Latency Bias Plugin Vs Pod Farm Options

[Arpeggio]

So far I've been using UX2 > Pod farm > Cubase Essential 5. I decided to try out BIAS AMP (Demo) but can't get the latency down as much as I can with POD farm so there is always a slight delay between when I play and when the speaker plays what I played.

When recording into Cubase Pod Farm opens separately and its sound goes into Cubase with no noticeable latency. BIAS Amp, on the other hand, works as a plugin within Cubase. I've tried to get the latency for BIAS amp down as much as I can with the ASIO UX2 settings by getting the buffer size right down but there is still a little delay I'd rather not have.

Can anyone tell me what I am missing, or why they think this is?

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[jstcrsn]

So far I've been using UX2 > Pod farm > Cubase Essential 5. I decided to try out BIAS AMP (Demo) but can't get the latency down as much as I can with POD farm so there is always a slight delay between when I play and when the speaker plays what I played.

When recording into Cubase Pod Farm opens separately and its sound goes into Cubase with no noticeable latency. BIAS Amp, on the other hand, works as a plugin within Cubase. I've tried to get the latency for BIAS amp down as much as I can with the ASIO UX2 settings by getting the buffer size right down but there is still a little delay I'd rather not have.

Can anyone tell me what I am missing, or why they think this is?

have you adjusted settings( buffer size) from Bias itself. ( I think upper right hand corner).

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[yoncopin]

have you adjusted settings( buffer size) from Bias itself. ( I think upper right hand corner).

+1

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[Mertay]

I checked your line6 soundcard and as far as I understand the plug-ins are actually powered by the soundcard.

So your soundcard is like a processor in this matter which can do direct monitoring, with normal plug-ins you can't do this. But to further decrease latency of bias aside buffer settings try opening a project 96khz as well but keep in mind there will always be some latency.

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[Todd Simpson]

BIAS is killer, HOWEVER, it does require some cpu horsepower to run well and without perceptible latency. If you are running an older laptop, BIAS may bog it down a bit. Simple fix is to use line 6 for real time recording, then use bias during mixdown as a replacement plugin to get different tones. Bit of a pain in the neck to be sure. But the easy fix to be sure as well.

If you didn't change the buffer settings and you are getting lag on bias and not on your line 6, then the software only bias may be bogging your rig down a bit. Did you share the specs of your computer in the thread? Also, pop over to the bias site and check out their minimum requirements to see if they match your computer hardware. I'm on a Mac so my hardware is a bit different but not by much. I've found that using a quad i7 with 16gb of ram and an ssd hard drive allows four tracks of BIAS to run just fine. However, my dual i3 cpu with 16gb of ram balks after two tracks of bias sometimes.




Todd

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 25 2016, 08:16 PM

[Arpeggio]

have you adjusted settings( buffer size) from Bias itself. ( I think upper right hand corner).

I can do that in the standalone version but as a plug-in via Cubase it doesn’t have any settings it seems. The cog wheel symbol on the upper right doesn’t include “Audio Settings” so I set them in the standalone version hoping that will also apply in plug-in mode.

I checked your line6 soundcard and as far as I understand the plug-ins are actually powered by the soundcard.

So your soundcard is like a processor in this matter which can do direct monitoring, with normal plug-ins you can't do this. But to further decrease latency of bias aside buffer settings try opening a project 96khz as well but keep in mind there will always be some latency.

I think you are right. My computer’s sound card is onboard motherboard and sounds like pants (don’t use it for audio work). I will try 96Khz, although I thought that would increase the workload for the computer. Aside from that, Cubase Essential 5 only goes up to 24 bit, which I think should be enough as it sounds good enough I think.

BIAS is killer, HOWEVER, it does require some cpu horsepower to run well and without perceptible latency. If you are running an older laptop, BIAS may bog it down a bit. Simple fix is to use line 6 for real time recording, then use bias during mixdown as a replacement plugin to get different tones. Bit of a pain in the neck to be sure. But the easy fix to be sure as well.

