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> Do You Believe In A God Or Gods?
Religion
Do you believe in a God or Gods?
Theist [ 47 ] ** [36.43%]
Agnostic [ 25 ] ** [19.38%]
Atheist [ 44 ] ** [34.11%]
Other [ 13 ] ** [10.08%]
Total Votes: 129
  
tonyparnham
post Jul 10 2010, 01:56 PM
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Hi Abazzoi,
I think I will bow out of the discussion now but you did say 'what bible am I reading' and the answer is 'the same one as you' because these atrocities commited by god are in every christian, jewish and Islamic bible, so like I say you hav'nt read it.
DO YOU TAKE YOUR MORALS FROM THIS GOD? I dont think so? I believe you are a pretty decent guy like the other chaps on this site after seeing the responses, but here are just some of God's atrocities which added up in the whole chapters comes to about 2,000,000 people and I've included the books and chapters so check it yourself if you don't believe me;

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."
EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.
EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.
EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."
LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."
LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.
LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)
NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.
NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.
NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

OR IS IT THE SCRIBLINGS OF SOME PRIMITIVE DESERT SEERS.

Regards Tony
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jstcrsn
post Jul 10 2010, 02:01 PM
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QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 10 2010, 01:54 PM) *
It's up to you to make sure pressing "delete" in life won't be necessary. smile.gif

where were you 25 years ago

QUOTE (tonyparnham @ Jul 10 2010, 01:56 PM) *
Hi Abazzoi,
I think I will bow out of the discussion now but you did say 'what bible am I reading' and the answer is 'the same one as you' because these atrocities commited by god are in every christian, jewish and Islamic bible, so like I say you hav'nt read it.
DO YOU TAKE YOUR MORALS FROM THIS GOD? I dont think so? I believe you are a pretty decent guy like the other chaps on this site after seeing the responses, but here are just some of God's atrocities which added up in the whole chapters comes to about 2,000,000 people and I've included the books and chapters so check it yourself if you don't believe me;

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."
EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.
EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.
EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."
LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."
LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.
LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)
NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.
NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.
NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

OR IS IT THE SCRIBLINGS OF SOME PRIMITIVE DESERT SEERS.

Regards Tony


sorry to but in, but you also need to read romans chapter nine
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Alexiaden93
post Jul 10 2010, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 10 2010, 02:01 PM) *
where were you 25 years ago

Same place as I was 18 years ago. Still in the loins and DNA of my parents. Why ask you?


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jstcrsn
post Jul 10 2010, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 10 2010, 02:02 PM) *
Same place as I was 18 years ago. Still in the loins and DNA of my parents. Why ask you?

I know,was kiddin ,everyone has to do it the hard way, for themselves
if the wisest man could learn from the fools mistakes - the world would be better
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Azzaboi
post Jul 10 2010, 11:12 PM
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People die every day, its not fair is it?

The essential belief is that God created the universe and all that is within it. . So, from a believer's perspective, we do not legitimately call any acts of God "immoral." Redefine your thinking of death. If God created us and gave the gift of life, He can by all means take it away just like that. The body is simply a shell for the soul.

If we are created in the image of God, we can assume emotions are the same. Yes, God gets mad with the wicked. Just as a parent get mad when you do something wrong.


Why did God send the flood? God sent the flood because of the fallen angels that left heaven and came to earth to have children with the daughters of Adam and Eve. The offspring of this union were the Nephilim or giants (Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude v6). This was an attempt by Satan to pollute the blood line of Adam and Eve which is the same blood line that Jesus Christ came from (Luke 3:23-38).

Was Noah's flood was world wide? God did not have to flood the whole earth because the people that He wanted to destroy were confined to a small area. It never actually says if it was or wasn't, all it says is it washed away the wicked. Start off fresh as man became corrupted, a last option to start clean. A rainbow to say it would never happen again. If it wasn't for the flood we would live in darker times than this and Jesus's blood line would of been corrupted. The Bible is about Adam and Eve and their descendants, the last one being Jesus Christ and the people that they came in contact with.


Mose murdered someone? Yes, it says he did. The bigger picture is, he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand. He then feared he had done wrong and fled from the face of Pharaoh. God didn't stop this, but God heard their groaning and the children of Israel being enslaved. The Pharaoh punished the innocents. Did Mose do wrong, yes, the Egyptian also did wrong, yes, the Pharaoh then did wrong, it got out of control by the hands of man.

