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Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 1 2019, 08:17 PM

I saw this on facebook and it made me think of Ken. I saw ken posted something similar on facebook and now another friend posted something that I found shocking. 2/3 of Millenials have no idea what this picture means. Before we blame the "indoctrination of the liberal elite through public school", let's realize that something this important should be shared by parents. It's not the job of the state to tell kids everything they need to know. Parents are doing a CRAP job of educating their own children evidently. If this image means nothing to most Millenials, it's a travesty of parenting imho.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/05/06/auschwitz/?fbclid=IwAR1-dVnyFPFc9U4F-_DVndtb0Det5hh5OZHcT8LARSgQu3vwZZJ0iG1vlek

Posted by: AK Rich Jun 1 2019, 08:42 PM

It most certainly IS the job of the state in public schools to teach something as historically significant as this. In fact there is a huge amount of important history that is not taught that most certainly should be. Maybe parents should talk about it with their kids as well but the real TRAVESTY is with the schools obviously. You do make a good argument for home schooling though which I believe consistently yields better results than public schools.

Posted by: Mertay Jun 1 2019, 10:23 PM

To be honest I also find it plain wrong about millenials who doesn't know about what the Holocaust is/was but unable to identify a German word with 1-2 pictures isn't something to go crazy about.

As said, not knowing at least important events in history that changed the whole world is simply wrong, but will say for our generation I feel the holocaust is over-sold. Maybe 100's of movies, even more documentaries...its as if some people gained too much money using those scars.

So that overselling even might have caused the new generation to lack interest, similar to why they are much less into politics.

Posted by: klasaine Jun 1 2019, 10:52 PM

Did you really just say that the Holocaust is oversold?
No wonder the Armenians are pissed.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 1 2019, 11:31 PM

I'd agree, it's part of their job to teach history. However, relying on the state is no excuse IMHO. In my experience, state school is NOT great. There are gaps in students education that stem from a bad educational system. The fact that 2/3 of millenials don't know about the Holocaust is a failure of education but I don't expect much from public education. I expect quite a bit from parents.

Posted by: Mertay Jun 1 2019, 11:32 PM

I disrespect how its used through media (exploited by media), not the event itself. Why can't they be 2 different things?

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 1 2019, 11:39 PM

It being "over sold" would indicate that everyone should know something about it right? It seems it's been undersold to millenials. Despite TV/movies/documentaries, etc. 2/3 of millentials can't identify auschwitz. Forget about the german letters. They can't recognize this place based on the picture. Not a few of them 2/3 of them. That's a travesty. Public education is not great in my country, so I would expect 2/3 of public school students to have huge gaps in education. It seems parents of millenials are no longer sharing important information with their children. It's like not being able to identify Martin Luther King Jr from a picture, or Ghandi from a picture, or the white house from a picture. It's such a huge part of world history and the history of the human race that it seems like it would merit being discussed by parent with children. My father discussed quite a bit about history with me over the years. learned far more from him than I ever learned in school. Perhaps the parents of millenials don't know the information to begin with. Our collective awareness of our own history seems to be diminishing.

How do you mean "exploited", can you give us an example of the Holocaust being exploited in media so we can understand what you are saying?

Posted by: Mertay Jun 1 2019, 11:54 PM

I don't feel education or awareness motivations when I watch something about it for a while now. The construction of images/ story-line are too much like watching an action or drama movie of some sort.

To me it has almost became a "franchise idea" which is almost guarantied to profit for the makers or companies. Thats why I use the term exploit; exploiting of the event and exploiting the peoples emotions in a disrespectful intention (money).

Posted by: klasaine Jun 2 2019, 12:06 AM

You are now parroting 'classic' anti-Semitic tropes.

Posted by: Mertay Jun 2 2019, 12:46 AM

You might remember almost 3 years ago we had a coup de at in Turkey. It was no holocaust by many comparisons, but people died brutally and was bad to say the least.

So after that they started naming places after the event, media kept on going (news, talk-shows, documentaries, movies...each production lead to a bigger one (!), then politicians used it on their campaigns...so in time this "overselling" today lead people (who actually witnessed the event) disconnected/un-interested.

It simply turned into something else than what it should have been, maybe the word is tabu (?). Likely the thing that caused Kris to be expelled from Kemper forums because he used images of WW2 in his music video, which I feel is happening to me right now...

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 2 2019, 08:36 AM

I think we are talking about different things? I was just saying it's sad that millenials have no idea what a picture of the most notorious concentration camp in history looks like. It seems that just that demographic has trouble recognizing the image. It's a failure of education but also a failure of parenting imho. Really important stuff should be taught by parents to their children imho. Slavery, the Holocaust, etc. Otherwise, kids grow up with huge gaps in their awareness of the world.

You may have a bit of a skewed view on this simply from cultural/regional issues. So it may just be coming off a bit wrong from a lack of intercultural understanding.

I don't think anyone is trying to expell you from GMC though? Has anyone said they were going to expell you from here?

