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Posted by: Nemanja Feb 9 2008, 10:31 PM

The phrase loudness war (or loudness race) refers to the music industry's tendency to record, produce and broadcast music at progressively increasing levels of loudness to create a sound that stands out from others. This phenomenon can be observed in many areas of the music industry, particularly broadcasting and albums released on CD and DVD. In the case of CDs, the war stems from artists' and producers' desires to create CDs that sound as loud as possible or louder than CDs from competing artists or recording labels.[1]

However, as the maximum amplitude of a CD is at a fixed level, the overall loudness can only be increased by reducing the dynamic range. This is done by pushing the lower level program material higher while the loudest peak sounds are either destroyed or severely diminished. Certain extreme uses of compression can cause distorting or clipping the waveform of the recording.


please look at the whole text....very interesting subject : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war


as the text above say....phenomenon...that seams to apere by it self and is at the moment unstoppable...
I was not trying to tell in my own words becouse here(wikipedia) has done a great job....and grafix are great and realy helpfull...
......hope it give you some insites on the subject....

Posted by: DeepRoots Feb 9 2008, 10:39 PM

wow- opened my eyes, thanks Nemanja i had no idea this was happening

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 9 2008, 10:44 PM

yeh my friend my too..when I foud out I gived my full etention to the subject...very interesting stuff...

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Feb 10 2008, 11:39 AM

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.

Posted by: Bogdan Feb 10 2008, 12:46 PM

Very interesting subject...people here think - the louder the better !

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Feb 10 2008, 02:10 PM

We play ear blasting loud lol. Loud is better. Nobody ever told Manowar to turn down

Posted by: Dejan Feb 10 2008, 02:41 PM

the easiest way to achieve this is to make a series of 'normalize', 'wave hammer' in sound forge , normalize would increase the overall level, while wave hammer will cut the outstanding peaks, and if repeat it you would get pretty loud mix, but it doesn't mean it will sound better

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Feb 10 2008, 06:46 PM

It doesn't sound better, that is the problem, the more the sound is louder, the more is dynamic-free.

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 10 2008, 08:52 PM

@Dejan....yeah you are wright...I use Soundforge as well for mastering interventions...but not troug normalize option...I take EQ paragrafic option and cut or bus what I need...and then go troug Dinamics- Multiband...and bus up the whole singnall...to 1.8....and + I have Wawes L2 multimaximizer on master chanal in Nuendo.....only then when I compare the loudness with World productions songs(but it is allways Vlado Georgiev:)he is my parameter for loudness)...I am setisfied.....

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Feb 10 2008, 08:56 PM

I didn't mean Loudness sounds better I just meant it is better for a gig. I don't like being loud in recordings but when we are on stage we like it loud because people get more involved I find the louder you are. If you are of a decent level everybody is laid back and not doing anything. Up the loud factor and they are loving it and going crazy.

Posted by: Toni Suominen Feb 10 2008, 09:24 PM

Yeah, this is a very interesting subject. It's so annoying when you try to raise the volume on your stereo on a recording that is compressod so much that there's only a little bit of headroom and the whole thing just starts to distort. These kinds of recordings that are very much compressed may sound ok on your ipod and little headphones, but when you try to listen to it on a really good stereo system, the powerfulness and the "umph" and just isn't there. There's so little headroom that there's no place for the audio to go, and it just starts to distort when you raise the volume on your stereo system.

In a noisy enviroment, such as a mall or a workplace, a compressed and loud track can be heard better because there's really no volume differences in the track.

I read somewhere that around 70's-80's the standard amount of headroom was something like 12-10db and today it's just around 6-4db.

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 10 2008, 11:27 PM

as they say...before the people needed to rise up their volume to here...now thay need tu cut down their volume to hear..

Posted by: Toni Suominen Feb 10 2008, 11:29 PM

+1

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Feb 11 2008, 09:39 PM

Hey man, I didn't reply in that post before to you, I was just stating out the general fact. I agree with you. But now that you mentioned gigs, I must note something. Often gigs are too loud. Well it is all relative, but vast majority of gigs that I've listened too and played on to was too loud, practically overloaded and clipped. This is not the way it should go wouldn't you agree? The sound can be loud to a point, but then, even on gigs when too compressed it looses the dynamics. Often it is better too play with rolled off volume, and go to max only sometimes when leads and all. It is not good when a drummer beats the hell of drums and the sound comes out compressed. There always must be some headroom left for the dynamic dimension.

Posted by: Bogdan Feb 11 2008, 09:58 PM

Sometimes when the gig is too loud you can get opposite effect - people tend to back off the stage instead being close to the band...That too should be avoided..So somewhere in between should do the trick..

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 11 2008, 10:12 PM

The term "Loudness War".....is explicitly implied in music recording industry.....
Playing on satge(loudness) I think is diferent from case to case(diferend kind of music)...so if go tho the Pantera concert(if I coud only have time machine )...I woud like to be loud as possible....but Pantera's (stiking with examplle)volume on their CD is so much under today's metall songs....and steel they hav the best metall production in the world:)..just my opinion...