If you didn't change the buffer settings and you are getting lag on bias and not on your line 6, then the software only bias may be bogging your rig down a bit. Did you share the specs of your computer in the thread? Also, pop over to the bias site and check out their minimum requirements to see if they match your computer hardware. I'm on a Mac so my hardware is a bit different but not by much. I've found that using a quad i7 with 16gb of ram and an ssd hard drive allows four tracks of BIAS to run just fine. However, my dual i3 cpu with 16gb of ram balks after two tracks of bias sometimes.

Todd

I agree with applying BIAS post recording and that it can be a bit of a pain. I suppose it would take some getting used to playing something with a “naked” sound (based on my assumption that its easier to play something with the type of guitar sound intended). However, of course you can also make it sound how you like and change your mind afterwards this way.

My system is AMD A4 3.4 Ghz (Dual Core) with 4 MB RAM. Given the specifications you mention and how it deals with BIAS that might be part of the problem. With the buffer set to the lowest the sound occasionally breaks up. I also cleaned up my computer (temp files etc.) and turned off some programs at start up to free up some RAM, which seemed to help a bit.

On another note I’m recording Bass Guitar at the moment (after waiting for the zingy metallic sound of new Bass strings go away when I made the mistake of replacing them last attempt a couple of months ago). After messing around with different modellers I’m finding that actually using none at all seems to compete as far as the sound I want. I guess Bass Guitar doesn’t use / need effects as often as the Electric Guitar. It seems easier for the Bass notes to get lost when you mess around too much, perhaps for the same reason chords aren’t often played on Bass as the notes blend into each other and sound muddy with the human hear is more attuned to mid range frequencies rather than low ones. I get the impression that Thin Lizzy was light with the Bass effects. I wonder what others thoughts might be on recording Bass as far as applying effects / modellers or not are concerned? Do you find similar issues and that less can be more?

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[yoncopin]

I got a Behringer DI-100 and you can send your dry signal to the PC and another to an external piece of hardware. If you have a practice amp or similar you can use that for monitoring while you track the dry signal. Then apply BIAS in the DAW afterwards.

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This post has been edited by yoncopin: Oct 26 2016, 07:07 PM

[Mertay]

...

Hey arpeggio,

Yeah 96khz will increase the cpu load, actually the more you decrease the latecy this will happen. Cpu is a limit but even with the best computer as said there will be some latency.

As yoncopin mentioned, setting up a silent recording solution is the best workaround. There are various ways like using a processor, using amp with a line-out converter and there are also pedal sized analog preamps from brands like tech 21 and amt. I'm currently getting all my drive sounds from my pedals and currently in research on pedal sized preamps, let me know if have any questions if needed.

24 bit is standard with audio recording so you're ok with that.

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[Rammikin]

A small delay is inevitable, but it shouldn't be noticeable. At a reasonable buffer size it should be no different than standing a few feet away from an amp. What buffer size are you using?

So far I've been using UX2 > Pod farm > Cubase Essential 5. I decided to try out BIAS AMP (Demo) but can't get the latency down as much as I can with POD farm so there is always a slight delay between when I play and when the speaker plays what I played.

When recording into Cubase Pod Farm opens separately and its sound goes into Cubase with no noticeable latency. BIAS Amp, on the other hand, works as a plugin within Cubase. I've tried to get the latency for BIAS amp down as much as I can with the ASIO UX2 settings by getting the buffer size right down but there is still a little delay I'd rather not have.

Can anyone tell me what I am missing, or why they think this is?

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[Todd Simpson]

The 4 GB of ram is getting in your way. I"d suggest 16 GB for an audio workstation but I'd say much lower than 8 and you may run in to issues, like this one.

