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Phil66
Sep 17 2020, 02:42 PM
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Thanks Gab,

I had a quick try playing some rhythm but as I said my strumming isn't very good, that's why I posted Mary N, my strumming is a rusty robot in comparison.

The only reason I went for the Achey thing was because that's how it entered my head. Sometimes sad lyrics can be good in a bouncy tune I think. I never realised how sad Mad World by Tears For Fears is, especially the chorus, until I heard a mournful cover.

I can't sing for toffee but this is kinda how the rhythm of the chorus goes in my head, I was keeping it low so my wife couldn't hear laugh.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/chorus-vox/s-HWDMsel8wFr (It's a private link so won't embed wink.gif )

And here are some ideas with slight changes but on the guitar. That last line needs changing but I really want to leave the meaning of the "day comes you gonna have to cry", it needs fewer syllables but I'm struggling, it'll come eventually.

UPDATE 18/09/2020:
I have just been singing the chorus to myself and the last line fits when tapping my foot, it has the same amount of syllables as line 1 so it should fit, it could be a bit of rec button syndrome causing me to go awry, especially with the actual "singing".

Days just disappear and turn into a year (11 syllables)
Suddenly it’s time to say goodbye, (9 syllables)
Enjoy each other and the time you have now (11 syllables)
Till the day comes when you’re gonna have to cry (11 syllables)

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/chorus-axe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZvPSpLxCg


https://youtu.be/4N3N1MlvVc4


I sent the link to this thread to Todd, he likes the lyrics and said he thinks a metal track with growing vocal would be good so now we have four possibilities, Achey, Bluesy, doom metal and Radiohead laugh.gif

I'm not trying to be sad on purpose buddy, it's just how it's coming out.

Cheers

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Sep 18 2020, 08:21 AM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 18 2020, 02:54 PM
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Great stuff Phil!! Based on your lyrics and vox track, I've created this melody and chords over the drums. Let me know what you think.

Attached File  Phil_melody___chords_for_Chorus.mp3 ( 423.04K ) Number of downloads: 10


smile.gif

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Phil66
Sep 18 2020, 08:14 PM
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Oh Gab, that's brilliant thank you, I was trying to come up with some rhythm chords on guitar but it was a struggle for me.

I'm getting a bit out of my depth now as to where to take it, should I try some bass guitar over it? Would we still have rhythm guitars over it? I think there could be room for a solo somewhere and some more verses maybe.

The orcehstral/synth backing goes really well for the mood of the lyrics.

I have a very busy weekend but I'll keep thinking, I need to fine tune the chorus but only slightly, also I'll "sing" the verse too probably Sunday evening.

This process is very enjoyable, thanks for giving me the push Gab, I just wish I had the experience and knowledge to develop it more myself. I guess the more I do of this kind of things the more the musical side will develop.

Thank you so much Gab smile.gif

Cheers

Stay safe

Phil

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 19 2020, 12:41 AM
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Hi Phil! Nice to know that you are enjoying the process! We can just enjoy it and see what happens. Maybe after some tunes done in this way, you'll start to be able to work on your ideas by your own.

The next steps can be:

- Playing bass for this.
- Playing some guitar for this.
- Recording a vocal version of your verse idea.

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Phil66
Sep 20 2020, 09:06 PM
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Hello Gab,

I've spent about ten hours driving this weekend and a lot of it was spent listening to music, really listening, not to the big picture of each track but to how the backing works with the vocal. I used various radio stations to get a good variety. I found that a lot of the backings don't seem to identify with the melody of the singing completely, I mean the timing is there and the singer is following the chords (I think) but it's not in such a way that you'd identify the rhythm to match the lyric unless you'd heard the complete thing before. I hope that makes sense. Kind of like when you hear a busker playing a tune, you don't always recognise it until they start singing, obviously Wonderwall is very identifiable in its own right as a rhythm.

