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> Do You Believe In A God Or Gods?
Religion
Do you believe in a God or Gods?
Theist [ 47 ] ** [36.43%]
Agnostic [ 25 ] ** [19.38%]
Atheist [ 44 ] ** [34.11%]
Other [ 13 ] ** [10.08%]
Total Votes: 129
  
The Uncreator
post Jul 1 2010, 04:07 PM
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A lot of people find it hard to believe in evolution, Because they can't - or don't want to - believe that we evolved from single cell organisms, or even monkeys for that matter, It seems too complex.

But evolution is a slow and sluggish vehicle. These changes occur small fractions at a time, and over tens or hundreds of millions of years, And humans only really see things in the perspectives of lifetimes, Not thousands of years, let alone millions and more. It takes a bit of work to "see" things in those great distances of time. But if we take into consideration that our evolution took millions of years, I don't find it hard to believe that we came from (essentially) stardust.

That's just a little thought of mine though.

EDIT

Also, I know some people don't like to think about evolution because it implies there is no afterlife or any similar such concepts. I would like to add that I am not discomforted by this "implication" as it were. To paraphrase Dr. Michio Kaku, "I still find great pleasure in being a child of the universe".

I kind of enjoy thinking of myself as a "child of the universe" laugh.gif

But then again, I am a total sci-fi fanboy so that might not count ph34r.gif
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thefireball
post Jul 1 2010, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jul 1 2010, 09:23 AM) *
Exactly! Evolution is a fact, other issues are steel mysterious but I like the fact that we human are basically millions of years old, and have that long history, it really gives you sense of pride and purpose. During that long times, lots of things can happen and it did happen.


(Note: None of this is meant to be taken wrong. Please do not think I'm trying to start something. I'm just stating what I believe.)
I respect your opinion, but I think the reason we look so similiar to monkeys is because we have a common designer. Same with contractors and designers who build beautiful buildings. I'm sure you've gone down the street of a housing project. A lot of times they look very similiar.

Think about it: We can look at a house and say, "My, my, how beautiful this house is. This house must have been built by a well-experienced person." We say this about a house - we know that they didn't just throw a bunch of bricks, mortar, nails, screws, boards, etc into a pile and set off an explosion - then all of a sudden this house appeared!! We know this even if we had never seen the house being built.

Yet we will turn right around and say that some explosion (big bang) happened - and then - here we are! You realize how small of a chance that could've even happened? You realize that if we were any closer to the sun that summers would be too long and we would die of heat? And that if we were any further from the sun the winters would be too long and we would freeze to death?
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Let's just pretend for a few minutes that you are right. If there is no God, how do you tell right from wrong? Do you decide? Do I? Remember that everybody has their own convictons. We could not possibly let everybody decide what is right and what's wrong. We must have a standard. That's why we have God to tell us what is right and wrong. Murdering, stealing, lusting, adultery, and etc is wrong because God says it's wrong. Not because man said so. Man is fallible. God is not. We can make up our rules all we want - but eventually that will lead to destruction. Bad news.

Also, assuming you're right, think about when you die. I know it's morbid, but everybody's going to die someday. We can't live forever. Then what is our purpose to life? There is no afterlife? We just live and die - and that's it? Does that not scare you that you will become non-existent? That would scare me. That's why I'm glad I don't believe any of that. I have a hope in God who has saved me from eternal punishement because I have put my faith in him and his son. I hope you will too. smile.gif

Peace out. wink.gif


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lcsdds
post Jul 1 2010, 05:43 PM
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I stopped being religious about a year or so ago......it was a VERY difficult process for me to get through. Since then I have been free to look at other possibilities. I really connect with what this guy thinks.......His name is David Icke. Some of it is WAY OUT THERE.....but it seems to make sense to me.


http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/
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fkalich
post Jul 1 2010, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 1 2010, 11:42 AM) *
Yet we will turn right around and say that some explosion (big bang) happened - and then - here we are! You realize how small of a chance that could've even happened? You realize that if we were any closer to the sun that summers would be too long and we would die of heat? And that if we were any further from the sun the winters would be too long and we would freeze to death?
......
standard. That's why we have God to tell us what is right and wrong. Murdering, stealing, lusting, adultery, and etc is wrong because God says it's wrong. Not because man said so. Man is fallible. God is not. We can make up our rules all we want - but eventually that will lead to destruction. Bad news.


