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Posted by: JOhn Jun 17 2007, 08:32 AM

Im having problems when doing sweeps with that rolling finger thing over the strings.

How am i supposed to roll it and still keep it clean? I don't even know if im doing it right i just place my finger over all the strings and kinda move it back muting the strings already played with the right hand with out really doing anything to the sound.

Can some one please tell me how to do it its hard

Posted by: mattacuk Jun 17 2007, 09:07 AM

I too had issues with this shape when i first started it. But trust me, with hours of metronome practice it just becomes automatic. Really, i thought i would never get it ! but becomes second nature after a while.

First tip i would give is to play extremely slowly. Say 50bps on the metronome. Its hard to explain the roll action in text. But Herman Li does a pretty good job here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXLHtQicNBE

make sure your playing 6-tuplets to the metronome to keep it even.

count out loud 1-2-3-4-5-6 1-2-3-4-5-6

Posted by: JOhn Jun 17 2007, 09:53 AM

awesome i now i might have a chance in doing the rolling thing

Also do you have any good patterns to practice?
Because right now iv just been doing the sweep picking lessons here pretty good but when it gets to a roll it sounds bad.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jun 17 2007, 10:01 AM

Topic edited - watch you language!

Posted by: fkalich Jun 17 2007, 12:08 PM

I agree with what you say. However, while Li seems personable enough, he does not explain it as well as pavel does. if you look at the lessons and some forum threads this horse have been beaten to death.

Some say that Moses actually had a third tablet that had all the rules shredders must follow, but three stone tablets were to heavy too carry down the mountain so he left that one with the intent to come back and get it later. When he returned the tablet was gone, some say the Gypsies took it. But whatever the case, there are no known commandments which, if not followed while shredding, will result in your tongue turning to fire.

I follow the rules of (1) never attempting to finger more than two adjacent strings with the same finger on a sweep when it involves an upstroke and (2) never fretting more than one of the two strings at a time. This is effectively what rolling your finger is, but it is a bit different depending on what finger you are using, and where you are on the fretboard.

But to me, the most important thing is to hear your notes all ringing out clearly, in a really perfect rhythm. I hear a lot of guys, where when they speed it up, the quality of the sweeps really suffers, you don't hear the notes all ringing out in the prescribed rhythm once they speed up. A person needs to listen to themselves, and not kid themselves. Every note should stand out clearly, and in perfect rhythm, no exceptions, or one should slow down until they can accomplish that. in my opinion.

There is a competition for speed, but rhythm is always much much more important to just about any listening audience, in terms of what they feel sounds good. to me rhythm is most of it, and very difficult to master, especially at speed.

btw, i appreciate you keeping the threads clean Kris.

Posted by: Robin Jun 17 2007, 12:24 PM

The only answer I got for this is: practice alot and slow. I also hated that "rolling" thing when I started practicing sweeping, felt like my finger was gonna break when I did it
Practice, practice and practice!

Posted by: tha_max Jun 17 2007, 01:12 PM

I'm having problems with the
-8p5---------5
------5----5---
---------5-----arpeggio, I can't get it up to speed and I keep having dificulties trying to find that perfect spot

Posted by: The Uncreator Jun 17 2007, 02:59 PM

Its the hardets kind of sweep, usually you just start off with that slow, rolling your fingers untill you find what works for you.

Posted by: Pavel Jun 17 2007, 03:29 PM

Visit the Luca Turilli style lesson - there is a little tip on these sweeps.