As for putting bias on after, I was saying use the line6 or some other plugin that works, while recording, then just swap to bias during mix down. You can create a template project with both plugings loaded on a track and just turn bias off when recording, turn pod farm on, then when mixing, turn bias on and line 6 off

BASS: For recording bass, usually a compressor, bit of eq, pinch of reverb should do it. Many daws have presets for whatever type of track you are recording that can serve as a starting point. If yours doesn't, you can make your own template projects with the plugins you use for bass and the bass track ready to go. Saves you from starting from scratch each time Here is a vid on recording bass in cubase

I can do that in the standalone version but as a plug-in via Cubase it doesn’t have any settings it seems. The cog wheel symbol on the upper right doesn’t include “Audio Settings” so I set them in the standalone version hoping that will also apply in plug-in mode.



I think you are right. My computer’s sound card is onboard motherboard and sounds like pants (don’t use it for audio work). I will try 96Khz, although I thought that would increase the workload for the computer. Aside from that, Cubase Essential 5 only goes up to 24 bit, which I think should be enough as it sounds good enough I think.



I agree with applying BIAS post recording and that it can be a bit of a pain. I suppose it would take some getting used to playing something with a “naked” sound (based on my assumption that its easier to play something with the type of guitar sound intended). However, of course you can also make it sound how you like and change your mind afterwards this way.

My system is AMD A4 3.4 Ghz (Dual Core) with 4 MB RAM. Given the specifications you mention and how it deals with BIAS that might be part of the problem. With the buffer set to the lowest the sound occasionally breaks up. I also cleaned up my computer (temp files etc.) and turned off some programs at start up to free up some RAM, which seemed to help a bit.

On another note I’m recording Bass Guitar at the moment (after waiting for the zingy metallic sound of new Bass strings go away when I made the mistake of replacing them last attempt a couple of months ago). After messing around with different modellers I’m finding that actually using none at all seems to compete as far as the sound I want. I guess Bass Guitar doesn’t use / need effects as often as the Electric Guitar. It seems easier for the Bass notes to get lost when you mess around too much, perhaps for the same reason chords aren’t often played on Bass as the notes blend into each other and sound muddy with the human hear is more attuned to mid range frequencies rather than low ones. I get the impression that Thin Lizzy was light with the Bass effects. I wonder what others thoughts might be on recording Bass as far as applying effects / modellers or not are concerned? Do you find similar issues and that less can be more?

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 27 2016, 06:36 PM

[Arpeggio]

I got a Behringer DI-100 and you can send your dry signal to the PC and another to an external piece of hardware. If you have a practice amp or similar you can use that for monitoring while you track the dry signal. Then apply BIAS in the DAW afterwards.

Good idea.

A small delay is inevitable, but it shouldn't be noticeable. At a reasonable buffer size it should be no different than standing a few feet away from an amp. What buffer size are you using?

Now I’m on 128 samples (2.9ms), I think its my PC’s lack off processor power and RAM is the issue now though. Originally I think I got something wrong.

The 4 GB of ram is getting in your way. I"d suggest 16 GB for an audio workstation but I'd say much lower than 8 and you may run in to issues, like this one.

As for putting bias on after, I was saying use the line6 or some other plugin that works, while recording, then just swap to bias during mix down. You can create a template project with both plugings loaded on a track and just turn bias off when recording, turn pod farm on, then when mixing, turn bias on and line 6 off

BASS: For recording bass, usually a compressor, bit of eq, pinch of reverb should do it. Many daws have presets for whatever type of track you are recording that can serve as a starting point. If yours doesn't, you can make your own template projects with the plugins you use for bass and the bass track ready to go. Saves you from starting from scratch each time Here is a vid on recording bass in cubase

Interesting advice and video thanks, it all makes sense. At least I know it’s not my lack of tech know-how now and a computer power issue. On the video when he says: “You can’t tell if your looking for the Bass in the mix but if you remove it then it is instantly recognisable” I used to make the mistake of listening to the Bass in the finished mix with the same “ears” as when listening to guitar, and thinking the Bass was somehow not prominent enough but that was the wrong way of thinking. There’s a lot going on in his mix compared to mine, which is funk with just Bass and Drums with occasional guitar. Just needs a few James Brown “UH’s”. Can’t see where I can attach mp3 on this forum.

