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> Theory Disscusion, Feel free to ask, blues, jazz, funk, rock,...
Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 6 2008, 06:23 PM
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Feel free to ask any theory question that you don't know the answer to, and I'll try to help.


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shellshock1911
post Jan 7 2008, 04:43 AM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Jan 6 2008, 06:23 PM) *
Feel free to ask any theory question that you don't know the answer to, and I'll try to help.


Ok I have a question about jazz. First of all I notice the chords change from like Abmaj7 to B7 to Em7, etc. is jazz not diatonic? Second of all, I notice in the jazz soloing lessons we have that there is a lot of chromatics. Is this common? Or do jazz players use diatonic scales a lot as well?


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 7 2008, 12:13 PM
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Jazz theory is chromatic most of the time. But that chromatic has "evolved" from the use of diatonic scales. This is because in jazz you have lots of key\tonality shiftings. For example:

Blues: 1 key (no shifting)
Rock, Metal, Funk, etc. : ~1-4 keys (little shifting, doesen't have to be 4 off course, sometimes there are extremes..)
Jazz: lots of keys

What lots of keys means is that you use maybe 2 or 3 chords in one key and then move on to the next key and use 2-3 chords and so on. This is just an example, not a general rule. Now imagine that you want to solo over those progressions. You would use diatonic scales, arpeggios or whatever.. off course, but soon you'll realise that you are using a mix of all the scales (tonalities) that are being used in the composition, and they all make up a chromatic scale.
Also not only the modulations (key changes) make up jazz theory, in jazz we use a lot of chromatic chords (the ones that use notes outside the diatonics, like some forms of augmented chords). So when we play jazz harmonies, we actually use minimum 4 notes for every chord, playing also chords in different keys as well, and things get complicated pretty soon. Thats why it is essential in jazz to have a solid general knowledge about scales, modes and tonalities in all keys.


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DeepRoots
post Jan 7 2008, 12:17 PM
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wow great explanation- i hope to get into jazz in the near future, i truly is a hard style to master by the looks of it.

Thanks again Ivan wink.gif
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Moon Boots
post Jan 7 2008, 12:29 PM
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Looks like just the sort of drop in thread I need.

Despite playing for almost 2 years now, I'm was a complete beginner in terms of theory until I read a few of Andrew's theory threads a couple of days ago. Everything was explained really well, but I'm still not quite sure how I should practise or play a scale.

For example:




If I was to learn that, what notes would I play, and in what order?



Cheers,

Jason


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PlayAllDay
post Jan 7 2008, 12:31 PM
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Start on the 6th string and play always from left to right, then go to 5th string left to right etc ettc


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Moon Boots
post Jan 7 2008, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (PlayAllDay @ Jan 7 2008, 11:31 AM) *
Start on the 6th string and play always from left to right, then go to 5th string left to right etc ettc



It's a bit disconcerting to think that you you might be learning it wrong so I'm glad thats sorted now.


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PlayAllDay
post Jan 7 2008, 12:45 PM
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You're very welcome - you can practise with more confidence for sure if you know you are on the right track. smile.gif


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Philippe
post Jan 7 2008, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Jan 7 2008, 12:29 PM) *
Looks like just the sort of drop in thread I need.

Despite playing for almost 2 years now, I'm was a complete beginner in terms of theory until I read a few of Andrew's theory threads a couple of days ago. Everything was explained really well, but I'm still not quite sure how I should practise or play a scale.

For example:


If I was to learn that, what notes would I play, and in what order?
Cheers,

Jason


I think you should start on one of the root notes. Because if you start on the first note (bottom, left),
that'd be phrygian mode. But on your figure it's a major scale ("C" shape of the caged system).

The finger pattern is the same in both case. But depending on where you start, you're playing a different mode.
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jan 7 2008, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Jan 7 2008, 06:13 AM) *
Jazz theory is chromatic most of the time. But that chromatic has "evolved" from the use of diatonic scales. This is because in jazz you have lots of key\tonality shiftings. For example:

....


Great explanation Ivan!

QUOTE (Philippe @ Jan 7 2008, 07:01 AM) *
I think you should start on one of the root notes. Because if you start on the first note (bottom, left),
that'd be phrygian mode. But on your figure it's a major scale ("C" shape of the caged system).

The finger pattern is the same in both case. But depending on where you start, you're playing a different mode.


Ok, here's the deal - you and PAD are both right in my opinion, but you need to put it into context. As I say in my Introduction to Scales lesson you need to be careful about understanding the roots and how they relate to the rest of the scale. This means you need to spend a signicifant amount of time practicing the scale from root to root so that you understand the sound of the scale. As Phillipe says, if you don;t start on the root you will train your ear to hear a different scale (Phrygian in his example).