Posted by: Mertay Jun 2 2019, 10:18 AM

Yes and my comment was meant to be connected to the lack of knowledge from millennials in this study. Reasons can be various, one and probably most troubling is I believe there might a lack of interest from their side to the subject, as you said after all those movies etc. and having the luxury of internet. It's easy to google but for some reason they don't and that also must be investigated, right?

Then I gave some opinions and even an example from my experience on my previous post as where the un-interest is coming from. Point being though the event is marked to history, how its understood, emotionally absorbed/reflected etc. by next generations (or even 3 years later) can be quite different from the previous. You blamed education system, I blamed media its simple as that.

And yes (connected to media argument) I also pointed out some people gained ridiculous money or political interest to their advantage from this horrible event even today. Its a fact not an opinion, my fault was I thought it was digested enough to be argued (as in perspectives, not the matter itself ofcourse). Now I realize some things with some people cannot be argued for a different perspective as they take it as an attack immediately, can be religion/carrying gun/climate change/evolution etc. apparently this is one of them. Emotion dominating logic too soon and strongly to have a chance of a proper conversation.

What I mean of arguing perspectives by example; You may want to discuss Ramadan or hijab with a muslim, without the intention of arguing islam. But they take it as you're attacking islam... in my case I tried to discuss media intentions.

I wasn't pointing out expelling; but the reflex that attacked Kris. He got a bit out of the box (for a German) with no bad intention, then a "reflex" from the other side attacked him without much listening or consideration trying to wear his shoes on the matter. Notice I've been attacked 2 times in this topic already, me keeping it cool doesn't mean they weren't offending you know... But out of respect I'm still trying to give a proper explanation.

And yes; Turkey was one of the few countries that managed that war without a nose bleed, its only natural my point of view not having the same emotional connection to you guys but I pointed out several times I'm not trying to disrespect.

Posted by: klasaine Jun 2 2019, 02:45 PM

Nobody makes ridiculous money or achieves political gain from the holocaust.
Here, I'll give an opposite example.
One of the strongest modern films about the Holocaust is Steven Spielberg's "Schindler's List". After all the studio (Universal) bills were paid, all the profit in perpetuity goes to the USC (university of southern California) Shoah foundation. Spielberg took no salary at all from the film.

*The film was low-budget by Hollywood film standards, only $22 million total. It paid for itself in the first week's release. Current gross - $97 million, so $75 million given to the Shoah Foundation ... https://sfi.usc.edu/about

Posted by: Mertay Jun 2 2019, 04:17 PM

C'mon thats just one example and add TV show/documentary's to it the list is likely endless, its not mandatory to donate if subject is used isn't it? And you can't be believing every politicians every speech since the war ended (specially including campaign speeches) was from the bottom of their heart (as likely most of those speeches were written by their staff).

Of-course realistically some money has to be gained but where's the line? apparently no one seems to ask that question.

Edit; Go back enough in time and no one would believe a priest would steal money from church or something worse, but stuff like these happen every week if not day in my country and USA too, shows like family guy etc. even make fun of these. For a believer, their religion is just as important as the holocaust but if turned a blind eye things can be corrupt.

Connecting to the topic, who knows maybe millennials feel same or similar to my argument regarding the media aspect to it but they can't be blamed for being scared to talk about it. As said, the lack of interest is frightening but they shouldn't be the ones to blame.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 2 2019, 10:44 PM

Well, the media is not responsible for the education of young people. That falls to the education system and parents. So while the media can be blamed for all sorts of things, blaming them for this seems a bit beside the point since it's not their job to educate our young people on important issues. Our education system seems to have failed badly, (as rich pointed out it is there job to at least try to educate our young people) and parents have failed badly (they are the ones ultimately responsible for their children, more so than any state based institution).
Having said that, the media in general is a business and they act like one. They need eyeballs as that translates to money. As far as their approach, debates range far and wide. But they are not the ones responsible here so I'm willing to give them a pass on this one.
I hope you dont' feel personallly attacked here. I read the thread again and I didn't see any personal attacks? Name calling, etc. I'm sure none was intended. This seems a pretty calm discussion?

Posted by: klasaine Jun 2 2019, 11:38 PM

This is the last thing I'm gonna say on this topic ...

There is no one making money off the Holocaust except for maybe the anti-Semitic vermin that have lately been crawling out from under their rocks to spread vile and malicious lies about said topic and said people.
Yes, nationalistic scapegoating is, once again, becoming big business.
Try not to buy into it.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 3 2019, 12:45 AM

Ken is spot on here IMHO. Those making the most out of the recent antisemitic/anti immigrant wave are the "Nationalists" (anti-immigrant/proto fascist) who have come to power in ITALY and come to power in FRANCE. It's these folks that seem to be making profit off of the suffering of others. Much more so than any media company.

The anti immigrant/racist "Far Right League" won big in the recent Italian Election.

In france, the anti immigrant/nationalist party (national front) has long been accused of racism/antisemitism. Recently the "Yellow Vest " moviement in france recently has been coopted by anti semitic rabble rousers.

across europe there has been a huge spike in antisemitic attacks and a rise in anti immigrant fervor. It's all very disturbing.