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[Rammikin]

FWIW, it sounds like there might be a misunderstanding here. More RAM and more processing power is always good, but those will have no affect on your latency when you have your buffer size set to 128.

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[Arpeggio]

FWIW, it sounds like there might be a misunderstanding here. More RAM and more processing power is always good, but those will have no affect on your latency when you have your buffer size set to 128.

My bad. Originally I thought it was a latency issue related to how BIAS works in Cubase compared to how POD farm does. Once I realized it's not that I realized the next problem is the computing power at low buffer setting.

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[Todd Simpson]

I did sorta get what you were saying I hope Basically, it's fine using pod farm, but sluggish using BIAS right? Thankfully, that is the sort of thing that a bit of ram might help. BIAS is a bit of a MEMORY HOG. Especially if you have it on more than one track. It's using complex algorithms and behaving better with wads of resources thrown at it for good measure

That's why I was suggesting to track/record with line 6/pod far, then just put turn off the line 6 and turn on the BIAS for mix down. Mix down is not as resource intensive as you are not recording, typically while you are doing it

Hope this helps! BTW, if you save up for a new computer, I'd honestly suggest, a 2012 Macbook Pro quad i7 with 16 GB ram. These can be had on ebay now for about $600.

Then you can put more ram in if it only has 4 GB, store bought ram is cheap, and so is SSD storage these days Next thing you know you have a screaming machine that's about as fast as the mac laptops that now cost around 2 to 3 thousand dollars.

Here are the specs from my main Music computer. I've one to back it up in case it fails, but 2011 so a bit older/slower. Also I have a netbook for email/GMC/chat/etc. I try not to use my "MUSIC RIGS" for Email/Web/etc. Just Music, as much as possible. Just like in a real studio Of course, real studios do sometimes use their main machine for web surfing/email/etc. It's just not a great idea. But some folks dont have a choice. I got rid of my big Iron and moved to 3 laptops and have never been happier I attach them to large 50 inch led displays at 1920x1080 HD which is plenty of resolution for music. Much more and I gotta squint

MUSIC PRODUCTION RIG (Total cost $650, and runs on par with machines currently in production )


BACKUP PRODOCUTION RIG ( TOTAL COST $600, just about as fast, both are SSD drive based)


Todd


( I bought two macbook pros of similar spec and added my own ssd drives as it was cheaper, and my own ram, One 2012, one 2011)

My bad. Originally I thought it was a latency issue related to how BIAS works in Cubase compared to how POD farm does. Once I realized it's not that I realized the next problem is the computing power at low buffer setting.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 31 2016, 08:11 AM

[Arpeggio]

Thanks Todd. With the UX2 I have to use POD farm to get a signal into Cubase (from my experience / as far as I know) so I take it that I would use a clean unprocessed signal in POD farm to record, so I can work from that with BIAS later?

That's a great idea for saving the hassle of getting a new system. I used to be into 3D computer graphics in 1993 (on the Amiga) but the proper rendering computers cost at least £10,000 back then. Obviously in this instance, stuff is a lot cheaper now and a new system is a worthy consideration sometime in the future.

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[Arpeggio]

Got extra 4MB and BIAS AMP recently. Computer manages. It's better than old setup I think. I find that I don't need POD farm at all (I thought it was necessary for UX2 to work)

I do a lot of ear training. So far modellers tend to disagree with my ears, I don't know why, not objectively. It's the sound alright but its all from 1's and 0's 100011101011001 it's good enough though.

Once I put natural juice in a wasp trap, and in another wasp trap I put orange pop (that contained aspartame). The wasps knew the difference, after a couple of days the natural juice one was packed with wasps and the aspartame one was empty but one lone wasp.