Take Wonderwall for example.
https://youtu.be/bx1Bh8ZvH84


And Rolling In The Deep
https://youtu.be/rYEDA3JcQqw


I also noticed that a lot of songs have the melody/riff, match the vocal, many Sabbath songs are like this, here is an example
https://youtu.be/5sUxonBFD6o


This is where I'm struggling, I kind of keep wanting to play chords with the same delivery I "sing" the lines but it won't work, I couldn't tell what key or multitude of keys I'm "singing" in so I can't choose chords but I'm thinking some classic open chords like A D and E (don't know if any should be major or minor).

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/verse-guitar


And here is a private link so only people on here will hear it wink.gif of me "singing" two verses and a chorus. I didn't put the click track on as it confuses me rolleyes.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/verse-chor...x/s-8s9DHyva8co

Cheers

Phil

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 20 2020, 10:46 PM
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Nice ideas! I'll open the song project tomorrow and try to see how this verse connects with the chorus idea that I've recorded. Could you check if the chords that you played for the verse go well with the chorus?

Those are really nice song references. Once we have the verse and chorus, we can work on a structure for the song. That's when we need to decide details about introduction, bridges and maybe solo? biggrin.gif

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Phil66
Sep 20 2020, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 20 2020, 10:46 PM) *
Nice ideas! I'll open the song project tomorrow and try to see how this verse connects with the chorus idea that I've recorded. Could you check if the chords that you played for the verse go well with the chorus?

Those are really nice song references. Once we have the verse and chorus, we can work on a structure for the song. That's when we need to decide details about introduction, bridges and maybe solo? biggrin.gif


Thanks Gab,

When you say "Could you check if the chords that you played for the verse go well with the chorus?" do you mean rhythmically? I was thinking of the verse for those chords. I hadn't thought about the chorus but while typing this I had an idea for the chorus, maybe it's too cheesy but how about just the drums and clapping then bring the rhythm section back in.

I think I need to work on another couple of verses wink.gif

Cheers
Phil

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Sep 21 2020, 01:25 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 21 2020, 02:17 PM
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Hi Phil!

My question was more related to harmony. I wonder if the chords that you provided for the verse connect with the chords that I recorded for the chorus.

For example, here I continued the idea. We have the chorus first, and then, I recorded a possible verse based on your melody. However I recorded a simpler melody there, with less notes.

I'm not sure if these parts work well as "chorus" and "verse" but at least we have some ideas on progress. What are you thoughts? biggrin.gif

Attached File  Phil_melody___chords._Chorus___Verse.mp3 ( 1.19MB ) Number of downloads: 8

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Phil66
Sep 22 2020, 07:55 AM
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Hello Gab,

I'm finding it all a little daunting to be honest mate huh.gif Especially as it's not a straight forward rhythm guitar, bass and drums backing. I know it's just a matter of working on it but I feel a little bit thrown in the deep end. It's just a complete lack of experience creating a full song, I guess most start out in their bedroom with a guitar and three chords for their first few songs, then find a mate with a bass and then the elusive drummer and build over a period of months/years into full song creation with synths and orchestral things in the mix etc

Regarding the verse and chorus working in harmony, would these chords work better? As you know, I struggle with things like this, my ear never seems to know what works and what doesn't, it all seems to work to me, even the "bad" notes rolleyes.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/new-verse-guitar

P.S Check your PM wink.gif

Cheers

Phil

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Sep 22 2020, 07:59 AM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 22 2020, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Sep 22 2020, 03:55 AM) *
Hello Gab,

I'm finding it all a little daunting to be honest mate huh.gif Especially as it's not a straight forward rhythm guitar, bass and drums backing. I know it's just a matter of working on it but I feel a little bit thrown in the deep end. It's just a complete lack of experience creating a full song, I guess most start out in their bedroom with a guitar and three chords for their first few songs, then find a mate with a bass and then the elusive drummer and build over a period of months/years into full song creation with synths and orchestral things in the mix etc


Hi Phil! I didn't get exactly what you mean. Do you refer to the lack of guitars and bass? (the arrangement) or the groove, tempo and progressions?



