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> Do You Believe In A God Or Gods?
Religion
Do you believe in a God or Gods?
Theist [ 47 ] ** [36.43%]
Agnostic [ 25 ] ** [19.38%]
Atheist [ 44 ] ** [34.11%]
Other [ 13 ] ** [10.08%]
Total Votes: 129
  
Alexiaden93
post Jul 5 2010, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 5 2010, 06:55 AM) *
As I read you, I can see that you are reasonably well read, in a scholarly sense. I can tell the difference. But others say things that make no sense at all, any serious scholar or researcher, one with a reputation in Academic circles, would just roll there eyes at.

It could be said that logic comes from reading, but logic is not limited only to those who are interested in history and culture. I know I may say things that are shocking or can even seem arrogant to others who haven't had the same scholarly interests as myself, but essentially discussion is about sharing ideas, and I am sure everyone participating in this thread, including myself, will have learned something at the end of the day. That's why I like discussion, as long as they don't fall into blind dogma and personal attacks.

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 5 2010, 09:21 AM) *
Alexiaden93
"You sound like some über mutant Free-Mason ! biggrin.gif I believe it was the general view during the Renaissance that the only way to get closer to God was through personal endeavours in the field of knowledge, should it be music, mathematics, science, literature, art in general or what not. I respect your belief... smile.gif"


Actually that's very perceptive! The Gnostics fled under threat of extermination from the Pope and their teachings were eventually absorbed in to organizations such as the Free Masons among others. Good catch!

Having studied history in the French system, we did lightly brush over the Free Masons. These kinds of organisations fascinate me. They have their own system, secrecy is preserved by awesome symbols (eye in the pyramid) which have even been adapted in album artwork by bands such as Iron Maiden for their beauty. Also in the book Angels & Demons by Dan Brown (the sequel of The da Vinci Code) there is an organisation called the Illuminati which is also quite captivating despite their hostile attitude.


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Grmo
post Jul 5 2010, 06:18 PM
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Hey everyone, I've got a suggestion: no one knows the truth. No matter how much you think you know it, you don't. All you can do is speculate, and hopefully realize that no belief or theory currently can provide all the explanations without arbitrary assumptions. So there is really no point in debating this.

I picked "Other", because I don't know, and contrary to the definition of agnosticism (which is that the knowledge is unattainable), I think that it is possible to know. However, I know that trying to accept anything as absolute truth is illogical. If it's just your belief, and you've got nothing to back it up with, then you shouldn't be sharing it, because it's way too easy for your argument to be torn apart, because of the absence of evidence on the side of creationism, and lack of evidence on the side of evolution (there is evidence (like the fossil record), but not enough to solidify it as what really happened). If you can actually back it up with evidence, then sure, but you will reach a dead end eventually, because you can't prove anything for certain.

What I'm saying is this: keep an open mind. We don't know, and that is indisputable. No ideas we have currently can prove how we got here, so let science continue to progress, and perhaps someday, we will know. In the mean time, let's just do what we're here to do: to learn and play guitar, because I'd much rather perfect my sweeping technique than worry with futility about why I'm here to do so.

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Karl-ss
post Jul 5 2010, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 02:50 AM) *
Because he is God and he can choose to do whatever he wants whenever he wants to
If you are mad because he choose to take loved ones-what you are doing is making your will to be God and make those kind of decisions
violating the first command that you shall not have any Gods before me - this includes your self

Did your grandfather believe in God?


You remind me of a individual named Venomfangx...


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tonyparnham
post Jul 5 2010, 08:49 PM
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Hi GRMO,
I agree with what you say in some parts except for God can do what he wants, if he's does its never very good especially when he zapped everybody in the world except Noah's family and a every species on the planet. Where's my metronome?
Regards Tony

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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2010, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE
All the main religions catagorically say that if you don't believe in God or accept Jesus you get to be tortured forever/hell. Over 90% of people in the world are decent nice law abiding citizens who live a good life, just because a large amount of them don't believe in God because God has not given sufficient evidence, do they DESERVE to be tortured forever. Of course not. I have a daughter, if she fell out with me and never spoke to me again would I want to send her to the basement to lock her there forever just because she blanks me. Of course not I would always forgive her because I get my morals from me and I'm only human. Where does God get his morals from, in Christianity for example just because Eve disobeyed him God punished her and all generations thereafter. It's like my daughter taking my favourite chocolate out of the fridge disobeying my instructions so I spank her day after day, but not only that I also spank my two grandsons for what their mother did.
How silly is that. I then decide to have a son a couple of years later to put things right and have him killed so I can forgive my daughter. It's crazy.
I will not be influenced by these so called holy books written by men about a god no one has EVER seen. I get my morals from me I know whats right and whats wrong and I'm very comfortable with that.
Regards Tony


