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> Queston For Carlos (or Anyone Else Interested)
fkalich
post Feb 29 2008, 07:07 PM
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Your song Carlos "Sweet Melodies..." brought this up. I know nothing about Guitar Pro. But it seems to me that the Guitar Pro file on this song seems to pick up subtle things in your rhythm, that it does not play the notes quite mechanically as they are stated on the score. I feel that I hear slight nuances that go beyond that, that really capture some of the rhythmic essence of the song in the lesson (as you play it).

Is this psychological, or does Guitar Pro actually digitize from your recording and capture the more subtle nuances, just showing the score as a best approximation of what the song (as a music score)? I would think that the sound coming out of Guitar Pro would be more mechanical sounding than it is if it was based (exactly) on the printed score.

I am not sure if this is the case or if I am just psychologically making it sound in my head how I think it should sound.
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Hisham Al-Sanea
post Feb 29 2008, 11:04 PM
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its an a vertual wav sound instead midi thats coming fro RES when you press this RES you will lestento midi as a wav sounds thats all man.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Feb 29 2008, 11:26 PM
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I realld don't know what you are talking about... blink.gif


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Owen
post Feb 29 2008, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Feb 29 2008, 10:07 AM) *
Is this psychological, or does Guitar Pro actually digitize from your recording and capture the more subtle nuances, just showing the score as a best approximation of what the song (as a music score)? I would think that the sound coming out of Guitar Pro would be more mechanical sounding than it is if it was based (exactly) on the printed score.


I dont think Guitar Pro can digitise a score at all. Otherwise writing tab would be a hell of a lot easier...

As far as I'm aware it's based entirely on the printed score.

I think You're imaginging things wink.gif biggrin.gif


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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE (Owen @ Feb 29 2008, 04:58 PM) *
I dont think Guitar Pro can digitise a score at all. Otherwise writing tab would be a hell of a lot easier...

As far as I'm aware it's based entirely on the printed score.

I think You're imaginging things wink.gif biggrin.gif


Well gabriel did not undertand me, and i did not understand hisham, so I will go with Owen here. Sad state of affairs.

So you are saying that the GP scores are entered manually? Surprises me. However on thinking about it, it would take a bit of AI for the computerto be able to figure it out. Doable, but a bit sophisticated. I have not used GP and am not aware if the inexpensive software has reached that level of sophisitication. Sounds like no.
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DeepRoots
post Mar 1 2008, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 1 2008, 12:22 AM) *
Well gabriel did not undertand me, and i did not understand hisham, so I will go with Owen here. Sad state of affairs.

So you are saying that the GP scores are entered manually? Surprises me. However on thinking about it, it would take a bit of AI for the computerto be able to figure it out. Doable, but a bit sophisticated. I have not used GP and am not aware if the inexpensive software has reached that level of sophisitication. Sounds like no.


Gp5 notes and ryhtms can either be entered manually (choosing note length value then choosing where note is used on the neck) or with a midi instrument (no experience with that though sorry).

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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 01:38 AM
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QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Feb 29 2008, 06:27 PM) *
Gp5 notes and ryhtms can either be entered manually (choosing note length value then choosing where note is used on the neck) or with a midi instrument (no experience with that though sorry).


ok, but can the analog guitar sound be converted into midi digital format?


edit: typo

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 1 2008, 01:40 AM
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We all write GP files manually,
you can import MIDI into GP(using some Roland pickup and synth to catch notes you're playing on the guitar)
but it's not that clean and useful tracking.




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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 02:02 AM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 29 2008, 06:40 PM) *
We all write GP files manually,
you can import MIDI into GP(using some Roland pickup and synth to catch notes you're playing on the guitar)
but it's not that clean and useful tracking.


thanks muris. midi is old, I suspect that the interface is not capable of handing such a task. Really good musicianship is of course very subtle in its nuances, and only approximated by the notes you see in a score.

take for example the rolling triplet thing you do in a few lessons. clapton and others did that also, nobody around here else that i have heard do it. let me look at the gp score to your "B Major Intermediate"....

