir this is probably mission impossible in UK, instrumental guitar music or even metal type music with lyrics on BBC? I don't think so smile.gif
All I am saying is things vary from country to country, from style to style and from situation to situation. Singer songwriter I am playing with Oliver Katic has gotten ultra famous through show called I got talent on TV Pink. He is now into semi finals all thanks to one performance with acoustic guitar of Frank Sinatra's standard My Way. After this happened he got so many calls from club owners to get him to perform in their place. He now does one gig in our town Nis on Tuesday, and around 3 other gigs in Belgrade, Novi Sad or some smaller place where they arrange concert for him. Needless to say he makes great money and he doesn't even have an album out yet! He performs rock and pop tunes and audience love it. Talk about taking advantage of situations that things around you offer...
I know for my first real album I will not sign a record deal unless that deal in advance gives me money to cover all the expenses (studio time + pro musicians) and on top of that extra money for at least a year of easy life smile.gif This is why I will rather record it with pro musicians in studio that my friends owe and then distribute it online via my website, facebook myspace and all the rest. Of course on live gigs I will be selling albums as well. I strongly believe that culture of buying hard copy CD is behind us and that internet revolution has taken big lead over it. Now people can download your whole album on your website just by making one quick and easy payment. I would rather sell my album for 5$ on my site then have it in store for 15$ and not sell a single copy.
Sorry for the long message, hope it made sense smile.gif

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 10:23 AM

There is but one problem with some or most of the posts made thus far and that is the "Let's wait and see!" attitude underlying much of it. This single remark has contributed much to the inaction of the last ten years in dealing with the advent of the digital music revolution. The internet is nothing new and neither is digital media distribution. Only its popularity, use of it and so on has changed. It is a long and drawn out revolution compared to say the Bolshevik Revolution but a revolution nonetheless. As the arguments put forth in this topic reveal ... it is quite clear what the state of the music industry is today and the examples of how to deal with it on so many levels. To sum it up. Sink or swim. Those are the only two choices. Taking the reactive rather the proactive route is a surefire way to kill "your" music -- not music itself. Deal with it.

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Dec 13 2009, 10:49 AM

Sad to hear you won't continue your professional music career, Emir. I've got your Sevdah Metal album (bought it through iTunes Store, no piracy here smile.gif and am impressed by the song quality.

I do agree with some of the posts here, in that today the power of online and online communities is shocking to most established organizations. The numbers (visits, usage, etc.) of 'channels' like youtube, google (organic search) etc are hard to grasp and the fact is, if you want to take advantage of today's factual usage, you need to be part of it. It is very hard to try to touch your audience by your own instigation. They need to find you somehow. Whether it is through simple search keywords on google or youtube, or through communities, or differently, it is what the audience these days is using. Even my 8 and 6 year old daughters are only using youtube to search for music clips. No TV, just youtube.

Not sure I'm adding anything to the discussion, so better stop here smile.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 11:36 AM

[quote name='Pedja Simovic' date='Dec 12 2009, 02:25 PM' post='448853'
All I am saying is things vary from country to country, from style to style and from situation to situation.
I would rather sell my album for 5$ on my site then have it in store for 15$ and not sell a single copy.
[/quote]

This I will agree to 100% Pedja! But still its a matter of what You wanna get out of the music eg. Money vs. A good living, which may not be contradictional since if You have money, You will certainly have opportunities for a good living too.... On the other hand, with all opportunities in the music industry today, its quite easy to make a living out of it, its just a matter of the demands one have. For instance You can be teaching at GMC! tongue.gif Nah, what I really mean is that its hard to get some money out of Your OWN music but if You play for the audience instead, its another thing.... but then You're making violence on Your integrity as a musician, which is bad. Therefore I say that is a matter of balance: How much of Your soul are You willing to sell????

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 13 2009, 12:18 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 11 2009, 02:35 PM) *
Exactly smile.gif So what are we doing here with 10 hours of practicing everyday? Shall we start making hip-hop music or there is a way to make a living of music that we spent years learning?


Im sure there a many many talented rappers out there who practice 10 ours a day too and they are never that successful that they earn enough money to live from that!
maybe they wrote in there hip-hop-threads: we should play guitar and get famous like Tokio Hotel (famous german rockband)
In Germany we have much young talented rockbands, they are in the charts, they are famous and rich.
i think there is a chance for everybody! But like you all know, you need much luck to gets that famous that you can earn money with that! doesnt matter what kind of music you do!

I love that music here, we have so much great guitar players here but thats isnt a reason for the most of the people to buy a cd. we all a musicans, we want to buy ambitious music, we want to "hear" the skills of the guitarist!
Its hard to say, but: most of the time i show my wife something form GMC she said: that sounds terrible, thats only fast, its only guitar, and much more... ohmy.gif
"Normal" people are not interested in our skills... sad.gif
look at status quo, or something like that, smoke on the water, all that stuff is so easy to play! nobody needs 10 hours of practice a day to play like that!
only thing you need is the right tune on the right time! maybe the only thing you need is luck...

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (MirkoSchmidt @ Dec 13 2009, 12:18 PM) *
look at status quo, or something like that, smoke on the water, all that stuff is so easy to play!


*Bump* I wouldn't say that its easy to play like Ritchie Blackmore, its even harder to come up with a own style like his... I bet he was practicing at least 10 hours a day.... smile.gif

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 13 2009, 12:33 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 12:27 PM) *
*Bump* I wouldn't say that its easy to play like Ritchie Blackmore, its even harder to come up with a own style like his... I bet he was practicing at least 10 hours a day.... smile.gif


yeah, thats a difference, practicing to get skills like hell, or practicing to come up with a own style! but i have no idea, how i can find a own style, i think you need much talent for that...

blackmore didnt show his skills in every song, isnt it? there a songs, i could play in 30 minutes and there are songs i would need 3 years to play them! yeah, sure i will never really sounds as good as he, but thats not the point here! happy.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 13 2009, 12:39 PM

Quick qeustion. How many C.D.'s have any of you sold? It seems to me that until you have done this or played the "game" your comments are just theories.So i encourage you go put your theory to work .

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 01:39 PM) *
Quick qeustion. How many C.D.'s have any of you sold? It seems to me that until you have done this or played the "game" your comments are just theories.So i encourage you go put your theory to work .

True. The point here though is that CD's are NOT being sold ...

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 13 2009, 12:43 PM

i have sold 0 cds, you?

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 13 2009, 01:14 PM

QUOTE (MirkoSchmidt @ Dec 13 2009, 12:43 PM) *
i have sold 0 cds, you?

only about ona thousand in my little towm and sorrouding communities

QUOTE (Neurologi @ Dec 13 2009, 12:41 PM) *
True. The point here though is that CD's are NOT being sold ...

true- are they being sold or are they being stolen, but still untull you been trying to sell your own you will have a knew understanding of pirating.

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Dec 13 2009, 01:16 PM

That is impressive.

But: do not underestimate the opinions of the crowd (in this case, the GMC community members). The combined knowledge and ideas that can come from this forum alone can already turn into something useful for those who actually want to sell their own music.

Of course, this is self promotion, given that I own a company that distributes prediction software using the crowd's knowledge smile.gif (www.crowdpredictions.com), but nevertheless, the fact that we've decided to move in this direction with our company is because it does work. No need to be experts (or actual CD sellers) for powerful combined knowledge.

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 01:28 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 02:14 PM) *
true- are they being sold or are they being stolen, but still untull you been trying to sell your own you will have a knew understanding of pirating.

All the same you make the mistake of assuming the traditional business model (implied by your statement of direct sales in your LOCAL area and community). Exactly the same one that the majors have made and continue to do so all the while having the hide to feel as though they are being cheated by not changing what obviously does not work. The onus is not on the consumer to change but for those who want to ply their wares and making a living from it. If you or they wish for a wider audience and potential market the choices are obvious. Otherwise, continue what you are doing - play the role of the victim. It is your choice whether you wish to benefit from the opportunity or not.


QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Dec 13 2009, 02:16 PM) *
But: do not underestimate the opinions of the crowd (in this case, the GMC community members). The combined knowledge and ideas that can come from this forum alone can already turn into something useful for those who actually want to sell their own music.

Of course, this is self promotion, given that I own a company that distributes prediction software using the crowd's knowledge smile.gif (www.crowdpredictions.com), but nevertheless, the fact that we've decided to move in this direction with our company is because it does work. No need to be experts (or actual CD sellers) for powerful combined knowledge.

Exactly. A valid point or opinion does not necessarily have to come from those we ASSUME to be in the best position to do so. What worked for Deep Purple or Whitesnake in the past obviously does not do the trick now. That example has already been made. Would you want to take a leaf from their book as it stands now? Talking of past glories and negating the presence of the now and the future?


Besides, those that are selling CDs are in the minority. An alternative approach is needed. Alternative sources of income. What's so good about CD's anyway? I have plenty of them but they never get played. MP3's are far more convenient. They don't wear out over time. Anyhow, I ain't paying top dollar for physical CD's I can't find in my local store and have to import them instead from some boutique dealer paying shipping and handling in the process. Most of the money forked over never reaches the artist anyway. Liner notes and so on are just not worth the price premium. Of course, the picture changes if I can purchase one at a live gig.

The focus on physical media just perpetuates this dire set of consequences. That is past ways of thinking and doing business that gets everybody nowhere pretty fast.

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 13 2009, 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Neurologi @ Dec 13 2009, 01:28 PM) *
All the same you make the mistake of assuming the traditional business model (implied by your statement of direct sales in your LOCAL area and community). Exactly the same one that the majors have made and continue to do so all the while having the hide to feel as though they are being cheated by not changing what obviously does not work. The onus is not on the consumer to change but for those who want to ply their wares and making a living from it. If you or they wish for a wider audience and potential market the choices are obvious. Otherwise, continue what you are doing - play the role of the victim. It is your choice whether you wish to benefit from the opportunity or not.



Exactly. A valid point or opinion does not necessarily have to come from those we ASSUME to be in the best position to do so. What worked for Deep Purple or Whitesnake in the past obviously does not do the trick now. That example has already been made. Would you want to take a leaf from their book as it stands now? Talking of past glories and negating the presence of the now and the future?

yes but you would not want your kidney removed by some one who has only read about it
you still have'nt told me is this your experience or theory

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 01:42 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 02:30 PM) *
yes but you would not want your kidney removed by some one who has only read about it
you still have'nt told me is this your experience or theory

Read my previous post. I don't think your points are valid at all. You make comparisons where there are none. Hyperbole does not contribute anything here.

Why stop there, man? Why not ask every single poster in this thread the same question? That's it. I am getting off this one. Your sense of community disturbs me.

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 13 2009, 02:03 PM

QUOTE (Neurologi @ Dec 13 2009, 01:42 PM) *
Read my previous post. I don't think your points are valid at all. You make comparisons where there are none. Hyperbole does not contribute anything here.

Why stop there, man? Why not ask every single poster in this thread the same question? That's it. I am getting off this one. Your sense of community disturbs me.

didn't mean to offend- is that spelled right-just that personal experience changes your thinking

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Dec 13 2009, 02:12 PM

The mistake here is the comparison of kidney removal execution. The interpretation of the crowd's opinions/predictions is a different matter. Those who want to execute on it (i.e. remove the kidney) can and should take the results into consideration. You are not asking the crowd to actually remove the kidney, you are tapping into their collective intelligence on what could work best for the situation. Use their opinions/predictions to your own discretion.

Obviously, the kidney comparison is not working, given that the crowd does not necessarily have info that would help here smile.gif. However, we all buy/make/love music and have been doing this for a long time. Surely there is value in the opinions.

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 13 2009, 02:49 PM

wtf.... what means kidney? imy dictionary only told me that it is a internal organ and that doesnt make any sense to me... wacko.gif

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 01:14 PM) *
only about ona thousand in my little towm and sorrouding communities


true- are they being sold or are they being stolen, but still untull you been trying to sell your own you will have a knew understanding of pirating.



im not sure if this is a ironic answer, but i dont like that ONLY in your sentence. 1000 people like your music that much that they bought a hole cd from you! i think thats amazing! concratulation man!!! good work!

i hope im good enough to write own songs and make a cd too (in a few years)

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 03:03 PM) *
didn't mean to offend- is that spelled right-just that personal experience changes your thinking

No worries, man. I just see that the same arguments are being used now as over five years ago when I first became aware of this phenomenon of the digital music revolution and how to deal with it as it applies to the music industry. I don't see any progress even after all this time judging by the responses here. Preconceived notions and old habits of doing business are the culprit in my opinion and it is exactly that - my opinion. The switch in thinking has to be made and invalidating any information that comes one's way on the basis of irrelevant criteria only reduces your palette of choices from which to draw from.

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 13 2009, 02:55 PM

QUOTE (Neurologi @ Dec 13 2009, 02:49 PM) *
No worries, man. I just see that the same arguments are being used now as over five years ago when I first became aware of this phenomenon of the digital music revolution and how to deal with it as it applies to the music industry. I don't see any progress even after all this time judging by the responses here. Preconceived notions and old habits of doing business are the culprit in my opinion and it is exactly that - my opinion. The switch in thinking has to be made and invalidating any information that comes one's way on the basis of irrelevant criteria only reduces your palette of choices from which to draw from.


ken my friend... please... dont write that difficult english. i needed a dictionray three times for every sentense....