You are thinking backwards about this, just like God you forgive your child and am willing to take him/her back no matter what happened, you would even put your own life on the line for them if necessary. It's the child which has to accept it and come back or leave. Out of anger, sometimes they are lost for a while, sometimes forever. We never damn our own children, but if you shelter them too much they end up not being able to look after themselves and excepting everything handed to them (no one likes a snot nosed kid) so it's a live and learn by mistakes. You teach them along the way and guild them, but in the end it's up to them if they follow. No matter how many times I was told by my parents as a kid the stove is hot, don't touch, I still went ahead and touched to find out for myself. Lesson learnt, won't do that again! As a kid, we might not understand our parents but they know better so we follow and trust them.


QUOTE
I agree with what you say in some parts except for God can do what he wants, if he's does its never very good especially when he zapped everybody in the world except Noah's family and a every species on the planet. Where's my metronome?


It was a flood, the ark was wood (they have even found what they think is remains of that ark, but never confirmed), plants can survive underwater, but only regrow if on land. The flood dried up and they therefore grew again. Maybe there wasn't so many species but then, and evolution does play a part in the development of animals and planet life. We already know about cross breeding animals or plants. Yet humans is a different story.


The real funny thing, is even though I'm a Christian, I still rip things apart to learn the truth. Never simply assume something as fact. You do need a bit of faith as I don't think we'll ever understand 100%, but breaking down small areas and seeing both sides does help.

I don't believe in the Apollo 11 moon landing with 1000s of anomalies which don't add up, and there was also a good reason to fake it.

I don't believe in aliens or UFOs, it's a fact america made UFOs like the stealth helicopter and FDO. Hundreds of experimental coverups.

I do believe in Terminator 2, it was based on facts and spynet is a real company still developing today and has government funding to build automatic robots, they have already created the pilot-less plane and tanks, they are developing a robotic arm for medical treatment. Yes, we are dumb enough to allow technology take over and destroy us all! Just take a look at Microsoft, the next Windows OS is said to be cloud computing (will run just like Skynet network did) and be released in 2012.

Religon is the biggest double sided one of them all. Yet I've pulled it apart and still makes more sense to me being a Christian as it is in everything we do and learn.

We could discuss this for ages.

I also believe never to force people into something, I hate religons or theories being forced upon you. People can get scared by what they don't understand. People hate what is forced on them and it gets rejected anyway, right? God never actually forced it on you, only showed a way.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2010, 10:22 PM


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Marek Rojewski
post Jul 5 2010, 09:03 PM
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Actually if a person has good tools, he can see the marks of human landing on the moon. I love this fact, as it just crushes some "unbelievers", and I can laugh at their ignorance:P


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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2010, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE
Actually if a person has good tools, he can see the marks of human landing on the moon. I love this fact, as it just crushes some "unbelievers", and I can laugh at their ignorance:P


Actually we are still waiting for that... we have not seen the flag (blown away with no air?) and we can't see the footprint. All we have actually see is the crater (which could of been there in the first place) and a dot... If the hubble telescope is powerful enough to see millions of miles away why do we not have a telescope powerful enough to see the footprints and flag on the moon? Telescopes mostly gather light, to make dark things visible, finding the footprint will be impossible with today's technology.

There are crosshairs in all the moon landing images which have be doctored, some missing as if overlapped.

The footprint is in the wrong location.

The Lander weighed 17 tons and sat on top of the sand making no impression but directly next to it footprints can be seen in the sand. There goes the footprint idea all together?

No blast crater or any sign of dust scatter in the images, oops there goes the proof of the telescope even.

The flag doesn't move a millimeter on the moon when saluting the flag. Even without air, etc, and wire holding it across, it stays the same shape crushed in the corner (for thirty minutes of video).

The moon doesn't spin, it is below freezing on one side and too hot on the other and have radiation. Yes, they did have radiation poison, plus one to the facts.

We didn't have the technology back then to make it all the way there, let along document it. Yet there was no more than two-second delay in two-way communications at a distance of a 400,000 km (250,000 miles). There may also be some documentary films where the delay has been edited out?

There was a cold war with the russians, Americans where afraid of nuclear satellites being sent into outta space. They had a space race and had to be the first. If you look into this history you can see why they would fake it. They had also had to explain wasting a lot of tax payers money.