Ok, in section 5, you will see the first half scored about the same as the second half. But in fact the rhythm of the second half is that rolling "rhythm" I mention. I actually think of it as a more rolling triplet thing than a 4/4 thing. I figured that guy out actually, normally it is stopped on a longer end note as you do, but if you continue it out, it actually gos on for 96 notes before it circles back to where you started from.

But there is more to it, that is difficult to digitized. For example, I think that Gilbert often compresses his note groups some, spaces them a bit even at fast speed. Very few can do that, and even not knowing exactly what the midi API is, I figure it is old, and limited, and would be incapable of dealing with something like that.


edit: typo

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 1 2008, 02:06 AM
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"Rolling" triplets,haven't heard of that before,
my vocabulary gets richer every day,thanks Fkalich. biggrin.gif


Edit:Oups,just checked it out,those aren't triplets at all Fkalich,
just regular 16th...Slow video 5,tapping part,right? unsure.gif

This post has been edited by Muris: Mar 1 2008, 02:14 AM


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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 29 2008, 07:06 PM) *
"Rolling" triplets,haven't heard of that before,
my vocabulary gets richer every day,thanks Fkalich. biggrin.gif


Edit:Oups,just checked it out,those aren't triplets at all Fkalich,
just regular 16th...Slow video 5,tapping part,right? unsure.gif


yes, 3rd and 4th bar of that tapping part.

well depends how you look at it. I can capture that sound, it has a particular rhythm to it. I could upload an example, here, but lazy, just assume I capture it correctly.

in my mind I look at it more as triplets in a fashion,seems like the accenting tends to go that way. in my mind I tend to look at it as 10 triplets follow by 2 notes, repeated, repeated, all three 32 note parts starting on a different note. Then it repeats. Just the way I look at it, my abstraction of it. I don't think it is exactly triplets, but not exactly 4/4 either. Just an example where the limitations of musical scoring can't really deal with the reality, you have to capture it by ear.

I don't feel that any notation really captures things. that is why I tend to imagine a Robot like Bender playing when I hear Guitar Pro. Real playing is much too complex to be captured with the limits of the language of musically notation. It can only be approximated. Except for those who play like Bender the Robot, it does a good job there.

edit: so as not to be more confusing than I can't help but be, in your lesson, the way I look at it is that you play 5 rolling triplets (rolling like a river, with butterflies), and the 15th note is played with an accent of sorts, then you do it again. that is the way I look at it.

Nobody ever keeps playing that rhythm to the 96 note end (where you can start again). They end it in some fashion earlier, as you did.

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Muris Varajic
post Mar 1 2008, 02:41 AM
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It is 4/4,16th notes,it's matter of grouping/accents,but still 4/4,16th notes.
You have groups of 3 notes,that removes accent from first note of the beat.
But those aren't triplets of any kind. smile.gif

But you're right about capturing,it's hard to capture everything by notation,
those micro movements we all do while playing.

Still,we have to play as near as possible to notation,
at least for the lessons we're making. wink.gif

This post has been edited by Muris: Mar 1 2008, 02:41 AM


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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 29 2008, 07:41 PM) *
It is 4/4,16th notes,it's matter of grouping/accents,but still 4/4,16th notes.
You have groups of 3 notes,that removes accent from first note of the beat.
But those aren't triplets of any kind. smile.gif

But you're right about capturing,it's hard to capture everything by notation,
those micro movements we all do while playing.

Still,we have to play as near as possible to notation,
at least for the lessons we're making. wink.gif



see above, you forgot the butterflies and river part.

I know what you are saying, not criticizing. you have to notate it some way, and follow conventions. but I like your play, and what I like, I really try to capture by ear. it is like that with most (if not all) of the teachers. most (if not all) of you have really interesting subtle rhythms to your play, like good artists, and one has to capture that by ear if one really wants to capture it.

i edited this, we all have our favorites, but all the teachers have things to capture in this regard if you pay attention and listen closely.



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Muris Varajic
post Mar 1 2008, 02:55 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 1 2008, 02:47 AM) *
see above, you forgot the butterflies and river part.


No need for that,I'm only trying to explain difference between triplet and group of 3 notes,16th or whatever.

If you're thinking of accents,that is groove actually.
You can have tons of different grooves in simple 4/4 bar, just by using different accents.
Accents in bar=Groove.

