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> Basic And Extended Chords
eddiecat
post Mar 22 2008, 11:02 AM
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Hello Muris! How are you doing?
I had a great week of practicing: I printed the whole chromatic scale in intervals
and after learning your swing rhythm lesson I've tried to come up
with my own chord fingerings starting from their formula.
For ex: Maj7 is Root, 3rd, 5th and 7th, so I choose a root note (1)
and from there I try to build the chord looking for the other notes (3, 5, 7). It works!
More extended chords are more difficult because very often, depending on where the root note is,
I have to decide what notes to leave out and I'm still confused, but I'm working on it!
I'm also working on the 7 major modes (in one position) and now I know
the formulae by heart, but playing them fluently is another thing!
But it's been very useful to learn the 7 boxes of the major scale.
This long post just to ask you one thing:
if you plan on doing a mode series (maybe in different boxes),
could you do the BT with a little more complex chords so I can study both modes and chord construction?
I hope this is a good suggestion for some nice theory exercises...
If not, no problem, I've already got enough headaches to cure... tongue.gif
Cheers, Eddie



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Muris Varajic
post Mar 22 2008, 02:11 PM
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Al fine Eddie,thanks for asking,hope you're doing great as well!! smile.gif

I see you're having some awesome progress on 7th chords!
As for extended chords,just be sure to have root,3rd and note that clarifies the chord(11th,13th or 9th).
5th is most common to miss out.same with 7th.

I'll do my best to make more mode lessons as well,
with some nice chords and chops,no worries. wink.gif


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eddiecat
post Mar 23 2008, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 22 2008, 02:11 PM) *
Al fine Eddie,thanks for asking,hope you're doing great as well!! smile.gif

I see you're having some awesome progress on 7th chords!
As for extended chords,just be sure to have root,3rd and note that clarifies the chord(11th,13th or 9th).
5th is most common to miss out.same with 7th.

I'll do my best to make more mode lessons as well,
with some nice chords and chops,no worries. wink.gif



Hello Muris!
I understand the 5th, but if I leave out the 7th in a 9th chord isn't it just like playing an add 9 chord?
Same thing with 11th and 13th chords: don't I have to put the notes in between?
I ask you this because you say to put root, 3rd and "note" that clarifies the chord.
Hope you see my point...

P.S. In your pentatonic collab I tried to play with some feeling
without thinking too much, in fact it's my second take. Hope it's ok.
Eddie
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Muris Varajic
post Mar 23 2008, 03:27 PM
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You're absolutely right Eddie,it's almost like playing add chord,almost.
Deal is,we have only 6 strings and tunning often doesn't allow us to play all notes,
specially in 13th chords(has 7 notes).


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Andrew Cockburn
post Mar 23 2008, 03:51 PM
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I would say that for a 9th, using the 7th is pretty important - less so for 11th, 13th etc, as Muris says smile.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Mar 23 2008, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Mar 23 2008, 03:51 PM) *
I would say that for a 9th, using the 7th is pretty important - less so for 11th, 13th etc, as Muris says smile.gif


Spot on Andrew. smile.gif
The idea is actually to keep lower note next to highest one,if possible.
With that technique you'll avoid kind of add chord.

laugh.gif Now I realize the idea of 8 strings huh.gif laugh.gif


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eddiecat
post Mar 23 2008, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 23 2008, 03:55 PM) *
Spot on Andrew. smile.gif
The idea is actually to keep lower note next to highest one,if possible.
With that technique you'll avoid kind of add chord.

laugh.gif Now I realize the idea of 8 strings huh.gif laugh.gif


Could you please explain to me what you mean
by that? I don't think I understand... Sorry sad.gif
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eddiecat
post Mar 23 2008, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 23 2008, 06:19 PM) *
Could you please explain to me what you mean
by that? I don't think I understand... Sorry sad.gif


Sorry, but just to be sure:

9th chord: the 7th makes the difference between 9 and add9.
11th: I can leave out the 7th, but I have to put at least the 9th to have a pure 11th chord.
13th: I can leave out the 7th, but I have to put at least the 9th AND/OR the 11th to have a pure 13th chord.
Is it correct?