The original reason I brought up this study about millenials not being able to recognize a concentration camp is that we seem to be moving back toward the same type of sick thinking that led to it in the first place.

Posted by: verciazghra Jun 3 2019, 02:02 AM

Honestly though, I've heard those words before but I would never be able to link them specifically to Auschwitz more just generally as a phrase thrown around in WWII, and I've been to both Auschwitz and Dachau in person. I'm probably one of the most anti-racist and anti-nazi people you'll find. I mostly remember the gas-chambers and feelings of hatred, most of the times I just try to forget that people can be that grim toward others.

I do agree though, people should be taught about these things.


Thanks for sharing this.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 3 2019, 05:50 AM

It's not knowing what the picture of that concentration camp is and that 2/3 of millienials can't identify it that made me stop and read. My Dad taught me more about history than I ever learned in school. That tradition seems to have faded a bit. I hope the tradition makes a comeback

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 3 2019, 06:37 AM

I must admit I find it extremely scary to see history repeat itself with antisemitism seemingly on the rise, even in Germany..!

I do find there is a lack of effective reminders of the holocaust of World War II - so I think it would be great if history telling could find its way into modern popular culture.

If we can forget about what might be the most organised evil act in modern times, I assume everything else, including the Armenian Genocide, US slavery - etc will be totally lost.

Posted by: klasaine Jun 3 2019, 02:40 PM

It's why we Jews say "never forget".

Maybe that band Sabaton needs to make a Holocaust album. Don't worry, they won't make a 'profit' off of it as no buys music anymore.

Posted by: Mertay Jun 3 2019, 03:10 PM

My cousin's band covered a song which was written about it (original song also in Turkish), yeah it didn't sell well but the fans did like it.



off topic; It won't be sincere if it comes from me but do make atleast a websearch on why Turkey refers the event as a tragedy instead of a holocaust and why some countries don't accept it as holocaust. I'll share a quick info which Armenians also agree on; very few actually died cause of a person or a weapon...

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 4 2019, 03:50 AM

I was just reading about Turkey and Denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's evidently a thing in Turkey to just deny that 1.5 million people were killed by the ottomans. Who knew? Everywhere else in the world it's just a historical fact. It's actually against the law in some countries to call it anything but Genocide.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/03/09/why-does-turkey-continue-deny-armenian-genocide/rV7dcOXxrDb7wz01AoXgZM/story.html
There are wads of sources on this. It's become nearly part of Turkish culture to just deny it almost ever happened.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/world/europe/turkeys-century-of-denial-about-an-armenian-genocide.html

And speaking of profiting...Many of the leaders of the new Turkish republic — but not Ataturk — were primary architects of the genocide, and some grew rich off the confiscation of Armenian properties.
Same way the Nazis funded themselves by confiscating all Jewish money/property/etc. when Jews were declared no longer to be Citizens and bereft of any rights under statehood.
My Dad never mentioned this as I don't think he knew about it. I didn't
know much about it til I googled it. We have blood on our hands as well.We don't call it a "genocide" but we did wipe out nearly 10 million Native Americanswhen we sorta showed up and declared this "our land", then we started making laws about who could legally enter "our land". Geesh. So there is plenty of blame to go around.Nobody here calls this a 'genocide", we just refer to it as our "Manifest Destiny". It sounds much more palatable.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 4 2019, 07:55 AM

Yes that's a very good idea - it wouldn't surprise me since they are constantly touching upon the topic. For example they do have the track "Inmate 4859" which talks about Auschwitz.

I have also done one myself. It took me more than a month to get mentally stable after researching for the video - so I don't see myself to doing it again in the near future:

Posted by: Mertay Jun 4 2019, 10:05 AM

Term Genoside legally was established during (or after, must check) WW2. The Holocaust was simply too extreme to be considered to justify as a "mass killing" so a term had to be determined universally so it would never happen again. If a country commits genocide today, they would have to compensate much more than simply losing a war they started.

So if you confuse the term "genocide" as "mass killing", then pretty much every nation in the world would be responsible historically for something they did. It must be strictly aimed to eliminate a race or specific group of people (not about a number either) to cause a genocide, which can bring an argument to the table if that was really the motivation of the killers (Americans vs native Indians or Ottoman vs Armenians).

The most recent example of Genocide I know of; When isis progressed further into Syria, they deliberately captured a group of people calling themselves "yezidi" (I don't know the english name of them) not allowing them to reach the Turkish boarder when trying to escape.

Yezidi's are comparable to a typical tribe, they have their own language, religion and population not greater than 1000's. They probably hated them the most, even more than Americans cause they didn't believe in 1 of the 3 great religions. Elderes were killed immediatly, young were killed if they didn't accept to change religion+identity, children/woman were either married or found an alternate family to live with...So it wasn't "civilian massacre" either which is a different level of war crime, isis goal was to exterminate a culture complete from history.

edit;

This for example is plain wrong, of-course Turkey recognizes their death. This is why I recommend reading something that reflects both sides of opinions objectively, cause its easy to bump into the smell of anti-turk/muslim ideology behind too...

