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> Its 'illegal' To Burn Cd's To Your Computer
Owen
post Jan 1 2008, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 31 2007, 04:11 PM) *
Owen, that was a propaganda piece. Look for the techniques journalists use to mislead you. I see several here. One is the way he interleaves his own opinions (really editorial opinions) in paragraphs that contain quotes. This leaves the reader with the impression that those are validated assertions. And he knows what he is doing, you have virtually no journalist integrity anymore, anywhere, the only issue is what propaganda methods are being utilized to mold public opinion in the intended direction. I don't know about Britain. The US had a period of journalistic integrity from about 1920 though perhaps the 1990's. But it is long gone. Traditionally all journalists are liars, today they are back to what they have been for the most part though out history. Truth no longer means anything in that profession. Sad thing, it once did, that is a fact.

All we have here is a plaintiff making a legal argument, which the judge will either buy or will not. This is the way the system works. A plaintiff tries to use whatever argument it can to win a case. Nothing wrong with that, the judge is there for a reason, to accept it or disqualify it, based on statutory and common law, and legal precedent. I feel confident that we have laws in place sufficient to protect us, that is what the judges are there for. And what elected officials (who also make laws) are there for.

I feel no sympathy for those that get caught. You steal, you pay. Those fighting it deserve what they get, the big bill. They are just talked into this by some lawyers trying to get publicity for themselves. They could have just admitted what they did, paid the few thousand bucks, and have been done with it.


There is obviously a large degree of dancing around the actual point of the article by the journalist here and I did initially realise this, however, there is great sections of the RIAA that are of the belief that I've stated here, for example in this trial Jennifer Pariser, Sony BMG's head of litigation, stated that making a personal copy of a cd is:

QUOTE
"a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy.'"


Sony are a huge part of the RIAA so obviously if they're starting to point fingers then this will be the next bandwagon the RIAA jump on in its attempt to drag from the murky waters the slowly dying record industry.

As far as I'm aware in the other case ; RIAA v Jeffrey Howell the news is just breaking out, there isnt a hell of a lot of detail on it yet, so no-one can really verify the WP's accuracy here - the report itself just out two days old.

I believe the laws are very sketchy on this whole issue of a separate personal copy though, there needs to be a firm placement of what is right and what is wrong as the judgements seem to be getting thrown here, there and everywhere in the courts over the legality of music, media and its distrubution. No-ones quite sure what is happening and thats where the problem lies. I think most of us here at least are of the opinion that we should be able to put legally purchased music onto our pc's without being subject to fines.

In terms of journalistic integrity - the truth doesnt make money with big business so we will obviously be fed lies and opinionated views, here however there is obviously a segment of the RIAA the believes firmly in the illegality of having a personal copy of a CD a fact which I feel needs to be disputed with them.


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The Uncreator
post Jan 1 2008, 02:53 AM
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I dont see any logical reason why it should be illegal for me to keep my music on my computer, all 300+ of my CD's are bought and paid for in full. If they dont want us to burn copies and hand them out, make CD-RW discs illegal then.
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fkalich
post Jan 1 2008, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Dec 31 2007, 07:53 PM) *
I dont see any logical reason why it should be illegal for me to keep my music on my computer, all 300+ of my CD's are bought and paid for in full. If they dont want us to burn copies and hand them out, make CD-RW discs illegal then.


that is not the issue. you have a plaintiff in court, trying to make effort to curtail the massive losses to revenue and profits, and trying to use any legal argument they can to convince the judge (judges). They don't care about your copies, they care about the unpaid for copies. However they are not going to limit the argument, they will let the judge do that. That is to be expected, the judge has to walk the fine line between trying to stop what is clearly theft of personal property, and protection of other personal liberties. This is new territory of course, while we have always had intellectual property, it has not be so easy to steal it as it is today. I don't consider the record companies the bad guys, they are the ones getting screwed by the theft. But the article made them out to be, because they are picking on those poor people who just want free stuff, how unfair of them not to just want to give it all away. Unfair that people be expected to pay for things. It would be useful to them, in their efforts to stop the theft, if copies were all considered illegal. So sure they want that, what do you expect? I am sure you like your own money. You think they like losing money? But I highly doubt any judge will buy that, or if one did, that it would not be overturned on appeal. Plaintiffs always ask for outrageous things, that is to be expected.

