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GMC Forum _ GEAR & PRODUCTION _ Multi Effects Vs Pedals
Posted by: El Fortinero Dec 15 2011, 05:39 AM
Intro:
One big issue that is tormenting my days this year is the idea of having a personal sound. such a big issue indeed, isn´t it?.
Every time i go to play to bars, pubs, etc. the guitar amp is a cheap Marshall, (or worst ) and you have more or less the same sound that have the other guitar players. And of course one wants to "sound different" and to avoid the Marshall tone as much as possible (at least in my case) (Marshall versatility sucks btw)
So many of this places, where 3 or more bands are going to play, just prepare the stage with only one set of amps, drum, etc, in order to not loose time changing the equipments. Therefore, in many places you can´t bing your killer top line amp (if you have one), or you will have to share it, which takes us again to the main problem.
So the only solution (?) is to have your personal pedals or multi effect or rack or whatever, and here comes the question of the thread:
what would you do for example if you have the money to buy a pod hd 500, would you buy it? or would you buy the one effects pedals?
My problem is: I play some mix between hard rock and nu metal, I need a dist pedal, a whammy, a delay and a wha wha (i have already one)
so i'll have to buy the delay, the dist (i am considereing according to Gabriel's advice the jekyll and hide from visulasound)l and the whammy,
but all this effects also comes in the pod hd 500,
So,what would you buy? a pod hd 500 or separates effects?
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 15 2011, 05:57 AM
I'd have to say go Multi. IT's one box to carry, and one box to power, and one box to set and patch. I've done the wads of pedals and cables things and IMHO it's just not worth it for club gigs. It's great in a bedroom, but for gigging, it's a bit of a pain, and just adds more things that can fail and go wrong. But that's just my view 
So yeah, POD would be a good choice. The Zoom with two wah style foot contorllers is getting good reviews, but in the end it will come down to you. So per usual, getting some time with various multi units is well worth it even if you have to take a long trip to do it.
Here are some to consider
BOSS GT10
http://www.thomann.de/gb/boss_gt10.htm
POD HD 500
http://www.thomann.de/gb/line6_pod_hd500.htm
BUDGET OPTION
For about 200 Euro you can get a Rocktron Utopia which honestly has a MUCH, MUCH better build quality than either of the above and it well suited for gigging. It's a bit heavier but solid as a rock. You can throw it off a truck and it won't break and it's pretty cheap. For club work, it has more than enough tone. Keep in mind, your going to sound like the Mic and P.A. more than your rig in a club in general. The sound samples on the page give a crap representation of the "metal" sound. I've tested this unit and it can sound better, give it a shot.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/rocktron_utopia_g100.htm
Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 15 2011, 11:54 AM
Mate, I would go for a combo and stomp boxes multi effects are definitely not my type of gear. I am the fan of things which are doing only ONE thing and that's it!
Now the question is, how much are you ready to invest in your gear, because money is more or less the decisive factor in this kind of situation.
For what you play, you need a serious tube amp, for instance, the Peavey 5150 or 6505 are good choices (they are heads) and a 2x12 speaker cab can do the work very very nicely.
Now if you own that sort of gear you need to sort out the logistics problem, as you can't go around with those big things without a car.
Multi effects seem as a suitable solution, but the sound is artificial and the tone seems as such. Now, Periphery for instance, have been working with the AxeFX lately and it does the trick for them. They sound huge nonetheless 
I think it's a matter of personal taste after all. My advice would be to take all the factors into account and draw a line:
- price
- logistic issues
- tone
these would be the most important
cheerios
Cosmin
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 15 2011, 05:17 PM
Well I gotta say, as years go buy, I prefer simplistic approach. I used lots of pedals on stages, everything ranging from cheap entry level stomps, ROcktron, Boss, to boutique pedals, and in the end - all I have left is one Tubescreamer TS9 reissue that I use as a boost (if needed), and nothing else.