Actually there is solid evidence that the bang happened, we have pictures from 200 million years after the occurrence, that validate the theory. Being that the speed of light is limited, we can look into the past like this. Just as when we see the Sun, we are actually looking 8 minutes into the past. Only in this case we are looking about 13.5 billion years into the past.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/t...mapresults.html

Regarding morality, I have seen nothing in my life to indicate that your average religious believer is more ethical in behavior than those who are not. Just because a person recognizes mumbo jumbo when he sees it, does not mean he goes out raping and pillaging.
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Azzaboi
post Jul 1 2010, 08:49 PM
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I'm Christian.

I don't believe any religion is 100%, but most all have the same basic idea and teachs morals. Some just take it too far and yes religion can be taken over into brain washing and control. Everyone needs pick what to believe in, rather than just follow the leader or go and completely ignore it altogether.

QUOTE
if i was a christian.. i would probably commit suicide.. for the purpose of my soul rising to heaven

Christians believe that suicide is a sin, you can't get into heaven from killing yourself. It's like getting a gift from your friend and then destroying it in front of him so next time you hope you will get a bigger gift, just doesn't work. Life is a gift, it's up to you what to make of it.

QUOTE
Actually there is solid evidence that the bang happened

Evolution, big bang theory, etc, has more holes in it than religion. We would of evolved from monkeys, yet some didn't, and even jars of jam would have evolved into something else over the years, rather than sitting on the shelves keeping their original content when sealed. The big bang says everything came from nothing (or how was that object created?), yet you can't make anything from nothing.

The easiest way to think about it would be 'The Sims' pc game, lol. Everything is created with a purpose.

The world was created by God as a playground for his Angels (created into human form).

Time is an illusion of aging. God and Angels don't actually age. Time was invented. God always existed, therefore everything started from something.

The world was given problems. Without problems encountered, achievements wouldn't be as sweet. Every good game is designed to lose, so the win is that much better! Without evil, good would just be netural. Every Yig has a Yang.

Humans where given free will, rather than being zombie robots. Do what you will, learn from your mistake. Develop your abililities. Love each day as a gift. Learn at least one new thing a day. People start taking it all for granted.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 1 2010, 08:54 PM


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Karl-ss
post Jul 1 2010, 08:50 PM
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Meh.. My funniest argument: I grew away from my fantasy friend when I got older.

The concept of a afterlife amuses me, most religion does in the way that it requires constant obedience because of a book filled with.. Pretty much disgusting nonsense, I see religion as mans invention to comprehend what it cannot comprehend. So the whole thing is a MEH, I'd rather have scientists actually figure things out.We also have the "I am so special because I was born into a faith. That means it must be correct", that kinda reminds me of racial extremism in a way. Meh religion has done too much evil towards humanity as a whole. No one is right or wrong here (Sorry Thefireball. Your confidence amuses me tho) it is all a mystery and will remain so for ages. But I'll stick to militant atheism. It does less to impede the human race. Plus wouldnt the idea of some divine being letting Tsunamis, earthquakes, pandemic disease, volcanic eruptions and nasty stuff like that happen be kinda.. Scary?

Edit

P.S Sharia courts. Wolololololo. I like freedom of speech. Oh and I also like sin. It does good things for you.

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Rik Veldhuizen
post Jul 1 2010, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 1 2010, 06:42 PM) *
[
Let's just pretend for a few minutes that you are right. If there is no God, how do you tell right from wrong? Do you decide? Do I? Remember that everybody has their own convictons. We could not possibly let everybody decide what is right and what's wrong. We must have a standard. That's why we have God to tell us what is right and wrong. Murdering, stealing, lusting, adultery, and etc is wrong because God says it's wrong. Not because man said so. Man is fallible. God is not. We can make up our rules all we want - but eventually that will lead to destruction. Bad news.