The American Government is well known for their cover stories...

They did make it into earth orbit, but didn't have enough force/fuel to slingshot themselves to the moon, let along come all the way back as planned. So they stayed in orbit, returned and faked the rest at Area 51 where there is satellite images which look like the pretty much like the moon landing. Exposed to radiation while in orbit?

The only fact left is the moon rock sample, which could of been pressurized rock from earth. The rocks brought back from the Moon are identical to rocks collected by scientific expeditions to Antarctica.

This all just amuses me, if you look at something hard enough, you can proof its real or fake in your own mind but everyone else has their own beliefs. No matter the facts, there will always be a counter. Same deal with religion and evolution, etc.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2010, 10:10 PM


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Rik Veldhuizen
post Jul 5 2010, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 09:59 PM) *
You are thinking backwards about this, just like God you forgive your child and am willing to take him/her back no matter what happened, you would never put your own life on the line for them if necessary.


Not sure I understand what you're saying here... If you are saying that a parent would never put their own life on the line for their kids, you're very mistaken... But if you mean they would give up their own life for their kids, I couldn't agree more smile.gif

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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2010, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE
But if you mean they would give up their own life for their kids, I couldn't agree more smile.gif


That is would I mean. I typoed.

We are created in the image of God, we could be called his children. He is willing just like a father or mother to give his own life to protect their kids. We as children most of the time however take it all for granted and ignore, rebel, and even think our parents hate us sometimes. That's why there is a Love/Hate relationship. We don't always get our own way, and we don't get what we want all the time, have to work for it so we learn and develop. Just the same as a loving parent does to better the son/daughter.

Even if it is all just made up (thousands of years), it makes sense in the way we live our lifes to follow it and take the good things from it.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2010, 10:21 PM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 5 2010, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 11:17 PM) *
That is would I mean. I typoed.

We are created in the image of God, we could be called his children. He is willing just like a father or mother to give his own life to protect their kids. We as children most of the time however take it all for granted and ignore, rebel, and even think our parents hate us sometimes. That's why there is a Love/Hate relationship. We don't always get our own way, and we don't get what we want all the time, have to work for it. Just the same as a loving parent does to better the son/daughter.

Even if it is all fake, it makes sense in the way we live our lifes to follow it.

Instead of saying what religion is, why doesn't someone say WHY religion is? mellow.gif


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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2010, 10:32 PM
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WHY religion?

I could ask you, why the 14 pages of rabbling on about it?
Everyone need something to believe, it's human nature to find out things.

I like to think God is a parent figure...

Parents don't like us going bad. Since we sin anyway, there's no way around it except to forgive and they end up taking the wrap for it and paying for the damages. However that doesn't mean your out of the woods, you get grounded boy until you say your sorry!

So does your parent hate you because they grounding you? So it might seem in your eyes at the time? But you still learn from it.

Life is all about learning!
It might be slightly messed up, but the basic idea of most Religions teaches this and life lessons. It also set morals down and to think of others and help in whatever way we can. It's when people being to use it in their advantage to control others it goes all wrong.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2010, 10:39 PM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 5 2010, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 11:32 PM) *
WHY religion?

I could ask you, why the 14 pages of rabbling on about it?
Everyone need something to believe, it's human nature to find out things.

I like to think God is a parent figure...

Parents don't like us going bad. Since we sin anyway, there's no way around it except to forgive and they end up taking the wrap for it and paying for the damages. However that doesn't mean your out of the woods, you get grounded boy until you say your sorry!

So does your parent hate you because they grounding you? So it might seem in your eyes at the time? But you still learn from it.

Life is all about learning!

Now when you say "Life is all about learning!" I somehow get the word "Science" in my head...

However: I have two parents. Why would I need another one? Isn't 18 years of parental guidance enough to learn that thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not have thy way with thy neighbour's wife? I mean after being a child, and having parents (no matter if you're an orphan, atheist or christian) you are one day going to be a parent yourself. And most people, as I said, know what it means to be good. We don't need God for that. We have a Constitution, and if not, another legislation that prevents us from doing bad.

If God's wrath prevents us from doing bad things, why hasn't Osama bin Laden been punished? Why did it take many million deaths before Hitler stopped? It seems like God's wrath is very terrifying, but according to historical facts, it's almost like an empty threat.

Please elaborate your "parent" idea.


AFTERTHOUGHT
And oh, let's not forget the Dark Ages which brought "Life is all about learning!" to a sudden halt, thanks to religion, which somehow enhances learning... I am confused.

