Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi May 1 2013, 10:14 PM

Hi guys! I have been discussing with a friend who is Electronic Engineer about Tube amps and Solid State Amps. His point of view is that Tube Amps are something obsolete from the past and that newer technologies are better...

As I have never tried a top line Solid State Guitar Amp, I was wondering which you think are are the best ones for rock & metal.

I know that Tech21 is doing some of these.

Posted by: SpaseMoonkey May 1 2013, 11:33 PM

I can only think of a few amps that are SS.

Oldies:
Randall Warhead - Dimebag
Line 6 Vetta

Newer:
AMT Stonehead

Posted by: Socky42 May 1 2013, 11:37 PM

The Peavey Vypyr is definitely up there with the best

Posted by: Todd Simpson May 2 2013, 01:06 AM

"Obosolete" is a strong word. People can develop a relationship with an Amp just as they do with a guitar. Some folks just prefer tube amps. God bless em

I don't think it's a matter of "Better" or "Worse" in this case. Just like I don't think those words work well for talking about guitars or anything that comes down to taste.

I really like SS amps personally because the gain is very linear. All I mean is that the high strings sound distorted as well as the low strings. Tube amps respond to how they are pushed so at a given setting power chords might sound great, but light lead work my sound thin.

So again, (beating a dead horse) it really does all come down to the player and whats being played.

Personally I no longer own a big pricey tube amp. In fact my live rig is a GSP1101 with generic SS power amp. I"m a big fan of modeling in general so the GSP works well for me And the pedal board is very handy. Once big board. But just because I'm in to that doesn't mean anything. Someone else might want a big tube stack with half a dozen individual pedals on a board.

In short, folks, buy and use whatever you are drawn to. It will change over time just as you playing will change.

Todd

Posted by: klasaine May 2 2013, 04:20 AM

There's a company called Pritchard. They make some really high end SS amps. Expensive too.
http://www.pritchardamps.com/pritchardamps.cfm

As Todd says, "obsolete - ?" ... hardly.
SS and tube characteristics are very different and both work very we'll in different applications.
Tell your buddy to design an SS amp that really does react exactly like a 1968 50 watt Marshall Plexi and he'll be rich beyond his dreams. Seriously, there's a lot of us waiting to not have haul that crap around anymore

Posted by: maharzan May 2 2013, 06:59 AM

I think the time has come that digital amps are very close or even better than analog ones. The tube is definitely something that sounds awesome but digital processors are equally competing nowadays. I use the Axe FX II and many have moved from tubes to this amp. All those people can't be wrong. There is equal love for other digital processors that have come out. I am sure within next 5 years so so, digital technology will evolve to be much better.

Posted by: Mudbone May 2 2013, 07:39 AM

This is a replica of the legendary Trainwreck Solid State amp.



And of course, how could I not mention this one:



I have this little Crate practice amp that sounds like wet farts when played through its tiny little speaker. But when I plugg it into a 412, it sounds like a beast! Its got insane amounts of gain. Of course, its no high dollar amp, but it does the job

Posted by: klasaine May 2 2013, 07:44 AM

Here's an actual Ken Fisher 'Trainwreck' amp.



Sound the same?

Posted by: Darius Wave May 2 2013, 09:02 AM

My favourite solid state amps are Randall + Hughes & Kettner. Both of those producents bring pretty descent sound for the price and solid state has some profits comparing the the tube amps:

1. They stay clean even withsome huge input boost (great for jazz) or just You don't like while You're clean tone get distorted on harder strokes

2. Much lower weight

3. Less sensitive for tour damages

4. Cheaper in explotation


Also some of those amps distortion is pretty tight and very "fast" for speed, heavy playing


I like both for some profits they give but when it comes to the dynamics range and this pleasant compression I love tubes

Posted by: Todd Simpson May 3 2013, 04:06 AM

BTW those are two FINE AMPS! IMHO. I LOVE the old Randall Warhead. I"ve been looking for one for YEARS with the original Dime Bag CRAZY cabinet configuration featuring 15 inch drivers in one cab



And I used to own the VETTA!!!! It was WADS of fun.



Not everyone likes SS amps. Dime Bag loved em. I like em too

Todd

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi May 3 2013, 04:59 AM

Interesting answers. I will share this thread with my friend and then I'll let you know his thoughts. I also think that digital world is getting closer to what we dreamed... having everything in one device with top quality. I couldn't try an Axe yet, but I would love to do it...