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[Todd Simpson]

**Here is my rig in video editing mode using the laptop as the video confidence monitor. I"m never going back to desktops. I'm a laptop convert

Adding more resources (e.g. ram) certainly helps And baking the fx on to a track helps too. You usually have a command in most daws that will bake the fx (e.g. render) the fx on to a signal and make it a new track. Then you just mute the original jtrack. That way it doesnt have to process at all

Ram is cheap so maxing out your ram is a good way to go as Positive Grid is a bit of a hog, also adding an SSD (can't remember if you have one or not) is a great way to make EVERYTHING feel faster. Best investment I EVER made was putting a 960 GB SSD in my laptop. WOW!!!! Apps launch instantly, plugins run smooth, rendering is super fast (eg. exporting)

I actually stopped using my big quad proc tower mac and my sold my quad proc imac i7 and bought two old mac laptops (macbook pro quad i7). If you buy a late 2012 mac laptop and put 16gb of ramin and a 960 SSD drive and pull out the optical/dvd drive and replace it with a large standard laptop drive (did that too) You have a MONSTER of a machine that can run anything without a snag and it costs about a quarter of what a new mac laptop costs and runs about as good The key is the late 2012 as that's when thunderbolt comes in to play big time. I have my laptops each driving a 45 inch big screen LCD display. So the laptop screen is a preview screen for editing video and plugin screen when recording/mixing music.

Of course this assumes an investment of about $900 but that is far better than shelling out $3,000 or better for a new Macbook pro that isn't that much faster. The pre 2012 laptops are cheaper but they dont' have "real" thunderbolt so they won't work with the very spiff docking boxes that allow you to connect everything from SAS (serial attached storage) drives to extra display. I bought a dock for a couple hundred bux and it adds USB 3 (which the mac doesn't have) and extra DVI video out, SAS ports, etc. Sorry to go on such a mac rant But I have two laptop based rigs now and my setup is much simpler. The same thing would work for PC really Just running windows instead. I just don't run windows is all as LOGIC X doen'st exist on windows

Got extra 4MB and BIAS AMP recently. Computer manages. It's better than old setup I think. I find that I don't need POD farm at all (I thought it was necessary for UX2 to work)

I do a lot of ear training. So far modellers tend to disagree with my ears, I don't know why, not objectively. It's the sound alright but its all from 1's and 0's 100011101011001 it's good enough though.

Once I put natural juice in a wasp trap, and in another wasp trap I put orange pop (that contained aspartame). The wasps knew the difference, after a couple of days the natural juice one was packed with wasps and the aspartame one was empty but one lone wasp.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Mar 11 2017, 06:23 AM

[Rammikin]

Adding more resources (e.g. ram) certainly helps And baking the fx on to a track helps too. You usually have a command in most daws that will bake the fx (e.g. render) the fx on to a signal and make it a new track. Then you just mute the original jtrack. That way it doesnt have to process at all

Just a minor correction: Generally speaking, muting a track just silences the output. It has no effect on plugin processing. If you want to reduce the load on the cpu, you should freeze the track instead of rendering it to a new track.

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[Todd Simpson]

"Baking" The FX in to a track is a way to be able to hear the track with fx without having it tax the cpu for whatever plugin so I find it quite handy Your mileage may vary of course. But I only run in to this when I'm being pretty careless with plugins.

Also I did a quick search and what I"m calling "BAKING FX" is actually the FREEZING that you are talking about It's burns the plugin into an audio file and creates a new track so that the audio file doesn't have to pass through the plugin. This is a great way to save CPU Here is an article on doing it in LOGIC

https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/quick-...ion--audio-4378

Todd

Just a minor correction: Generally speaking, muting a track just silences the output. It has no effect on plugin processing. If you want to reduce the load on the cpu, you should freeze the track instead of rendering it to a new track.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Mar 12 2017, 05:26 AM

[Rammikin]

Logic is the same as most DAWs in this respect: if you want to save cpu: freeze. Do not render/bounce to a new track. Here are instructions on freezing in Logic:

https://support.apple.com/kb/ph12937?locale=en_US

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