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Dec 13 2009, 03:12 PM) *
The mistake here is the comparison of kidney removal execution. The interpretation of the crowd's opinions/predictions is a different matter. Those who want to execute on it (i.e. remove the kidney) can and should take the results into consideration. You are not asking the crowd to actually remove the kidney, you are tapping into their collective intelligence on what could work best for the situation. Use their opinions/predictions to your own discretion.

Obviously, the kidney comparison is not working, given that the crowd does not necessarily have info that would help here smile.gif. However, we all buy/make/love music and have been doing this for a long time. Surely there is value in the opinions.

smile.gif Yeah you have it right. Musicians have to become business savvy. Any and all tools which can help in that regard are valuable like the one you speak of.

QUOTE (MirkoSchmidt @ Dec 13 2009, 03:55 PM) *
ken my friend... please... dont write that difficult english. i needed a dictionray three times for every sentense....

Haha! laugh.gif Oh but I am providing a service then in the improvement of your English skills! wink.gif All good.

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 13 2009, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Dec 13 2009, 02:12 PM) *
The mistake here is the comparison of kidney removal execution. The interpretation of the crowd's opinions/predictions is a different matter. Those who want to execute on it (i.e. remove the kidney) can and should take the results into consideration. You are not asking the crowd to actually remove the kidney, you are tapping into their collective intelligence on what could work best for the situation. Use their opinions/predictions to your own discretion.

Obviously, the kidney comparison is not working, given that the crowd does not necessarily have info that would help here smile.gif. However, we all buy/make/love music and have been doing this for a long time. Surely there is value in the opinions.

i was using the kidney as a metaphore for someone who has been there and done that versus someone who hasn'nt and is only describing what they heard or how they think it should be donei- please don't make me use big words like metophore again , don't know if i spelled it right and it just hurts my head blink.gif
as fare as the cd thanks. it was made in 2ooo and the band broke up in early 03, i'll ask the singer if he minds me posting a song for GMC listeners

about hte main theme about Emir topic
if someone walked up to you and said i will sell your cd and make you onr million dollars but for every one you make i will make 9 mill. and without him you will probably make 50.000 .would you do it. is that wrong for that person to profit like that .well that is what the record campanies do. i understand about the knew media and it is effective but not like posters mass media t.v. exposure . to me all are good the problem lies in the STEALING in either one

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 03:27 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 04:07 PM) *
as fare as the cd thanks. it was made in 2ooo and the band broke up in early 03, i'll ask the singer if he minds me posting a song for GMC listeners

Ah good! That would be cool. My faith is once again restored ... smile.gif


Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 13 2009, 04:18 PM

This is a very interesting and hot topic.

Personally I agree that what we are seeing now might very well be the murder of some music/bands - but more importantly the murdering of a business model which isn't very well adapted to today's market/reality.

I hope that in a near future there will be lots of good legal alternatives which gives both listeners and musicians the credit they deserve.

This in combination with the Internet / modern technology could result in a boost of new cool music like we never seen it before! I am hoping for this not only as a fan but of course as an aspiring musician as well.

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Dec 13 2009, 04:19 PM

Selling 1000 CDs is great...! I can't even get my own wife to listen to the covers I've recorded, unless she sings it herself biggrin.gif

Posted by: NoSkill Dec 13 2009, 04:24 PM

This is an interesting topic. The last time I read, stealing intellectual property was considered a crime. I believe this to be true in every country represented by members, instructors and staff at GMC. I value a good debate. Especially if we are the ones setting policy. In that case, our debate and the fruit of it, are essential. However, when we start debating the efficacy of international law, and debating the appropriateness of theft of intellectual property, I have to show my age and my rigidity. Theft is theft. If you steal Emir's album, then you are criminalizing yourself for $16.00. Is that the amount that one places on their ethics and morality?

I agree, however, that too much money goes to the middle man. This is true EVERYWHERE! We cry about the middle man, but with him/her, I don't know who Emir or Borislav are. I would not hear of Blind Guardian and David Walliman would be, David who? As a quasi-musician and heartfelt music lover, I operate with one rule, "It costs what it costs."

Now, I will make an admission of guilt. Last night, while my family decorated our Christmas tree, I downloaded and played the Bony M. Christmas album. I am a hypocrite in this sense, but I mention this to demonstrate that no matter how rigid my beliefs are, and how strongly I feel about theft, I am not without fault. As my second admission of the day, I own that same Christmas album. I just didn't want to try and find where the hell it is.

Have a good day. I'm back to Dom7 arpeggios for my task master.

`Skill

Edited for spelling.

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (Neurologi @ Dec 13 2009, 02:49 PM) *
No worries, man. I just see that the same arguments are being used now as over five years ago when I first became aware of this phenomenon of the digital music revolution and how to deal with it as it applies to the music industry. I don't see any progress even after all this time judging by the responses here. Preconceived notions and old habits of doing business are the culprit in my opinion and it is exactly that - my opinion. The switch in thinking has to be made and invalidating any information that comes one's way on the basis of irrelevant criteria only reduces your palette of choices from which to draw from.


Agreeing to that. But what we must bear in mind is that there are a "stubborness" in the business, both with the business itself and the crowd. For instance, I begun working with the internet in the early 90's and mobile phones shortly after. It took until 2000 before internet actually was emerging and even that SMS was introduced in 97-98 people dont understood how to use it until 2003-2004.....
The point here, however, is that if You are in the frontline of new technolgy/thinking, You have a lot of more choices and is much more likely to gain success.

Also we must bear in mind that the way people consume music has already changed - eg. they are listening by their computers and mobile phones instead of buying CD's. So why should we try to market a CD??? It's stupid in my belief, and in my opinion a new media must be adopted as well as a new high-end format that can take advantage of the new digital technique.

Btw. I worked as a touring musician for 15 years, made several recordings as a sideman with artists like Tonjua Hawkins, Ibriza Jusic, Jimmy Nielsen band as well as worked at Big Ben Music (record company) and was running a business as studio owner in the 80's. So what I'm saying is not solely based on my own crappy theories... tongue.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 13 2009, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 13 2009, 02:07 PM) *
if someone walked up to you and said i will sell your cd and make you onr million dollars but for every one you make i will make 9 mill. and without him you will probably make 50.000 .would you do it. is that wrong for that person to profit like that .well that is what the record campanies do. i understand about the knew media and it is effective but not like posters mass media t.v. exposure . to me all are good the problem lies in the STEALING in either one

I would accept this offer. With that money I would be able to continue myself when the contract finishes. Record labels have to live of something. The service they provide is often something that we can't do ourselves. Their way of promotion and distribution is far more developed than what we can do alone. Also they help you with money to finish your product. I got some money for the studio plus they paid for all manufacturing, distribution, promotion etc... I only paid my musicians and the rest of the studio costs.

It might be true that their share is much bigger but that's how you get into the market with the big names and make your own name. You don't have to stay with the label for life.

Now, this would only work if people legaly buy your stuff. Imagine that with all their promotional work you don't cover what you invested then how can you possibly cover the cost without them? No Google or Youtube can help you get your money back, that's wrong thinking in my oppinion.

Either way (with the label or without) it's not working and the problem is in illegal distribution, filesharing and copying someone else's work. Very big names and awesome musicians, sometimes true legends, are slowly giving up.

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 03:32 PM) *
Ibriza Jusic

I personaly know this guy. He is from ex-Yugoslavia, awesome musician and was very famous 15 and more years ago.

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 05:04 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 04:36 PM) *
I would accept this offer. With that money I would be able to continue myself when the contract finishes. Record labels have to live of something. The service they provide is often something that we can't do ourselves. Their way of promotion and distribution is far more developed than what we can do alone. Also they help you with money to finish your product. I got some money for the studio plus they paid for all manufacturing, distribution, promotion etc... I only paid my musicians and the rest of the studio costs.

It might be true that their share is much bigger but that's how you get into the market with the big names and make your own name. You don't have to stay with the label for life.

Now, this would only work if people legaly buy your stuff. Imagine that with all their promotional work you don't cover what you invested then how can you possibly cover the cost without them? No Google or Youtube can help you get your money back, that's wrong thinking in my oppinion.

Either way (with the label or without) it's not working and the problem is in illegal distribution, filesharing and copying someone else's work. Very big names and awesome musicians, sometimes true legends, are slowly giving up.


I personaly know this guy. He is from ex-Yugoslavia, awesome musician and was very famous 15 and more years ago.


I'll give You right in that a promoting company can do a lot more than Yourself since they got the financial resources. But still they are thinking in the wrong way. How many people visit a record store today in search of a new band/record ??? Personally I dont know a single person, my kids are adopting all new music through the internet or through watching TV-series/movies. So why are the companies still doing the same old-fashioned marketing??? There are surprisingly few ads on the internet for new bands and new music. At the same time we are experiencing higher ticket prizes to concerts, I paid 40€ for seeing Gary Moore in Berlin, and that was CHEAP..... This tells me once again: The musicians today must try to live on their concerts/live performances rather than selling records. An other interesting alternative would be if the record business worked more close with the gaming/entertainment business licensing the songs for games etc.

The only way to stop the filesharing is to make it difficult and hard to do - eg. it would be easier to buy it than put some hours to try to copying it. Another way would be to introduce a new digital format that will be hard to copy and as well have a much higher quality than the MP3's. But this will only work for some years - until its hacked and then we are back from the beginning again..... Compare it to Microsofts genuine validation and You'll get a grasp of what I mean... People are copying Windows, but in the long run its too messy to deal with, so its easier to pay for it.

But still, the most important question is: Do we really want to have record stores and consume music like in the old days? Personally I say no, I would rather pay 16€ to watch my favourite artist online with my credit card, than driving my car to a record store and buy the last album. The crowd has changed their consuming behaviour and so must the record labels/recording industry. Thats why we have a problem with pirating - eg. dont blame the consumers, blame the industry who still want to play by their own old rules!

//Staffay

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 04:36 PM) *
I personaly know this guy. He is from ex-Yugoslavia, awesome musician and was very famous 15 and more years ago.


Yeah, thats true! smile.gif I was on a record with him playing guitar in the 80's, ask him if he remembers Matchtown Studios in Sweden. He was also doin a Yugoslavian version of a Swedish song, cant remember which it was though....

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 13 2009, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 04:04 PM) *
Personally I dont know a single person, my kids are adopting all new music through the internet or through watching TV-series/movies. So why are the companies still doing the same old-fashioned marketing???

They don't distribute in shops only. Every serious label distributes stuff on internet as well. You can find my album on every popular music web store in both mp3 and CD format but very few people pay for it.

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 05:17 PM) *
They don't distribute in shops only. Every serious label distributes stuff on internet as well. You can find my album on every popular music web store in both mp3 and CD format but very few people pay for it.


Yeah, I know, but since people are used to (by now) to get MP3's for free - why should they visit an online store to pay for them??? More interesting would be if they sold the album in a high-end resolution together with some vids of the band and maybe some photos? And then MARKETED it through other channels. People do not visit online record stores either... In my belief thew marketing must be made at Youtube and other well known forums.

//Staffay

Posted by: MickeM Dec 13 2009, 05:25 PM

Artists have been poor through out all times, then there was a period where one could package music on f.ex CD's and earn very much; but that period is over.
- Alexander Bard

I guess there's some truth to that quote. Record industry bit it's own tail getting too greedy. Spotify and their likes are great for discovering new music, just great to be able to randomly listen (which radio isn't) and suddenly hear something that pulls the carpet under your feet.
I can't think of buying mp3's, music in the cyber void or on harddrives. So I don't think CD's - or some other format - will go away just yet.
At least I want music to come in a keep case.

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 13 2009, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 04:22 PM) *
Yeah, I know, but since people are used to (by now) to get MP3's for free - why should they visit an online store to pay for them??? More interesting would be if they sold the album in a high-end resolution together with some vids of the band and maybe some photos? And then MARKETED it through other channels. People do not visit online record stores either... In my belief thew marketing must be made at Youtube and other well known forums.

//Staffay

Staffy, all of them (labels) have Youtube, Myspace, Facebook, Twitter etc.. channels smile.gif Plus they are in magazines, webzines and a lot more.

You said "why should they visit an online store to pay for them". Ok then where should people look to buy stuff?

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 05:55 PM

QUOTE (MickeM @ Dec 13 2009, 05:25 PM) *
So I don't think CD's - or some other format - will go away just yet.
At least I want music to come in a keep case.


No, Im speaking not about tomorrow... it will of course take some time (due to the stubbornness Im talking bout), but in a couple of years maybe.... I would personally prefer to buy an album the real old-fashion way, in vinyl with those great looking covers - but the kids growing up now are'nt thinking the way we do...l. sad.gif

//Staffay


QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 05:38 PM) *
Staffy, all of them (labels) have Youtube, Myspace, Facebook, Twitter etc.. channels smile.gif Plus they are in magazines, webzines and a lot more.

You said "why should they visit an online store to pay for them". Ok then where should people look to buy stuff?


First, I also have a Youtube channel, Myspace channel as well as Facebook, people hardly visit my pages either. What Im talking about here is paid advertising on the normal pages the users sees. There is hardly no advertising at all at Facebook for instance (which I visit daily) directed to me at my own page - even that the ads are for sale and they are incredible simple to advertise on. That the labels have their own channels doesn't mean that they are doin any effort to market their artists.