Posted by: ConnorGilks May 3 2013, 09:12 AM

I highly disagree when it comes to tube amps being obsolete, and that's coming from an AxeFX II owner. As much as I love tube amps, and digital processors, solid states amps can be just as rad. I looooove a lot of Fender's cheap solid state amps, they're surprisingly good amps for jazz and even rock! I plugged my $50 Tele into a $125 solid state Fender 2x12 at school and it was SPOT ON Van Halen tone!! Who would've guessed it, right? I also really like AMT's Stonehead amp. Solid State, but wicked for high gain tones, even modern progressive metal!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btttv0kSWcU

I have an AxeFX II because it does it's thing, but I have a small tube amp too because it has it's own thing as well. Solid states amps are the same way. They're all different, and they are all equally awesome to me!

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi May 3 2013, 02:53 PM

Cool video featuring the AMT amp. I haven't heard this one before. It sounds killer!

Posted by: klasaine May 3 2013, 04:35 PM

Really clean and very high gain tones SS can do very well.
Its the middle ground - low, medium and crunch - that is ( so far) they're weak point.

Posted by: Todd Simpson May 3 2013, 08:35 PM

BINGO The "Mid/low gain" range is where tube amps really shine. Emulating that is quite processor intensive and requires replicating harmonics/overtones with fine detail that is a challenge for some modelling systems. The processors get better and algorithms get better each year, so eventually, I'm sure some SS amp/processor will do a spot on clone of a KLON On mid gain. We are getting close, but you can do it with a tube amp as mentioned for a pretty cheap price, and faking it with math doesn't come cheap yet


Todd

Posted by: klasaine May 3 2013, 09:10 PM

And ... and this is huge for musicians in bands on stage ... with a decent tube amp and few nice analog pedals you can easily TWEAK VERY QUICKLY to get the tone you need for that gig/venue. Most tube amps and analog pedals are by design '1(or 2)-trick ponies' but if that's the trick you need - nothing else really works.

Now, in the studio, with good converters and a good word clock - even a POD 2.0 is still very seviceable. I've had a Line 6 POD since 1999 and I haven't upgraded since the 2.0 upgrade (I just put the new processor in my original POD). I still use it on actual sessions (not just demos) for TV and movies - tons of players do. I've nailed the models that I feel 'work' (for me) and I really have no desire to fk with anything that's working.
Having said that I am thinking about an 11 Rack.

Also, I would love an SS amp that just gave me one GREAT real Marshall Plexi tone and/or Fender BF Deluxe tone (not the recorded, mixed and mastered tone - the actual tone and feel) - that's all. I can do the rest with guitars, a couple pedals and my hands.

I personally think one of the (self imposed) road blocks for SS amp builders is that 'most' of them are trying to do it all. Like, here's the entire history of high-gain amps in one $300.00 small combo. Ummm ... no, not really - sorry.
How about just three: JCM 800, AC 30, BF Deluxe ... and no fx (OK, maybe reverb?) Nail those 3 and you have a winner!
I guarantee that they'd sell MANY of those to actual professionals and that in turn would stimulate the student and amatuer markets.

Posted by: Todd Simpson May 4 2013, 05:41 AM

Very well said. As COSMIN often points out, he can get his tone with a tube head a couple of pedals in just a few minutes. Also, a Nice tube amp has a great warmth and character that modellers are only recently coming up to snuff on IMHO. The KEMPER is a really good compromise it seems in terms of SS VS TUBE in that is sonically recreates the actual tube sound very convincingly. (Although, not enough for some).

The Kemper is the only setup I'm aware of that can pull off a Marshall, AC 30, Twin, with the flick of a switch and do so with grace. The AXE FX is a very close second in terms of mimicking other amps tones now that it can do something similar to the KEMPER. But it really seems to shine on Brutal high gain stuff more than mid gain thump which the Kemper can handle well.

Then again, the Kemper and the AXE FX are both pretty darn expensive units. Counterpoint to that of course, is that nice tube amps ain't cheap either.

The good news is that technology tends to get cheaper and better as we go so Kemper/Axe Fx quality will be well within the Pod range affordability soon enough. But of course, by then the "High End" stuff will be doing God knows what by that time

Todd

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi May 4 2013, 05:21 PM

This is the cool side of this!

Posted by: Darius Wave May 9 2013, 10:35 AM

My solid state Hughess & Kettner Club Reverb 60 finally (And I meant it!) has failed...was broken when we hit some road hole while driving for a gig. Why did I say finally? I have this amp for years...It has been abused sooo many times...Used buy drunk musicinas at jams, all knobs turned to 10, never been in the case, left in some rooms with no heat for a long time and...never failed. It little so when we play small gigs in the small places it's perfect....not too boomy and works fine when the room sound is not descent enough (even top notch amps can't handle some rooms)

1. Not a big deal if someone steal it
2. Don't have to care a lot...
3. Light weight
4. Small size
5. Clear and breaking through the mix middle range


Now after it has crashed on the car trailer the cost of repair is equal to a cost of few cigarettes packs...