Tho I think you didn't start the tread because of groove but because of that "human" move.
Impossible to write it down 100% correct,absolutely.


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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 29 2008, 07:55 PM) *
No need for that,I'm only trying to explain difference between triplet and group of 3 notes,16th or whatever.

If you're thinking of accents,that is groove actually.
You can have tons of different grooves in simple 4/4 bar, just by using different accents.
Accents in bar=Groove.

Tho I think you didn't start the tread because of groove but because of that "human" move.
Impossible to write it down 100% correct,absolutely.


As I said, good for Robot music. Actually I feel that some people I knew growing up played like that, and my theory is that they tried to closely to follow the mathematical abstraction and became mechanical because of that, and not real interesting to listen to. Bender would enjoy it more.

To me it is like a Taoist proverb about words, comparing them to the fish basket, you use it to capture the fish, but once you have the fish, the basket is useless. You did not go fishing to bring home a basket. I use the notes, but mostly just look at the tab, I get the rhythm by listening carefully, sometimes slowing it down because often the teachers don't really capture the rhythm in the slow version.

In general you do, and Pavel does, and some others. But not everybody does. Not criticizing. This site is great beyond words. Only one guy walked on water that I know, I don't expect that.
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UncleSkillet
post Mar 1 2008, 03:16 AM
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WOW!!!

I have a headache from reading this. wacko.gif Good night.


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Muris Varajic
post Mar 1 2008, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 1 2008, 03:04 AM) *
because often the teachers don't really capture the rhythm in the slow version.


Spot on Fkalich.
But check this out.
Four 16ths,four 8ths and one 4th note.Then all repeated.
It's almost impossible to play this really slowly and 100% correct,rhythm wise.
We start with 16th and we play them slowly,then 8ths(looong story),
and with 4th human just cannot stand totally in same tempo.
But that doesn't limit you to nail the lesson,right? smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 1 2008, 08:13 PM
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Uhm..I don't see the direction where this disscusion is going, but all I can say is that in Guitar Pro you have a RSE button which emulates the real sound of the guitar, by playing samples triggered by MIDI. GP is a sequencer too. But I prefer NOT to use RSE function because the tempo go berseerk on moments and it doesen't feel right.

No why did I wrote this? Because I think what you heard fkalich listening to that GP file is not some subtle nuances that are "recorded" by the program, tho some programs have wave2MIDI function the technology is not yet developed enough (and GP doesn't even has this feature). So my theory is that what you heard are differences in tempo made by a latency created by your PC in order to load different samples wink.gif


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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 1 2008, 04:56 AM) *
Spot on Fkalich.
But check this out.
Four 16ths,four 8ths and one 4th note.Then all repeated.
It's almost impossible to play this really slowly and 100% correct,rhythm wise.
We start with 16th and we play them slowly,then 8ths(looong story),
and with 4th human just cannot stand totally in same tempo.
But that doesn't limit you to nail the lesson,right? smile.gif


we agree the 2nd time. you should be concerned.
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fkalich
post Mar 1 2008, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Mar 1 2008, 01:13 PM) *
GP doesn't even has this feature). So my theory is that what you heard are differences in tempo made by a latency created by your PC in order to load different samples wink.gif


reasonable explanation, however, I don't think that is correct.

the mind can do things like that. you hear things that you really are not hearing. you know, like a song you hear in your head. and your mind can fool you.

Typically in such situations as this, i listen and watch the notes as they play, and identify group associations. In this case in the first bar there were 14 16th notes followed by an 8th note. To me the first 6 notes were tied with a feel to them, then the next 3, then the next 2, and then the last 4. Four sub rhythms/accents groupings in it. That feel might be a bit different from that of Carlos, or Muris if he played it. But still I think we would be fairly similar sounding in the "groove" we applied to it. But as Muris pointed out, we might look at it abstractly in different ways.

I don't know if everyone learns like this, in this fashion. Just the way I do it. And I think my mind just sort of hears what it wants to hear, the song I am looking for in my head, rather than the actual mechanical play of Guitar Pro. The mind works like that, heck when I was a swimmer, I would swim distance for maybe 40 minutes never stoppiing, doing flip turns, all alone in the water. So I would listen to songs in my head, I would hear them to keep me from being bored. Your mind can just do that.
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