The answer on the last one is simple: People dont WANNA pay for music, they wanna to download it for free. So what to do? Let them download some teasers for free and then sell them a high quality product when they are liking your music. And now Im not talking bout some low-end MP3's that sounds like crap..... (I bought some music at Itunes and some of the encodings were TERRIBLE....) Thats why Im saying that the business must adopt a new format to get rid of pirating.

//Staffay

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 13 2009, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 13 2009, 04:55 PM) *
So what to do? Let them download some teasers for free and then sell them a high quality product when they are liking your music.

But how to make them buy your music if they like it. I see no way of making them pay for it. They have teasers available everywhere.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Dec 13 2009, 06:18 PM

Completely agree with Staffay. The music business must finally understand, that telling what is theft and what isnt is just merely a different point of few.

But what can you be sure with is, that when people are put before decision:

"For free (and MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE)

or

for money (and you have to go to shop/wait until you get that thing by postal services/setup your credit card, add stuff to basket, complete order.. its still much more complicated then downloading a torrent for ex.)"

99% people (dont take literary) will choose the easier and cheaper way. Normally, what would happen would be: Business model not working => we have to adapt a new model, be creative and offer them something (movies, tshirts... heck picks would be cool). But the core of capitalism is business, so they used their power, formed organisations, pushed legislative and now its: Business model not working => lets blame them for making copies and for borrowing to their friends! And with time, it went to this extreme - by their own fault, insetad of inventing and thinking about how to solve it, they started prosecuting.

Another thing:
How much of the record sales go REALLY into the artists pocket? especially on those huge labels. How much of the fee WE (as band) have to pay for every cover song we do on our gigs to the copyright organisations is really put into art? I doubt its even far from close to 50:50.

I am not telling its all about the business - its about human nature as well. But first of all, I think that the whole music industry needs all around changes and the illegal downloading is just a tip of an iceberg.

Well about them, buying your music... I agree its tough to sell mp3s in this enviroment (you can get anything you want for free...).
I have an idea tho on how to solve that - imagine some cloud computing music database, with mp3's, videos etc.. availible for streaming, you pay fixed price for access (just like GMC) and artists are being payed according to number of listens. This idea needs more developing, but I believe it could make both three sides happy smile.gif (as I believe there is future in cloud computing)

Posted by: jafomatic Dec 13 2009, 06:43 PM

I assume not everyone (or anyone?) can see Hulu outside the US but there's a segment in this documentary where artists specifically talk about ways to embrace the digital availability of their work:

http://www.hulu.com/before-the-music-dies

Specifically, putting your own stuff at low (192kbit) bitrate online and offering added value to the actual album with extras. Behind-the-scenes video from the studio, a t-shirt, artwork, I can't remember all the examples.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Dec 13 2009, 06:55 PM

Yea, even tho, I dont have USA IP, the hulu project is very interesting!

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 07:03 PM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 13 2009, 06:10 PM) *
But how to make them buy your music if they like it. I see no way of making them pay for it. They have teasers available everywhere.


Yeah, but thats why they dont get a much better product when buying the album.... or any other stuff. See Jafomatics post...
The key herein lies in that the company should make a product bundle that cannot been beaten by a free MP3 download, eg. the business itself must play by the new rules! Today they are acting like dinasours, wanting to have the old days back when they could gain enormous profits out of nothing instead of trying to adopt the new situation.

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Dec 13 2009, 06:43 PM) *
Specifically, putting your own stuff at low (192kbit) bitrate online and offering added value to the actual album with extras. Behind-the-scenes video from the studio, a t-shirt, artwork, I can't remember all the examples.


Thats exactly what Im talking bout! smile.gif

QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Dec 13 2009, 06:18 PM) *
Another thing:
How much of the record sales go REALLY into the artists pocket?


As I said earlier, Michael Jackson rumoured to get 5% at Thriller and that was considering HIGH back then.
EDIT: And now the company's talking bout theft???? biggrin.gif

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Dec 13 2009, 07:32 PM

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Dec 13 2009, 04:19 PM) *
Selling 1000 CDs is great...! I can't even get my own wife to listen to the covers I've recorded, unless she sings it herself biggrin.gif


i believe the own wife is the hardest jury you can have! thats my experience... sad.gif

Posted by: Fran Dec 13 2009, 07:32 PM

Talking about good legal alternatives to listen/get new musiv, I'm loving Spotify lately.

I also have a subscription to LastFM, which is another great source to listen/find new music.

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 13 2009, 07:33 PM

Glad someone finally had the sense to point out that the debate on intellectual property rights is just another red herring to get the consumer to play by the big boys rules. Of course, this has the legal profession rubbing their hands together with glee. For everyone else, there is nothing to be gained by empty moralising over what people should or should not do. Far better would be to find new rules of engagement as some of the fine folk here at GMC have just pointed out ... smile.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 13 2009, 08:11 PM

What must be understood in this debate is that nothing comes for free. I you wanna have success - You have to pay for it. Numerous female artists paid in their own way (which must not be mentioned here), other artists paid by selling their rights and even made their music more "commercial". It has always been and will always be so. Even in the "old days" it was like that, Madonna or Paul McCartney are good examples on that - they would'nt have been anything today without a sense of businessman-ship. To have a talent and write some great music isn't simply enough. You have to work hard even that You have a label behind You, in order to make them do things YOUR way.
In the 70's and 80's the bands usually had their own labels in order to get thíngs to happen - the same applies today since the company's just see's red numbers or green numbers and they dont give a damn about the music as long as it sells. Therefore, a musician must be very business-aware and smart to get them doin the right things for You. Just be signed to a major label doesn't mean that You will be recognized and have a success.....

//Staffay

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 14 2009, 04:19 PM

This thread has great interest to me. Speaking not as a professional musician
but as a fan of many. When my brother and I were in our teens, he used to
use the VCR and record every video or live performance from any band he
liked on TV. I had my radio on most the time, and always had a blank tape ready
to hit record whenever one of my favorite songs would play. This also prompted
me to buy many albums. MTV and radio were the mainstreams for free musical
entertainment in those days, and I think all this hype and glorification is much of
what made so many people want to go and see those bands live when they came
to town and also buy their albums in the millions. Like one hand to feeding the
other. Because you never got to hear all the songs on the album without buying
the whole album. I remember when G -n- R came to our town once for their new
Use Your Illusion albums (new at the time), before the album itself was even
released! but at that time only the demo was available until after they swept
through town with sold out shows - my brother bought the demo and he and his
friends actually went to see the concert! And yes, I listened to his copy of
the demo. So, I think all this began well before the internet revolution came
into play, because I was recording music as a kid before 1980.

Trying to harness the mediums being used these days in a positive way is
difficult given the dilemmas being projected here. No doubt. In another
sense, if you take all the albums you have sold legitimately, and could add
to that number those who have accessed them illegally, maybe you have a-lot
more fans out there than you thought! Although misguided and short sighted,
but fans nonetheless. Without repeating what was said in my former post or
trying to add to the great insight already projected here. This is my view
as a fan. Don't give up, Emir. Take a break and think things through, but
don't give up any of you... smile.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 14 2009, 11:43 PM

.......Not to quote myself, but, what I am trying to say here is. Don't let it strike
you down, but dudes, "Ride The Lightening." Use it to your benefit... (*bump*)

Posted by: Staffy Dec 14 2009, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 14 2009, 11:43 PM) *
.......Not to quote myself, but, what I am trying to say here is. Don't let it strike
you down, but dudes, "Ride The Lightening." Use it to your benefit... (*bump*)


Yeah, exactly! Be creative and use the tools now available, it's all out there!

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 14 2009, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 14 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Yeah, exactly! Be creative and use the tools now available, it's all out there!


Fully Agreed! Hey, Do you Manage? he he he!

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 15 2009, 12:02 AM

Thanks for your words of support intemperate but I'm not continuing at this point. Once I save enough money to live a whole year without a job then I can do a new album as that's how long it would take for such project without being able to do anything else. Even after I finish, there is no gurantee that I will get my 12 salaries back but I would go for that risk if I had enough savings. I hope you understand the difficulty. This is how we're all hard working musicians slowly dying in this modern world.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 15 2009, 12:11 AM

My conclusion after reading all these responses is following :

- Sign with record label only if it allows you to also sell your work outside of their promotion and/or you get at least all expenses payed plus year in advance money to live nicely and do another record in the meanwhile.
- Don't sign the label, get money via sponsorship or donations (maybe your city or music organization in your town can sponsor your work) and then do the marketing online and whatever you sell will be extra income.

My final conclusion to all this is that making an album can be whatever you want it to be. You just have to accept the fact that you can have absolutely no audience (if your music is not popular, if you don't have a huge network of people to spread the word about your work and buy your product etc) or you can get great results with it (depending on how much you invested and how much you earned within a year from sales, concerts and all the other private bookings).
I would just like to share one good story with you. When I performed Jazz chord melodies I composed within last month on this big culture event organized Student Culture Center of Nis, I got approached by a person who was in charge of the SCCN (in Serbian its Studentksi Kulturni Centar = SKC) and offered FREE financial help to do following things : 1) Start a jazz program and do it in their building and get all the students through them and get payed through them as well and 2) Record an album but before starting the project to present ALL THE EXPENSES which they would pay and make it basically all happen. All I would have to do there is of course mention when I promote the album and say that I was sponsored or got help from SKC. They are part of city's service which gets funds from government, so we are not talking about private business here but rather government sponsored place. I am very happy that I meet person in charge and his deputy director and needless to say I will accept one of the two if not both offers. Currently I am working on syllabus for Jazz program and the album I hope to do by the end of 2010 (thats will be one of my new years resolutions smile.gif
This just shows that oportunities are endless and its all about what you want and how you want it. You can all make it happen, the way will open if you strongly and passionately look for it. I see no other way of things working anyways. smile.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 15 2009, 12:26 AM

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 14 2009, 11:11 PM) *
- Sign with record label only if it allows you to also sell your work outside of their promotion and/or you get at least all expenses payed plus year in advance money to live nicely and do another record in the meanwhile.

No label will give you this smile.gif If they allow you to sell stuff yourself then for sure you won't get the money for a year and the expenses.

If you do get expenses covered and more money to live then the distribution must be theirs and you get your share. Even this option works only with rich and strong labels. With smaller indie labels you can only get manufacturing, distribution and promotion with no extra fee.

In order to sign for the big label you either have to be a good looking girl or win some kind of x-factor or get your rich parrents help you with everything.

No place for us man smile.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 15 2009, 12:42 AM

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 15 2009, 12:11 AM) *
They are part of city's service which gets funds from government, so we are not talking about private business here but rather government sponsored place. I am very happy that I meet person in charge and his deputy director and needless to say I will accept one of the two if not both offers. Currently I am working on syllabus for Jazz program and the album I hope to do by the end of 2010 (thats will be one of my new years resolutions smile.gif


Thats the way it works for jazz musicians here in Sweden too. I have a lot of friends who are top-rated musicians but still they have to live with support from the government and annual funds. But still they survive - and they can play their beloved music, maybe not millionaires but happy anyway! smile.gif

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 12:26 AM) *
In order to sign for the big label you either have to be a good looking girl or win some kind of x-factor or get your rich parrents help you with everything.

No place for us man smile.gif


Agree to that Emir. Very few artists lasts more than a couple of years though. Pete Black from King Diamond (the guitar player) was one of my friends when we grew up. I heard he recently started to play again, but he became out of work when the band was not popular anymore, and started to do other things. What is obvious here is that in order to stay on top, You must at some point fire the record company and be in charge of Your own business - even that they may be a help at the beginning..... Then its of course a matter of what sells - I can't expect to sell any records with a vid showing me playing Swedish folk-music with a bagpipe totally nude.... biggrin.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 15 2009, 12:55 AM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 14 2009, 11:42 PM) *
Then its of course a matter of what sells - I can't expect to sell any records with a vid showing me playing Swedish folk-music with a bagpipe totally nude.... biggrin.gif

I am not going to do electronic music which these days sells a lot. I've been playing guitar for so many years and if there are no people who can still enjoy something that you're actually doing with live both hands then I don't want to even think of going that down.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 15 2009, 01:16 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 12:26 AM) *
No label will give you this smile.gif If they allow you to sell stuff yourself then for sure you won't get the money for a year and the expenses.

If you do get expenses covered and more money to live then the distribution must be theirs and you get your share. Even this option works only with rich and strong labels. With smaller indie labels you can only get manufacturing, distribution and promotion with no extra fee.

In order to sign for the big label you either have to be a good looking girl or win some kind of x-factor or get your rich parrents help you with everything.