I had different amps - tube or solid state and still own a regular halp-stack. Sometimes the 1x12" solid state combo handles things better than this full stack even though...It doesn't win while comparing in the studio or well prepared room.


But it's a simple construction...not kind of linxe 6 "PC in the amp box" one. I could never convince myself to any kind those ams with simulations. I mean...while playing live, with the real band. Has some problems with them while trying on tours and IMHO...love old, simple constructions.

Month ago I had an old Marshall Mosfet 2x12 combo. It was made somewhere in the 80's and still...all parts orignal and after celaning the pots it works like a brand new.

Posted by: Amp360 May 16 2013, 04:47 PM

Best means different things to different people.

If I had to choose the 'most iconic' solid state amp I would choose the Roland JC-120. It pretty much replaced the Fender Twin as the standard combo rental amp for quite a few years and it was the first amp to have the chorus built in. The JC also has a sound all its own that some people really like.

Many solid state amps are made for lower price points but the JC-120 was the first that you saw across a lot of different styles and was widely accepted.

I suppose Polytone could be considered one of the more popular amps for jazz players, but I don't think they're as popular as they once were.

I prefer tubes which are obsolete for a lot of things. Musical amplifiers (tell your friend to look into the audiophile market) are one thing most people feel they do better then solid state.

Posted by: Todd Simpson May 17 2013, 06:22 AM

This is a really good point, thats a GREAT amp. It really shines on CLEAN TONES though, more than high gain craziness. WHich is of course perfectly valid and it's a legend for jazz/Pop/even metal clean chorus sounds.

Todd

Posted by: Slavenko Erazer May 17 2013, 09:26 AM

I don't like solid states.
U can't get decent metal solo sound with those.
Now you even have Randall full tube amp for just around 400 $ i think..

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/randall-diavlo-series-rd50c-50w-1x12-tube-guitar-combo-amp

Posted by: TwistedHeaterWires May 17 2013, 06:43 PM

To the original post. There are some very good solid state amp on the market today. I don't however from playing several feel they have the tone, feel, harmonics or response of a good tube amp. Tube amps obsolete? No way. Your friend doesn't sound like a guitar player. I have several tube amps, now mostly home builds, that I play regularly. I own a ZT Club SS amp and carry it to gigs as a backup.( light weight, loud) It's ok but still lacks the feel and response of a tube amp. I also own a '67 Vox Cambridge Reverb that I use as a bedroom amp at times. Cool amp for what it is but the tube Vox of the same name blows it away.

So in either the modern era or vintage gear I don't believe SS technology has quite gotten to the point to replace tube tone. Modeling is just that and although much improved in recent years, it doesn't have the drive, punch and feel of the real deal.

SS amps excel where tons of power is required. Bass amps, PA systems etc. Give me a 40 tube amp with 2-6L6 power tubes and I'm a very happy guy. A solid state amp is a great tool for the beginner on a budget, as a practice amp and lightweight back up. You just don't see them on the big stages very often and with good reason. The jazz genre may be an exception to this. And so it goes.

Posted by: deeaa May 28 2013, 06:55 AM

Sonically, on record, I don't find tubes are that much better in an amp, I use a plugin modeler quite happily, but I do like the sound of tubes as an easy, organic way of EQ'ing and warming up the signal. For instance, I run all my D/I guitars thru a tube direct box.

Furthermore, when lots of volume is needed, tube amps simply have a far superior signal to noise ratio. When no sound is input, tube amps make no sound of their own (except whatever buzz other gear like pedals may present). SS amps always amplify everything, even if you don't hear it, there's much less 'headroom' when played loud.

Everybody who's played an all tube stack without a lot of pedals for instance knows this - when you stand in front of the amp and experience the impact of a chord hit from silence, the air movement and all - there is no substitute in SS or modeler world for that. SS may move air just the same, but that raw, incredible punch with great SNR can't be copied.

However, once you put five pedals in front of it, all that matters next to nothing.

Also, once you record it, no matter what you use pretty much. Just personal preference.

SS amps shine the greatest in home use when little sound is used - there they beat tube 10-1. NO tube amp exists that can really sound superb at very very low volumes. They may sound good, but you just know turning that knob a little more will make it even better. I've had 2W tube amps that were loud enough to break eardrums at short distances. So it's SS amps at home for me, tube when I play out loud with a band for my own enjoyment only. Likely will not change in near future. If I toured pro, I'd usemy JVM's D/I and the amp for monitoring.