Guitar player needs to be able to adapt to any gear on stage. It's not the gear - it's the player. If you play right, and make settings right, it will sound decent even on cheap Marshall. If you need to have reverb, delay or wah or anything that presents important characteristics of your style, then sure use that. More compact pedalboard - the better.
I would personally advise staying away from multifx unit of any kind when going on stage. It will never sound like analog pedal, since these units are digital.
Posted by: Sinisa Cekic Dec 15 2011, 10:50 PM
Yeah,more a matter of practicality and in fact what you want. I will explain: Digital still can't beat analog, maybe in a few years, but it doesn't matter. What I mean is, maybe sounds funny but it is the truth, - mobility. If you are willing to trawl a 50 pound amplifier, a bag with a bunch of cables, a bag with pedals, two guitars, stands for them..etc - go for it, I can't anymore! If you want to be a cool Mr man, take a Boss GT10, stick it into any sound system and you will have a decent tone. Unpack and pack for 2 minutes 
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 15 2011, 11:55 PM
It looks like we have three entirely different suggestions for our student. This is a blessing and a curse. Each player has a view supported by their experience which our student is on the verge of gaining for himself. Perhaps the most practical approach is to spend as little as humanly possible and gain some experience and use that to make further decisions.
Ivans approach is bar far the cheapest and is therefore a great place to start. One tube screamer is perhaps the best money you can spend. They sound amazing and rarely break. You can add it before or after a multi if you get one later.
A 60 Watt combo can get you started for club gigging. And you can pick up a used Marshal combo for example pretty cheap. So a tube screamer and smallish combo and you can start gigging and seeing what other musicians on your circuit are doing. Every circuit is a bit different, not by huge margins typically, but different. So see what type of gear other musicians in your area are bringing to gigs. Ask about their experience in clubs with the gear they are using.
As you make some money on gigs, save it up and start planning your next purchase. You don't need to have your "dream" / "perfect" or even a "great" rig to start with. You just need to start.
I have to agree
But some I too went through the "lugging tons of gear around" stage that Cosmin is suggesting. For a time, it did seem worth it. For me, that time has passed. But again, that's just me As SINISA mentioned, the Gt10 direct to a PA will get you going and it's really, really, easy to transport and set up.
But as I'van mentioned, analog pedals do sound great but you'll need an amp.
As Cosmin mentioned, Killer Heads/cabs/Pedals sound best of all, but weigh a ton and cost more than your car assuming you have one as you'll need it to tote all that gear!
So a lot of it depends on where you are at this point financially, physically, and psychologically.
Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 16 2011, 12:10 AM
Ivans approach is bar far the cheapest and is therefore a great place to start. One tube screamer is perhaps the best money you can spend. They sound amazing and rarely break. You can add it before or after a multi if you get one later.
A 60 Watt combo can get you started for club gigging. And you can pick up a used Marshal combo for example pretty cheap. So a tube screamer and smallish combo and you can start gigging and seeing what other musicians on your circuit are doing. Every circuit is a bit different, not by huge margins typically, but different. So see what type of gear other musicians in your area are bringing to gigs. Ask about their experience in clubs with the gear they are using.
As you make some money on gigs, save it up and start planning your next purchase. You don't need to have your "dream" / "perfect" or even a "great" rig to start with. You just need to start.
I have to agree
But some I too went through the "lugging tons of gear around" stage that Cosmin is suggesting. For a time, it did seem worth it. For me, that time has passed. But again, that's just me As SINISA mentioned, the Gt10 direct to a PA will get you going and it's really, really, easy to transport and set up.
But as I'van mentioned, analog pedals do sound great but you'll need an amp.
As Cosmin mentioned, Killer Heads/cabs/Pedals sound best of all, but weigh a ton and cost more than your car assuming you have one as you'll need it to tote all that gear!