No place for us man smile.gif


Thats what I meant Emir. Its And/OR type of deal. If you get expenses covered plus money for one year of easy life I don't care how much label makes of it! Why? Because they covered all the expenses I would have payed out of my pocket (musicians + studio time) and they gave me years worth money to live easy and work on another album. I would rather accept that deal then the one where they give no money but offer distribution exposure manufacturing and promotion. You make music for people to buy it listen to it sure but you also want your product to pay off the time you invested in it. It is business just like any else except it is art! For some people it might take over year to do an album for some it may be meter of months or less. Its all about talent, songwriting and arranging skills, style of music and whole organization behind the project. I do however agree somewhat with your last statement smile.gif When I played Jazz gigs at Berklee I would have people come to and discuss even little details about my performances praise critique and what not. Now when I play in my town I just get audience who enjoy the music and are fascinated by it more or less. I have done 6 gigs within last 3-4 weeks and I haven't had a single person come and ask me specifics about some improvisation solo approach or how or why I did this harmony over that tune etc. You can see the difference and my point here. The music we play is not for everyone smile.gif I play Jazz which is also known as "musicians music". Not everybody can listen to jazz, most people with untrained ear would find it a bit too much over the top with harmonies rhythm and solos, they would rather hear I IV V or I VI II V or I min IV maj etc , their ears love that stuff and endless repetition. Having said all these things it just shows that there are still people who come to listen to music even if they don't understand it as deeply and passionately as we do. From these last 6 solo gigs I had anywhere from 30 up to 100 people on a gig with average of 50 probably for every gig. Thats a lot for the music I play, plus its solo guitar (chord melodies) and guitar over backing tracks as well as guitar with loop station. Another good thing about it is these people are not my closest friends that come to my gig, no I never like to do that when I play, sure I tell my friends and family but I would rather have 50 people that I see for the first time than people who come just to give me support. Thats whats happening with these performances, new people always with exception of 6 to 10 people that are always there on my every performance. If I continue with those, which I should after I finish my last 2 gigs this week, it should eventually lead into a bigger thing where people will know that every Monday and Thursday 8:30 to 12 they can come to listen some quality guitar playing - something new and something they have probably never heard before smile.gif So to sum things up, we don't have an audience ( I would love to have Berklee musicians come to my gigs and talk to them 3 hours straight after gig regarding each improvisation I did etc) but then again we do (the place I perform can get up to 100 max and its always at least half full and guess what its mostly girls that come to listen to me play so you can guess why they are there right? laugh.gif
- point is we have to find a model that works for everybody - we play what we like, they pay as for it and hopefully enjoy our performance smile.gif

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 15 2009, 12:42 AM) *
Thats the way it works for jazz musicians here in Sweden too. I have a lot of friends who are top-rated musicians but still they have to live with support from the government and annual funds. But still they survive - and they can play their beloved music, maybe not millionaires but happy anyway! smile.gif


Hm don't get me wrong Stuffy, I don't have to live of government support and funds. In fact I pay my own salary from my own pocket to government every month more than 100 euros so that I could get a pension and all the rest when I grow old smile.gif This is perfect because I have a product and they without any restrictions offer help. That money comes from governments budget and its meant to be used for cultural things in my town. They figure (and I don't blame them) that if I start a Jazz course or school and do it through them, government and city after all would benefit a lot. To have a Berklee graduate and teacher do the work in Nis, sounds like mission impossible for them - thats why they want it so bad and students would want it as well smile.gif Regarding album , they also see interest in that, just like I do. Why would I gather 5-10.000 euros for album when they can pay all that and offer to pay it for me? This gives me time to write my music do arrangements and try to get people like Joey Calderazzo and Jeff Tain Watts to come play on my record ? Maybe even Christian McBride on the bass... You see where I am going with this.
I think it is fantastic that in my town I was able to find out and run into people who are in charge of this program. Luckily for me I was at the right place and the right time, they loved my solo guitar performance and approached to meet me and offer any help with a lot of respect. If somebody told me this 2 months ago that that would happen here in my town I would say mission impossible but now I realize that nothing and really nothing is impossible. More then ever now I am keeping my eyes and ears open fishing for the right opportunity for the things that I want smile.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 15 2009, 01:35 AM

I know what you're saying Pedja. I play gigs like that every week in London. Unfortunately that job can't cover all my monthly expenses as this city is crazy expensive. I am glad if it works for you.

This topic is about illegal music distribution. Why make albums if they don't sell and is there are way to make it work properly and by the law so we can think of recording music. We can all play like you do but in order to have something left in your career and something to send out to the world we need to make albums. The problem is that we are scared to invest time and money as they will not sell. I can spend the rest of my life playing in pubs and small clubs everyday but that's not the solution. That leads to cancer in about 6-7 years smile.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 15 2009, 02:00 AM

I know you are a very experienced musician, Emir - something I aspire to be, and in this sense you are totally
my superior. Forget my own experience but I do know a little. You would need about 4 years (for 1 good album)
and the financial backers. smile.gif You're only going to get better unless you quit! And as you said, you need 1 year
to create a new album, and ( I say ) about 3 years for touring (along with more creations) to include promotion to
make it World Wide (quite possibly less - but at least 3 years at the most, if at all). I think you been doing it wrong
in part. For one, 12 salaries up front? What's up with that? Not sure what you mean by that. I can only take it you
wish to pay others to back your faith 4 the album up front (for their greed instead of love for the music) along with
studio time and all necessary promotion, and to then take all the revenues thereafter for yourself because U paid
the other band members off for having no faith in the future of your success? It's like reverse psychology. Sounds
like you're going for a long shot without the reality of believing it can come true. You may not mean that - it just
sounds like that to me. I wouldn't disrespect you, Mr. Hot - I just want to speak freely (right or wrong) like the music.

Get a good contract with people who believe - friends really do sacrifice for each other! Don't be too negative.
Again, I'm not sure if that's what you meant. I mean, that's what it sounds like - but if you're going solo and want
to be an independent? that's something rappers do. No, you need to be in a great band with friends - and you need
equals you can trust. Maybe we ought to start a musicians union right here, and put those most talented upfront
while all contribute to the unification of progressing this business for us all (Like Wall-Street Investors). I am probably
in the back 60 with my creations but am much better than my humble submissions here on GMC - I am a creator and
innovator and would still put you all before me! So what? Let's consider working together in some way (Consider GMC
a cool beginning to be continued by everyone involved). And, Dudes, (starting with Emir), What do you say? What
can we do about this? I can do more than just talk. (freaking *Bump*).......

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 15 2009, 02:38 AM

QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 15 2009, 01:00 AM) *
I am a creator and innovator and would still put you all before me! So what? Let's consider working together in some way (Consider GMC
a cool beginning to be continued by everyone involved). And, Dudes, (starting with Emir), What do you say? What
can we do about this? I can do more than just talk. (freaking *Bump*).......

Then let's inovate something smile.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 15 2009, 02:40 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 01:35 AM) *
I know what you're saying Pedja. I play gigs like that every week in London. Unfortunately that job can't cover all my monthly expenses as this city is crazy expensive. I am glad if it works for you.

This topic is about illegal music distribution. Why make albums if they don't sell and is there are way to make it work properly and by the law so we can think of recording music. We can all play like you do but in order to have something left in your career and something to send out to the world we need to make albums. The problem is that we are scared to invest time and money as they will not sell. I can spend the rest of my life playing in pubs and small clubs everyday but that's not the solution. That leads to cancer in about 6-7 years smile.gif


Thats exactly my point Emir. To live of music in UK you probably need to perform 4 times a week with those pub type gigs. Even better, get once a week some hotel type event gig, they pay lot more then pub gigs anyways and you can still do the same repertoire. I know what you mean man. Its hard in London, living expenses and life overall is ridiculous. You have to do thing you love (Music) plus another job or if you are up for it do 4+ times a week gigs to survive...
Regarding your comment on illegal music distribution... We need to make albums to be able to promote our work, get gigs, get more connections and opportunities for future and most of all bring our music to people. The way I see it right now is people don't really care if you me or anybody else does the album. They can live without it. If we don't do it somebody else will and they will listen to that and so it goes in the circle. I think the reason for making an album should be not for financial aspect but rather promotion of your work and benefits you could get from that. Thats why I mentioned alternative ways of funding for album. It is ridiculous to invest today 10-20.000 euros in a project which will not bring you even half money back at best case scenario with style of music you and I play. So what if I do album with Joe Calderazzo? How many people do you think in my town will buy the CD because of that ? Very little if any! But I would still do it because I want my music to be played with best out there in the Jazz industry and bring it like that to my audience. It costs money sure, they charge 1000-1500$ per day in studio, I don't have that money but if government will pay for it I am all up for doing it. You get the idea - do it if you are able to, if not don't go crazy - I would be very upset to take loans to do a project that didn't work out just like your album didn't work out like you hope it would, so I am all with you - lesson learned next time look for alternative source of funding via some music organizations or non government organizations what not smile.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 15 2009, 08:03 AM

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 15 2009, 01:16 AM) *
Hm don't get me wrong Stuffy, I don't have to live of government support and funds. In fact I pay my own salary from my own pocket to government every month more than 100 euros so that I could get a pension and all the rest when I grow old smile.gif This is perfect because I have a product and they without any restrictions offer help. That money comes from governments budget and its meant to be used for cultural things in my town. They figure (and I don't blame them) that if I start a Jazz course or school and do it through them, government and city after all would benefit a lot.


Thats what I meant, the musicians here have wages like everybody else and pay their incomne taxes as well , but they do get financial support from the government to cover a tour/a recording/other cultural events that will benefit the community. By funds (I dont know how to say in English) I really mean that there are organisations like SJRF (Swedish Jazz Association) who gives away prizes to the most creative artists every year. There is also a system that shall help the small jazz clubs doin gigs with well-known artists - eg. basically the system pays the difference to the musicians in wages of what the club can pay and what the musician really costs.... This money You can apply for once each year along with a touring calendar of the gigs You made... the more gigs = the more money You are likely to get. I didn't mean any social welfare or something like that....

//Staffay

Posted by: Staffy Dec 15 2009, 08:51 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 15 2009, 01:35 AM) *
I know what you're saying Pedja. I play gigs like that every week in London. Unfortunately that job can't cover all my monthly expenses as this city is crazy expensive. I am glad if it works for you.

This topic is about illegal music distribution. Why make albums if they don't sell and is there are way to make it work properly and by the law so we can think of recording music. We can all play like you do but in order to have something left in your career and something to send out to the world we need to make albums. The problem is that we are scared to invest time and money as they will not sell. I can spend the rest of my life playing in pubs and small clubs everyday but that's not the solution. That leads to cancer in about 6-7 years smile.gif


Yeah, I agree to that one Emir! But I dont think things really dont changed regarding this fact over the past 25 years. Yesterdays people were copying on tapes instead.... When I started my musical career (if You can call it that.. tongue.gif ) it was really a DREAM to ever been able to make a record since the monopoly was even greater than today. There was no indie labels, small company's etc. simply because of that the equipment/expenses involved was far too high. So getting a record deal back then was really like winning on Lotto - You was more or less guaranteed success since all the power was in the big company's hands. So You just had two options: Play by the big companys rules and create some crappy commercial piece of music OR become a session player doin small gigs and MAYBE a record once in a while as well as hopping in on others. (like You do, if I got it right?) I will say that it is even better today, since You can at least maybe find some other people/label/studio to share the expenses for an album - also an album doesn't cost some 30-40.000 $ like in the old days.

But to return to the subject, as far I can see the pirating itself hasn't change any of the conditions for beeing a succesful musician and beeing able to make a living out of it. Things are loosening up a little bit in the past years due to other factors on the internet/in the business, but I hope it will be even better in the future... I can very well understand Your frustration over the subject - but at least You have the OPPORTUNITY to make a record, which I didn't when I started out. (just because of the money and the record monopoly)

Summing up: Before the pirating/change of the conditions - independant/creative musicians cant made a living out of selling records. Today - same situation but at least the records can be made.... Therefore I'm positive to the way of how things are changing - cause it cant be any worser than it was before..... smile.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: Neurologi Dec 15 2009, 10:40 AM

Sums it up pretty much for me. The voice of reason in an unreasoned climate. Props, Staffy! biggrin.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 15 2009, 11:05 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 14 2009, 07:38 PM) *
Then let's inovate something smile.gif



Had to leave the house and I slept a-while, but haven't faded out on this. I'm thinking... It's not a bad idea,
but Rome wasn't conceived, much less built in a day. Meanwhile, I don't know your current financial situation.
And what Pedja said... I take it since you perform some every week you are in a band that doesn't require you
personally to pay them up front for future gigs? I think to extend the avenue of your immediate income
you need some one who can set up as many gigs in advance as possible (as if you didn't know), and you
might also need to compromise the type of music you like to play to appease a variety different audiences
and atmospheres. But, if you promote yourself in different genres I'm not sure what that would do for your
rep among audiences that prefer the type of music you are now known for. Emir, the cameleon of guitar wizardry.
These are hard choices, Emir. Then again, money is money for the moment and you can always make a comeback.

Ultimately you need a band that can create a real buzz among audiences in your surrounding communities with
simple promotions, and something - maybe some kind of stunt - anything that will get exposure for your band and
get you played on the radio. Like, maybe get your band and a few other bands to do a free concert outside somewhere
(like a mini wood-stock), something that will draw a majority of your audiences combined and perhaps lure some local
media attention as well. Create demos for newer songs and get them to your local audiences and to radio stations.
Invite as many friends as possible and video tape some of your performances along with the audience responding well.
You make great sounding vids for GMC, Can't you do a few demos on your own, make copies, and keep the creative
process flowing? Anyway, I think if you do this consistently you might catch the attention of some local promoters/
investors, and when they look at your work, you want them to see dollar signs! Not like those who look at you and see
dollar signs coming out of your own pocket - yes, you'll always have their support until your money runs out! But for your
future success! Otherwise I think you should stay true to the sounds that you like in retrospect, and connect with
what's current in life and to your audience at the same time. I'm sure there are more ideas and more details that
can be added to this....... Anyway, I will catch you later. cool.gif

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Dec 15 2009, 11:30 AM

I know this is not a solution to anything, but rather a funny thought I had yesterday.