IMO Tech-21 is one of the best, and their el cheapo copies Behringer GM series are excellent sounding as well. They all work great for home 'bedroom' amps especially, and I know a couple of pro acts such as an AC/DC cover band who've toured 10 years using only Tech-21 with great results.

Here's a few of my demos of SS amps:

Techie 21:



The cheap copy of Techie:

Posted by: pdf64 Jun 3 2013, 12:05 AM

I've not a whole lot of knowledge of the current or historical market of silicon device based amps, so I can't offer much to the original post; Session Award developed some good sounding amps and this page has a couple of useful articles regarding the issues http://www.award-session.com/award-session_geartalk.html but they're no longer in production.
Tube amps have a couple of performance characteristics that have sonic impacts that tend to be valued by many musicians;
A/ inherently high output impedance - this reduces efficiency (ie wastes power) but facilitates the amp's power output level tracking the impedance of the speaker. Speaker impedance varies significantly with frequency and the tube amp's high output impedance enables a more balanced power output across the frequency range of interest.
Whereas a standard (silicon device based) amp with very low output impedance will tend to sound muffled in comparison (because it will have more gain / power in the low mids, less in the bass and high mids / treble).
B/ a noticeable degree of dynamic compression, ie output power does not track the input signal level in a closely linear manner; when heavily overdriven, the power level will tend not to increase significantly. The transients effect of the note being picked may even result in a slight pumping effect, which can usefully be employed to create a smooth, 'singing' note envelope.
Also the classic tube amp designs are fairly simple and are in the public domain, so may be copied as desired.
It's possible for silicon device based amps to mimic all the above, and amps that do it really well will get cheaper I'm sure. However, quality costs and the market for high quality (ie expensive) silicon based amps is small currently.
The dynamic compression thing requires the amp to be pushed hard; when used with regular guitar speakers, that results in a high sound pressure level and, as noted above, even low powered tube amps are too loud in the domestic environment to be used to best effect.
However, attenuators can be used between amp and speaker to bring the sound power down. Even better is a guitar speaker of variable efficiency; my Fluxtone speaker is incredible, allowing me to overdrive my AC30 at family friendly sound pressure levels.
I hope the above makes sense and is helpful - Pete

Posted by: Britishampfan Jun 3 2013, 05:38 AM

I would like to offer my experience.

Are tubes obsolete? Yes they are for many applications, there are only a few vacuum tube factories left in the world today most of which survive because of the need for tubes in military applications.

In the 80`s there was a great move to new SS amps and literally I saw stacks of Marshall, Fender, Vox, in the used piles of amps priced next to nothing, Plexi heads $300, nobody wanted the stuff.

Most pros never really left tube amps, but the popularity of tube amps came back because people liked the feel and the sound.

People believe a lot of things some of which is not true.


There is no BEST when it comes to sound, It`s all different, There are things ss amps can do that tubes amp don`t. There are advantages to tube amps over solid state and modeling.

There are many advantages of modeling over both tube and ss amps.

I`ve heard and know great guitar players that have had flawless sound with all the above. Platinum works of musical art have been made with all three singly and in combination.

I was invited once years ago to hear BB King small private affair, I sat right in front of him, He played a solid state lab amp, his sound and playing made my hair feel like it was standing on end, it was super natural, He still rates as one of the top players I`ve ever seen across all lines of music.

I`ve seen a lot of bands, more than the average person or musician that is for sure.


Again I say there is no BEST, the gear is nothing more than a tool, and as a craftsman I have a lot of tools, I know what my tools can and can`t do, and how to use the correct tool for the job at hand, and they are all different.

I`m dealing with all the time, Different rooms, different volumes, different styles, different textures, different visions and colors, and all of this changes everyday because my mood changes, my ideas change.

And trying to deliver a sound for someone else, it may not be the sound that I hear in my head, they want on their song.

I don`t think that tubes, or solid state, or modeling will be disappearing any time soon, but some day the tube factories will be gone that is for sure.

Other new choices will be available, and I`m never selling what I have right now either.

Posted by: Blue Willy Jun 4 2013, 03:05 AM

Roland JC120 is a nice clean amp and very versatile. I have a Laney 65R 2 channel combo with a 12" speaker. I haven't used it very much lately since it seems more metal oriented than blues oriented but friends have told me I sound good through it. I like tubes myself.