QUOTE (Phil66 @ Sep 22 2020, 03:55 AM) *
Regarding the verse and chorus working in harmony, would these chords work better? As you know, I struggle with things like this, my ear never seems to know what works and what doesn't, it all seems to work to me, even the "bad" notes rolleyes.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/new-verse-guitar

P.S Check your PM wink.gif

Cheers

Phil



What about trying by your own? Play the verse and connect it with the chorus and share a soundcloud file playing the whole thing. smile.gif

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Phil66
Sep 23 2020, 09:33 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 22 2020, 04:26 PM) *
Hi Phil! I didn't get exactly what you mean. Do you refer to the lack of guitars and bass? (the arrangement) or the groove, tempo and progressions?


Hello Gab,

I guess I just feel a little swamped, if we'd come up with a drum groove and then worked on some rhythm guitars, then added bass I might have been a little more comfortable. I love the synth part but I can't hear the chords, my ear still isn't all that good.

I also struggle because in my head, everything has to match the rhythm of the singing which I know isn't correct but I struggle to come up with a rhythm that doesn't match the singing. The Taj Farrant single is a classic example of what I struggle with. The backing doesn't match the singing (in my head anyway) rhythmically. Not that it's wrong but I seem to work better when it does match, like that Suzi Quattro video a few posts back.

https://youtu.be/NsG_1GF79DI



QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 22 2020, 04:26 PM) *
What about trying by your own? Play the verse and connect it with the chorus and share a soundcloud file playing the whole thing. smile.gif


I had to use my Korg TM50 to try and capture the most prevalent notes in the parts you did and I came up with this below. I guess I need to know the key/keys the parts are in so that I can investigate which chords to use because my ear doesn't tell me. I guess it's these hard tasks that make one grow, so long as one doesn't get too demoralised wink.gif

Anyway, here is a load of rubbish but maybe something can develop from it.

Panned so that you can isolate:
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/chorus-verse-panned

Central:
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/chorus-verse-central

Cheers

Phil


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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 23 2020, 02:49 PM
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Oh I see Phil! The demos that I'm sending are really raw ideas that then the composer/arrangement (in this case us) work. The chorus that I've recorded was specifically arranging based on your ideas, but it off course needs bass, guitars, and real vocals instead of a piano.

I usually prefer to define the verse and chorus before I start arranging the parts.

Here I took the chorus with synth version and arranged it with real guitars, bass, and vocals.

So this idea: HERE

based on these required tasks: HERE.

using these lyrics:
Days just disappear and turn into a year (11 syllables)
Suddenly it’s time to say goodbye, (9 syllables)
Enjoy each other and the time you have now (11 syllables)
Till the day comes when you’re gonna have to cry (11 syllables)

and based on our reference track: https://youtu.be/byQIPdHMpjc

became this: Attached File  Phil_melody___chords._Vchorus.mp3 ( 469.5K ) Number of downloads: 8




Does it make sense?

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Phil66
Sep 23 2020, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 23 2020, 02:49 PM) *
Does it make sense?


Thanks Gab,

Reading that wasn't making much sense to my pea brain until I listened to that last MP3, now it makes more sense and I understand how it works a little bit now. I haven't heard that before unless I've missed it somewhere along the line unsure.gif The last line of the chorus sounds a little odd for some reason but i know it isn't a finished thing.

Hearing that MP3 has excited my senses again but I don't know where to go next.

Should I try again with the verse section with my guitar and a bass sound from my guitar? Can you tell me the key please?

Thanks

Phil

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Sep 24 2020, 12:10 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 24 2020, 02:09 PM
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Hi Phil!

Cool! Please have in mind that we are just "playing (like a game)" here. This is not a conventional composition course (we can go for it if you want). This is more like the creativity workouts that we did in the past. We are building a tune together, and the main goal here is to inspire you and show how the process can be. The final product isn't important at all here, and we can delete what we have and start again..

The chords that I've used are C minor - F major. The key is C minor, but the use of F major instead of minor is a slight variation that makes us think in a parallels mode. This can be a bit advanced, but don't worry, we'll get into these concepts.