I always complain about looking back at things I've written thinking: "I could do that so much better now!". I then got to think of all those MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars etc. where you constantly have new updates with quests etc.

Maybe one could somehow imply that to music, I thought. Whenever I had re-written something or found a way to portray whatever it might be I want to have portrayed, I could re-release it! Lex Naturae 0.57, Lex Naturae 1.00, Lex Naturae 1.01 etc. tongue.gif

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Dec 15 2009, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (VictorUK @ Dec 15 2009, 12:01 PM) *
Hahaha cool.gif maybe release patch notes aswell.


Lex Naturae Patch 1.01
- Changed C for a G at 02:27 in 01. January
- Improved stability when played on Philips' CD players.
- Noted performance improvement in guitars
...

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Dec 15 2009, 01:05 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 15 2009, 08:03 AM) *
Thats what I meant, the musicians here have wages like everybody else and pay their incomne taxes as well , but they do get financial support from the government to cover a tour/a recording/other cultural events that will benefit the community. By funds (I dont know how to say in English) I really mean that there are organisations like SJRF (Swedish Jazz Association) who gives away prizes to the most creative artists every year. There is also a system that shall help the small jazz clubs doin gigs with well-known artists - eg. basically the system pays the difference to the musicians in wages of what the club can pay and what the musician really costs.... This money You can apply for once each year along with a touring calendar of the gigs You made... the more gigs = the more money You are likely to get. I didn't mean any social welfare or something like that....

//Staffay


That is fantastic Stuffy. Here in Serbia we can get money and project financed via government type organizations. If you are really working hard you can get endorsements through music shops to use their equipment when you perform. What we don't currently have in Serbia is strong musician union that can protect musicians. There is no standard rate or minimum rate. I know people that play a gig for 10 euros or less (1000 dinars or 500) and thats exactly what musician unions should do in those cases. I do however support idea of independent booking. I manged to book 8 solo gigs in advance and get payed upfront for them. Those were my conditions for 1st month of performance, after that we will arrange a new deal. The point is everybody has to fight their battle and find their path. Those government organizations won't give out money to anyone! You have to create a project, business plan, syllabus and basically show why your program should be picked out of other programs- again I say , it is all out there its just the meter of what we make out of it.

Posted by: Staffy Dec 15 2009, 01:34 PM

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Dec 15 2009, 01:05 PM) *
There is no standard rate or minimum rate. I know people that play a gig for 10 euros or less (1000 dinars or 500) and thats exactly what musician unions should do in those cases. I do however support idea of independent booking. I manged to book 8 solo gigs in advance and get payed upfront for them. Those were my conditions for 1st month of performance, after that we will arrange a new deal. The point is everybody has to fight their battle and find their path. Those government organizations won't give out money to anyone! You have to create a project, business plan, syllabus and basically show why your program should be picked out of other programs- again I say , it is all out there its just the meter of what we make out of it.


The musicians union in Sweden do have minimum wages, but the same situation rules here as well - a lot of work is done outside the union because of all taxes, regulations and other thing that makes it difficult for a venue to hire a musician. What I was talking bout was actually the situation for jazz musicians in Sweden since they are experiencing some kind of "protectionism" along with the classical musicians. Of course there are ways for rock bands and such as well, but what Im saying really applies to the top-level jazz musicians like Jacob Karlzon, Anders Bergkrantz, Nils Landgren, Thomas Franck as well as some other well kown international Swedish jazz artists.

The artists that are not so well-known maybe not benefit from these systems, but can still make a living imo. Its really as You are saying, its a matter of beeing creative and finding Your own gigs/opportunities in the business. When I was playing, I was never out of work - the reason I quitted was merely that I could'nt tour anymore because of my family, and had to play locally and got tired of playing the "wrong" music every night - it simply killed my creativity.... But it finally returned again, thank god! smile.gif

Im very happy to hear that things are working out for you - that is really a great example of what is possible even that You are playing a "conniseurs" music. It just proves that everything is possible! smile.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 21 2009, 09:20 PM

This thread is saddening. The tone of the article as well as the tone of Emir's posts sounds like musicians are getting tired of fighting the "system" and are slowly giving up. Given the circumstances I can't say I blame them. I can only imagine the blood sweat and tears that goes into making an album.....let alone the YEARS of practice to get proficient on your instrument. It sounds like it is getting near impossible to make a living as a musician and it sounds like the days of the "rich rock star" are long gone......probably never to return. Very sad to say the least...... sad.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 22 2009, 12:36 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 21 2009, 08:20 PM) *
Very sad to say the least...... sad.gif

That's my conclusion as well.

Posted by: Fran Dec 22 2009, 12:43 AM

Hey Emir, have you checked this?:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=32724

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 22 2009, 12:51 AM

QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 21 2009, 11:43 PM) *
Hey Emir, have you checked this?:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=32724

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Yeah, just seen it and replied smile.gif That's a cool one from Jason smile.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 22 2009, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 12:36 AM) *
That's my conclusion as well.

I really feel for musicians.......there are so many like Emir that have TONS of talent but apparently can't make a living doing it. It doesn't make sense......but a lot of things have changed with the internet.....both good and bad. I would have loved to be a professional musicians......only 2 things stopped me.

1) I got married young and I thought a musicians life would be tough on my family.....
2) Lack of talent........ laugh.gif

Are you pretty much out of the whole music scene Emir or are you still pursuing a music career????

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 22 2009, 01:12 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 21 2009, 11:59 PM) *
1) I got married young and I thought a musicians life would be tough on my family.....
2) Lack of talent........ laugh.gif

Are you pretty much out of the whole music scene Emir or are you still pursuing a music career????

I don't agree with the 2nd one. You are extremely talented guitarist man. And even if you didn't get married the road is very difficult, you would understand it sooner or later.

I haven't given up yet but waiting for some better times and opportunities. I am just on "stand by".

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 22 2009, 01:28 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 01:12 AM) *
I don't agree with the 2nd one. You are extremely talented guitarist man. And even if you didn't get married the road is very difficult, you would understand it sooner or later.

I haven't given up yet but waiting for some better times and opportunities. I am just on "stand by".

What is the biggest obstacle to keep you from being able to pay your bills with just music?? I've always wondered how musicians are able to do it with just music. Seems like a lot of them teach but I can't imagine it would pay your bills just teaching. How do guys like Muris do nothing but Music??? Could you do it if you lived in another country where maybe it isn't so expensive to live?? That article was really sad......so many musicians that are so dedicated and basically they get their life's work just stolen........and people even have the nerve to ASK you for your album for free.......JEEZUS...... mad.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 22 2009, 01:37 AM

In my honest opinion the whole music business is nothing else than crap, even that Im positive to the changes that we are going through now. Musicians never had it easy because of people ripping You off/gaining money at Your work. So nothing really has changed here. The music business is like all other business - its a fight about the money going on, and things like talent, skills etc. has nothing to do with success. Its rather contacts, looks, to be in style and everything bout the music itself that makes up an artist with some few exceptions. I really feel sorry for all talented musicians out there like Emir and others (including You lcsdds, I've been watching Your vids.. smile.gif ) who is struggling with their careers. But as I said, nothing is really new under the sun - beeing a musician is one of the hardest professions one can get, and has always been....

//Staffay

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 22 2009, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 01:12 AM) *
I don't agree with the 2nd one. You are extremely talented guitarist man. And even if you didn't get married the road is very difficult, you would understand it sooner or later.

I haven't given up yet but waiting for some better times and opportunities. I am just on "stand by".

Emir , find the free song thread- this is your dedication

Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 22 2009, 03:55 AM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 22 2009, 12:28 AM) *
How do guys like Muris do nothing but Music???

He is the only one in that country that I know who can live of guitar. Trust me I know every single guitarist in Bosnia. He is the lucky one smile.gif If I ever decide to go back and live there I don't think I would be that lucky even though everyone knows me there, TV, radio, magazines, bands, musicians ... He just happened to be the one and I am very happy for him.

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 22 2009, 12:37 AM) *
beeing a musician is one of the hardest professions one can get, and has always been....

True.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 22 2009, 02:34 AM) *
Emir , find the free song thread- this is your dedication

Link?

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 22 2009, 02:25 PM




Link?[/quote]
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=32726

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 22 2009, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Dec 22 2009, 01:37 AM) *
In my honest opinion the whole music business is nothing else than crap, even that Im positive to the changes that we are going through now. Musicians never had it easy because of people ripping You off/gaining money at Your work. So nothing really has changed here. The music business is like all other business - its a fight about the money going on, and things like talent, skills etc. has nothing to do with success. Its rather contacts, looks, to be in style and everything bout the music itself that makes up an artist with some few exceptions. I really feel sorry for all talented musicians out there like Emir and others (including You lcsdds, I've been watching Your vids.. smile.gif ) who is struggling with their careers. But as I said, nothing is really new under the sun - beeing a musician is one of the hardest professions one can get, and has always been....

//Staffay

I don't know anything about the music business but I did own my own dental practice for about 8 years. I must say that the business world is a very "dirty" world. It seems like the people with the least ethics and principles are the ones who are the most "successful". I finally decided that I didn't want to be "successful".......I am now just and employee and MUCH happier. smile.gif

A lot of these big corporations are nothing but criminals who dress in suits......kind of like the mafia......but at least with the mafia you KNOW where you stand........ laugh.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 22 2009, 04:23 PM

Emir, Do you know the names/ web addresses of any websites
that pirate your album out to its users? If so, you can
look up who owns that website (the registrar) and the
web-hosting company being used to project it over the net
via the link: http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp
In many cases results provided will show the street address,
phone number, IP of the registrar (owner), etc. You can also
start by reporting these pirates to the web-hosting company
of the registrar itself, as well as to agencies like the RIAA
(Recording Industry Association of America)...:
https://www.riaa.com/reportpiracy.php
...and to any other agencies that apply to
regions where these website owners reside.

Also check out ICANN : http://www.icann.org/tr/english.html
ICANN does not control data sharing or distribution, but they
do regulate (Internationally) web address allocation and provide
useful information on how it all works.

Moreover, take some screen shots of the pirating websites
that advertise your album being offered before you report them
- before the owner has a chance to find out it's HOT and removes
the violating web-pages (to maintain proof). Anyway, it's a start.
And for them, perhaps, the nightmare begins.... ph34r.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 22 2009, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 22 2009, 04:23 PM) *
Emir, Do you know the names/ web addresses of any websites
that pirate your album out to its users? If so, you can
look up who owns that website (the registrar) and the
web-hosting company being used to project it over the net
via the link: http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp
In many cases results provided will show the street address,
phone number, IP of the registrar (owner), etc. You can also
start by reporting these pirates to the web-hosting company
of the registrar itself, as well as to agencies like the RIAA
(Recording Industry Association of America)...:
https://www.riaa.com/reportpiracy.php
...and to any other agencies that apply to
regions where these website owners reside.

Also check out ICANN : http://www.icann.org/tr/english.html
ICANN does not control data sharing or distribution, but they
do regulate (Internationally) web address allocation and provide
useful information on how it all works.

Moreover, take some screen shots of the pirating websites
that advertise your album being offered before you report them
- before the owner has a chance to find out it's HOT and removes
the violating web-pages (to maintain proof). Anyway, it's a start.
And for them, perhaps, the nightmare begins.... ph34r.gif

Seems like that would be a full time job trying to keep up with that...... ohmy.gif

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Dec 22 2009, 07:07 PM

I don't want to get involved in this discussion to much, but there are few points that one should take into consideration.

1. guitar is a hobby, of course rising skill is a hard work, but so is mixing concrete, cooking in a restaurant etc.etc.etc. In opposite to those other works, guitar bring us enjoyment and happiness, so phrases like "I practiced so much and get nothing from it!" are not 100% true. Also look at other hobbies, for example sport-like activities/working-out --> people put same amount of time/sweat in it, as other put in guitar playing, and the pleasure of doing so is most often enough of a pay.

2. guitar virtuosity isn't a product that rises interest in bigger amounts of people. This means not only, that there isn't "success space" for many pro guitar players, simply because there isn't enough people willing to buy albums of all of them.

3. Saying things like "X people downloaded my music, and so I lose X x(this little x is a mathematical symbol) price of the album" is totally wrong --> some people are on a complete download rampage, download everything. Than they listen to it one or two times, sometimes they even don't notice what is in their 100 downloaded album playlist. The truth is that downloaded albums and "not bought" albums have very little to do with each other. So most probably 1000 downloaded albums result in 50 "not bought" albums, not 1000... I know that I probably wouldn't buy an album if I haven't heard it before anywhere, or just heard some short clip mp3's. To many times I bought crappy music (in my opinion), because I heard only one song, which happened to be the only good song on the whole CD.