Posted by: PosterBoy Jun 4 2019, 01:23 PM

I'm 45 andI have never seen that picture before, that I can recall. That doesn't mean I don't know about/ read Auschwitz, the holocaust and the horrors that went on there.

Posted by: Adam Jun 4 2019, 03:50 PM

We were taken there on a school trip. Once in primary school and once in middle school. Half of the class felt uneasy walking there and 4 kids, me included, nearly fainted seeing horrors of that place.

In my opinion, it's about forgiving but not forgetting. And about learning lesson from others' mistakes. Those who committed these atrocities are long gone and can't be put to justice in any way. Same goes for Poland who suffered from WWII the most, since we were the reason it broke out in the first place. The Nazi Germans demolished our land, most notably beautiful Warsaw city and right after the war the Soviets stole whatever valuable was still left. Yet radical right wing people are still yapping about how the Germany owes us the war reparations, apparently never paid. Looking back at the history, the armies often destroyed the lands they invaded. Ancient Greece, Macedonia, Egypt, Persia, Rome, Attila, Cortes, Karl XII, the Europe's invasions in Northern America or the Soviets' genocide of the military and academics of Poland. WWII is no different and it's natural for the invaders to oppress and destroy the people they consider troublesome. Auschwitz is relatively modern and because the Third Reich lost the war, they had no chance to remove its traces from existence, so it's a genocide that could be recorded in great detail but it certainly wasn't the first one. The USA ruined Japan with just 2 nukes and that hit everyone in range, instead of hitting a specific group of people (like the military or industrial zones).

In my opinion, we should keep in mind what happened and learn our lesson. My friend's grandfather survived in Auschwitz and moved to Serbia to start a family. He kept saying that we can't change the past but we can shape our future. Personally I believe in the dialogue and diplomacy because holding grudges and seeking vengeance won't get us anywhere but will lead to repeating the mistakes of the past. Talking to each other causes us to understand each other's point of view, culture, etc. War chooses no nation. Conflict comes from misunderstanding and lack of mutual communication. My mom used to say when I and my brother were younger and had quarrels that the wiser one should give up. Now that I'm older I know that this can be applied to more than just regular siblings' fights.

Sabaton made a song about Auschwitz if anyone's interesting:



One of the reasons the world heard about it was Witold Pilecki, a soldier that agreed to get sent there, gather detailed intel on the proceedings and organize the resistance within the camp.
A Polish patriotic band made a song about WWII and among other topics, Cavalry Captain Pilecki. I couldn't find a version with English subs but maybe you'll like it nonetheless

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 6 2019, 02:06 AM

I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) . It's not anti musilim or anti turk. It's just a news paper. Here is a clip.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/world/europe/turkeys-century-of-denial-about-an-armenian-genocide.html
Worried that the Christian Armenian population was planning to align with Russia, a primary enemy of the Ottoman Turks, officials embarked on what historians have called the first genocide of the 20th century: Nearly 1.5 million Armenians were killed, some in massacres like the one here, others in forced marches to the Syrian desert that left them starved to death.

The genocide was the greatest atrocity of the Great War. It also remains that conflict’s most bitterly contested legacy, having been met by the Turkish authorities with 100 years of silence and denial. For surviving Armenians and their descendants, the genocide became a central marker of their identity, the psychic wounds passed through generations.

It's just a matter of historical record and yet for some reason, parts of the Turkish Government and even Turkish educational system sorta act like those people just died by themselves. It's somewhat similar to Southerners trying to deny that we killed scores upon scores of Slaves or denying that we killed millions of indians. Some people still deny all of it for various reasons. Some people deny that nazis killed 6 million jews. There is plenty of Denial to go around

I agree. We should be aware of our history as the human race. Even when that history is repulsive. I'm a white, southern, male. My great grandparents lived in a time when blatant racism and homophobia were just normal. Even today the scars of hate are still with us here in the south. Many here feel that the Civil war is not over and that blacks should be kept separate and not allowed to marry whites. It's sad.

I guess the term "attempted Genocide" fits Mertays definition more closely as the Nazis didn't succeed in killing every jew in Europe, just most of them. It's a sickening part of our past as citizens of this little planet. Slavery is also sickening. But we should teach our young people about these things in the home IMHO. They are part of who we are.



Wow! Never seen this one before and it's great!! Im sorry to hear that creating it was so uspetting but I can understand it. I was going to suggest we all work on some sort of musical project that could raise awareness of imporant things in history like the Holocaust, Slavery, etc. There is so much un truth on youtube about these issues. It would be good to put some real truth forward. If you ever think you are up for it, please elet me know

Posted by: jstcrsn Jun 6 2019, 03:56 AM

you Know you pushed to keep political discussion of this website , you should stop saying on thing and doing another, about throwing in a cheap little dig about fox being antisemitic when they were one of the few news organization that stood with Trump's decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem even though the three presidents before trump said they would , when Trump actually moved it

Posted by: Mertay Jun 6 2019, 08:19 AM

I'll write something here on the Turkish view of the incident from my knowledge. It's more complicated (historically) than most assumes.

