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> Basic And Extended Chords
eddiecat
post Apr 24 2008, 12:18 PM
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Hi Muris!!! I know you're really busy lately (me too, practicing) so I hope that all you're doing is going great!
And I hope you are doing fine and that your life is giving you great satisfactions...
This is my update: I'm going crazy!
There is one thing I DON'T understand:
Simple triads sound great when I strum all the 6 strings, specially 1st position chords.
But the more complex the chords get, the more I find that they sound cool strumming less strings
even if in theory they have more notes!
I just don't get it, when I try an 11th chord (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th=6 notes) on all the 6 strings
I find it confusing.... In other words I can't HEAR the real flavour of the chord.
But if I play it on, let's say, 4 strings, it sounds much better!
Final question: could you give me a cool "extended" progression that I can record and upload
so you can tell me if my fingering choice is ok?
I hope you see my point and don't find it too dumb.

All the best, Eddie

This post has been edited by eddiecat: Apr 24 2008, 12:19 PM
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eddiecat
post Apr 27 2008, 03:14 PM
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I know you are very busy,
but when you can check my previous post out! tongue.gif
All the best... Eddie
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Muris Varajic
post Apr 27 2008, 11:34 PM
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Sorry for delay Eddie,busy as you said sad.gif

I understand you problem but that's sweet problem I would say. biggrin.gif
And it's mostly related to inversion/note orders of particular chord,extended one.
You can also notice that many guitar players do not play every note in chord,
only most important ones.
This is also related to tuning system as you already know.

So,my suggestion is next.
Try to learn some tunes with extended chords,from tabs or by ear,doesn't matter.
Them slowly exam those chords/shapes to realize why do they sound like that.
And then you simply apply some of those rules into your own playing/composing.

I'm encouraging you to record some examples of your thoughts tho
and then we can discuss and analyze it . smile.gif


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eddiecat
post Apr 28 2008, 12:43 PM
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Thanx a lot!
I will do as you said.
As you might have noticed I post much less now,
but that's only because now I know what to practice,
and believe me... it's a lot!!! laugh.gif
All the questions I had and need to work on
have been answered.
No space for further questions, at least for now!
However, good luck for all your stuff
and thank you always.
Eddie
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 28 2008, 01:05 PM
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As Muris says it's very common to see players drop some of the notes in an extended chord. Part of the thing with extended chords is to use those notes that emphasise the chord and its extension rather then play all the possible theoretical notes of the chord Eddie. This becomes an even bigger deal as most of us are limited to six strings AND have to come up with a comfortable fingering of an extended chord. If you play with other musicians just playing some of the notes becomes important, for instance if a bass player is covering the root note you can drop the root from the chord and play the 3rd, 5th and extension, or change the inversion. Sometimes both of you playing he root just ends up over emphasising it and it starts to sound too busy/congested - sometimes less is more as it sonically makes the listener fill in the gaps.



Cheers,
Tony


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eddiecat
post Jun 6 2008, 02:04 PM
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Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes! huh.gif
Is it so?

Ciao
Eddie
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Oxac
post Jun 6 2008, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (eddiecat @ Jun 6 2008, 03:04 PM) *
Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes! huh.gif
Is it so?

Ciao
Eddie


Where did you get the A from?

Cdim consists of C Eb and Gb


The chord you talked about was a Cdim add 13

which would work in an A# harmonic minor scale.

Yes I believe that is the case with augmented chords.

-EDIT- sorry for hijacking all your treads Muris... Also I updated the scale, I made a mistake.

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jun 6 2008, 05:49 PM


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Muris Varajic
post Jun 6 2008, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (eddiecat @ Jun 6 2008, 03:04 PM) *
Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes! huh.gif
Is it so?

Ciao
Eddie


Only one small mistake Eddie,
Cdim7 has Bbb as 7th,not A.
Of course it sounds just the same
but if you write it down in notation
you'll get Bbb cause 7th from C has to start with B,so Bbb is double flat 7th.
And spot on,just like those Diminished 7th chords
we have similar thing with Augmentative chords.
Only difference is that we have 4 dim7 chords with same sounding notes
and 3 aug chords with same sounding notes.
Well done Eddie,good conclusion!! smile.gif

No worries about hijacking tho Oxac,you're doing just fine wink.gif


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Oxac
post Jun 6 2008, 06:00 PM
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Now I am confused. Because depending if you are in A# harmonic minor. Oh, what would that be called what C as a root... C locrian with a raised 6th? or in C diminshed scale you Dim7 will be different.

In C locrian with a raised 6th Dim7 would be C Eb Gb Bb
In C diminished it would be C Eb Gb Bbb, which contains the same notes as Dim add 13 or Dim add 6 in C locrian with a raised 6th.

EDIT: Spelling.