I see what you're saying, but what if you'd consider the balance that nature strives towards, always, at all times... What you're describing would, in that case, have nothing to do with a God in anyway, just a striving to balance, given that deviations, like immoral actions, would cause an unbalance. Just like air-pressure in nature, it always seeks to be a balance
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superize
post Jul 1 2010, 09:01 PM
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Karl-ss
post Jul 1 2010, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Jul 1 2010, 09:58 PM) *
I see what you're saying, but what if you'd consider the balance that nature strives towards, always, at all times... What you're describing would, in that case, have nothing to do with a God in anyway, just a striving to balance, given that deviations, like immoral actions, would cause an unbalance. Just like air-pressure in nature, it always seeks to be a balance


Wololololo. Well said, plus. You see morals (as in animals not killing eachother randomly/Protecting eachother) in most species. Chimp families for example. Or of course buffalos.


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thefireball
post Jul 1 2010, 10:43 PM
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I personally believe my salvation is secure. Even though suicide is a sin, not even that can make me lose my salvation. It takes the blood of Jesus to save me, and it takes the blood of Jesus to keep me saved. Though I would recommend you not go out and sin like the devil. Salvation is not a license to sin. Salvation is (or should be) a declaration of your living for Christ - not Satan. I will lose blessings from the Lord when I sin.

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Jul 1 2010, 02:58 PM) *
I see what you're saying, but what if you'd consider the balance that nature strives towards, always, at all times... What you're describing would, in that case, have nothing to do with a God in anyway, just a striving to balance, given that deviations, like immoral actions, would cause an unbalance. Just like air-pressure in nature, it always seeks to be a balance


There is more than enough grace (a gift from God) to cover our sins, if we would but confess (admit) them.


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fkalich
post Jul 2 2010, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 1 2010, 02:49 PM) *
Evolution, big bang theory, etc, has more holes in it than religion. We would of evolved from monkeys, yet some didn't, and even jars of jam would have evolved into something else over the years, rather than sitting on the shelves keeping their original content when sealed. The big bang says everything came from nothing (or how was that object created?), yet you can't make anything from nothing.
........
Time is an illusion of aging. God and Angels don't actually age. Time was invented. God always existed, therefore everything started from something.


Regarding Evolution, big bang theory, you are writing something that just keeps being repeated, even though it makes no sense, and many people just believe it because they just keep hearing it. In fact there are no significant holes in Evolution, Origin of the Universe, General Relativity, Quantum Physics, etc. All have been solidly proven in a rigorous scholarly sense, with a few remaining issues (none of which support your arguments).

Time does exist, it is just a direction in 4 dimensional time/space. The same basic rules apply to the time direction as to the 3 spacial directions, we don't see that, or most don't because as a mammal, it was not necessary to see things that way, for survival purposes. In fact, we are always moving at a combined speed of of about 186,000 miles per second in all 4 directions. Because light goes at that speed, light waves are always at the same instance in time. If we were to be able to move like in Star Trek, time would slow down for us relative to a observer not moving with us. That is because the combined speeds in all 4 directions is 186,000 miles a second, so if we start moving real fast in a spacial direction relative to some observer, that speed can only be obtained by slowing down on the time vector.

None of this is speculative, any more than the sun rising in the East is speculative. It is all proven by empirical evidence that we have seen. Yes, in the first small fraction of a second of the Universe, the laws break down. String theory is trying to solve that issue. But other than that, this stuff is all well establish in a scientific sense.


Again, nobody says we evolved from monkeys, we share a common ancestor. The issues of question dealing with Evolution actually are pretty minor, all the important parts are solidly proven, if a person is willing to accept proof (which many are not). This stuff is well established, and proven universally to any, and I mean any, and I mean any, and I repeat, any serous academic scholar. None of this is speculative.

The only difference in believing in Christianity or any of the other two religions of the book, and believing in the Easter Bunny, is that we are pretty sure that some individual did exist, in whose name the religions were founded. Whereas we are pretty sure there never was any Easter Bunny.