Posted by: JOhn Jun 18 2007, 07:36 AM

Ha ha ha i was only doing that to get attention so people would check the thread your so tight

But fkalich i don't really understand what you getting at, from what i read your saying not to do something like ---5---------5 with one finger when iv seen alot of other people do it.
------5----5---
---------5-----

Posted by: fkalich Jun 18 2007, 08:07 AM

i know people do it. people do a lot of things. real easy to fall into the "monkey see, monkey do" frame of mind. the top monkey might be impressive in a lot of ways, but one should not consider their knowledge omniscient.

i look for faster fingerings. for the above one, i use the second finger on the third string. i will give you another example.

pavel (and even batio) on this sweep

---8-5----------5---
--------6----6------
-----------5--------

use the index finger twice.

you can use your index finger on the 1st string, third finger on the 2nd string, 2nd finger on the 3rd string. much more effective a fingering. and i don't care if anyone brings moses down from the mount to support moving that index finger like that. clearly something to avoid, a slower fingering, obviously.

edit: i have to keep in mind, i keep my thumb elevated on the back of the neck, that may make this kind of thing easier for me. let me see. yep, another price one pays for resting the palm on the neck, and another thing that even most of the top monkeys do. i would say if you do that, and are going to continue to do that, my way won't work for you.

Posted by: JOhn Jun 18 2007, 10:12 AM

i think i get it now except for one thing

for example if i play an A major arpeggio when the notes go up like



-----------------12-17-12------------------------
--------------14-----------14--------------------
------------14----------------14----------------
---------14----------------------14-------------
--12h-16---------------------------16p-12----------
-------------------------------------------------



I don't play all the 14 notes with my index finger instead i switch it wish another finger correct?

If I'm wrong please explain it because i want to get my technique right.

Edit: i just read pavel's lesson and he is saying the opposite of i what i think you said i must be not getting what you have written =(

Posted by: Pavel Jun 18 2007, 10:45 AM

And Rusty Cooley is doing it that way, and Franceso Fareri and Chris Impellitteri - so i guess if top world shredders are doing it THAT WAY it's nothing wrong in using your index finger twice, am i wrong? AND - your fingering for this using 3rd finger is in no way faster - it's totally uncomfortable and unnatural.

And you said you don't care and it's like a "Monkey way!" - well here is what i'll tell you:
It's like driving your car - and everybody drives with left hand on a wheel and right hand on a gear box - That's "monkish" right?? Well why don't you try driving with the left hand on your gear box and your right hand on your wheel. Sounds like a good idea!!

No offense but....

I smell another fight on the horizon

Posted by: JOhn Jun 18 2007, 11:25 AM

umm was that directed to me or the other dude with a strange name?

Posted by: Pavel Jun 18 2007, 12:02 PM

This was to Fkalich - i quoted him!

Posted by: JOhn Jun 19 2007, 07:25 AM

so i was right?

but no one has really answer my question i posted before and im getting confused.

Posted by: fkalich Jun 19 2007, 08:28 AM

none taken. i highly respect your playing. as a matter of fact, i have gotten more into your lessons, and my respect has even risen, not just your playing, but your teaching ability. i read all your comments on the lessons also, a lot of things to pick up there.

i use the monkey analogy, maybe from my cats, i think they look at me as "their big monkey". people really do act more mammalian than they may realize. The human brain in fact is layered with a reptilian, mammalian, and primate brain, product of evolution.

but to the point, i think it is good not to look at anyone as having perfection in their playing, and to think "maybe I can do this in a better way", no matter who it is. i generally do try to let a person know that i respect their ability, that i am not doing the dog thing (trying to pee higher on the tree than them), but if i feel i have a better way of doing it, i am willing to believe that may well be the case (unless i see it differently later), no matter who they are. If they walk on water, well, then maybe i will defer to them. Otherwise, i reserve the right to feel i may come up with a better mouse trap.

oh, i do find my fingerings very comfortable, they work very well for me. they do feel good to me. i do hold my thumb quite low on the back of the neck. let me look at yours....yes, i can see the tip of your thumb peak over the neck a bit on these sweeps, your thumb is higher on the back or the neck than mine.

I think the reason i got into the habit of my thumb low on the back of the neck, is the way i do my vibrato, which is unusual. all with my wrist and forearm. don't knock that, i am very proud of my vibrato. but that is why i probably do it that way, mostly maintain my thumb pretty low. that elevates my fingers more, so that is probably why this is comfortable for me. makes sense.