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 5 2010, 10:39 PM


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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2010, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE
Isn't 18 years of parental guidance enough to learn that thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not have thy way with thy neighbour's wife?


They are all based from Christain Religion. You are being taught from a religion, done that make it a bad thing? Human made their own laws around them, which weaken it, but again based from the religion.

QUOTE
I mean after being a child, and having parents (no matter if you're an orphan, atheist or christian) you are one day going to be a parent yourself.


God gave you a world and animals, plants, etc to look after, even as a child you could be called a parent (as a parent looks after things). Even when grown up as an actual parent with kids, you still have your own parent don't ya?

QUOTE
If God's wrath prevents us from doing bad things, why hasn't Osama bin Laden been punished? Why did it take many million deaths before Hitler stopped? It seems like God's wrath is very terrifying, but according to historical facts, it's almost like an empty threat.


You have free-will to do what you want. Your parents try to prevent you doing bad things right? Yet you still do them. Sometimes you have to find out the hard way.

If Osama bin Laden was punished, then so could George Bush and the American people for provoking it, New Zealand and other countries for helping out. Anyone in a war, would be wiped out. Anyone stealing, lieing, cheating, murdering, well that's everyone, would be wiped...

Oh wait that already happen in the past with the flood. Not so much an empty threat, but a last option! Man created war, same deal with the dark ages and medieval times. I'm sure you have fight your bro or sisters in the past, does that mean your parents will kill you? Now what happens if you killed him/her, your parents might turn you over even though they still love you deeply? Your parents don't kill you but the electric chair will.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 5 2010, 10:57 PM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 5 2010, 11:11 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 11:56 PM) *
They are all based from Christain Religion. You are being taught from a religion, done that make it a bad thing? Human made their own laws around them, which weaken it, but again based from the religion.



God gave you a world and animals, plants, etc to look after, even as a child you could be called a parent (as a parent looks after things). Even when grown up as an actual parent with kids, you still have your own parent don't ya?



You have free-will to do what you want. Your parents try to prevent you doing bad things right? Yet you still do them. Sometimes you have to find out the hard way.

If Osama bin Laden was punished, then so could George Bush and the American people for provoking it, New Zealand and other countries for helping out. Anyone in a war, would be wiped out. Anyone stealing, lieing, cheating, murdering, well that's everyone, would be wiped...

Oh wait that already happen in the past with the flood. Not so much an empty threat, but a last option! Man created war, same deal with the dark ages and medieval times. I'm sure you have fight your bro or sisters in the past, does that mean your parents will kill you? Now what happens if you killed him/her, your parents might turn you over even though they still love you deeply? Your parents don't kill you but the electric chair will.

Yes laws are based on religion, because the fact that Zeus would zap you with lightning made people think that there was a consequence for committing crime. Now that we have a proper judiciary system, a Constitution in many countries, why do we need God? Man can do fine on his own, and the flood (that apparently wiped out the entire Terrestrial population) is something I would like proved...

And get your history right. The Dark Ages are a result of religion. Oh and about the electric chair... Not everybody in the world lives in Texas.

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 5 2010, 11:18 PM


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Azzaboi
post Jul 5 2010, 11:36 PM
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As I said before:
QUOTE
I also believe never to force people into something, I hate religons or theories being forced upon you. People can get scared by what they don't understand. People hate what is forced on them and it gets rejected anyway, right? God never actually forced it on you, only showed a way.


People just take it too far! It's not the religion itself, but when man controls the religion into getting control when it becomes a bad thing. I realise religion can turn quite bloody in the hands of some.

I'll flick the next question back at you, why do you need a parent? When you can scrape by and live/suvive by yourself? Why do you need friendship, you can still live as a loner all your life? It's a sad, worthless life...

Why are there laws, when you already know right from wrong? Why do you get punished for crime? Why do you get death (or life sentence) for some crimes, but able to get prison/fined/etc and turn your life around for others? Why not all just die, you might just end up doing the same crime again!


As for the flood, explorers are "99.9 percent" sure they've found Noah's ark in Turkey, beneath snow and volcanic debris on Mount Ararat. However, i don't assume it's actual fact, it could be faked.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...ligion-culture/



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tonyparnham
post Jul 6 2010, 10:14 AM
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Hi Azzaboi,
I think you are missing my point here so here's a question;
I don't believe in God like a number of others don't from their response, so I am an aethiest OK, according to your religion what happens to my soul presuming I am still an aethiest when I die?
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Alexiaden93
post Jul 6 2010, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 12:36 AM) *
As I said before:


People just take it too far! It's not the religion itself, but when man controls the religion into getting control when it becomes a bad thing. I realise religion can turn quite bloody in the hands of some.