However, as PAD says, when you have mastered that, then every note on the scale is there for you to use as long as you understand where the roots are, and in playing you should not restrict yourself at all. Also, when practicing for speed and fluency, when you know the sound of the scale, you should play the whole pattern from left to right just as PAD says so that you understand the whole pattern.


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shellshock1911
post Jan 7 2008, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Jan 7 2008, 12:13 PM) *
Jazz theory is chromatic most of the time. But that chromatic has "evolved" from the use of diatonic scales. This is because in jazz you have lots of key\tonality shiftings. For example:

Blues: 1 key (no shifting)
Rock, Metal, Funk, etc. : ~1-4 keys (little shifting, doesen't have to be 4 off course, sometimes there are extremes..)
Jazz: lots of keys

What lots of keys means is that you use maybe 2 or 3 chords in one key and then move on to the next key and use 2-3 chords and so on. This is just an example, not a general rule. Now imagine that you want to solo over those progressions. You would use diatonic scales, arpeggios or whatever.. off course, but soon you'll realise that you are using a mix of all the scales (tonalities) that are being used in the composition, and they all make up a chromatic scale.
Also not only the modulations (key changes) make up jazz theory, in jazz we use a lot of chromatic chords (the ones that use notes outside the diatonics, like some forms of augmented chords). So when we play jazz harmonies, we actually use minimum 4 notes for every chord, playing also chords in different keys as well, and things get complicated pretty soon. Thats why it is essential in jazz to have a solid general knowledge about scales, modes and tonalities in all keys.


Alright thx for the awesome explanation man, I see now.


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Muris Varajic
post Jan 7 2008, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Philippe @ Jan 7 2008, 01:01 PM) *
I think you should start on one of the root notes. Because if you start on the first note (bottom, left),
that'd be phrygian mode. But on your figure it's a major scale ("C" shape of the caged system).

The finger pattern is the same in both case. But depending on where you start, you're playing a different mode.


I wouldn't agree on that one. smile.gif
You can start from any note actually,
it all all depends of Bass note or chord/chords.

Ouch,sorry for hijacking Ivan mellow.gif

This post has been edited by Muris: Jan 7 2008, 05:15 PM


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Philippe
post Jan 7 2008, 06:27 PM
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ok, next time i'll keep my mouth shut smile.gif
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jan 7 2008, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Philippe @ Jan 7 2008, 12:27 PM) *
ok, next time i'll keep my mouth shut smile.gif



Nooooo! Please don't - we're all here to learn and I think you made a good point.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 7 2008, 06:58 PM
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Yeah man, thats a pretty logical question to me, unfotunately tonight is like Bogdan's birthday and i go to his party, so I don't have time to write the answer - you'll have to wait until tomorrow laugh.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 8 2008, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Jan 7 2008, 12:29 PM) *
Looks like just the sort of drop in thread I need.

Despite playing for almost 2 years now, I'm was a complete beginner in terms of theory until I read a few of Andrew's theory threads a couple of days ago. Everything was explained really well, but I'm still not quite sure how I should practise or play a scale.

For example:


If I was to learn that, what notes would I play, and in what order?
Cheers,

Jason


Hey guys, I'm back. smile.gif

Look you need to approach differently to that problem. You have to ask yourself:"What is this on the fretboard?" No really wink.gif I'll explain..: Here we have a portion of the Gmajor scale on the neck, that is really easy to play. Blue dots are the notes within the scale, and yellow ones are the root (G) notes. So what will you actually learn by knowing this pattern? Well not much really....you will know only...the pattern. BUT if you read the next text, maybe some things will get more clear:

Here we have a Gmajor scale. Since we have these notes from a Gmajor scale in use we will say that we are inside of a Gmajor tonality or a key. Tonality is built around one major scale (in our case we have Gmajor scale off course). So, when you see this scale you know that it has 7 notes and a specific tone-semitone (tone=two frets;semitone=one fret distance) disposition. Something like this:


G - tone - A - tone - B - semitone - C - tone- D - tone- E - tone- F# - semitone - G

Example of this would be the distance between the F# and the G notes. As you can see, they always are at one fret distance from each other. wink.gif

So why is this important, you're probably scratching your head right now... Well because when you start out from a different note, for example from A note, and play the same notes written in your fretboard here:

you'll get a whole another scale with some other tone-semitone intervals thus building the MODES of the Gmajor key. There are 7 MODES in a Gmajor key as there are 7 notes. Now watch this carefully:

start from G you get: Ionian MODE
start from A you get: Dorian MODE
start from B you get: Phrygian MODE
start from C you get: Lydian MODE
start from D you get: Mixolydian MODE
start from E you get: Aeolian MODE
start from F# you get: Locrian MODE

So, I think you are aware that you need to know all these modes and theory, since it will be a lot easier for you to construct your own exercises and to practice scales.