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jun 6 2008, 06:01 PM


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eddiecat
post Jun 6 2008, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Oxac @ Jun 6 2008, 07:00 PM) *
Now I am confused. Because depending if you are in A# harmonic minor. Oh, what would that be called what C as a root... C locrian with a raised 6th? or in C diminshed scale you Dim7 will be different.

In C locrian with a raised 6th Dim7 would be C Eb Gb Bb
In C diminished it would be C Eb Gb Bbb, which contains the same notes as Dim add 13 or Dim add 6 in C locrian with a raised 6th.

EDIT: Spelling.


Hi Oxac.
In C locrian the arpeggio it works over is not a dim7, it's a min7 b5.
In other words you flatten the 5th of a min7 chord.
To get the 7th of a dim chord you have to add a minor third to the 5th of the chord:
C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (my A note).
I hope it's correct...
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Muris Varajic
post Jun 6 2008, 06:52 PM
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I was not actually talking about scales,
harmonic minor or any locrian,
I was talking ONLY about dim7 chords. smile.gif
In other words,C Eb Gb and Bbb is C dim7,
C Eb Gb and A is A dim7 but in first inversion.
Hope I didn't make huge confusion tho. wink.gif


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Oxac
post Jun 6 2008, 07:03 PM
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what I ment was: When you build chords, you have a scale. Then you take the root, the third of the root and the third of the third. Then you get the root, third and the fifth, a simple triad.

In dim, you have a minor third and a flattened fifth, compared to a major triad. In the scale, you still have a root, a third and a fifth.

I was talking about my particular scales. In C dimished scale you have the root C, the minor triad, Eb, the fifth (which happens to be flat) Gb and you get the seventh Bbb.

In C locrian with a raised 6th. (I wanted the raised sixth so it would contain C Eb Gb and A)
If you build it up in the same way as in C diminished scale, you will get a C Dim7 with a different 7. This is what confuses me.

Actually, in C locrian you will only get Cdim if you build it up like that. In C locrian you won't even be able to get the Bbb or a "normal" fifth, because they're not within that scale.

So if I get this right. C dim7 consists of C Eb Gb and Bbb, even if Bbb isn't the 7th note from the root? Instead of C Eb Gb and the 7th note away from the root.

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jun 6 2008, 07:05 PM


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Muris Varajic
post Jun 6 2008, 07:27 PM
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The point is,Bbb IS 7th from C,
double flatted tho cause that's what 7th looks like in dim7 chord.
note A would be 6th,just take a look at notation. smile.gif


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Oxac
post Jun 6 2008, 08:07 PM
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So correct me if I'm wrong. The name of the seventh is derived from the original scale. Like maj 7 from MAJOR seven. Which is the seventh note in the ionian scale, B in C ionian. 7 is from the minor scale, Bb. The seventh in C diminished is A or, Bbb. Therefore all dim7 is 9 semitones above the root. Just like all maj 7ths are 11 semitones above the root.

Thank you a lot Muris, I wouldn't have gotten it without your help.


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Muris Varajic
post Jun 7 2008, 01:33 AM
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Ok,I'm gonna try to keep it simple.
You are saying that A OR Bbb is 7th in C diminished 7.
Well,it can be just one note I'm afraid and that would be Bbb. smile.gif
Main notes(no sharp or flat) are C D E F G A and B.
It's fine setup cause we were talking about C dim7.
Now,those 7 notes are degrees/intervals as follows:
C-C prime (perfect)
C-D second (major)
C-E third (major)
C-F fourth (perfect)
C-G fifth (perfect)
C-A sixth (major)
C-B seventh (major)

I guess you have read some notation Oxac
cause this approach is mostly related to notation.
Each note,as you go up using C major scale per example,
is another spot higher in notation sheet.
That defines intervals as well.
So if you're counting from C as a root
then you have few options in 7th interval,
major 7th,minor 7th,sharp 7th(rarely used tho cause it's just like octave)
flat 7th etc.
But each of these seventh has to start with letter B,
this is pure theory tho,you can call it whatever you want
but in well educated circle of musicians it goes like this. smile.gif


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Oxac
post Jun 7 2008, 10:27 AM
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Thanks for your patience Muris, I feel like I was a tad too slow here. I had no Idea about that the notation was applied to the intervals. I just thought of each line, gap as a named note while # and b made it sharp or flat. This will help my sight reading as well. I can't thank you enough Muris, especially since buying your CD is more beneficial for me tongue.gif

-edit- spelling

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jun 7 2008, 01:42 PM


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Muris Varajic
post Jun 7 2008, 02:19 PM
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You're welcome. smile.gif

Yeah,it's mostly related to notation and it's good to know
these things,specially for sight reading as you said.
Many self-thought musicians play all these chords
without knowing this theory topic including lots of flats or sharp.
But still they are very good and doable players which is most important. wink.gif


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