I'll flick the next question back at you, why do you need a parent? When you can scrape by and live/suvive by yourself? Why do you need friendship, you can still live as a loner all your life? It's a sad, worthless life...

Why are there laws, when you already know right from wrong? Why do you get punished for crime? Why do you get death (or life sentence) for some crimes, but able to get prison/fined/etc and turn your life around for others? Why not all just die, you might just end up doing the same crime again!


As for the flood, explorers are "99.9 percent" sure they've found Noah's ark in Turkey, beneath snow and volcanic debris on Mount Ararat. However, i don't assume it's actual fact, it could be faked.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...ligion-culture/


"A team of evangelical Christian explorers claim they've found the remains of Noah's ark beneath snow and volcanic debris on Turkey's Mount Ararat (map).

But some archaeologists and historians are taking the latest claim that Noah's ark has been found about as seriously as they have past ones—which is to say not very.

"I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for the ark and didn't find it," said Paul Zimansky, an archaeologist specializing in the Middle East at Stony Brook University in New York State."

Amusing.

So why exactly the irrelevant questioning of the need of parents, friends, laws and consequences?

A friend can have all of these, whether you have biological as opposed to theological parents, whether your neighbour is your friend as opposed to Jesus, whether your laws are in the Constitution as opposed to the Bible, and whether the consequences of breaking these laws are controlled by the judiciary system in concordance with the legislated Constitution as opposed to God's wrath (and the right or no right to Salvation).

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 6 2010, 10:50 AM


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Azzaboi
post Jul 6 2010, 10:45 AM
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So your asking will good atheists go to hell?

It says the love of Jesus extends to people who've spent years doing evil things, if they'll only sincerely accept him and turn away from them, they will be saved.

However, we can only assume what hell is...

Hell has traditionally been thought of as a place of eternal torment. It has been argued that the word translated in many Bible versions as eternal actually more commonly means age-long. There are verses that suggest that everyone will eventually be "saved", and so it is argued that hell is a place where people will go for a time in order that they are induced to repent sincerely of their former ways, after which they can enter heaven. (grounded by your parent maybe?)

However, there are Bible verses that suggest that some souls will be annihilated. Also there is a lake of fire which souls is casted into. (some souls will be beyond the point of being saved)

Even if hell isn't real, you create your own hell within yourself anyway from the things your've done, eating away at you. People regret things that they did and must live with for the rest of their life. Some get to the point of emotional creating their own hell here on earth. (you end up punishing yourself anyway)

It's also argued by some that hell will not be a place of pain, as traditionally thought, but a place of eternal shame at being separated from God because of sin, the degree of shame and separation corresponding to the amount of sin committed on earth.

It is also said there will be a Judgement Day... At the time of Judgement Day there will be fair warning for all. In several places it says that on that day, people will be judged according to their actions, and those who have done good deeds will go to heaven, while people who have rejected Christ and done evil will go to hell.


QUOTE
So why exactly the irrelevant questioning of the need of parents, friends, laws and consequences?


Questions to get you thinking, God is like your parents, God simply wants your friendship, God wants you to follow his laws for your own good. Without those things, you can still struggle on, but it's not much a life. If you think man can do fine on his own, you clearly have been living in a different world than this one! Not one day goes by in which we don't screw up.


This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 6 2010, 11:02 AM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 6 2010, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 11:45 AM) *
So your asking will good atheists go to hell?

...

It is also said there will be a Judgement Day... At the time of Judgement Day there will be fair warning for all. In several places it says that on that day, people will be judged according to their actions, and those who have done good deeds will go to heaven, while people who have rejected Christ and done evil will go to hell.

I am not asking if good atheists will go to Hell. And it is also said there will NOT be a Judgement Day.


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Staffy
post Jul 6 2010, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 6 2010, 11:48 AM) *
I am not asking if good atheists will go to Hell. And it is also said there will NOT be a Judgement Day.


What is hell anyway? In my belief hell must be to never die - in contrary to what the bible says. Living a life like this on earth forever and never get a relief must be pure hell by my means. Imagine practicing the same scales for some 2000 years, having the same girlfriend and listen to the angels every day.... I will be bored in just a couple of years. I'd rather go for the Hell in the bible with some fire, sodom & gomorra, some action and a life in sin..... biggrin.gif

Seriously, heaven must be to die and then REMAIN dead.

Just my 2 cents.

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