So what about the Plague that God sent, killing the the firstborn in Egypt? It is first of all confined to first-born males. Average number of children per family would have been in the 5-7 range. There was no reason at all for Pharaoh to allow this to happen, he didnt let it go over years and years. He was CLEARLY warned—after nine previously confirmed announcements/experiences of plagues! No one likes judgment, especially God, this one occurred in a context of warning, ease of avoidance, clarity of purpose, extraordinary evidence, and exceptional delay (80 years+). God used a difficult judgment to stop a much, much larger program of atrocity. Getting the point across to deaf ears. The Pharaoh wouldn't stop even after 80 years, comon!

It say God is a vengeful God.

Just like a parent, oh noes you get bullied at school, He could set in and stop it, then you would be labeled a mommy boy and continue to be picked on and bullied anyways (making it worst), but rather than that you should learn how to deal with it yourself so God allows it to happen. But then you fight back, soon all the school is screaming fight, fight, fight, it's gone too far, but you feel you can't back out now. So what happens, your parent finally steps in and punishes you both. Your both just as bad for fighting and allowing it to continue will just get worst. He doesn't care who started it.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 10 2010, 11:28 PM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 10 2010, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 10 2010, 11:12 PM) *
People die every day, its not fair is it?

The essential belief is that God created the universe and all that is within it. . So, from a believer's perspective, we do not legitimately call any acts of God "immoral." Redefine your thinking of death. If God created us and gave the gift of life, He can by all means take it away just like that. The body is simply a shell for the soul.

If we are created in the image of God, we can assume emotions are the same. Yes, God gets mad with the wicked. Just as a parent get mad when you do something wrong.


Why did God send the flood? God sent the flood because of the fallen angels that left heaven and came to earth to have children with the daughters of Adam and Eve. The offspring of this union were the Nephilim or giants (Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude v6). This was an attempt by Satan to pollute the blood line of Adam and Eve which is the same blood line that Jesus Christ came from (Luke 3:23-38).

Was Noah's flood was world wide? God did not have to flood the whole earth because the people that He wanted to destroy were confined to a small area. It never actually says if it was or wasn't, all it says is it washed away the wicked. Start off fresh as man became corrupted, a last option to start clean. A rainbow to say it would never happen again. If it wasn't for the flood we would live in darker times than this and Jesus's blood line would of been corrupted. The Bible is about Adam and Eve and their descendants, the last one being Jesus Christ and the people that they came in contact with.


Mose murdered someone? Yes, it says he did. The bigger picture is, he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand. He then feared he had done wrong and fled from the face of Pharaoh. God didn't stop this, but God heard their groaning and the children of Israel being enslaved. Did Mose do wrong, yes, the Egyptian also did wrong, yes, the Pharaoh then did wrong, it got out of control by the hands of man.

It say God is a vengeful God.

So what about the Plague that God sent, killing the the firstborn in Egypt? It is first of all confined to first-born males. Average number of children per family would have been in the 5-7 range. There was no reason at all for Pharaoh to allow this to happen. He was CLEARLY warned—after nine previously confirmed announcements/experiences of plagues! No one likes judgment, especially God, this one occurred in a context of warning, ease of avoidance, clarity of purpose, extraordinary evidence, and exceptional delay (80 years+). God used a difficult judgment to stop a much, much larger program of atrocity. Getting the point across to deaf ears. The Pharaoh wouldn't stop even after 80 years, comon!


Just like a parent, oh noes you get bullied at school, He could set in and stop it, then you would be labeled a mommy boy and continue to be picked on and bullied anyways (making it worst), but rather than that you should learn how to deal with it yourself so God allows it to happen. But then you fight back, soon all the school is screaming fight, fight, fight, it's gone too far, but you feel you can't back out now. So what happens, your parent finally steps in and punishes you both. Your both just as bad for fighting and allowing it to continue will just get worst. He doesn't care who started it.

Let me get you straight here... You're almost implying AIDS is God's way of punishing Hitler?


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Azzaboi
post Jul 10 2010, 11:59 PM
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Now you talking about God should being punishing Hitler, even though I said he lets men sort themselves out first... maybe Hitler did have a purpose...

Hitler took over germany during the great depression. He unified the country, provided jobs and opportunities for thousands of people, and gave the country hope. He was was responsible for some of the greatest advances in technology and science the world has ever seen.

He was also a great leader. Hitler wanted only the best for Germany, but he made some mistakes. Hitler was convinced of his own rectitude and corrupted by power and race. Although his deeds reached an extreme of awfulness, he committed them in the deluded belief that they were right.