To keep things interesting for now; Did you know the first prime minister of Armenia Kacaznuni refused (proven through Russian archives) the incident of being a Genocide? or; Turkey is ready to compensate for anything (mass killing, civilian crime...) other than genocide, because only if accepted genocide then the Armenians will not only get compensation but a possibility of getting land from Turkey too.

By the way, yesterday on youtube blog https://youtube.googleblog.com

Removing more hateful and supremacist content from YouTube
YouTube has always had rules of the road, including a longstanding policy against hate speech. In 2017, we introduced a tougher stance towards videos with supremacist content, including limiting recommendations and features like comments and the ability to share the video. This step dramatically reduced views to these videos (on average 80%). Today, we're taking another step in our hate speech policy by specifically prohibiting videos alleging that a group is superior in order to justify discrimination, segregation or exclusion based on qualities like age, gender, race, caste, religion, sexual orientation or veteran status. This would include, for example, videos that promote or glorify Nazi ideology, which is inherently discriminatory. Finally, we will remove content denying that well-documented violent events, like the Holocaust or the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary, took place.
We recognize some of this content has value to researchers and NGOs looking to understand hate in order to combat it, and we are exploring options to make it available to them in the future. And as always, context matters, so some videos could remain up because they discuss topics like pending legislation, aim to condemn or expose hate, or provide analysis of current events. We will begin enforcing this updated policy today; however, it will take time for our systems to fully ramp up and we’ll be gradually expanding coverage over the next several months.

Posted by: klasaine Jun 6 2019, 02:41 PM

Regarding Jerusalem.

West Jerusalem has been the official 'governmental' capital of Israel since 1948.
Most countries of the world have their embassies in Tel Aviv-Yafo; the de-facto capital since 1948 because Jerusalem has been disputed as that capitol since 1948 by the UN and 90% of the world's countries as well as various Israeli Prime Ministers over the last 70+ years.

The U.S. embassy in Israel is located in Tel Aviv, but less well known is that the U.S. consulate-general is in Jerusalem, just around the corner from the Prime Minister’s residence (Talpiot neighborhood), and it handles diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority. It is one of nine consulates-general in Jerusalem, all of which serve the same purpose. Five of them: the UK, Turkey, Belgium, Spain and Sweden are in eastern Jerusalem. The consulates-general of the US, France, Italy, and Greece are in western Jerusalem. The European Union also has a representative office in eastern Jerusalem, and the Holy See has an Apostolic Nunciature there.

None of the countries that have consulates in Jerusalem recognize Israeli or Palestinian sovereignty over the city. Consequently, their official embassies remain in Tel Aviv. Their consulates in Jerusalem are, almost uniquely, accredited to no state.

It's a very very nuanced situation.
As of last year, the US merged it's embassy with it's consulate-general office in Jerusalem. This has effectively cut off much of the Israeli/Palestinian/US diplomacy and political interaction, naturally fomenting more frustration and strife. Gee, who'd a thunk it.

Posted by: AK Rich Jun 6 2019, 07:15 PM

Just for some balance because I really don't want to enter into another big political debate here.
Maybe the NYT is respected by some, but to others, like half the country or more, they are considered a propaganda mill not fit to line the bottom of a bird cage. And in fact, the NYT has a history of antisemitism both real and obvious, or perceived.
As recently as April this year. The NYT published a cartoon that was widely condemned as antisemitic, and was apologized for but then turned around within the span of a week or two published another that received the same backlash as the first. Those are just 2 real examples and I believe I could dig up more.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/28/business/ny-times-anti-semitic-cartoon.html
https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/04/30/new-york-times-under-fire-after-publishing-a-second-anti-semitic-cartoon/

The perceived examples go back to the time when the Holocaust was actually occurring. and although they did report on it, the NYT was allegedly either under reporting, downplaying or omitting important details about what was actually happening at the time, suppressing information that the NYT most certainly would have had considering the size and scope of the news organization.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/10903
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/14/news/150th-anniversary-1851-2001-turning-away-from-the-holocaust.html

As far as Fox news goes. I do not believe they can be associated in any way with antisemitism or a far right ideology and I also don't believe you can show examples of either.
If you follow any news from Fox you would find that their coverage is actually quite balanced, and I am not talking about op/eds which are indistinguishable from news on most other news outlets in the country that have also become propaganda mills for progressives and the Democrat party, which by the way has at least two members of congress that have expressed antisemitic views recently.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 6 2019, 09:45 PM

Easy there, I did NOT say Fox was Anti Semitic. Please re read the post I was talking about people who slam the New York Times. It's quite simply the best paper we have in print. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). Yet I hear Fox complaining about them, and I hear anti semitic smears against the times such as "jews run the press". I'm not conflating the two.

This post is about history. Not politics. It's true that it's political history, but it's not talking politics. No mention of policy, no mention of trump, dems, repubs, etc. Started talking about concentration camps and genocide. Not talking policy and politics.