So a lot of it depends on where you are at this point financially, physically, and psychologically.I am going to have to ixna the ossba) THAT'S NIX TH BOSS PEDDLE) has I have found there distortion to be very tinty
[edit] Sound quality
The million dollar question. The majority of users agree that the GT-10 excels at clean sounds and crunches. Where they divide sharply is on the preamp quality, cab sims and high-gain sounds. There's no nice way to say it. Boss really screwed up the high gains in this unit. They're very fizzy and all sound the same. Fortunately, Hadley Hockensmith (who is Neil Diamond's guitarist) created a small external filter called the Harmonic Converger that does magic in cleaning up the preamp/distortion quality and giving them all their distinct tones back. Unfortunately, the HC is not cheap and Boss missed the mark by not doing the job properly themselves. There are dozens of GT-10 clips on youtube so spend some time going through them and you'll find plenty of good and bad points and samples. Quite a few users have solved the high-gain problem by putting a quality distortion pedal in the Send/Receive loop. Others have found that by lowering the gain, not using as much as one would want, can achieve very usable heavy distortion sounds - but the digital fizz remains. I chose buying a HC and have not regretted it -- this quote is from a boss gt-10 review in wiki
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 16 2011, 01:20 AM
Of course, as mentioned, some players are bringing their laptop on stage and skipping the gear drama all together. Here is a link where various players talk about using guitar rig for home/studio/road/live etc.
http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/guitar-rig-5-pro/?page=2510
The guy from the DEFTONES has a video talking about ditching his huge rack and just using a laptop and pedal board. It's still the bleeding edge, but it's the future
Todd
Posted by: El Fortinero Dec 16 2011, 03:12 AM
Thank you for all your advices guys!! I am still thinking, maybe i'll buy separates pedals and put them all in a suitcase or box or whatever is the name,
a question:
what is the function of the tube screamer? to add gain to a saturate line?
I like and need a hi gain sound, but they are like 5000 usd the whole combo and, as Sinisa said, a pain in the back to transport.
I always have the doubt about playing live using guitar rig 4 with a laptop, once I asked Ivan and he told me it was not a good idea. He explained me why, but I don´t remember the reasons.
Posted by: Alex Feather Dec 16 2011, 04:42 AM
It just depends on you. If you want to spend the time to figure out how to use a multi well and if you're ok with accepting all of the effects they have, go for it. Personally I like to choose each effect individually by the way it sounds. Every pedal on my board is a different brand because one brand might have a good overdrive pedal, but not a good wah. With a multi, you have to accept all the effects from that same maker.
Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 16 2011, 09:03 AM
Very good point!
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 16 2011, 09:32 AM
a question:
what is the function of the tube screamer? to add gain to a saturate line?
I like and need a hi gain sound, but they are like 5000 usd the whole combo and, as Sinisa said, a pain in the back to transport.
I always have the doubt about playing live using guitar rig 4 with a laptop, once I asked Ivan and he told me it was not a good idea. He explained me why, but I don´t remember the reasons.
Function of tubescreamer is to increase loudness, compressing lightly while retaining some of the dynamics,and adding smooth mids to the tone. Ain't nothing special to it. Overdrive sound from it is fairly 80ties, cheap-sounding. But as a boost it works great. These pedals are cheap, and do the work. If you want good overdrive pedal, check out Blackstar ovedrives with preamp tube, they work great (but they are heavy and bulky).
What is exactly your budget? You can find decent combo amps for 400-500$, and boost them, it will do the job.
Not possible to do a gig with guitar rig 4 and a laptop. Theoretically it is, but the noise is to big, you need good laptop, good interface with high signal to noise ratio, and guitar rig. All 3 cost money, for that money it's possible to get decent combo and couple of pedals.