Eddie
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Muris Varajic
post Mar 23 2008, 06:45 PM
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Yeah,that'd be the key Eddie. smile.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Mar 23 2008, 06:48 PM
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Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:

1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.

What do you think?


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Muris Varajic
post Mar 23 2008, 06:51 PM
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Well explained Andrew. smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 23 2008, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Mar 23 2008, 06:48 PM) *
Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:

1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.

What do you think?


Very nicely put Andrew. You even made a few block in my head to get together biggrin.gif


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eddiecat
post Mar 24 2008, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Mar 23 2008, 06:48 PM) *
Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:

1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.

What do you think?


Thank you Andrew and Muris, this makes things much clearer and it's exactly what I thought,
but there's one thing I'm still confused about: the order of notes.
I've come across chords in which the order is different than explained in theory:
I've seen an F#9- in which the highest note is not the 9- but the root note F#.
Can we actually order the notes that make the chord as we like?
I know you can do it for simple chords (inversions),
but can we do the same thing with extended chords?
I tought extensions had to be an octave higher than the root note also when played...
I hope my question is clear and not too dumb...
Tank you, Eddie

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 24 2008, 03:18 PM
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That's another great question Eddie.
Order of note is another thing mostly caused by guitar tuning system.
Most of the time root is lowest one except when it's marked,inversion.
As for other notes,order could be in many ways.
You mentioned F#-9.
Point is to have G note at least in distance of 9 degrees from root note,that'd be -9.
If you put G right next to root that'd be 2nd and you wouldn't have 9th.
As for other notes,you can have 5th in octave higher,higher then 9th to be precise.
Same with 3rd and 7th.
It's matter of choice,sound,fingering etc. smile.gif


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eddiecat
post Mar 24 2008, 03:53 PM
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Perfect!
So on the guitar the extended notes (9, 11, 13) can also be played
the octave lower in regards to the root note!
Just like the -9 in the F#-9 chord with the root F# on the 7th fret of the B string!
Right?

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 24 2008, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 24 2008, 03:53 PM) *
Perfect!
So on the guitar the extended notes (9, 11, 13) can also be played
the octave lower in regards to the root note!
Just like the -9 in the F#-9 chord with the root F# on the 7th fret of the B string!
Right?


Kind of,depends of notes order.
The best way is to have root at bottom and rest of the notes above.
In inversions another thing happens.
But be careful with inversions,if you play alone you might not get wanted result.
When you have bass guitar bellow,you're free to do whatever you want with inversions,
bass note will still be the lowest one.


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eddiecat
post Mar 24 2008, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 24 2008, 04:15 PM) *
Kind of,depends of notes order.
The best way is to have root at bottom and rest of the notes above.
In inversions another thing happens.
But be careful with inversions,if you play alone you might not get wanted result.
When you have bass guitar bellow,you're free to do whatever you want with inversions,
bass note will still be the lowest one.


It's true, I compared some same chords with different fingerings
and I must say that the ones with the root note at the bottom sound
much nicer and particular, especially extended ones
where the added notes give them a special flavour.
(Ex: the F#-9 in your swing lesson and the F#-9 with the root on B string).
Now I'm doing the solo lesson.
Question: over the D#min7-5 you are actually playing an arpeggio root, 3b, 5b
and then you close it on the 7thbb of the dim chord?
Great lesson, but too many out notes! laugh.gif
Thank you... Eddie

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 24 2008, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 24 2008, 06:04 PM) *
Question: over the D#min7-5 you are actually playing an arpeggio (root, 3rd b, 5th cool.gif


That's right,except that 5th is flatted ,so it's -5. smile.gif


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eddiecat
post Mar 24 2008, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 24 2008, 06:06 PM) *
That's right,except that 5th is flatted ,so it's -5. smile.gif


Oh, yes!
Forgot the b... dry.gif
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Muris Varajic
post Mar 24 2008, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 24 2008, 06:11 PM) *
Oh, yes!
Forgot the b... dry.gif


wink.gif


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