Posted by: fkalich Jun 19 2007, 09:15 AM

maybe not, i highly respect Pavel's playing, nobody on this site out does him. I am working though all his lessons, and do most of what he says. But don't always agree with him. If you take my advise over his, you will probably be the first.

that being said, sorry, i was not clear above. when you use 4 or 5 strings, it is not as practicable to do what i said as on 3 strings (although i have been playing around with it).

If i were you i would do this. Listen to Pavel. His is the generally accepted way, you won't go wrong with that. But i do believe in keeping my mind open, and thinking of other ways to do things, alternative approaches. The thing i think about sweeps, is that the upstroke is more difficult, as palm muting is not really effective as on the down stroke. On the down stroke you can pretty well kill the string with your right palm, with practice. But on the upstroke, you rely primarily on your left hand fingers more to do that job. When you use one finger on three consecutive strings, you do the best you can to damp the sting after hitting it (when moving to the next string). Especially on the upstroke. You lift it, pivot it a bit, from the string when you are done with it. But i don't think you will ever be able to get the crisp clean sweeps on these as you can on some other sweeps, not at high speed.

Posted by: Pavel Jun 19 2007, 09:21 AM

Well if it works good for you than it's great!!

And i also noticed my thumb position is changing depending on what i am playing. Think i will work a bit more on that!


Anyway - nice discussion!


John: As i said - visit the Luca Turilli Style lesson - i think it's in the last video - those sweeps you are wondering about - i give a little tip on them there!

Posted by: JOhn Jun 19 2007, 12:16 PM

ok i going to take Pavel's advice because even you fkalich recommended it and two again zero lol

but just to make sure in the arpeggio above in the quote, i play the 14 only with my index finger and the same down right?

Posted by: Pavel Jun 19 2007, 01:51 PM

No - you play it with ring or middle finger (which one is better for you) - i use middle finger for those shapes!

Posted by: mattacuk Jun 19 2007, 03:21 PM

I totally agree with you, Pavels explaination enabled me to get it right off the bat. I just thought he might benifit from seeing it from a different angle!

Posted by: JOhn Jun 20 2007, 07:10 AM

thats for all the help it really helped

Posted by: fkalich Jun 20 2007, 07:46 AM

I would not say play the 14 with index, i would say ring finger. i would say it is:


1 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 3 3 3 4 1
---------------12-17-12------------------------
------------14-----------14--------------------
----------14----------------14----------------
-------14----------------------14-------------
12h-16---------------------------16p-12----------
------------------------------------------------

some might play the 14 with the 2nd finger, i guess. but not the index. you would not play it as a bar chord though, the index finger tip would be on the 6th string, and shift into position over the 1st string, and then back to the 6th.

Posted by: Ryan Jun 20 2007, 08:01 AM

Is it bad to change thumb postions? because when i do Legato. My thumb goes really far down. But when i bend, or w/e else. I have way more control with my thumb just poking out of the top of the neck, not even half an inch!! Is that bad or what?



Dont use your Index use your ring, or middle(like me ). Using your index would make nosense what so ever!!

Posted by: JOhn Jun 20 2007, 08:20 AM

yeh i got my index finger mixed up with my third finger (i don't know what its called )

Posted by: fkalich Jun 20 2007, 12:38 PM

This has always been a taboo in classical guitar. Some may say that this taboo is not relevant to electric guitar. Myself, i feel (for reasons that seem self-evident to me) that unless you have problems with your hands (pain), or possibly just don't have very strong hands/wrists, you don't help yourself cradling the neck. I don't think it is so much thumb positioning, it is the collapsing of the thumb and resting the palm (below the thumb) on the back of the neck. I think that if you will find that you can bend a string just fine without doing that, you will just modify your technique accordingly (rely more on wrists for strength than leveraging with the palm below the thumb).

That being said, people will disagree. Most do what you are saying, including the guitar gods past and present.