Attached File  Phil_tune_with_vocal_melody______Salida___Stereo_Out.mp3 ( 469.5K ) Number of downloads: 5


Attached File  Phil_tune_only_guitar______Salida___Stereo_Out.mp3 ( 469.5K ) Number of downloads: 5


Attached File  Phil_tune_no_vocals______Salida___Stereo_Out.mp3 ( 469.5K ) Number of downloads: 5


Attached File  Phil_tune_no_guitars______Salida___Stereo_Out.mp3 ( 469.5K ) Number of downloads: 5



Here I've prepared 4 tracks for you. One includes all instruments and vocal melody as reference (no lyrics). The second one is the backing without vocals. The third track is just drums, bass and synth so you can play along and practice your rhythm. The final track is just my guitar so you can hear how I strum the chords. Let me know if you need me to transcribe the guitar part or a short video showing how to play it.


Also, let me know if you have an idea of what chords possibilities you have to build other parts around these two chords.

Cheers!

Gab.-

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Phil66
Sep 24 2020, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 24 2020, 02:09 PM) *
Also, let me know if you have an idea of what chords possibilities you have to build other parts around these two chords.

Cheers!

Gab.-


Thanks for your help Gab,

I didn't really understand that last comment, sorry if I appear stupid huh.gif

Regarding your other comments, maybe I was taking it too seriously and thinking we were building a song.

I'll work on some ideas as you suggested, I love how you've used my two favourite chords, F and C (NOT laugh.gif )

Cheers

Phil

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 24 2020, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Sep 24 2020, 10:34 AM) *
Thanks for your help Gab,

I didn't really understand that last comment, sorry if I appear stupid huh.gif



I'm asking if you know details about the tonalities and harmonics around these two chords, so you can experiment with progressions for the verse and chorus.



QUOTE (Phil66 @ Sep 24 2020, 10:34 AM) *
Regarding your other comments, maybe I was taking it too seriously and thinking we were building a song.


Yeah! We are building a song! but we are also having fun and learning a bit!




QUOTE (Phil66 @ Sep 24 2020, 10:34 AM) *
I'll work on some ideas as you suggested, I love how you've used my two favorite chords, F and C (NOT laugh.gif )



Great!!

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Phil66
Sep 24 2020, 08:56 PM
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Hello Gab,

Thanks, answers inserted wink.gif

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 24 2020, 05:22 PM) *
I'm asking if you know details about the tonalities and harmonics around these two chords, so you can experiment with progressions for the verse and chorus.

Unfortunately I don't I guess I need to investigate but I don't even know what to enter into Google rolleyes.gif

Yeah! We are building a song! but we are also having fun and learning a bit!

That's the best way wink.gif

Great!!

I love the sound of those two chords but I hate playing them as open chords laugh.gif


Update:

I didn't have much time tonight and I've been wanting to get my teeth into the current collab so I've put a little take in the thread, just to backing #1

Cheers

Phil

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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 27 2020, 04:07 PM
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Hi Phil!

Let's talk about this...


"Unfortunately I don't I guess I need to investigate but I don't even know what to enter into Google"


C minor - F major


This is a great excuse to get into "tonalities". What do you know about them?

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Phil66
Sep 27 2020, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 27 2020, 04:07 PM) *
Hi Phil!

Let's talk about this...


"Unfortunately I don't I guess I need to investigate but I don't even know what to enter into Google"


C minor - F major


This is a great excuse to get into "tonalities". What do you know about them?


Hello Gab,

Excuse my ignorance but I know nothing about tonalities, I guess I've never delved into that kind of thing because I've been told from an early age, which also made me convince myself that I'm tone deaf or don't have a "musical bone in my body" which I guess repressed my musical development and experimentation, it's that old fear of failure with ridicule as a consequence. I'm a lot better now, a couple of years ago I would never have recorded myself trying to sing and put it on here so there is some advancement wink.gif

I'll Google that now.

Cheers

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Sep 27 2020, 05:18 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Sep 27 2020, 06:14 PM
Instructor
Posts: 33.762
Joined: 3-March 07
From: Argentina
I'm sorry to hear that mate! That's very negative thinking. Nice to know that your could forget it.

The first thing that you need to know is what0s the progression key. In other words, you need to know the key of these progression:

C minor - F major

Info about it: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=3160

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