Depending on the function, it should boil down to this:
- if you play in a club with the drummer and whole rock band, you need to be heard on stage and have some volume behind you, feel free to carry combo and as little stomps as you need. Try to avoid multiFX unit in this case, or if you do use it, try to put it in loop for effects only, and skip modelling all together
- if you play smaller clubs, acoustic or light version of a gig, and you have decent PA system, and some monitoring for you and your bandmates, you can use a processor directly into PA system.
- if you play regularly on small to medium to big sized venues, doing frequent travels, need to look professional, and sound professional, choose a rack-based gear, bigger combo or a half-stack, if transport allows it.
Of course, a wise musician will choose it's gear according to the venue. There's no point in lugging around half stack into a night club, just as same as there is little point in carrying only processor to bigger gig or when traveling to a club with no amp. Gotta be prepared.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 19 2011, 08:39 AM
Some more hard won advice from all the guys! Well done everyone. This is a question with many answers and none are "best" in terms of your needs really, as your needs and experience and budget will determine your current "best" solution and that too will change over time as you get more experience, more budget, etc. It's a huge moving target but you are doing the right thing trying to get some information before spending money.
I've personally used the Guitar Rig approach LIVE recently (very low key gig though) and it was just great. My entire rig fit in a backpack! Which was awesome
It did take more budget than an amp and pedal as Ivan mentioned. You need a laptop (mine is $1500 U.S), and an interface (mine lists for $600 U.S.) and the software. For two thousand bux you can get a nice amp. However I personally had no noise issue as the software noise gates built in are amazing in guitar rig. But by default, yes the noise is HORRIBLE. You really need to spend wads of time on your presets. Also, you need to trust your laptop and your interface and things can always go wrong.Then again things can go wrong with your amp too. Most people raised on hardware/amps/pedals are not typically the first folks in line (as far as I've seen with a few exceptions like myself) to ditch all there gear and go at it with a laptop live. Pro's are just now embracing emulation (axe fx etc.) on a mass scale at the pro leve and still some folks won't touch it. This debate will be very active for many, many years to come.
But for you, you are sorta back where we started. Set a budget, by a decent amp and a pedal or two and start your journey of tone discovery
You can always add multi pedals, laptops, etc. But having a decent combo amp and a pedal or two will serve you well.Todd
Posted by: zoom Dec 19 2011, 10:17 AM
+1
I'm not a pro by any means but I found a good amp and then add one pedal at a time you really know what your got when you stand on it. I started off with a pod and really struggled to get a good sound.
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 19 2011, 11:54 AM
I'm not a pro by any means but I found a good amp and then add one pedal at a time you really know what your got when you stand on it. I started off with a pod and really struggled to get a good sound.
This is true, I agree. Multis are good for worst-case-scenario, but it's better to have an amp.
Posted by: Frederik Dec 19 2011, 12:19 PM
try nova system
i dont like pedals due to noise issues and huge costs
Posted by: El Fortinero Dec 20 2011, 04:43 AM
Thank you guys for your wisdom!
I have a yamaha budokar amp 50watts , very easy and light to transport. I have been seeing thousands of pedals on you tube, i think i will go for the jekyll and hyde from visual sound (still don´t know if version 1 or 2), i have a Vox wah wah and i will use the delay effect from my zoom 707 for the moment and see what happens
I was checking an amp from "Orange" 35 watts -1500usd! has anyone try it? is it worth it?
Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 20 2011, 09:07 AM
I have a yamaha budokar amp 50watts , very easy and light to transport. I have been seeing thousands of pedals on you tube, i think i will go for the jekyll and hyde from visual sound (still don´t know if version 1 or 2), i have a Vox wah wah and i will use the delay effect from my zoom 707 for the moment and see what happens
I was checking an amp from "Orange" 35 watts -1500usd! has anyone try it? is it worth it?
Orange makes wonderful amps, but I think you should first try one yourself
Posted by: MickeM Dec 20 2011, 10:22 AM
I was checking an amp from "Orange" 35 watts -1500usd! has anyone try it? is it worth it?