Regarding morality and ethics in the sense we understand them, I have seen nothing to convince me that the average "believer" has a higher code of behavior than your average atheist. Not in the least, not in any meaningful sense.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Jul 2 2010, 01:39 PM
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Aleksander Sukov...
post Jul 2 2010, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 21 2008, 03:47 PM) *
I am with you about the conditions that are not perfect.
My explanation to that is sin. :-)


I second that explanation wink.gif


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Aleksander Sukov...
post Jul 2 2010, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 23 2008, 12:03 AM) *
It's always a little delicate to share your beliefs with others.
I think mostly because when you have strong beliefs about something, which are certitudes for you, you sound intolerant with others...

But I guess since the topic is clear, it's appropriate to tell what your beliefs are here and I would feel wrong not sharing with you. I don't want to sound like I know it all, because I don't. I also don't want to sound like I am better than anyone else. I think quite the opposite.

I'm a Christian. I think there are a lot of misunderstanding on what that means. The Church is to blame too. I think even in the Church, there are a lot of misunderstanding here.

Here what being Christian means to me on a daily basis from my personal experience. I am a sinner. No matter how hard I try, I always end up to that conclusion, I am a sinner and I do what is hurtful. Even when I think I am doing good, I realize that my motives are not pure. I know that the concept of sin is not very popular, and many say that sin is relative.. But from my experience it's not. Guilt is not something that my brain just makes up.. I think it's proof that man has that knowledge of good and evil.

Because of that sin which we chose, there is a separation between us and God. There is nothing I can do to get back in the right place, nothing I can do to deserve God's favor. But I believe with all my heart that because God loved us so much, he gave his only son Jesus to take the punishment of our sin on himself. Accepting that free gift by giving our hearts to Jesus means that we are no longer living enslaved to sin and its punishment which is death. But it means that we now belong to Christ, hence the name "Christian". That does not make me good or better, not at all.. But that makes Him in me shine.

Those are my beliefs and only hope. :-)


Exactly what every Christian should think like smile.gif

Btw, I'm Orthodox Christian smile.gif

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Azzaboi
post Jul 2 2010, 10:34 PM
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You say Santa - it was by Coka Cola as a marketing imagine created from the real christain Saint Nick who donated toys to the less fortunate.

You say Easter Bunny and Chocolate Eggs - it was created to cover the real symbol of the egg which is the birth of Christ.

You say Evolution - it was created from somewhere wasn't it? The next evolution world cycle will be 2012, hope the world doesn't end in your case? Evolution can't explain why birds fly but we don't, we all should evolve the same in the same environment. There are hundreds of different animals like giraffes and elephants which can't be explained through Evolution. Female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and cannot have any effect upon her offspring. DNA repair process proves the evolutionary theory is wrong because it attempts to repair any changes.

You say Time - time is only a calculation from man, it's not even correctly calculated, leap years? They have found more than 4 dimensions in fact there are about 10 or 11 dimensions - most we still don't know much about.

Everything is created as a blur of the original, but the original still remains.
Christain religion just so happens to be mixed into everything one way or another.

So if your Christian and it's all just a big lie from thousands of years (just like that american moon landing) you are still believing something for a greater good, and teach your children good morals, standards, the act of helping others and giving (so long not been corrupted).

If your not Christian, you tell lies to cover up the true meaning of Christmas, Easter and almost all the holidays, etc (and know it's a full out lie).

It's up to you what to make of it?

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 2 2010, 10:54 PM


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Karl-ss
post Jul 2 2010, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 2 2010, 11:34 PM) *
You say Santa - it was by Coka Cola as a marketing imagine created from the real christain Saint Nick who donated toys to the less fortunate.

You say Easter Bunny and Chocolate Eggs - it was created to cover the real symbol of the egg which is the birth of Christ.

You say Evolution - it was created from somewhere wasn't it? The next evolution world cycle will be 2012, hope the world doesn't end in your case? Evolution can't explain why birds fly but we don't, we all should evolve the same in the same environment. There are hundreds of different animals like giraffes and elephants which can't be explained through Evolution. Female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and cannot have any effect upon her offspring. DNA repair process proves the evolutionary theory is wrong because it attempts to repair any changes.

You say Time - time is only a calculation from man, it's not even correctly calculated, leap years? They have found more than 4 dimensions in fact there are about 10 or 11 dimensions - most we still don't know much about.

