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Posted by: Murloc Aug 28 2009, 10:36 PM

How do you create songs out of scales? How do you know what scale a song is in? What does it meen with different patterns or boxes? What does pentatonic meen? Why dont I understand any of this stuff?

Posted by: JVM Aug 28 2009, 10:50 PM

Hi,

There's a lot to know. It can be very overwhelming for a beginner. I suggest you start with Andrew's http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showforum=25, at the Where to Start topic.

Patterns and boxes are pieces of a scale, played on the fretboard. Don't confuse them with scales in and of themselves, they are merely how to play a particular scale at a *particular spot on the fretboard*. This will become more clear to you when you study the Major Scale (I suggest you do that after you're done reading through anything else you want to in Andrew's board). By the way, 'patterns' and 'boxes' are more or less the same thing. There is an overall 'pattern' of a major scale, which is split into boxes for convenience and ease of learning.

Pentatonic means '5 notes' or something along those lines. They are a given scale with the note choice trimmed down. I suggest you learn more about this on your own after learning the Major Scale.

To create songs out of scales takes enough experience that you are comfortable in them, when you study a bit more, perhaps try joining one of the http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showforum=40 to try your hand at making music out of scales.

As to why you don't understand any of it, you will, just keep asking questions and you'll get it!

Posted by: Jenbu Aug 28 2009, 10:59 PM

There should be link to the theory board that easily could be found because that board makes theory much easier

Posted by: Murloc Aug 29 2009, 10:27 AM

Thanks, your reply was very helpful. I'll try looking in to the theory board and see if things get any clearer

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Aug 29 2009, 10:43 AM

Lots of questions and very common ones. Lets address them one by one...

1) How do you create songs out of scales?
There are couple of very important scales from which music is made from. These are Major scale, natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor. Every scale has its own formula and various distance of half steps and whole steps between scale degrees (notes in the scale). Every scale has its own harmony in it. We take notes within the scale and create chords out of them by stacking diatonic 3rds (every other note). I am doing series on triads in major scale harmony. This lesson will be extremely useful to you if you are total beginner in theory! Will send you link when lessons get published (series have 3 parts).
We create songs by using various combination of chords that come from given scale(s).

2) How do you know what scale a song is in?
This is pretty simple. Once you learn harmony (what chords exist) in major scale, natural minor, harmonic and melodic minor, you will be able to tell that because rules for one major scale apply for all 12 major scales and so it goes for natural harmonic and melodic minor. In music we have 12 notes (chromatic scale, made out of 12 half steps) and this is all that we use in contemporary music!
By knowing the harmony rules in given scale, we can determine what key specific song or chord progression is in.

3) What does it mean with different patterns or boxes?
Here we are referring to couple of different systems. We as guitar players like to use CAGED system which is 5 shapes that cover whole guitar neck. These shapes are also known as boxes or patterns if you will. They enable us to master our instrument faster and connect things better when soloing. Another system that we like to use is 3 note per string system. Here in major scale (for example) we have 7 patterns or boxes vs CAGED system that has 5.
Each system has its own advantages and disadvantages that I will not get into know. For time being it is great for you to know that they exist and that you should focus on them primarily. There is also two note per string approach which is horizontal approach to guitar playing (playing through the guitar neck) but this is more advanced system that you can get to after you master CAGED and 3 note per string systems.

4)What does pentatonic mean?
Pentatonic comes from Greek word Penta which means FIVE. In music vocabulary, pentatonic scale means simply five note scale. there is a lot of different pentatonic scales. Very common ones that guitar players use are Minor and Major pentatonic scale. They each have different formulas and (obviously) sound different. There is other pentatonic scales that are more advanced and have their applications in contemporary styles of music like Jazz and Fusion. Those pentatonics are Dominant 7th pentatonic, Minor 7b5 pentatonic, Melodic minor pentatonic, Diminished pentatonic etc.

5)Why dont I understand any of this stuff?
I am guessing because you are beginner in theory and harmony and all this is very new to you. You shouldn't worry about that because we are all here to help and find a way for you to improve.

I hope this response answered your questions clearly.
Let me know if you have any questions, I would be glad to help.

Pedja

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Aug 31 2009, 12:47 AM

In addition to everything said above, here's one very nice little site for you to check out:

www.musictheory.net

Posted by: Murloc Aug 31 2009, 03:46 PM

Thanks pedja for taking your time and writing that long answer and to Ivan: nice site, but when I open the list of what to study I dont know what anything meens or what I should start with

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Aug 31 2009, 04:03 PM

You welcome Murloc.

I posted that site couple of months ago here on GMC. It is extremely useful as it has great ear training tools. Theory part is not bad, but I would rather suggest you get a good book and read it.

Mark Levine - Jazz theory book

Link for it http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040

That is one of the best theory books that I read after years of studying music. The price is a steal since I payed it 50$ (at the time). Get it if you can, read it and I am sure a lot of things will be easier once you go through first two chapters!