No Owen, it has not always been the case that money was the driving force behind journalists. Journalist integrity in the US for example, was quite high in much of the 20th century, regardless of profits. Those were different times. I have lost all respect for the profession, and in fact, my brother is general manager for a newspaper.
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Freddie Fourfing...
post Jan 1 2008, 03:54 PM
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I suppose that the corporations are stumbling to keep up with the changes in how music can be distributed these days. Back when you had to buy a vinyl album and a pack of cassettes, then go home and record the vinyl to tape, which took the entire play time of the album to do, and then give copies to friends at your own expense for the blank tape and the time, etc.....that type of "piracy" was probably not such a big problem. Now you can burn copies almost instantly and fileshare with gobs of people....now it's a different story.

Short of making CDs un-burnable, or some other radical change, I don't know what they can do about it.

I don't know what it costs to make a CD, but I'm pretty sure that $15.00-$20.00 a pop reels in a lot of money. I know that companies pass along losses to consumers to cover the costs, but I for one will not waste my time feeling sorry for big corporations any more than for those who steal.

I hope it all works out for the greater good of all involved, especially the musicians and their fans, but I've seen decisions come out of courtrooms that suggest making drug testing mandatory. We'll see.


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The Uncreator
post Jan 1 2008, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 31 2007, 06:37 PM) *
that is not the issue. you have a plaintiff in court, trying to make effort to curtail the massive losses to revenue and profits, and trying to use any legal argument they can to convince the judge (judges). They don't care about your copies, they care about the unpaid for copies. However they are not going to limit the argument, they will let the judge do that. That is to be expected, the judge has to walk the fine line between trying to stop what is clearly theft of personal property, and protection of other personal liberties. This is new territory of course, while we have always had intellectual property, it has not be so easy to steal it as it is today. I don't consider the record companies the bad guys, they are the ones getting screwed by the theft. But the article made them out to be, because they are picking on those poor people who just want free stuff, how unfair of them not to just want to give it all away. Unfair that people be expected to pay for things. It would be useful to them, in their efforts to stop the theft, if copies were all considered illegal. So sure they want that, what do you expect? I am sure you like your own money. You think they like losing money? But I highly doubt any judge will buy that, or if one did, that it would not be overturned on appeal. Plaintiffs always ask for outrageous things, that is to be expected.

No Owen, it has not always been the case that money was the driving force behind journalists. Journalist integrity in the US for example, was quite high in much of the 20th century, regardless of profits. Those were different times. I have lost all respect for the profession, and in fact, my brother is general manager for a newspaper.


+1
You do make a good point
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Jakub Luptovec
post Jan 2 2008, 05:23 PM
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Well.. Fkalich is right.. Pirates acti in illegal and unmoral way.
but on the other hand... We have to look at the root of the problem - bad legislative and uneffective - obstolette - thinking and marketing ways of labels. This is digital age - CD's are behind zenith - if arent provided with some extras, next to music - be it t-shirt, keychain.. anything. The output from one sold CD GREATLY surprasses the inputs, put in his creation. If you count in recording, you have a bit of problem - but there are 2 solutions:

1) Try to sell fewer of expensive CD's

or

2) Try to sell a heap of cheaper CD's

Pick option 2 and provide it with some stuff like posters, keychains - ANYTHING, that cannot be shared in digital form! In mass production, cost of these things will go down so much, that it wont add that much to the price and customers will have one more reason NOT to download it.

Just take a look at iTunes - it prospers. People are willing to pay for good music - not much, but they will pay if it will be comfortable, have a reasonably low price and once more - comfortable. Man, people are lazy.. I would rather DL cd from net and pay 5% more, than go to shop 10 km's.. especially, if in Czech republic is next to IMPOSSIBLE to get bands like Blood for Blood and Clawfinger.. Sure, it can be sent to my home adress - but i will pay 100 czech crowns more for delivery - cost of CD is around 400-500 crowns - sorry but... 20%??? Nope.. too much. I will rather DL it, have it immediatly, cheaper (free:-P ) and have no problem with "Oh no.. they sold out this stuff..."

One more thing my fellow guitarfreaking friends...

Imagine banks without doors and alarms - so everyone can just get inside and steal money from there - with less than small risk of beign caught. I guarantee you, that you will have a big crowd of interresting people there, trying to steal a bit for themselves. Thats what piracy is - a bank, without security. People are greedy beings - always want a little more - tell them not to take, what is so easy and safe to take is like tell man, to have a children.. Its our psyhic... our inner self, that tells us "Go and get something... dont be stupid - everyone does it".

I dont know ANYONE, really ANOYONE, from my friends, who doesnt download - czech republic is relatively poor country (our politicans would beat me for that but... I prefer not to lie;) ) - music, games, videos. Why? Its expensive.. But if they gave me a t-shirt to that new album... I would think twice, if I would go for it to normal shop and buy it normally.