Everything is created as a blur of the original, but the original still remains.
Christain religion just so happens to be mixed into everything one way or another.

So if your Christian and it's all just a big lie from thousands of years (just like that american moon landing) you are still believing something for a greater good, and teach your children good morals, standards, the act of helping others and giving (so long not been corrupted).

If your not Christian, you tell lies to cover up the true meaning of Christmas, Easter and almost all the holidays, etc (and know it's a full out lie).

It's up to you what to make of it?


TL;dr most stuff as I cant be assed arguing evolution anywhere else than youtube. But the christmas thing. Christmas was a rip off of a pagan feast. Also not evolutionary cycle but solar cycle.


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Azzaboi
post Jul 2 2010, 11:15 PM
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Note: I didn't say Christmas but Santa.

I do like to see both sides of the fence before assuming anything...

Yes, I know Roman pagans celebrated between December 17-25, singing naked, raping, and ending on the 25th destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering a innocent man or woman. Sick!

Popular myth puts his birth on December 25th in the year 1 C.E. The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth. This was just a guess based around this date. Hmm, Jesus was also innocent and brutally murdered to save the sins of mankind. Make sense for humans to label the same random day, the ending of suffering and total evil.

Christmas Tree - Pagans worshipped the trees.

The Origin of Mistletoe - Norse mythology recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow.

The Origin of Christmas Presents (what I was talking about before) - Christian gift-giving of started by Saint Nicholas.

Truth is, we really have no idea if it's the correct date or not for Christmas. It is probably not! Christmas is a lie. December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered. There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25th.

(evil, more evil or one good act of kindness - what do you celebrate?)

And yes, you are correct, for the solar cycle not evolutionary cycle, that was my mistake.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 2 2010, 11:24 PM


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post Jul 2 2010, 11:51 PM
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Now, if God is benevolent (and omnipotent for that matter), why do innocent people die from a natural process (all created by God, according to you) such as disease?

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Azzaboi
post Jul 3 2010, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE
Now, if God is benevolent (and omnipotent for that matter), why do innocent people die from a natural process (all created by God, according to you) such as disease?


Good question, one I've puzzled over myself before...

After all, what have little children done to deserve punishment or suffering? Nothing. Yet, they suffer. If God is all loving and all powerful, why doesn't He stop this injustice from happening?


In Adam, all die. In Christ, all are made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

Adam represented all of mankind. When he fell into sin, the Bible teaches that we fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21).

The Bible says that all people are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

When he fell, we inherited not only a sinful nature from Adam by simply being born, but we also inherited a world affected by sin as well, death, decay, disasters, etc. It didn't start out this way.

Since we are made in the image of God and we are not robots without free will, God has given to us the stature and responsibility of managing what has been given to us.

We just so happen to really suck at it...

If someone wants to say that it is unfair for Adam to represent us in the Fall, then they must also conclude that it is unfair for Jesus to represent us on the cross. This latter case would mean that we would not have salvation. This is why God set up the idea of representation, so that we could be saved.

Christian's believe in life after death, so all those innocents death may not by so in vain, would not of sinned and therefore may live in afterlife. If one has asked forgiveness and accepted Christ as their personal Savior, then we need not fear death. We will live forever in Heaven where there is no death or suffering.

You will be surprised at the number of people which turn to God at near death, maybe too late for some. However, people can also pray for the soul of others.



Think of air if you will (maybe a bad example, but just for an idea)...

You can't see air, sometimes there's wind which gives you a feeling, but most the time you can't really even feel it all around you. How do you know it's even there? You breath it, without you die. But even with the air you still can die, but it stays with you. Under water or under earth you still have some oxygen, but go too far away into space and there's no more oxygen. Oxygen does still get removed from earth, but saved by trees creating it back (call that forgiven). One of the last things which happens when your body is dead is the oxygen in your body leaves and joins the rest (call that the spirit). Same deal with your soul, the body is just a weak shell which can't survive with it, but when you leave the world, no matter the time the soul will still live on forever.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 3 2010, 12:38 AM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 3 2010, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 3 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Good question, one I've puzzled over myself before...