I was trying not to get in to politics. This thread was about history. But since you asked for an example... I am taken aback that you don't think FOX is Far Right wing. They define Far Right wing. here is an artiicle on each point for ya. The New York Times is still the most respected newspaper in the country. Always has been. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). People who don't like the times usually don't like it because they do actual journalism. Unlike say, Fox, who does punditry.I do follow fox news and it's the most unbalanced, biased, propogandized news source currently available on a cable or broadcast. It's little more than our version of Russia Today. To wit....
Anti semitism and Fox newshttps://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/11/fox-keeps-pushing-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theory-motivated-tree-life-shooter/223423
Far Right Wing Propaganda and Fox newshttps://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-news-trump-propaganda-tom-rosenstiel

None of the sources I mention will have much impact though as I've noticed folks that like Fox just like it for what it is and that's fine.

But again, this thread was about HISTORY. About the picture of a notorious concentration camp and the fact that 2/3 of young folks could not recognize the image. I found that disturbing. It's that headline that got me to read the article in the first place The thread has been taken far afield from the original post which was just about millenials not knowing what a certain historical image represented.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jun 6 2019, 10:05 PM

I think the left ( NYT) and such have as much propaganda as fox , Racheal madaw and CNN have practically held trial on Russia gate and yet mueleer's report said there was No colluding with Russia to swing the election,

and bvy the way tucker carlson agreed with some of the plans of Pocahontas

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 6 2019, 11:21 PM

The NYT is not "The Left". Its' just the best newspaper in the united states. Simple as that. It is critical of those on "The Left" and "The Right". That's what balanced Journalism does. It doesn't favor one over the other. The Pulitzer prize is NOT given out to publications of propaganda. Only to the best Journalistic publications in print. The facts speak for themselves. It's that simple. I'm not going to get sucked in to a political romp about issues that have nothing to do with this threads OP. I didn't mention Mueller/Collusion. You did. I'm not diving in to that.


But we are off topic here. Let's get back to History.

Posted by: AK Rich Jun 7 2019, 01:40 AM

Not sure how you get to Fox news being antisemitic because Hannity and Beck, who aren't journalists by the way, have speculated about 1 man, George Soros, who just happens to be Jewish, may be funding these migrant caravans. That's the best you've got? Lou Dobbs is a commentator as well and not a journalist but again, he is speculating about 1 man being behind the funding of these caravans and not the Jewish people as a whole. This theory is entirely plausible since Soros has stirred stuff like this up before in other countries.
It's completely obvious that someone or group is funding and organizing these caravans.
One more thing speaking of propaganda, you are correct about your sources. Media Matters and Vox have absolutely no credibility as reputable journalism but they are consistent. Consistently wrong at the end of the day if you look at their track record, especially over the last few years.
By the way. I don't watch Lou Dobbs or Hannity or even Fox news. I only read news articles online from not only Fox but many other news outlets, as much as I can stand anyways.
Fox news may have a slant to the right but if anyone truly believes that Fox news is somehow far right, it is only because of how far out in left field they are standing. Simply being conservative does not make anyone far right. It is a ridiculous notion.
Sorry to go off topic but your claims couldn't be left unchallenged.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jun 7 2019, 02:29 AM