I think the Jekyll and Hyde will be excellent! The idea is to add your personal flavor of sound to any Marshall/Laney/Fender or whatever the keep at the gig. I'm using a Blackstar HT Dual pedal and it certainly overtakes any amp and add it's Blackstar sound. So no matter the crap I have to put up with I get my grit sound.
Is that the Orange Crush 35 watts? Or which other amp is 35 watts? Not worth 1500 usd.
Posted by: El Fortinero Dec 20 2011, 04:37 PM
not the crush, the Orange tiny terror
Posted by: Adrian Figallo Dec 20 2011, 04:56 PM
Guitar player needs to be able to adapt to any gear on stage. It's not the gear - it's the player. If you play right, and make settings right, it will sound decent even on cheap Marshall. If you need to have reverb, delay or wah or anything that presents important characteristics of your style, then sure use that. More compact pedalboard - the better.
I would personally advise staying away from multifx unit of any kind when going on stage. It will never sound like analog pedal, since these units are digital.
Too many pedals ivan?, let's ask mr frusciante, i know you like him
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 20 2011, 09:45 PM
+1 Always try before you buy if at all possible.
The orange amp you are talking about is very nice. BUT, it's only 35 Watts and you'll notice quite a bit of argument as to whether that's loud enough for live gigs. Some folks use a 35 live, if the band / drummer isn't that loud, and with a decent PA it's fine. Playing rock music, loud drummer, then you can barely hear 35. Generally speaking (again, opinions vary) I'd stay 50/65 Watts is a bare minimum for live work. The guys are sort of saying what I was mentioning in my last post. An amp and a pedal or two is a great place to start to grab a pedal and start gigging
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 20 2011, 09:47 PM
I never tried Tiny Terror, but here they are way too pricey for the size.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 20 2011, 09:48 PM
WOW. That looks awesome but also insane. I'd love to have a roadie set it up but hauling all of that gear around really pushes the bounds of sanity IMHO but God bless him for going through the effort
Probably sounds great on stage. In the house though, probably sounds like the SM57 used on his main cabinet. Really doubt anyone in the crowd could tell the diff between that rig and a Pod/Line6/multi.
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Dec 20 2011, 09:54 PM
I like John's style and the way he plays, I also like his complete gear choice
Probably sounds great on stage. In the house though, probably sounds like the SM57 used on his main cabinet. Really doubt anyone in the crowd could tell the diff between that rig and a Pod/Line6/multi.Yes, this is big stage gear definitely
Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 20 2011, 10:02 PM
I'd say honestly have a look at something (Of course the Amp Purists are going to HATE on this big time ) like the G Dec 30 or higher watt version. It's a fender amp that can sound like a Tweed, or an Orange, or a Marshall through the use of on board technology. Of course, most folks that own an orange/marshall/tweed will tell you that nothing sounds like their amp except for their amp, and there is some truth to that. But for the money, on a budget, needing to have an amp that can do as much as possible, something like this is a great way to go.
Once you are making good money you may want to buy an Orange combo, Marshal Stack, Tweed Combo and road case for each and use each one for killer tone or all at once and switch between them on stage (there are honestly players that do something like this and have full rigs that they switch between live like EDGE from U2. ) Here is a video review of the G Dec. The amount of tone and loops, presets, software, customization that comes in this little amp is amazing.
Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 20 2011, 10:09 PM
Yes, this is big stage gear definitely
It looks like all those pedals can run a plane
Posted by: Sinisa Cekic Dec 20 2011, 11:36 PM
Can't believeee
! Cosmetic finesse
Posted by: Fran Dec 20 2011, 11:54 PM
I like to use stomp boxe, because I only need the basics: distortion, delay, and chorus. Oh, and a tuner
But when I travel I take a ME-70 with me, because it workd pretty much like a set of sepparate stomps in manual mode, and it's easy to carry and set up.
For recording, a POD that can be controlled with my feet to change effects while I play.
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