You must never forget, what are humans like... Dont try to say me, that you are surprised about piracy... We have two sides of coin, two guilty sides:

1) People - we are, who we are

2) Buisness strategy, advertisement and service - guys, wake up - CD's are out now.. its digital age..

My advices:

Do not punish, seek a way to evade the need to punish.
Learn to market it properly, and you can sell anything.. but.. to sue someone and send lawyers, to get the job done, is easier than to turn brain on and look for rational solution, isnt it? people are lazy...

Both sides are guilty.
NEXT CASE!

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Jan 2 2008, 05:35 PM


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Freddie Fourfing...
post Jan 3 2008, 10:35 AM
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"All of Jakub's last post"

My friend.....you make some very persuasive arguments.....well said!


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blindwillie
post Jan 3 2008, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 1 2008, 01:11 AM) *
Andrew, I doubt that the public image issue is of much significance in comparison to the lost profits due to the theft. Big problem, protection of intellectual property rights is as important to an economy as protection of physical property rights.

No. Once again: It's illegal but it's NOT stealing, it's NOT theft.

RIAA and their associates like to think a copy <=> the worth of the original in loss of income.
Studies implies that the group of people who pirates stuff is the group that buy the most media.

I won't go into another debate about copyright and intellectual rights.
I'll just plead to the media companies to look at this with open eyes and with atleast some kind of business minded approach.
Do you think harrassing your customers is good for your business today?
Do you think it will be good for your business tomorrow?
I know you don't care about Q2, it's too far away for you but: Do you think harrassing your customers will be good for your company in the long run?
Do you think there is a slight possibility you could make big money on the internet? To sell your stuff in other ways?
If you see that possibility: Why dont you go for it!!!!???!!! GDDMT!!!

You also have to understand that now you are not "competing" only with your friends on a closed market. Now you are competing with several new ways of getting me entertained.

I have (wild guess, last time I counted was in the 80-ies) 400-500 vinyls and ... maybe 200+ CDs. 50+ DVDs maybe. Probably something like 200-300+ games for all kind of computers and consoles. Legally bought. The CDs I've bought the last 5 or so years (games included, with the exception of reinstallments) have been played exactly 1 (one) time. When I ripped them to where they belong. And RIAA, please listen to me now, this is important.

I . DO . NOT . WANT . TO . HAVE . TO . BUY . A . PHYSICAL . MEDIA . ANYMORE!

I don't want to handle and store and search squaremeters of physical media to find something i want to distract me for a while. I want instant access on whatever fancy gadget I have handy right now. DO . YOU . UNDERSTAND . ME?
Since you and your members consider the media unimportant, according to you I'm not buying the media I'm leasing the content, what's the problem!?!

More to the topic again.
In Sweden the right to make a copy is regulated by laws and RIAA can scream as much as they like about "theft". It's not. If your members don't like that, may I suggest some actions from your side?
Please withdraw all your businesses from Sweden, Russia and all others countries which citizens you call thieves because their laws doesn't suite your business. We won't miss you. *waves*


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ezravdb
post Jan 3 2008, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Freddie Fourfingers @ Dec 31 2007, 03:55 PM) *
RIDICULOUS!

Is it illegal to play the CDs I buy, since I'm "reproducing" copyrighted music in the air?

I hope it gets to the point where it is legal to listen to music only if the ACTUAL BAND is in your house.


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Mackietao
post Jan 4 2008, 09:06 PM
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I like Jakubs post.

I´m actually thinking of throwing away my 200-300 cd´s because I have not used a cd in 5 years. except for mixed cd´s burned for the gym, partys, car rides.

Actually it´s more often like burned mix mp3 disks. Or someone just pluging in their mp3 player to the sound system. Who want´s to stack 100 records in the front of your car when you can have one with all of them. People are used to it, you can´t make "lazy media" illegal. Make a system that is easy with buying instead.

makeing the so called "lazy media" illegal would be like start sending poor quality tv with 15 inch screens. Sure it was fancy and special before. But no one would accept it just because let´s say tv companies made more money this way.
But now with super high quality 42 inch screens and full HD tv and all that it´s insane thinking people would go back. Cd´s are only a few years away to being as modern as LP´s.

With todays techology something some super giants servers with all music in the world (all official at least) and you just make your own saved playlist. it all keeps track on what you listens to and a supersmall fee for every song when it´s played. That would be cool. smile.gif
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The Uncreator
post Jan 4 2008, 09:32 PM
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I think Record Companys should start doing what Nuclear Blast is doing. They have the CD In stores for people like me, who want the CD, And they have the album alternatively downloadable on there site. Nuclear Blast has tons of there new CD's and many more adding to the collection ready for download on there site, and sometimes cheaper.
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