Posted by: Murloc Aug 31 2009, 04:35 PM

Jazz theory book? I am not really into Jazz

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Aug 31 2009, 04:43 PM

It doesn't matter if your into Jazz. Its the theory behind the jazz that makes everything so complex. And this book looks like a great tool to help you learn theory. I might pick it up. Thanks Pedja!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Aug 31 2009, 04:45 PM

Exactly ESAJ!

Murloc get it, it starts from total beginner things all the way to advance concepts. It has over 400 pages!!!

Posted by: Murloc Aug 31 2009, 04:53 PM

But what would be the difference if it were a rock or blues theory book?

Posted by: jafomatic Aug 31 2009, 05:03 PM

It would be fewer pages and contain less information, in all likelihood. The mechanical requirements for those styles are substantially lower. I'd look at it this way:

- If you want to know a little about how to play those styles, learn less
- If you want to know roughly the same amount about those styles, learn from book about those styles
- If you want to know enough to bring your OWN flavor to whatever style, learn more.

It's fine to start out with an easier style, but it would be wrong of us not to warn you against limiting yourself. Eventually you'd start wondering "What else is out there," beyond the minor pentatonic box that your rock & blues book would leave you trapped in.

Ultimately, it's your decision.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Aug 31 2009, 05:22 PM

Murloc I read a lot of different theory and harmony books. This one is one of the most complete books I have come across. Its purpose is to teach you about jazz harmony, how tunes are written and gives you a lot of listening examples as reference point. This doesn't happen from beginning of the book. First couple of chapters are as basic as you can get with music harmony and theory. Intervals, notes, how to build triads and four note chords, inversions, scale construction, modes, chord progressions... These are the things you need to read learn and apply. That is the only way to master these things, otherwise there will be gaps in your development and eventually you will come back to relearn things again Why not do it now, from the very start?

Go for it man

Posted by: Emir Hot Aug 31 2009, 05:27 PM

There is no rock theory book Music theory is for all music. Jazz theory is the term people use because they are explaining jazz modes, jazz chords and jazz concept which is imposible to explain without music theory. Rock is not as complex matter but some things can be explained through the music theory. 90% of rock guitar legends from 70's did not know music theory. If you learn basics of music theory and then move into understanding jazz concepts, rock will be just a piece of cake to understand as there is nothing that complex in rock (theory wise) but it sounds cool and we all like to listen and play it. Of course you can play rock without any theory knowledge but theory will help you a lot to better understand improvisation.

Posted by: JVM Aug 31 2009, 05:42 PM

Interesting looking book Pedja, I might pick it up as well, thanks

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Aug 31 2009, 05:46 PM

You welcome JVM. I picked it up for 50$ and I would pay it 3 times more with amount of information it provided me. Amazing book really. For 28.90$ its a steal and I do mean a steal

Posted by: Murloc Aug 31 2009, 05:53 PM

I dont wanna steal

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Aug 31 2009, 07:22 PM

Its a expression when something is really cheap or good price

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Aug 31 2009, 11:19 PM

That made me chuckle

Posted by: iamblackmo Sep 1 2009, 12:58 AM

The site Ivan linked to you is great and Emir's statement is dead-on true.

Lead guitar and improvisation can be an adventure, a learning journey, and experience that you will never forget and will be able to share with others. As you learn piece by piece, more and more makes sense.

I started playing rock rhythm guitar and wanted to venture into lead: That is when I started subscribing here and the theory knowledge that I never learned in High School band has made me a prospect for lead guitar by several bands in the area.

It is not the technical skill I gained, it is the ability of envisioning a song and taking it from a blind riff to a full-composition.

It is a wonderful feeling when you can harmonize over other peoples ideas or just pick up the instrument and know "where to lay the strokes of the paint brush"

Thanks for the suggestion on the Jazz Theory book, btw: As strongly as you guys recommend it, I ordered it from Amazon about 33 dollars. I don't have much money as a student but anything that lets one expand their artistic and emotional output is worth time and money.

-Mo

Also,

Not to slight any other instructor who may do this. As you expand, watching David Walliman's videos are extremely informative. He will always have a discussion before the lesson.

Some of the things he may say could fly right over your head but your goal may be to understand all of these concepts in the future. I also found that even the guitarist's with untouchable skill on this level are so humble that you can expect an answer, no matter how simple you may think it is, from the likes of Muris or Ivan.

Don't be afraid to ask, study during every session you get, and observe the play of others very carefully.

(I think I learned more about lead dynamics from watching hours upon hours of Slash live performances than I did playing tab after tab of GnR.)

Posted by: Farmer Joe Sep 7 2009, 08:11 PM

Just received my copy of The Jazz Theory Book in the mail. Looks pretty good I'm going to start reading a bit now, thanks for the suggestion, Pedja

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 7 2009, 10:35 PM

Awesome Joe!
Have fun reading it, let me know how it goes