here is a list of that wonderful pulitzers , they used to do a good job , but with a list like this it is no wonder they were bought a few years back and have constantly been in the red . It has become a joke there are enough categories so almost everymajor news walks away with one and if this is the best they have done in the last 20 years , well ?
2001:The New York Times, for national reporting, for its compelling and memorable series exploring racial experiences and attitudes across contemporary America. David Cay Johnston, beat reporting, for his penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in the U.S. tax code, which was instrumental in bringing about reforms.
2002: The New York Times, for public service, for "A Nation Challenged," a daily special section covering the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, the war in Afghanistan and America's campaign against terrorism. The section, which included biographical sketches of the victims, also appeared online; The New York Times, for its informed and detailed reporting that profiled the global terrorism network and the threats it posed, a distinguished example of explanatory reporting; The New York Times, for its photographs chronicling the pain and the perseverance of people enduring protracted conflict in Afghanistan and Pakistan, a distinguished example of feature photography; The New York Times, for its consistently outstanding photographic coverage of the terrorist attack on New York City and its aftermath, a distinguished example of breaking news photography; Gretchen Morgenson, for her trenchant and incisive Wall Street coverage, a distinguished example of beat reporting; Barry Bearak, for his deeply affecting and illuminating coverage of daily life in war-torn Afghanistan, a distinguished example of reporting on international affairs; Thomas Friedman, for his clarity of vision, based on extensive reporting, in commenting on the worldwide impact of the terrorist threat.
2003: Clifford J. Levy, for investigative reporting, for his "Broken Homes" series that exposed the abuse of mentally ill adults in state-regulated homes.
2004: The New York Times, for public service, for its series written by David Barstow and Lowell Bergman that examined death and injury among American workers and exposed employers who break basic safety rules.
2005: Walt Bogdanich, for national reporting, for his investigative series about the corporate cover-up of responsibility for fatal accidents at railway crossings.
2006: Nicholas D. Kristof for commentary on bringing the genocide in Darfur to the world's attention; Joseph Kahn and Jim Yardley for international reporting for their examination of China's legal system; James Risen and Eric Lichtblau for national reporting for their coverage of the United States' government's secret eavesdropping program.
2007: Andrea Elliott for feature writing for coverage of an immigrant imam striving to serve his faithful in America.
2008: Amy Harmon for explanatory reporting on the social impact of genetic tests; Walt Bogdanich and Jake Hooker for investigative reporting on how contaminated ingredients from China make their way into consumer goods, including medicine.
2009: David Barstow for his tenacious reporting that revealed how some retired generals, working as radio and television analysts, had been co-opted by the Pentagon to make its case for the war in Iraq, and how many of them also had undisclosed ties to companies that benefited from policies they defended.
2010s
2010: Michael Moss, in Explanatory Reporting, for an investigative feature on food safety (e.g., contaminated meat); Matt Richtel, in National Reporting, for a series on the dangers of distracted driving; Sheri Fink of ProPublica in collaboration with The New York Times Magazine, in Investigative Reporting, for “The Deadly Choices At Memorial” about Hurricane Katrina survivors (award shared with the Philadelphia Daily News).[4][5]
2011: Clifford J. Levy and Ellen Barry, in International Reporting, for their “Above the Law” series, which examined abuse of power in Russia, showing how authorities had jailed, beaten or harassed citizens who opposed them; and David Leonhardt, in Commentary, for his weekly column “Economic Scene” which offered perspectives on the formidable problems confronting America, from creating jobs to recalibrating tax rates.[6]
2012: David Kocieniewski, in Explanatory Reporting, for his series on tax avoidance; and Jeffrey Gettleman, in International Reporting, for his reports on famine and conflict in East Africa.[7][8]
2013: David Barstow and Alejandra Xanic von Bertrab, in Investigative Reporting, for describing bribery by Walmart in Mexico; New York Times staff, in Explanatory Reporting, for examining global business practices of Apple Inc. and other technology companies; David Barboza, in International Reporting, for exposing corruption in the Chinese government; and John Branch, in Feature Writing, for "Snow Fall," a multimedia presentation about avalanches.[9]
2014: Tyler Hicks, in Breaking News Photography, for his compelling pictures that showed skill and bravery in documenting the unfolding terrorist attack at Westgate mall in Kenya; Josh Haner, in Feature Photography, for his moving essay on a Boston Marathon bomb blast victim who lost most of both legs and now is painfully rebuilding his life[10]
2015: Eric Lipton, in Investigative Reporting, for reporting that showed how the influence of lobbyists can sway congressional leaders and state attorneys general, slanting justice toward the wealthy and connected; New York Times staff, in International Reporting, for courageous front-line reporting and vivid human stories on Ebola in Africa, engaging the public with the scope and details of the outbreak while holding authorities accountable; Daniel Berehulak, in Feature Photography, for his gripping, courageous photographs of the Ebola epidemic in West Africa[11]
2016: Tyler Hicks, Mauricio Lima, Sergey Ponomarev and Daniel Etter for breaking news photography for coverage of the ongoing migrant crisis in Europe and the Middle East, and Alissa Rubin for international reporting for her coverage of the lives of women and girls in Afghanistan including the horrific murder of young Afghan woman who was beaten to death by a mob after being falsely accused of burning a Quran. John Woo and Adam Ellick produced a powerful accompanying video about the murder.[12]
2017: C.J. Chivers, in Feature Writing, for showing, through an artful accumulation of fact and detail, that a Marine’s postwar descent into violence reflected neither the actions of a simple criminal nor a stereotypical case of PTSD.
2017: The New York Times staff, in International Reporting, for agenda-setting reporting on Vladimir Putin’s efforts to project Russia’s power abroad, revealing techniques that included assassination, online harassment and the planting of incriminating evidence on opponents.
2017: Daniel Berehulak, in Breaking News Photography, for powerful storytelling through images published in The New York Times showing the callous disregard for human life in the Philippines brought about by a government assault on drug dealers and users. (Moved into this category from Feature Photography by the nominating jury.)
2018: Jodi Kantor, Megan Twohey, Emily Steel, and Michael S. Schmidt in Public Service, for "explosive, impactful journalism that exposed powerful and wealthy sexual predators, including allegations against one of Hollywood’s most influential producers, bringing them to account for long-suppressed allegations of coercion, brutality and victim silencing, thus spurring a worldwide reckoning about sexual abuse of women." (Received jointly with Ronan Farrow of "The New Yorker".) [13]
2018: Staff, in National Reporting, for "deeply sourced, relentlessly reported coverage in the public interest that dramatically furthered the nation’s understanding of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and its connections to the Trump campaign, the President-elect’s transition team and his eventual administration." (Received jointly with the Washington Post.)[13]
2018: Jake Halpern and Michael Sloan, in Editorial Cartooning, for "an emotionally powerful series, told in graphic narrative form, that chronicled the daily struggles of a real-life family of refugees and its fear of deportation."[13]
2019: David Barstow, Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, in Explanatory Reporting, for "an exhaustive 18-month investigation of President Donald Trump’s finances that debunked his claims of self-made wealth and revealed a business empire riddled with tax dodges."[14]
2019: Brent Staples, in Editorial Writing, for "editorials written with extraordinary moral clarity that charted the racial fault lines in the United States at a polarizing moment in the nation’s history."[14]

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 7 2019, 04:46 AM

Sigh. Again. Never said fox news is Anti semitic. I'll say it again
I NEVER SAID FOX NEWS IS ANTI SEMITIC. Please go back and re read the post. Here is the text from said post just so you can read it.

