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Posted by: eddiecat Sep 25 2007, 02:59 PM

Good morning, Muris.
Could you please explain theoretically what the dots on the fretboard represent?
I'm sure that you don't even think of them,
but could you try to explain to me how they've been useful
to you during your guitar studies?
Besides root notes, how can they be used as "signposts"?
The 12th fret is already very useful to me,
since it indicates where the fretboard "repeats" itself,
but what about the others?
In the thread "Tricks to memorize the fretboard", Tony told me that they can be considered
as the minor 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th of the scales going down the fretboard (E, A, D, G, B, I suppose).
Do you mind telling us your experience with dots?
I thought this topic deserved a little discussion.
Hope you had a great B-Day...
Thank you! Eddie

Posted by: muris Sep 25 2007, 08:29 PM

No prob Eddie.

Lets try this way,imagine guitar without dots??
Hell on the earth.
Dots usually mark notes without sharp or flat,with few exceptions like notes F#,G#,C# and Bb.
Yes,we can use them to find root note or any other degree of the scale but only after we memorize
notes on every single string.
From 12th fret is all the same,so we need to nail first 12 frets.
Like everything else,this requires lots of practice.
As I did practice a lot and nailed those frets,I don't need to look at the fretboard if I'm playing
all over it without jumping,like connecting boxes etc.
But if I wanna do JUMP,per example from 2nd fret to somewhere around 15th or 17th,
without dots I'll probably miss first note.
Practicing scales and watching the notes you're playing on specific dots will help you
to memorize fretboard and places where dots are.
After that you just KNOW that G# on B string is on 9th fret,where the dot is.
How to find A on same string?Easy,just one fret above.
Or how to find note F on A string?Easy,cause E and F# are on the 7th and 9th frets where dots are,
so just hit in between and you have F note.
Hope I cleared it a bit.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 25 2007, 08:32 PM

I would say there is no deep and inner meaning to the dots for me, but they need to be there just as Muris says. If I play a riff I am subconsciously always orienting myself to the dots in the different positions I play so I can jump around and come back to where I was before.

Posted by: muris Sep 25 2007, 08:35 PM

Andrew has the point,dots mostly help to orientate ourself.
And how could we be orientated if we haven't memorized fretboard still?

Posted by: Victafor Sep 25 2007, 08:38 PM

since i am a beginner, sometimes the dots help me to find my place if i mess up. and like i think muris was getting at, they help me to see which notes are where because i am more of a visual learner

Posted by: muris Sep 25 2007, 08:43 PM

Of course,dots are for visual aspect only.
As I'm wearing glasses,almost no use for me.

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 25 2007, 08:43 PM

Great, Muris! Thanks a lot.
Very helpful. Since I'm still working hard on muscle memory
trying to learn all the boxes, I'm not going to worry yet
about all the notes in the different scales.
For the time being I'll just work on root note patterns
and I'll try to memorize only the notes on the dots! (for now)
That is surely one thing I'll add to my daily routine.
Feels like if I learn those at least,
it will be like looking at a puzzle with some pieces missing,
but enough pieces to guess what the picture is.
Thank you once again.
Eddie

Posted by: muris Sep 25 2007, 08:48 PM

You're welcome Eddie,have a great time while learning it!

Posted by: eddiecat Sep 25 2007, 08:54 PM

I will!
Oddly enough I love practicing scales and boxes!!!
I know they're not very popular, but I love them...
Hopefully in about, let's say, 6-8 months
I'll be able to start learning the major modes...
Take care, Muris.

P.S.: I'll get back to you for suggestions
sooner than you think!

Posted by: muris Sep 25 2007, 08:59 PM

You see,practicing scales and boxes is almost most important thing.
Cause everything else you play,tune,solo etc is based on some scale and box/boxes.
So you're doing right job,popular or not!

Posted by: Robin Sep 25 2007, 09:15 PM

I dont think about them much, but they are helpful becuase I instantly know where 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th etc. fret are.

Posted by: Vinod Sep 25 2007, 09:26 PM

Yes they are visual aids.May i add something on this topic?
Do you ever think why guitar strings are EBGDAE unless in special cases?
Because it is the most efficient way.
any other string instrument doesn't have a logic than guitar.
In my opinion It is the most versatile instrument in music world.It can be used in any genre of music.Metal,rock ,Blues Classical.Flamenco etc..
The unique feature of the guitar is that there is an odd in B string.It should have been C note.
Dots come to play with note recognision.Any note in the guitar has its unique relationship with dots which is identified by our unconcious mind.

Posted by: Random Guy Oct 27 2007, 07:32 AM

Hey guys, I'm a guitar beginner but played piano when I was little so I know some musical theory. My question is that in the lesson on power chords you guys have the pattern for the E minor scale. My problem is that this scale on the guitar according to the dots does not sound like a minor scale does on the piano. Specifically, the first note on the third string from the top (I think it's the B string, 12th fret) sounds a semitone off. I can think of three reasons why this is the case, please tell me which one is right and why. Choices are:

a) There is a special reason particular to the guitar
I'm crazy
c) The dots are wrong

Hoping for an answer soon,

Random_guy

Posted by: muris Oct 27 2007, 07:56 AM

Dots are showing us some common frets like 3rd,5th,7th 12th etc.
And notes of scale aren't always on doted fret,depends of scale and string you use as well.
Give me some example and will try to explain it better.