After all, what have little children done to deserve punishment or suffering? Nothing. Yet, they suffer. If God is all loving and all powerful, why doesn't He stop this injustice from happening?


In Adam, all die. In Christ, all are made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

Adam represented all of mankind. When he fell into sin, the Bible teaches that we fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21).

The Bible says that all people are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

When he fell, we inherited not only a sinful nature from Adam by simply being born, but we also inherited a world affected by sin as well, death, decay, disasters, etc. It didn't start out this way.

Since we are made in the image of God and we are not robots without free will, God has given to us the stature and responsibility of managing what has been given to us.

We just so happen to really suck at it...

If someone wants to say that it is unfair for Adam to represent us in the Fall, then they must also conclude that it is unfair for Jesus to represent us on the cross. This latter case would mean that we would not have salvation. This is why God set up the idea of representation, so that we could be saved.

Christian's believe in life after death, so all those innocents death may not by so in vain, would not of sinned and therefore may live in afterlife. If one has asked forgiveness and accepted Christ as their personal Savior, then we need not fear death. We will live forever in Heaven where there is no death or suffering.

You will be surprised at the number of people which turn to God at near death, maybe too late for some. However, people can also pray for the soul of others.



Think of air if you will (maybe a bad example, but just for an idea)...

You can't see air, sometimes there's wind which gives you a feeling, but most the time you can't really even feel it all around you. How do you know it's even there? You breath it, without you die. But even with the air you still can die, but it stays with you. Under water or under earth you still have some oxygen, but go too far away into space and there's no more oxygen. Oxygen does still get removed from earth, but saved by trees creating it back. One of the last things which happens when your body is dead is the oxygen in your body leaves and joins the rest. Same deal with your soul, the body is just a weak shell which can't survive with it, but when you leave the world, no matter the time it will still live on forever.


Although I respect the amount of time you spent writing your well worded reply, I must - unfortunately - say that you did not answer my question. You immediately skipped to the conclusion that an "innocent" person would be a child. Fair enough. Let's say this child was from Kenya and stillborn. Does this child believe in God? Is this child allowed into Heaven? Does ignorance infer the right to Christian (or any Semitic) privileges?

Ignoring what I just wrote. Most Christians would answer "People die because of sin. Maybe not our own sin, but because Adam hath sinned." This I find funny, because if God the Almighty predestines death, why in the world did he also *invent* the human immune system?

And please, do not preach with quotes of the Bible. The veracity and authenticity of that Work cannot be proven, nor can the existence of God himself. I am not interested in Biblical references, I am interested in personal insight and understanding.

I believe, like Muris (who some would consider a Divine being in the art of guitar playing) that honesty, integrity, decency and all other positive -y words you can find, are what defines a human being. Whether he believes in one, two, eight, fifty or no Gods should not change his right to peace and respect. Most dictators were probably religious, because, well everybody was at the time (more or less), yet they performed acts of cruelty and inhumanity. Therefore, as aforementioned, religion does not imply honesty, nor integrity, nor decency, nor any other posiitive -y word you can find.

I do not mean to offend any believers with my lengthy and inconsiderate reply. I do not consider myself a cruel human being. I have values in life, very similar to that of a Christian. One of the only things which separates me from the common Christian is that I do not believe God exists UNTIL somebody can prove that he does. Yes, we can't prove the Big Bang 100%, alright Evolution has been proven to be a valid truth (not theory). There are arguments back and forth, so we remain ignorant of the truth. I would consider myself, in that sense, an agnostic. However, the fact that God lets innocent people die just falls into irony. What if I were Christian and died of Tuberculosis? Would my Atheist best friend also be admitted past the Heavenly gates?

Lack of evidence of the non-existence of God does not prove his existence. Don't listen to me. Listen to more clever people like Pat Condell (YouTube), maybe you will even be entertained.


It was possible to be a good person prior to the convention of religion.


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MickeM
post Jul 3 2010, 01:42 AM
Post #200


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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 1 2010, 09:31 PM) *
Actually there is solid evidence that the bang happened, we have pictures from 200 million years after the occurrence, that validate the theory.

Can you tell me who lit the fuse to this big explosion?


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