4. Thing that I wrote already --> to many artist/bands. Maybe I am wrong, but for me, in the past guitar music was much more "mainstream", and there weren't so many bands worth checking out. Lets say that people in my town are interested in buying 100.000 CD a year, and now they have 100.000 bands to choose from. It is obvious, that only few of those artist will sell many records.


I think I wrote enough for now, just to be clear --> I am against illegal downloads, and buy CD's/MP3 even though it costs a lot. Still I am against writing so much phantasmagoria as it was written in the article. Writing about a baker work was just ridiculous --> baker earns something like 500-600$ per month here in Poland, maybe he want to work 10 hours per day for few years for that money?

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 22 2009, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Dec 22 2009, 07:07 PM) *
I don't want to get involved in this discussion to much, but there are few points that one should take into consideration.

1. guitar is a hobby, of course rising skill is a hard work, but so is mixing concrete, cooking in a restaurant etc.etc.etc. In opposite to those other works, guitar bring us enjoyment and happiness, so phrases like "I practiced so much and get nothing from it!" are not 100% true. Also look at other hobbies, for example sport-like activities/working-out --> people put same amount of time/sweat in it, as other put in guitar playing, and the pleasure of doing so is most often enough of a pay.

2. guitar virtuosity isn't a product that rises interest in bigger amounts of people. This means not only, that there isn't "success space" for many pro guitar players, simply because there isn't enough people willing to buy albums of all of them.

3. Saying things like "X people downloaded my music, and so I lose X x(this little x is a mathematical symbol) price of the album" is totally wrong --> some people are on a complete download rampage, download everything. Than they listen to it one or two times, sometimes they even don't notice what is in their 100 downloaded album playlist. The truth is that downloaded albums and "not bought" albums have very little to do with each other. So most probably 1000 downloaded albums result in 50 "not bought" albums, not 1000... I know that I probably wouldn't buy an album if I haven't heard it before anywhere, or just heard some short clip mp3's. To many times I bought crappy music (in my opinion), because I heard only one song, which happened to be the only good song on the whole CD.


4. Thing that I wrote already --> to many artist/bands. Maybe I am wrong, but for me, in the past guitar music was much more "mainstream", and there weren't so many bands worth checking out. Lets say that people in my town are interested in buying 100.000 CD a year, and now they have 100.000 bands to choose from. It is obvious, that only few of those artist will sell many records.


I think I wrote enough for now, just to be clear --> I am against illegal downloads, and buy CD's/MP3 even though it costs a lot. Still I am against writing so much phantasmagoria as it was written in the article. Writing about a baker work was just ridiculous --> baker earns something like 500-600$ per month here in Poland, maybe he want to work 10 hours per day for few years for that money?

Agreed.....mostly.... laugh.gif

People/musicians like Emir have consciously approached guitar as a career. To me guitar is a "hobby".....but to others it is a passion as well as a way for them to make a living. If Emir took a year out of his life and spent a lot of money recording an album with the hopes that he would be able to make enough money to live and be able to make another album then it really sucks that people are "stealing" his work and keeping him from being able to do this. Nobody is saying that being a guitarist is more important than being a baker. All we are saying is that if you want to have Emir's album in your collection then pay him for it.......it didn't come out of thin air......somebody had to make it and invested a lot of time, effort and money to make it. If you don't want it then don't buy.....but don't steal it........ smile.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 22 2009, 09:49 PM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 22 2009, 11:31 AM) *
Seems like that would be a full time job trying to keep up with that...... ohmy.gif


Anything worth while, like playing guitar for instance, may take some time.
It appears to me, trying to appeal to the conscience of each and every potential
buyer in the entire world not to accept illegal downloads at a discount or even
for free warrants a much bigger challenge than what I suggested. Like the death
of music. If you eliminate the bootlegger, the drinker has no place to go other
than to a legitimate source. But unlike bootlegging or drug dealing, everything
indexed on the internet is stored as data and traceable - you can run but you
can't hide. Take a few down and that fear may create a domino effect. There is
strength in numbers, hence, the musicians union I mentioned earlier. How many
pirate sites can you find in one day? These are only suggestions.

I read an article where a music company is attempting to sue all the people (tens
of thousands) who downloaded music from a confiscated pirate site. Unfortunately,
I did not bookmark that article and can't find it now. Point being, even those
individuals who downloaded the music can be traced (via IP). There is also an
IP Look-up database: http://ip-lookup.net But, this one usually only yields the
users internet provider, through whom you might then obtain more information
on the individual by lawful means. Anyway, when the going gets tough...
Thanks for responding. smile.gif

Posted by: JamesT Dec 22 2009, 09:54 PM

At least for one, I can say that my entire music collection was purchased with my own hard earned cash, including some of the albums from the instructors here at GMC. For me, fifteen bucks isn't all that much money if not more than to say thank you to the artist who worked so hard to produce it. My music collection is not exactly huge, but for me it's fun and good to know that I bought each song/album for a reason whether it be because I know or have associations with the artist, or just because I liked one of the songs that I heard on the radio. Each item in my collection carries with it a memory of some sort. I don't think you can get that sort of thing by downloading in mega proportions.

The digital age has surely changed a lot with regard to how any kind of media is distributed and sold. Bon Jovi has a good song called "Last Man Standing" that talks about that somewhat. "The last man standing. Step right up, here's your new career. The last man standing, come and see, hear, feel ... the real thing." Actually, I think he's talking more about something that the digital age can never replace and that is live music.

So, from me to you, I would make a request that you keep on playing. Play it live. No-one can take that away from you. Live music is another part of music that's getting murdered by the digital age too. All in all, I've got to agree that for commercial success in music, we've got to come up with a new business model that embraces the ease with which media can be distributed. I can't say that I have any answers though. Maybe I could write a song about it or something. smile.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 22 2009, 10:01 PM

QUOTE (JamesT @ Dec 22 2009, 02:54 PM) *
At least for one, I can say that my entire music collection was purchased with my own hard earned cash, including some of the albums from the instructors here at GMC. For me, fifteen bucks isn't all that much money if not more than to say thank you to the artist who worked so hard to produce it. My music collection is not exactly huge, but for me it's fun and good to know that I bought each song/album for a reason whether it be because I know or have associations with the artist, or just because I liked one of the songs that I heard on the radio. Each item in my collection carries with it a memory of some sort. I don't think you can get that sort of thing by downloading in mega proportions.

The digital age has surely changed a lot with regard to how any kind of media is distributed and sold. Bon Jovi has a good song called "Last Man Standing" that talks about that somewhat. "The last man standing. Step right up, here's your new career. The last man standing, come and see, hear, feel ... the real thing." Actually, I think he's talking more about something that the digital age can never replace and that is live music.

So, from me to you, I would make a request that you keep on playing. Play it live. No-one can take that away from you. Live music is another part of music that's getting murdered by the digital age too. All in all, I've got to agree that for commercial success in music, we've got to come up with a new business model that embraces the ease with which media can be distributed. I can't say that I have any answers though. Maybe I could write a song about it or something. smile.gif



Cool guy. I would like to hear that song... cool.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 22 2009, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (intemperateControl @ Dec 22 2009, 09:49 PM) *
Anything worth while, like playing guitar for instance, may take some time.
It appears to me, trying to appeal to the conscience of each and every potential
buyer in the entire world not to accept illegal downloads at a discount or even
for free warrants a much bigger challenge than what I suggested. Like the death
of music. If you eliminate the bootlegger, the drinker has no place to go other
than to a legitimate source. But unlike bootlegging or drug dealing, everything
indexed on the internet is stored as data and traceable - you can run but you
can't hide. Take a few down and that fear may create a domino effect. There is
strength in numbers, hence, the musicians union I mentioned earlier. How many
pirate sites can you find in one day? These are only suggestions.

I read an article where a music company is attempting to sue all the people (tens
of thousands) who downloaded music from a confiscated pirate site. Unfortunately,
I did not bookmark that article and can't find it now. Point being, even those
individuals who downloaded the music can be traced (via IP). There is also an
IP Look-up database: http://ip-lookup.net But, this one usually only yields the
users internet provider, through whom you might then obtain more information
on the individual by lawful means. Anyway, when the going gets tough...
Thanks for responding. smile.gif

I definitely see where you are coming from and agree with it. I just meant that for ONE person like Emir to do this might not work. A large corporation would have the means and manpower to do that much more easily than just one person. It's sad that people think it's OK to steal.....even if they don't think that is what they are doing....... sad.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 22 2009, 11:04 PM

ALL THIS TALK ABOUT stealing or buying music and i can't even give it away
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=32726

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 22 2009, 11:50 PM

QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 22 2009, 03:45 PM) *
I definitely see where you are coming from and agree with it. I just meant that for ONE person like Emir to do this might not work. A large corporation would have the means and manpower to do that much more easily than just one person. It's sad that people think it's OK to steal.....even if they don't think that is what they are doing....... sad.gif


Yea, for Emir the task might prove a bit tedious - and I agree it is sad.
On the other hand, who better than Emir (or his former label) to know which
stores or web-sites do have the right to sell his album? If I had a list of
them, then I would know that any other store or web-site attempting to sell
or distribute his album must be pirating. But, it's Emir and/ or his label
that must take any necessary lawful action. A union type label of some sort
should be used on all legitimate selling albums, electronic (embedded in the
coding) or otherwise visible along with traceable bar-codes on CDs, or something.
As I understand, Emir Hot has lost a-lot of money during his career due to pirating.
Anyhow, good observation. Hang loose, man. smile.gif

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 22 2009, 04:04 PM) *
ALL THIS TALK ABOUT stealing or buying music and i can't even give it away
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=32726


Hey, it looks like you have gotten 38 downloads on this site alone in the
last 2 DAYS - not bad for being relatively outdated and unknown. Maybe
you guys should get together and try again. Imagine what it might do on
10,000 websites if you created something new and became relatively
better known. Just an observation. Gotta go now - catch everyone later. smile.gif

Ps.


Posted by: Emir Hot Dec 23 2009, 03:53 AM

This is the copy from Lion Music website about signing new artists. I hope this explains enough:

Dear Musicians,

We are NOT able to sign more artists. No demos or masters you send us will be considered for release. We will NOT listen to any mp3 files or check out your websites and we will NOT respond to questions regarding releasing your album.

The illegal file sharing on the net is killing independent music. We are sorry about this situation but we are sure you are aware of what is going on. Our demo policy will not change before our politicians have stopped the P2P sites. Illegal file sharing is not just about stealing from rich major companies. It is about killing independent music and making it impossible for many great musicians to have a chance to release albums and have a musical career even as a part time job.

Some people seem to think that file sharing does not affect record sales but these people don't know what they are talking about. All musical genres and all kinds of artists are suffering and so will the genuine music fans in the end when the music they love will no longer be available in any guise - free or not. Next time you consider downloading an album for free or adding new torrents please think of the impact you are having on the artists - would you like it if we came into your home and stole your pay check?

To give you some facts and figures on how this is affecting just some of Lion Music releases please view below - stats taken from just 1 non leading bit torrent site (we are not going to give free advertising to which site it is):


*
Angel Of Eden - The End Of Never : 9276 illegal downloads and rising!

Sphere Of Souls - From The Ashes : 6445 illegal downloads and rising!

Sun Caged - Sun Caged : 6383 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Mercy Falls : 6160 illegal downloads and rising!

Twinspirits - The Music That Will Heal The World: 5059 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Waiting In The Wings : 4942 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Sun Caged - Artemisia: 4920 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Become : 2757 illegal downloads and rising!

Satyrian - Eternitas : 2688 illegal downloads and rising!

Marco Sfogli - There's Hope : 2653 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Tears Of Anger - In The Shadows : 2504 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Section A - Parallel Lives : 1926 illegal downloads and rising!

Venturia - Hybrid : 1800 illegal downloads and rising

Joe Stump - Virtuostic Vendetta : 1621 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Tomorrow's Eve - Mirror Of Creation II The Genesis : 1545 illegal downloads and rising!

Astra - From Within : 1400 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Mind's Eye - Walking on H20 : 1345 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Vitalij Kuprij - Glacial Inferno - 1339 illegal downloads and rising



Someone said that we should trace IP addresses of websites that are sharing download links. There are thousands of them, that's just not possible. Just type "Emir Hot" in Google. 70% of the search results are torrent sites smile.gif Not to mention some better known musicians. I am actually nobody comparing to other good metal bands.

I didn't expect that this topic will have most of "Emir Hot" examples even though I am very affected with this subject. This was about Borislav Mitic who made a statement on Lion Music website and I wanted to hear oppinions on that story.

Posted by: lcsdds Dec 23 2009, 06:13 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 23 2009, 03:53 AM) *
This is the copy from Lion Music website about signing new artists. I hope this explains enough:

Dear Musicians,

We are NOT able to sign more artists. No demos or masters you send us will be considered for release. We will NOT listen to any mp3 files or check out your websites and we will NOT respond to questions regarding releasing your album.

The illegal file sharing on the net is killing independent music. We are sorry about this situation but we are sure you are aware of what is going on. Our demo policy will not change before our politicians have stopped the P2P sites. Illegal file sharing is not just about stealing from rich major companies. It is about killing independent music and making it impossible for many great musicians to have a chance to release albums and have a musical career even as a part time job.