Posted by: Random Guy Oct 27 2007, 08:10 AM

Well the E minor scale (E aeolian) looks like this in the diagram:

e| 12 14 15
b| 12 13 15
g| 11 12 14
d| 12 14
a| 12 14 15
e| 12 14 15

if I play those fret starting at the bottom E on the 12th fret, it sounds right until I get to the twelfth fret on the D string. To sound like a minor scale on the piano I would play 13 14 on the d string. Why is it different here. In the diagram (see http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/beginner-guitar/power-chords.htm for what I am looking at, it's the last diagram on the page before the forum posts) the dots are supposed to correspond to the notes on the scale, yet the scale does not sound like a regular minor scale to my ear. The same problem repeats as you continue to ascend but I can't figure out how to make it sound "right". Why does this sound different than when I would play a minor scale on the piano?

Oh, and it also looks like we are talking about different dots. I mean the ones in diagrams, not the ones on the fretboard. I get that those are just for reference. Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong thread. I would have just posted right on the lesson thread if I could have figured out how! Thanks for your help in advance!

Posted by: barabbas Oct 27 2007, 08:12 AM

OK. Can anyone suggest a method of memorizing the fretboard?
I've been playing by ear for 40 years, but I know the notes on a scale and the differential of steps (whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half, etc.) But there's got to be some "tricks" to memorizing the notes by position...

Posted by: leedbreak Oct 27 2007, 08:19 AM

Make sure your guitar is correctly tuned? Off a tad and it will sound way off. Someone may have said that above



also intonation could toss the sound out a bit too

Posted by: muris Oct 27 2007, 08:25 AM

I have a trouble to see relation between piano and frets on guitar

Any how,the diagram you provided shows right frets for E minor scale,no doubt about it.

If your guitar is tunes right than 12 fret on D string is note D and 14 fret is note E.
13 and 14 will give us D# and E which is ok for E harmonic minor scale.

Posted by: leedbreak Oct 27 2007, 08:26 AM

I still use this as a quick way to remember while jamming


--------------------
-----------10-------
---------------------
-------7------------
--------------------
---5----------------

------------5--------
------------------
---------------------
-------7------------
--------------------
---5----------------


Helps once you know the notes for the 6th string then you know a lot more

Posted by: PlayAllDay Oct 27 2007, 08:34 AM

E Aeolian is also referred to as the Natural Minor scale. It has exactly the same key signature as its relative major.
On piano students are first taught the Harmonic minor scale, which has a raised leading note(7th note of the scale) as you will encounter that scale in the piano repertoire more often.

So the scale you learn on the piano and the E Aeolian are not quite the same though they both fall into the category of 'minor' scales. You play a D in the Aeolian and D# in the Harmonic.
So if you exchange the 12 fret for the 13th fret you should hear the sound you are looking for and you will know another scale too! ( oh and swap 15 for 16 on the Bstring- or shift that note entirely to 11fret on the E string)
HTH

Posted by: tonymiro Oct 27 2007, 08:38 AM

It's a bit off topic Eddie but once you've got used to a particular guitar you get to 'know it' really well. What I mean, sort of, is that I play in my office with the light off (pc monitor on providing all the 'light') and I know what fret I'm at not just from the note but how the neck feels...

Having said that the dots orientate you - BUT - I have a lot of friends who play fret less bass with no markers (including none on the side of the neck) WHO know where they are by learning to hear relative pitch.

Cheers,

Tony

Edit - lots of spelling mistakes

Posted by: muris Oct 27 2007, 08:39 AM

Glory to relative pitch!!!
And to dots

Posted by: Random Guy Oct 27 2007, 08:41 AM

AHA! Thank you Mr. PlayAllDay, whoever you are, that is my problem. It all makes sense now.

Posted by: muris Oct 27 2007, 08:42 AM

Wait a sec,I said all that about D # before!!!

No thanks to me???

Posted by: muris Oct 27 2007, 08:55 AM

Ahh,was joking guys,c'mon?!?!?

Posted by: tonymiro Oct 27 2007, 09:00 AM

You were



(Sorry Muris - couldn't resist)

Posted by: PlayAllDay Oct 27 2007, 09:03 AM

You're welcome Random Guy - and err... I'm a random girl



I think you are thanked quite often enough already Muris
I am enjoying my moment in the thanking sun!!

Posted by: tonymiro Oct 27 2007, 09:12 AM

Now when's it my turn then for some sun?

Form an orderly queue behind me people...

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: eddiecat Oct 30 2007, 09:57 PM

Ok, Tony, here we go: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU....
I'm starting my third month of guitar studying and I don't think I could have improved as much as I have (hopefully) anywhere else than here at GMC. A huge thank you to YOU (especially for your recording classes), Andrew and, of course, to my maestro Muris.
Is this sun warm enough?
To me dots are simply starting to become what root notes are: Signposts. As simple as that.
Going back to my woodshedding...
Cheers, Eddie

Posted by: tonymiro Oct 30 2007, 10:48 PM

Thanks Eddie - appreciated .

Have to say that I wish I had spent my first few months even partly as dedicated as you've been. Sure you're going to be a great guitar player .

Cheers,
Tony

ps - helps to have a great mentor like Muris though

Posted by: mattacuk Oct 30 2007, 11:18 PM

Check this out, after six months of fretboard/pitch training i have a pretty cool map in my head.

E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E
B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G
D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D
A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A
E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E

I have the same mental map in Flats, and i can also tell you which octave a series of pitches belong too!
The big plus is i can tell you the pitch without counting up from the nut but instinctively know it !!

Posted by: MickeM Oct 30 2007, 11:53 PM

The dots are to mark the harmonic points.
The octave is marked (f ex with two dots) and the other points (that sound harmonic octaves) at 3,5,7 and 9. I'm positive it can be explained with wave theory somehow... but not by me.

EDIT: perhaps it was explained already? i didn't read all the replies...