Posted by: deeaa Jun 4 2013, 07:50 AM

Tubes will be around in military for quite a while. An emp-creating nuclear bomb can wipe out every single transistor within thousands of miles easy, very hard to protect the electronic equipment from it. Needs like feet of lead.

I have been inside a Russian nuclear submarine and I was amazed there were stacks of, hell walls of old-school ceramic fuses and tube based computers, radars etc. Looked like some steampunk affair. And then I understood...it's impervious to emp pulses. A sub with modern computers would be useless within minutes of nuclear war while those Russian mariners would just laugh at the electro-magnetic pulses. Same with nuclear power stations and all...everything in Russia was apparently built to withstand a nuke attack.

Posted by: SixStringSamurai Jun 4 2013, 08:56 AM

To be honest, I don't count modelling as solid state. Modelling amps are now their own branch of the amp evolution, and they are constantly getting closer and closer to the real thing.

Pure solid state, like Peavey Bandits and JC120s and the like - now that is definitely a dying breed. With the advancements in low wattage amps, and the increasingly accessible prices for tube amps, there is simply no need for a solid state amp.

That being said, I'm a huge Dimebag fan and have always wanted to own a Randall Warhead X2 just because of him.

Posted by: Spock Jun 4 2013, 10:38 AM

I am really diggin this Yamaha THR10X. My friend just got one and it it FUN!!!! The sound coming out of those little speakers is incredibly fat.

Would it be considered Solid State - it being software driven? If so I'm also a huge fan of Line6.


Gotta luv Satchel of Steel Panther - he's a nut case!
"...some of the first things you learn are..." <---- plays Eruption hahaha



My first 1/2 stack was a Crate system back in the early 90s I purchased used for $600.

I have to admit, I NEVER liked the heavy tones on it, very thin sounding to me - and way too, i don't know the word - tinny maybe? Tin can-ish? But to this day, I haven't found a clean tone that I like better, the dash of chorus it had, to me it was perfect. I still compare all the clean tones I try to achieve against that P.O.S. Crate amp, and have yet to copy it perfectly but have come close. I do like the clean tone of my Marshall, it's much rawer sounding, but I wish I could find some sort of setting that matched that old Crate clean channel.

Posted by: deeaa Jun 4 2013, 11:11 AM

Every amp I ever tried, maybe save some 20 dollar starter toys, have had at least one sound that would be very good for something. I think a great player makes any amp sound good.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jun 4 2013, 11:54 AM

I don't know if this could be called descent but ...I think it works for the purpose and You could use it if there would be no other amp available at the moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VbSqRPiGv4

Posted by: Blue Willy Jun 11 2013, 06:57 AM

As has been said before in this thread, best means different things to different people. If I was playing in a cover band and needed to get a lot of different sounds heard on hit recordings I'd probably go for a modeling amp. A friend of mine who plays metal doesn't even use an amp on stage, he plugs into a Pod and into the PA.

But I play in a blues band mostly or when I do rock it is original songs or arrangements not direct covers so I don't need to sound like somebody else's idea of great tone. Me, I just use my old familiar 1954 Gretsch Country Club and plug into my favorite tube amp. a modified Traynor. I don't use my pedal board much since I have grown tired of it. I stopped taking it to gigs a year or so ago and frankly, I don't miss it at all. The stompboxes seem to destroy the tone of my guitar and amp or destroy the dynamics or both.

I use this guitar:
http://s13.photobucket.com/user/xs650mike/media/roofvids063_zps057da4ba.jpg.html

And this amp:
http://s13.photobucket.com/user/xs650mike/media/Amps033.jpg.html

I recorded the following with that guitar and that amp, fingerpicked the background and overdubbed the melody parts. I even used the exact same settings for both parts on both guitar and amp. All knobs on the guitar are dimed with the neck pickup backed down very slightly. Both pickups engaged. The amp settings are: volume - 1, treble - 5, bass - 5, reverb - 2, vibrato - off.

Try that with your modeling amp!

Posted by: deeaa Jun 12 2013, 07:12 PM

How do you like the guitar sound on this one:

http://deeaa.pp.fi/Bousos/2013/kes%e4mixit/Epaihmistenpuolue_6_13.mp3

Posted by: bobg Jun 20 2013, 11:49 PM

I grudgingly sold my1985 Solid State Yamaha G100-112 III 2 years back.
It was a GREAT amp, was quite loud and took well to effects pedals.
I believe they (2 of them) were the amp of choice by Mike Stern ( or was it Pat Metheny?) for a time.
BG

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jun 21 2013, 05:10 PM

Hi man, I like it. It also has some phaser or any other modulation...