Some people seem to think that file sharing does not affect record sales but these people don't know what they are talking about. All musical genres and all kinds of artists are suffering and so will the genuine music fans in the end when the music they love will no longer be available in any guise - free or not. Next time you consider downloading an album for free or adding new torrents please think of the impact you are having on the artists - would you like it if we came into your home and stole your pay check?

To give you some facts and figures on how this is affecting just some of Lion Music releases please view below - stats taken from just 1 non leading bit torrent site (we are not going to give free advertising to which site it is):


*
Angel Of Eden - The End Of Never : 9276 illegal downloads and rising!

Sphere Of Souls - From The Ashes : 6445 illegal downloads and rising!

Sun Caged - Sun Caged : 6383 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Mercy Falls : 6160 illegal downloads and rising!

Twinspirits - The Music That Will Heal The World: 5059 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Waiting In The Wings : 4942 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Sun Caged - Artemisia: 4920 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Become : 2757 illegal downloads and rising!

Satyrian - Eternitas : 2688 illegal downloads and rising!

Marco Sfogli - There's Hope : 2653 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Tears Of Anger - In The Shadows : 2504 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Section A - Parallel Lives : 1926 illegal downloads and rising!

Venturia - Hybrid : 1800 illegal downloads and rising

Joe Stump - Virtuostic Vendetta : 1621 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Tomorrow's Eve - Mirror Of Creation II The Genesis : 1545 illegal downloads and rising!

Astra - From Within : 1400 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Mind's Eye - Walking on H20 : 1345 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Vitalij Kuprij - Glacial Inferno - 1339 illegal downloads and rising



Someone said that we should trace IP addresses of websites that are sharing download links. There are thousands of them, that's just not possible. Just type "Emir Hot" in Google. 70% of the search results are torrent sites smile.gif Not to mention some better known musicians. I am actually nobody comparing to other good metal bands.

I didn't expect that this topic will have most of "Emir Hot" examples even though I am very affected with this subject. This was about Borislav Mitic who made a statement on Lion Music website and I wanted to hear oppinions on that story.


WOW!!! That is really sad news....but totally understandable. You can't give away your product....or in this case have it stolen from you and expect to stay in business for very long. This does not bode well for the future of independent and more specifically instrumental guitar music.....which I for one LOVE!!

Emir.....what do you see happening? Do you see instrumental guitar music basically just dissapearing? I mean how could anybody be expected to put so much time, effort and money into something that they will not get any kind of a return on their investment on?? Unless you have a lot of money already I don't see how this would be possible. So where does that leave independent music?.........just where the title of the thread says......MURDERED.......by the very people that supposedly loved it. sad.gif

Posted by: intemperateControl Dec 23 2009, 06:50 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 22 2009, 08:53 PM) *
This is the copy from Lion Music website about signing new artists. I hope this explains enough:

Dear Musicians,

We are NOT able to sign more artists. No demos or masters you send us will be considered for release. We will NOT listen to any mp3 files or check out your websites and we will NOT respond to questions regarding releasing your album.

The illegal file sharing on the net is killing independent music. We are sorry about this situation but we are sure you are aware of what is going on. Our demo policy will not change before our politicians have stopped the P2P sites. Illegal file sharing is not just about stealing from rich major companies. It is about killing independent music and making it impossible for many great musicians to have a chance to release albums and have a musical career even as a part time job.

Some people seem to think that file sharing does not affect record sales but these people don't know what they are talking about. All musical genres and all kinds of artists are suffering and so will the genuine music fans in the end when the music they love will no longer be available in any guise - free or not. Next time you consider downloading an album for free or adding new torrents please think of the impact you are having on the artists - would you like it if we came into your home and stole your pay check?

To give you some facts and figures on how this is affecting just some of Lion Music releases please view below - stats taken from just 1 non leading bit torrent site (we are not going to give free advertising to which site it is):


*
Angel Of Eden - The End Of Never : 9276 illegal downloads and rising!

Sphere Of Souls - From The Ashes : 6445 illegal downloads and rising!

Sun Caged - Sun Caged : 6383 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Mercy Falls : 6160 illegal downloads and rising!

Twinspirits - The Music That Will Heal The World: 5059 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Waiting In The Wings : 4942 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Sun Caged - Artemisia: 4920 illegal downloads and rising!

Seventh Wonder - Become : 2757 illegal downloads and rising!

Satyrian - Eternitas : 2688 illegal downloads and rising!

Marco Sfogli - There's Hope : 2653 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Tears Of Anger - In The Shadows : 2504 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Section A - Parallel Lives : 1926 illegal downloads and rising!

Venturia - Hybrid : 1800 illegal downloads and rising

Joe Stump - Virtuostic Vendetta : 1621 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Tomorrow's Eve - Mirror Of Creation II The Genesis : 1545 illegal downloads and rising!

Astra - From Within : 1400 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Mind's Eye - Walking on H20 : 1345 illegal downloads and rising!
*
Vitalij Kuprij - Glacial Inferno - 1339 illegal downloads and rising



Someone said that we should trace IP addresses of websites that are sharing download links. There are thousands of them, that's just not possible. Just type "Emir Hot" in Google. 70% of the search results are torrent sites smile.gif Not to mention some better known musicians. I am actually nobody comparing to other good metal bands.

I didn't expect that this topic will have most of "Emir Hot" examples even though I am very affected with this subject. This was about Borislav Mitic who made a statement on Lion Music website and I wanted to hear oppinions on that story.


True, we ourselves should not try and track IP's, but they can be stored
on the web servers that host those pirate sites etc. - and even they can't
keep up with them all. Isolating the problem per site and reporting it
accordingly through the proper channels while gathering evidence before
the fact, etc. Blagh, blagh, blagh...

My opinion on the article is that it is well written, emotional, and
compares intellectual copyright theft with physical theft to get the
point across. It makes me feel sorry for the artists who dedicate
their lives to producing music for a living. It makes me angry at
those who take advantage of them unfairly. It made me want to act.
Either way, doing nothing will accomplish nothing. I hope it all changes
for the better. Guess I'm out - all the best to you man. mellow.gif

Posted by: Staffy Dec 23 2009, 09:41 AM

Hmm, it's really some sad figures - but it doesn't tell if the people who downloaded the music ever listened to it or liked it. Neither i'ts not comparable with anything, eg. how many copies had been made CD to CD or CD to tape if the internet wasn't around? Violating the copyright has always been a problem, with the tapes there was a special tax on them from the beginning what I can remember. Maybe that's the way to go - in Sweden we pay a license for the TV, so why not for the internet? But then we would be violating the free speech....

We had a trial here against one citizen who illegaly spread music/movies on P2P-sites and he was sentenced to some 100.000 € in fines, but it turned out as a joke since he was supposed to ask for a new trial and the record/movie companys then paid all his fines if he didn't..... So there wasn't that much fuzz about it.

I don't think there is much to do in legal terms to stop pirating - via the internet, by copying or whatever. The record companys/artists must simply find new ways to distribute the music to the audience and get paid. Like the mobile market works for instance, if You sign up for a 12-month period with a mobile operator - You get three months of free music. The phone company then pays the rights owners and everyone is happy. Get the point? Selling CD's is a market that will be gone in the future in my belief, and music will be more like other products like food, clothes etc. Also I think it's the record company's responsebility to take care of that the artists will get paid - in contrast to what they do now, they just sitting there and wining over all the money THEY looses instead of acting and doing something creative. Just my thoughts....

//Staffay

Posted by: blindwillie Jan 9 2010, 03:32 PM

A band making another statement
Homepage: http://www.rednexmusic.com/
Official release page: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5263628/Rednex_-_Devils_On_The_Loose_-_2010_-_TPB003

Posted by: Emir Hot Jan 9 2010, 04:18 PM

Well good luck to them smile.gif They have made their money so now they can obviously release one single and a video for free smile.gif

Posted by: Frankster Jan 9 2010, 04:29 PM

Hello!

I have a question to this topic!

Where are the statistics ?

How many people downloaded your stuff ?
You are speaking like a big major label, "the internet and downloadig is the death of music .........".

1.) How many people downloaded your stuff and then bought your CD
2.) How many people downloaded your stuff and would never buy a CD
3.) How many people bought your CD


Thanks
Frankster

Posted by: Emir Hot Jan 9 2010, 05:22 PM

Sorry are you asking me to answer these? I have statistics and the numbers are not really promissing so I won't list it here. The numbers are surely 80% accurate and that's enough to nearly see the real situation. Maybe partnering with Pirate Bay can help, like Rednex did smile.gif


I never said "the internet and downloadig is the death of music ........." even though I could mostly agree to that.

This thread is for sharing oppinions on Borislav Mitic's statement about "The Murder of Music" which can be found http://www.lionmusic.com/murderofmusic.html.

Posted by: Frankster Jan 9 2010, 05:53 PM

Hi!

Thanks for the answer.

Sorry for "the internet and downloadig is the death of music", that was my fault biggrin.gif


Posted by: jafomatic Feb 12 2010, 07:26 PM

More on the subject (irony: via jack conte's twitter) here:

http://techdirt.com/articles/20100208/0300578077.shtml

Posted by: JVM Feb 12 2010, 07:55 PM

QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 12 2010, 01:26 PM) *
More on the subject (irony: via jack conte's twitter) here:

http://techdirt.com/articles/20100208/0300578077.shtml


+1. This is mostly how I feel.

I find it a bit interesting that we have such absolutely polarized opinions on this subject, which to me suggests there is some confusion out there. Thats understandable, considering how much of a change the music industry is going through. But I do believe things are changing for the better, it will take adaption, experimentation with new ideas and strategies of marketing and a fresh new perspective.

Posted by: Staffy Feb 12 2010, 08:48 PM

+1 from me as well. He says exactly what I mean here:

"As far as I can tell, Harden's real complaint isn't that rock 'n' roll is dying, but that a major label won't just turn him into a rockstar. Instead, he might have to actually do some work to build up a fan base, and that's icky: "

"The fact that more musicians are making music today and being able to release it and make a living from it than ever before suggests that things are actually looking much better, and we're far from "the death of rock 'n' roll," but reaching an incredible age of creativity, where people who had no chance at all before are now able to make music and make a living."


As I said before, generally speaking the trend is: the labels is out - the musicians themselves are in, the key to success is now in Your own hands!

//Staffay

Posted by: jafomatic Feb 12 2010, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 12 2010, 01:48 PM) *
As I said before, generally speaking the trend is: the labels is out - the musicians themselves are in, the key to success is now in Your own hands!


This is what I've been failing to communicate as well. Laboring extra hard under the assumption that the "old way" is the only way is what keeps rigid-thinking artists and labels in the dark about the possibilities exist today.

Posted by: JVM Feb 12 2010, 09:32 PM

I think a lot of the state of the art recording stuff that costs many hundreds-thousands is a big reason 'label' artists are struggling, or at least I'm guessing. A very nice quality recording, well past the quality level that the masses are capable of distinguishing is easily made in home studios now. There are probably many ways to cut costs like this. The other day at work (I work as an intern with a local record label) they actually asked me to put a torrent up of one of their more successful artists, as a marketing thing. This works well with established musicians, but obviously not so well with the not established. But establishing yourself comes down to hard work, playing live in front of your local audience until you can get a bigger stage, open for some bigger band or something. It all takes some degree of luck anyway, no different than with a big label behind you.

Posted by: Staffy Feb 12 2010, 10:30 PM

Agree JVM, what I'm seeing here is that the "cheating" the big labels have done in the past 30 years or so, is going down the drain - since if You wanna be successful under the new circumstances You MUST know how to perform and deliver something that is audible - eg. there will be no more Samantha Fox's and good looking boy's band put together from the labels in order to gain easy money.
The same goes for the internet marketing - if You dont sound good, playing stuff that people like - You're out. Hard but true.
But in general the music itself will benefit from this, since its gonna leave all amateurs/plastic artists without work.

//Staffay

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 12 2010, 11:45 PM

I'd like to ask the people who are against free downloading of music here:

Are you against all kinds of illegal downloading of music? For example, some of my friends download in this way: they download an album - if they like it, they run to the music shop and buy it. If they don't like it: heck, they wouldn't have bought it anyway. So what they do there is actually increasing the money flow towards musicians - since they are loath to buying albums they haven't listened to. So are you against those people's actions, too? If so, then why?

I understand that these kinds of people are very few and they do not represent the whole downloading population - more like the small good crack of it. I think this kind of behaviour is the right thing to do, since it gives the opportunity to get to support artists they wouldn't have heard of otherwise.

What do you think? smile.gif

Posted by: tonymiro Feb 13 2010, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (Kristian Hyvarinen @ Feb 12 2010, 11:45 PM) *
I'd like to ask the people who are against free downloading of music here:

Are you against all kinds of illegal downloading of music?


Yes

QUOTE
For example, some of my friends download in this way: they download an album - if they like it, they run to the music shop and buy it. If they don't like it: heck, they wouldn't have bought it anyway. So what they do there is actually increasing the money flow towards musicians - since they are loath to buying albums they haven't listened to. So are you against those people's actions, too? If so, then why?


There are many legal ways to hear music - try the radio/spotify/LastFM and so on wink.gif . Many groups release samples for free or cds/records at low price. Some labels do so to.


Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Feb 13 2010, 09:09 AM

Maybe I'm quibbling over the details here, but I still want to go on. biggrin.gif

So if a person hears an album he likes and goes to buy it, what's the difference if he's downloaded it from the net or heard it from Spotify?

I repeat that I really am just focusing on a small group of people here, but this interests me.

Posted by: Staffy Feb 13 2010, 09:35 AM

I'm also against illegal downloads - but the problem will remain until the record industry/musicians shapes up and offers some decent alternatives. I don't even think of getting a lousy MP3 with my favourite artist, since it sounds like crap comparing with the real product. What I'm saying (like I did earlier here) is that the industry must adopt the internet and create other ways to spread the music than going to a record store and buy it over disc. I agree that illegal downloads works as a "teaser" for a small number of people though, but most of the people into illegal downloading are actually young people who never mind to buy the records anyway.

Spotify is a great idea - even that the royalties paid back to the labels/musicians are ridiculous low. Also it contains mostly the already established artists, hence - there is not really a market for publishing new artists/music ( if You dont advertising) But also here I must complain bout the sound-quality which is awful, it sounds like Im sitting in the back of my car or something.... tongue.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: Keilnoth Feb 13 2010, 10:48 AM

Deezer became quite good as well to listen to music. I think alternatives are emerging. Too bad it took so long.

But still a LOT of music is missing or not even available in some countries. I would be more than happy to pay 20$/month for that kind of media but they are not reliable for now. You never know if tomorrow they will still exist and broadcast the music you like.

Posted by: Gitarrero Feb 13 2010, 03:16 PM

I want to agree to what Kristian said before. I am or was that kind of person that would illegally download music, and if I disliked it, I would delete it. If I liked it, I would go and buy the record, and later on buy more records and go to concerts. But of course, there is only a small group of people who act that way. I already discussed this with Marcus Siepen in his forum, since Blind Guardian is in of these band from which I illegally downloaded one album, and now I legally bought a couple more and will go to their concert in october.
I think nowadays there are other ways to listen to music before you buy it, be it the legal teasers on amazon or itunes or the semi-legal stuff on youtube ( I think most of it is legal now, is it?), where you can listen to whole albums...
Most record stores give you the opportunity to listen to a CD in the store when you ask them. That's why I don't download stuff illegally anymore.

Posted by: sted Feb 14 2010, 01:20 PM

I cant tell you how many times Ive heard something on the radio, bought the album and the next day throw it in the rack to forget about it or even in some cases thrown it in the bin, literally! Does anyone beleive that the music industry is concerned over people who buy an album of utter garbage? I didnt think so.
I just feel completely and utterly cheated by record labels, TV, radio, its all just one massive con, the media saturation given to mainstream artists makes me sick and the music they produce is nothing but mass produced over processed crap.
Im really sorry that real musicians find themselves caught up in this one way relationship with the music industry and feel that they need to be signed to a label to garner any success, obviously the measure of "success" here is how much money can be earnt from music rather than the actual success of making good music that people will listen to.
I for one will not shed any tears over the death of the music "industry",you will reap what you sow and it deserves to die in my opinion for the way it has turned the gift to humanity that is music into a commodity to be brokered to the people who create it. Music will never die, it will evolve and it will thrive, it will find a way, it will be a darwinian process but unfortunately we are at the point now where it has to happen.
Artists need to wise up, if I like your music I will buy it, I dont care if its off itunes or off your website or off you at a gig (I recently saw aynsley lister a brit blues musician, he finished the gig, came off stage and went straight to the back of the venue to start selling CD's, I bought two) I will not buy music pushed on me by the media machine that is X factor, newspapers, MTV, in fact I would go as far as to say I would go out of my way to encourage people to illegally download it and destroy it forever, of course it will never happen because the masses are brainwashed to accept these false idols.
I know this post will win me few friends but I am honest in my beleif that real music will find its way and i will support those people with my hard earned cash forever, that I promise, but I will not sympathise with an industry that has only ever exploited people for its own ends.

Posted by: stratman79 Feb 15 2010, 12:57 AM

This is a really interesting thread...

Just read all 9 pages, some good points and arguments.

I know P2P file sharing is a lot more rife but surely everyone used to copy tapes when they where kids?

Its always been a problem but just because people can download your music it doesn't mean that if the option wasn't there they would buy your CD, if 100 people illegally download your music how many of them would have bought your CD/MP3?

I know it doesn't make it right and they still are effectivily stealing but realistically it hasn't cost you...

There where a couple of points made early on that I thought where a bit misguided...

The whole hiphop/electronic music thing been an easy way out. I've got a good mate who does the whole (uk) Hiphop thing and he has mad skills. He's been DJ'ing for over 25years, won national championships years ago (when it used to mean something). He practises for hours a day, gigs 2-3 times a week when not on tour, makes and produces albums and runs events. PLus he still has to work in a record store 3 days a week. It's not an easy way out for sure. I know the rappers he works with put in a lot of hours and work very hard towards there profession.

I think if your not with a major then you have to look at different ways to marlet yourself. When we released stuff we'd press a 1000 45's (7inch vinyl) and not release CD's. That way we knew we'd never sell masses but enough to create a buzz and earn some cash and in the scene we where in it (heavy funk) most of the people buying where DJ's. We'd also make CD's of collection of the singles to sell at gigs.

Its all about creating a scene, I started running a night and bringing other bands from scene (from all over europe) to our night to create a buzz around us in our home town and then get return gigs in there towns & cities. After releasing 45's through a couple of labels then we started press the records up our self and just get a distro deal, to get more of the monies ourself...

Emir, London is a brutal city to be working as a musicain in , (surely only behind LA and New York) regarding work isn't there some other guitar orinated work someone of your ability can look into.

Teaching wise have you looked in to some of the guitar techs. (ACM, BIMM or GT)
Writing for guitar techniques or some other publications.
As one of the other instructors said picking up a regular function gig and give you your rent guarrented.
Doing clinics for a guitar manufactor, a friend of mine does drum clinic for mapex, roland and paste and makes a good living out of it.

Session wise its really hard, Guthrie, Dave K, Pete Callard are all there to compete against but if you get in to one of the above then hopefully some of those players will pass work on to you.

Guthrie didn't get any breaks until he was in his 40, and now he is playing for Dizzy Rascal and (not only doing his own stuff)

I don't think Guthrie got paid to take a year off to make his album

I don't mean to sound like a know all, just some suggestions, anyway good luck I really hope it works out.

Posted by: Staffy Feb 15 2010, 09:32 AM

QUOTE (sted @ Feb 14 2010, 01:20 PM) *
I for one will not shed any tears over the death of the music "industry",you will reap what you sow and it deserves to die in my opinion for the way it has turned the gift to humanity that is music into a commodity to be brokered to the people who create it. Music will never die, it will evolve and it will thrive, it will find a way, it will be a darwinian process but unfortunately we are at the point now where it has to happen.
I know this post will win me few friends but I am honest in my beleif that real music will find its way and i will support those people with my hard earned cash forever, that I promise, but I will not sympathise with an industry that has only ever exploited people for its own ends.


I'm still Your friend Sted! smile.gif You say pretty much what I also think. The record industry stinks, and to cite Clapton he says: "95% of the music in the old days were junk, and so it is nowadays too". Why? Because people eats what's on the table. If they could have steaks everyday instead of McDonalds, they would. But as long as the big record companys are feeding us with garbage, there will be market for it. I recently read the biography of Lemmy in Motorhead, and he has been working with a lot of of record lables since the sixties, he's really upset with all of them for not listening to the artists and acting in their interests. So the sooner these dinosaurs go down the drain- the better!!


QUOTE (stratman79 @ Feb 15 2010, 12:57 AM) *
Guthrie didn't get any breaks until he was in his 40, and now he is playing for Dizzy Rascal and (not only doing his own stuff)

I don't think Guthrie got paid to take a year off to make his album


You say something very interesting here. Quality & style never goes together with commercial success. (with a few exceptions)
Players like Guthrie will never have commercial success in the same way as Madonna, since their music doesn't applies to the masses - just a few people that are interested in the art of guitar playing. Based on that thinking there is some ways to go:

1) Learn to play like everybody else - and You can earn a living as a top session player / play in cover bands.
2) Write some good songs in the easy listening genre - and You can live by the royalties paid.
3) Go to school and study economics - the stock market brings a lot of more money than trying to be a musician, You can even be Your own record label owner and sit on the end of the table where the money goes.....

And maybe the most important thing: You can try to play Your own music - BUT - be prepared to have less money than everybody else, struggling to get gigs, put a lot of effort to market Yourself and have a messy life - in return You will probably be HAPPY, since music are what we love!!! biggrin.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: AdamB Feb 16 2010, 09:54 AM

To be honest, I think it's only a natural thing for people to download illegally. I'm not saying it's good, because it definantly isn't. I work in the games industry, so people downloading illegally are effectivly stealing money from my pockets and making my life a lot harder, so it doesn't make me happy. However, I must admit when I was younger I downloaded music and games. Although in retrospect, I didn't actually have any money to pay for them if I wanted to get them legally.

I guess that the only compromise that will work for everyone is that if you CAN afford it, you should buy it. I guess if I made an album and released it, I wouldn't mind people downloading it for free provided that it's the only way they can get it. If they absolutely do not have 5 quid to give me for it, because they're a child or because they are very, very poor or something, then it'd be OK. But otherwise, gimme gimme gimme!

Posted by: Dexxter Feb 16 2010, 11:49 AM

I certainly don't think that this is the end of music! I know lots of great new bands with awesome guitar players. And guess what, I hadn't found out about them and hadn't even been able to buy their stuff without the internet. One example is Gama Bomb. They released their latest album online for free and advertised about it. So I downloaded it. And now I'm sitting here, with a bought CD in my hand's and a t-shirt that came with it in a pack. I even bought there former album too, and a t-shirt with that too. Whenever I release an album of my own or with my band, this will totally be the way to go for me.

Check out this post from the frontman of Gama Bomb. I think he has some very cool things to say about the subject. Note that this is a year and a half before they released an album for free.
http://headbangersblog.mtv.com/2008/12/04/guest-blog-gamma-bomb-frontman-philly-byrne-says-im-a-filthy-swindling-downloader/

Posted by: Todd Simpson Aug 31 2011, 07:54 AM

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Dec 8 2009, 11:18 PM) *
My friend and an awesome neoclassical shredder Borislav Mitic has recently signed for Lion Music which is the metal label from Finland that also released my album.

Just before he released his new record he posted a very seirous story about "The Murder of Music" on the Lion Music's website. Some of other Lion Music artists (including me) also gave their input on this subject.

http://www.lionmusic.com/murderofmusic.html

I would be interested to see comments on Borislav's text from GMC community.


I know this is an older post, but it's still a VERY important and VERY sensitive topic. I"ve been working as "Consultant" with artists and various intelectual properties to try to help them make the transition from the old biz model (selling value added 5 inch plastic discs) to the new model (struggling like crazy to make any money at all)

Here is my basic pitch/plan in a nutshell, and of course, free smile.gif

The Music Biz as we knew it is dead, long live the Music Biz! (King is dead/long live the king, the old passes away but the structure remains) The good news is the murder of the old system represents massive change and change is opportunity. As a musician/instructor and have had to really struggle to find new revenue streams given the death of physical media. I'm not going to lie. It's tough. But I wanted to reach out to you guys and offer some of the solutions that have helped me and that I've used to help others. As you guys know, I work as a consultant on a show called indieatl.com which recently got picked up by comcast for distribution. This took nearly four years though and we learned a LOT along the way.

1.)Social Media (Ad Revenue, awareness)

-By becoming a "YoutubePartner" you can share in advert revenue. I'm a youtube partner with my youtube channel
www.youtube.com/techniqueswithtodd which has 3600 subscribers, more than 1.5 Million video views) Not bad considering I"m not exactly a household name smile.gif Getting to be a partner does take some time and proven traffic. But it's doable.

-Facebook/twitter/ReverbNation/LastFM - It's impossible to conduct commerce without being knee deep in social media these days. You guys really need a presence on every social media outlet. And to avoid going crazy trying to post to them all, using hootsuite.com is a must to post to all of them at once. No revenue here, but great outlet for promo/raising awareness of new acts/releases etc.

2.)FREEMIUM - The new model is Freemium. In other words, 80 percent of your audience simply won't pay for anything. Fine. Give them the free stuff. The other 20 percent will support your entire biz. These folks will pay "The Extra" for the five disc DVD limited Edition set with signed Silk Hoodie and branded flipflops or what not. So instead of charging 100 people 10 Euro for a CD, you charge 20 People 50 Euro for the "limited Edition Set with USB thumb drive containing exclusive tracks" and give the mp3 version to the other 80.

In addition to these tactics, the artists can generate revenue outside unit sales. For example, teaching guitar lessons on the web, on sites like this one, in person, in groups, etc. Also, giving seminars, events, etc. Even signings, talks, etc. Pressing the flesh and sharing skills can bring in cash and promote the artist at the same time smile.gif

In short, it's tough. I'm not going to sugar coat it. But fighting change is pointless. Embrace it. smile.gif And oh yeah, PRACTICE!


Todd

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Aug 31 2011, 03:21 PM

Great post Todd, very inspiring smile.gif

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