I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) . It's not anti musilim or anti turk. It's just a news paper. Here is a clip.


Notice that I didn't say that Fox is anti semitic. One a request was made to show an example of Fox Behaving in an anti semitic manner, I simply provided a link to such an example. There are plenty of them. I'm not going to keep sharing examples because there's no point. If you can't recognize the New York Times (Has won more Pulitzer Prizes than any Paper ever) as an authoritative source, then there is no source I can provide you with that you'd accept. That's on you though. Not me. But again that was NEVER my point never my assertion. That's something that you and carson accused me of saying which I never actually said. Now we have a string of posts of you two accusing me of saying something which I never said and we are way off topic. Hopefully this wraps that up.
Sadly, yes Fox news is far right by any standard or measure.Here is a handy chart by the university of Michigan which breaks it down. Fox is about as far right MSNBC is far left. This is a breakdown by a highly respected research institution, but if you can reject NYT as a source, then you probably will reject U Mich as well, and I guess only take Fox News as Gospel?

Attacking the credibility of the Pulitzer prize is a new one. It's a weak argument to be sure, but it's new to me to see that argument. Despite what you may think the Pulitzer is still the highest award in the field of Journalism. Always has been such. So yeah, that's just not gonna hold water. It's still the highest award given for journalism. Simple as that.



IN BRIEF:

~No I never said fox was anti semitic. See above.
~Yes the Pulitzer Prize is the highest award in the field of Journalism. If you don't like the NYT, you have to blame Pulitizer I guess It's weak, but it's all that's left.
~Yes Fox news is a Far right propaganda outlet just as much as MSNBC is a left wing propaganda outlet It's not legitimate news. It's punditry.


Having said that, if you wanna watch fox, great. if you wanna watch MSNBC great. Doesn't matter. They are what they are. I watch both.
Can we refocus back to History now?

Posted by: klasaine Jun 7 2019, 05:22 AM

Wow, you all buy into the Soros thing.

OK.
Back to gear and soloing.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jun 7 2019, 05:45 AM

just shared a link I don't buy in though. Agreed back to soloing!!! Still say parents should talk to kids about the holocaust.
Some folks think the earth is flat, some folks think the moon landing was fake. Some folks think the Holocaust never happened. It takes all kinds to fill up a bus.

Posted by: AK Rich Jun 7 2019, 08:34 AM

Maybe you didn't exactly say that Fox was antisemitic but when you lump these things together like this (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) I think it is a reasonable assumption that you believe that they are. And if you weren't saying it, why would you try to show an example unless that is what you believe and really were saying without exactly saying it? Your example fails by the way and it is worth noting the source of your example, Media Matters, is financed in part by George Soros indirectly from the Democracy Alliance of which he is a founding member.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Matters_for_America

I like your chart too but I didn't see anything on there about anyone being labeled far right. But whats even more interesting , and maybe you overlooked it but The NYT is set further left of center than Fox is set to the right of center. The 0 on the chart indicates the center. Actually the NYT is set more than twice as far to the left of center (about 2 1/2 times further actually) than Fox is set to the right of center and much further left than MSNBC. So I guess that makes the NYT far far far left by your standards. Right? Sarcasm, sorry.
Anyway that chart isn't a ranking of the news sources themselves but a ranking of the ideology of the people who get their news from one of the listed sources, some of which aren't even news sources like the Daily Show or the Hannity show for example.
Did you even read it?

Posted by: Mertay Jun 7 2019, 08:58 AM

Oh we got into Media again

When I was 10, Turkey had only 2-3 tv channels owned by the government. I pretty much witnessed how private networks came to be and how they slided to a political side.

Today I recommend watching 3 tv channels (can be newspaper too) to get a proper idea for something. 1 you favor politically, 1 you hate and the other struggling to play on both sides. Since thats almost impossible in an active daily life, common sense and suspicion has to be the judge on where you feel the corners of the truth have been shaped.

Posted by: AK Rich Jun 7 2019, 09:42 AM

+1 Mertay. This approach is necessary if you want to be fully informed on the issues, especially politics. I actually look at many more than 3 since there are so many.


If you are referring to me among others (you all)? I never said or implied that I bought into anything about Soros. Only that some speculation about him supporting migrant caravans is plausible given his history and support for open borders/open society to elaborate a bit more on what I had posted. If you weren't referring to me, then never mind. My bad.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 7 2019, 09:52 PM

I guess this one has gotten into sensitive territory - so I will close it to stay on the topic of guitar or at least non-polemic topics!