Posted by: tonymiro Feb 11 2008, 10:34 PM

I may well be wrong - usually am - but I think the term came from the rise in the recorded levels of demos and dj mixes for clubs. Basically clubbers pay more attention to 'loud' mixes - hence engineers were pushed in to increasing levels to get and keep a club's attention.

Sadly the area I do most of my work - radio production - has been sucked in to this to the extent where we now use ways of peaking and broadcasting material that is recorded loud, distorted and is over compressed and then we compress it even more.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 11 2008, 10:45 PM

I think that every thing is suked by it
and thanks for complete answer for the term...good knowe...

Posted by: Muris Feb 12 2008, 01:54 AM

Very good topic Nemanja!!

When I had my first record done I gave it too a friend(good one) to do mastering.
When he was done I took it from him,played it and my ears exploded!
I was like ..."man,it's tooo loud,why did you do it like that??"
and he said .."ohh,I thought you want it like rest of them"

So he had to make new master with bit lower power.

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 01:58 AM

but he did not know that Muris was not like the others....

Posted by: Iron King Feb 12 2008, 03:29 AM

hmmm,
I don't know

I play extremely loud and I love it. After a show I want people to think "Damn, those guys rock! I thought my head was gonna explode".

high volumes are good, but only if done right. A lot of bands I see just turn up the volume and it becomes a big mess. Lead guitar cant be heard, bass is invisible and the bass drum is so strong that it knocks the wind out of people. If a band takes the time to balance each instrument right, high volumes rock

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Feb 12 2008, 10:26 AM

Our gigs are very loud but very balanced like that. We don't play anywhere that can't handle it either. And we advise on our myspace to bring earplugs so we are even thoughtful

We also have some new earplugs every time we gig to hand out. Cheap one use ones but they do the trick.

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 10:35 AM

yeh..we use them too if it is bad monitorinig...or if ther is not any

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Feb 12 2008, 10:38 AM

I meant to give to the crowd Always make sure our crowd enoys the gig and be comfortable if they do want to protect their ears and enjoy We have expensive ones for our ears. Don't want to be deafened

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 10:49 AM

no we use the cheap one's...but now just the drummer wears them....me not any more..and if yes very rearly...

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 10:56 AM

for best demonstration to your ears for this topic..if you have some Pantera songs...play it just before the new Reimstain...and you will hear the diference...

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Feb 12 2008, 12:41 PM

I use earplugs all the time because the sound on gigs is louder and louder, because PA systems are becoming more advanced these days. They can be packed in smaller boxes and have immense dB strength. I agree that a gig should be loud, but not too loud, and certainly not too compressed.

Posted by: blindwillie Feb 12 2008, 01:11 PM

To me as a listener the sound is the important thing, not how loud it is.
I always bring earplugs nowadays to a concert just in case but I like it better if the volume is at a level where it doesn't hurt my ears and I can fully enjoy the music. Should have done that from the start.

Why go so loud that people needs earplugs? This just results in a dampened sound and pemanent loss of hearing. Why not give them best possible sound instead? Best possible sound and performance is what I expect when I pay for a ticket.

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 01:28 PM

yeah man you are wright..that is the point of the whole thing..tony explaind very well how it happend ...but now is unstopiblle...before this happend sound of the songs had more dynamics and more headroom..and it was more alive for cooperation with the liteners..emotions where more in the air becouse dyinamics..

Posted by: tonymiro Feb 12 2008, 01:28 PM

There was a recent article in El Pais (Spanish daily newspaper) that around 1/3rd of youths 14-30 yrs of age in major Spanish cities now suffer hearing loss due to the volume of recorded music played at clubs and the volumes at live gigs. I'd imagine that the figure is probably similar in most of the other 'developed nations'.

I agree with Blindwillie here - quality of sound to me is more important then 'loudness'.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 01:32 PM

scary stuff...I beleve that there is an factor of mass uses of I pod's..and all kind of mp3 players...

Posted by: tonymiro Feb 12 2008, 01:37 PM

Think your'e absolutely right there as well Nemanja. The SPLs in clubs and at gigs nowadays are very high and - at least outside of Europe - Ipods and MP3s may not be volume restricted and can cause hearing loss as well. Those sold in Europe are supposed to be volume restricted but sadly some owners bypass/remove the software lock to get the 'loudness' they're used to experiencing at gigs/clubs. With in ear 'phones that can be really bad.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 12 2008, 01:39 PM

thanks tony for great informations..helps allot:)

Posted by: blindwillie Feb 12 2008, 03:07 PM

I'm sad now

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 13 2008, 02:08 AM

I was too when I found out a bout this subject(becouse it is actually more expensive...bicouse all the limiters,.compressors..and every thing else that you need to by..) ...but I had no choice, had to play the game...so I acepted the things like there are....

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Feb 14 2008, 12:20 AM

You are right my friend, but what is the most important thing above all compressors limiters etc?

Posted by: Nemanja Feb 14 2008, 01:33 AM

Song!!!...............if you have no good song, no limiters,compresors,preamps,mic,Amek 9098i ...woud not be abel help you....
so...even if I have my own big studio one day...will never cut time off songwrighting....

Posted by: Muris Feb 14 2008, 03:57 AM