For the end I suggest that you practice your scales for starters like on the picture shown bellow: with three note per string patterns, as they can be easier to remember. This is just the first mode, build the rest based on what I've told you, and post if you have any questions...And YES you DO have to learn the whole thing wink.gif But take it easy man smile.gif

This post has been edited by Milenkovic Ivan: Jan 8 2008, 02:35 AM
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Moon Boots
post Jan 13 2008, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Jan 8 2008, 01:33 AM) *
Hey guys, I'm back. smile.gif

Look you need to approach differently to that problem. You have to ask yourself:"What is this on the fretboard?" No really wink.gif I'll explain..: Here we have a portion of the Gmajor scale on the neck, that is really easy to play. Blue dots are the notes within the scale, and yellow ones are the root (G) notes. So what will you actually learn by knowing this pattern? Well not much really....you will know only...the pattern. BUT if you read the next text, maybe some things will get more clear:

Here we have a Gmajor scale. Since we have these notes from a Gmajor scale in use we will say that we are inside of a Gmajor tonality or a key. Tonality is built around one major scale (in our case we have Gmajor scale off course). So, when you see this scale you know that it has 7 notes and a specific tone-semitone (tone=two frets;semitone=one fret distance) disposition. Something like this:
G - tone - A - tone - B - semitone - C - tone- D - tone- E - tone- F# - semitone - G

Example of this would be the distance between the F# and the G notes. As you can see, they always are at one fret distance from each other. wink.gif

So why is this important, you're probably scratching your head right now... Well because when you start out from a different note, for example from A note, and play the same notes written in your fretboard here:

you'll get a whole another scale with some other tone-semitone intervals thus building the MODES of the Gmajor key. There are 7 MODES in a Gmajor key as there are 7 notes. Now watch this carefully:

start from G you get: Ionian MODE
start from A you get: Dorian MODE
start from B you get: Phrygian MODE
start from C you get: Lydian MODE
start from D you get: Mixolydian MODE
start from E you get: Aeolian MODE
start from F# you get: Locrian MODE

So, I think you are aware that you need to know all these modes and theory, since it will be a lot easier for you to construct your own exercises and to practice scales.

For the end I suggest that you practice your scales for starters like on the picture shown bellow: with three note per string patterns, as they can be easier to remember. This is just the first mode, build the rest based on what I've told you, and post if you have any questions...And YES you DO have to learn the whole thing wink.gif But take it easy man smile.gif



oooooooooooohhhhhh...I seeee!!! So that's what modes are! I was actually playing different modes without even realising laugh.gif

Your post encouraged me to slow down and think about the notes of the scale, and what I was actually doing when I was playing it, that's definatly much better than just speeding through everything as fast possible and not really understanding it. And after reading what you said about modes I checked out Andrews theory lesson on modes and things are really starting to make sense now.

Thanks a lot Ivan biggrin.gif

Jason


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 14 2008, 03:17 PM
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smile.gif I'm very glad that I could help man. If you need anything else feel free to ask! smile.gif


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Coram Deo
post Feb 1 2008, 04:42 PM
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Hey Ivan, I have a question about your blues soloing beginner lesson. You said in the intro that you used a basic 1-4-5 blues progression, what does that mean? Please explain what you mean by 1-4-5.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 1 2008, 05:50 PM
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Hey man,

It means that we are using the first, fourth and fifth chord in a progression. It is common for the blues, and one of its marks. The theory behind it is as follows:

In the blues we are referring on the I, IV and the V degree of the major scale. Since we are using B major for our progression (the blues where the root is B we have the following notes (degrees are in Roman numbers):

I - B
II - C#
III - D#
IV - E
V - F#
VI - G#
VII - A#

These seven notes that you see up there are making the B major scale. Every note is building its own chord so we have 3 chords involved are as follows

I chord B,
IV chord E
V chord F#

and this is what I mean when I say 1, 4, 5 blues progression. Often musician only say the roman numbers when they speak about progressions because it would get pretty messy if I would have to tell you every chord by note name and its category etc..

Now there is one more thing that is making things a little complicated, so if you want to know more go on and read. As you know you can use a B minor pentatonic scale with this progression and it will sound good. And you may probably ask yourself why is that? How can notes from the Bminor sound good over Bmajor progression. Well, we are not using EXACTLY B major chords up there. You probably noticed that I didn't write chord types like for example 'Bmajor" or Bminor. We are using mostly dominant chords in the blues. Some of these chords:

B
E
F#

can be dominant and this is why we have different scales. We can combine notes from minor pentatonic, major pentatonic, thus creating something that resembles like dorian mode, and also use a minor blues scale, which has one blue note as you can see in the charts of the lesson (it is marked green). We combine this scales based on the type of our chords that are used. Most of the time these are dominant (B7, E7, F#7), but can be major, or minor too. In blues you can use any type of chord like 9's, 11's etc, but the main difference is in that minor third, major third or dominant seven that gives the progression its true feel.

This post has been edited by Milenkovic Ivan: Feb 1 2008, 05:51 PM


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