Hitler did wrong and was evil murdering people and racist and that's what he'll be remember and shamed by for punishment of externality. Can any number of cultural, scientific and personal achievements ever be enough to justify the killing of even one innocent? NO!

Even today God doesn't stop people from being racist even though its wrong and affects innocents. Saying that he sure doesn't approve of it either. In one way or another you still get punished for your sins.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 11 2010, 12:00 AM


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The Uncreator
post Jul 11 2010, 04:09 AM
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If were going to try and justify Gods murderous intentions, then why should first born children (presumably innocent) suffer and die because of another mans ignorance? Sure, some may be older (Not that this changes anything), but I'm sure there were just as many infants and children among them as well. Nothing said can justify that, Not that I believed it evened happened. But no child - No matter what they are born into - Deserves to die because of someone elses faults.

Yes I know it happens every day today, but in this scenario it was an intentional act - Which is the same as murder, By any standards.
Its just another thing in the bible that makes no sense to me, I kind of feel God is too full of himself - And excuse the somewhat oxymoronic statement that follows this - But God needs to stop putting himself on an altar.

He has evened killed just to prove a point to the devil - I mean come on, If he is God - Why should he care how the devil perceives him or his followers?

I do not mean this as an attack - But the God I have studied and been taught about (Historical and religious versions), comes off as egotistical, murderous, Unkind, and controlling.
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Azzaboi
post Jul 11 2010, 05:10 AM
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I just don't believe Gods has murderous intentions.

Take a kid playing with a toy gun waving it around shooting at his friend. A parent would warn him it dangerous, be careful and leave them. If the kid out of angry shoots the other kid and hurts him. A parent would punish him and try ensure it wouldn't happen again - kids being kids it would probably happen anyways. God see the small things but lets people work it out themselves. He doesn't control people or force them to obey. If he was full of himself then he might of.

Now what if a guy got a real gun and he's mad running around waving the gun saying he will shoot someone. Try to talk him out of it. Give him penty of warning. What if he doesn't listen and starts killing people. The L.A.P.D come along and tell a sniper to take him out. Was that sniper wrong to take him out? Is the sniper the evil one or the L.A.P.D for telling him to? Should the mad gunner just be allowed to go killing others?

Simply the last solution for some that refuse to listen and stop. Preventing something else worst from happening.

War is evil, all those that fight in it are therefore evil. Those that try stop other it and fight for peace are therefore evil. That's basically what your saying!

You are also reading the bible as if it happen in one day, when it's over years. They all go through the stages of being warned, etc. The biggest so called murders are a last resort to prevent a greater evil.

Now take into fact, your body is a shell for your soul. Your soul lives on when your body is dead and gone. Those which die actually live on anyways just at a different level.

Even the 911 attack was warned well back in 1995... (but i don't want to bring up bad feelings)

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 11 2010, 05:21 AM


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Marek Rojewski
post Jul 11 2010, 09:17 AM
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If death wouldn't be a penalty, god wouldn't use it as a penalty. He "did" so it isn't just "okay now come to me, leave the shell". What are You saying has no sense. God the omnipotent has to kill someone to prevent them from causing greater evil, even though killing isn't a penalty, and as a omnipotent being he just could do everything, for example brainwash them, so they could work with flowers for the rest of their lives. Oh I forgot he gave us free will, but if we are going to use it freely, he eventually can come and kill us, to prevent the blablablabla...

If You want to believe in some epic cartoons, maybe You wanna pay me some money, and I will write a holy book that at leasts make sense...


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Azzaboi
post Jul 11 2010, 10:10 AM
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Death itself isn't the penalty... it's judgement which is the penalty.

Heaven or Hell. At death we may or maynot be judged. It doesn't say, but it does talk about there will be a judgement day, where we will alll be judged fairly. It's basically the same as you saying I'm your friend welcome to my home or I'm not your friend, goodbye.

Why do you follow or obey your own parents or make friends? You might as well rebel, same type of thinking and believe as what you are saying?

Why give someone freewill then attempt to brainwash them to follow you? Where's your logics? And yet he never forced you... only asks for friendship, just like a friend would.

You create fairly tales out of the blanks and thats what you go by... people have this idea of what heaven and hell is, God is sitting up in a cloud with lightning ready to zap us like ants to a Hell of fire. That's the epic cartoons you see, doesn't mean its fact and doesn't mean thats the way I see it.

You say blablablabla... what do you believe in instead? Prove anything better? (we'll be here all day with this topic, lol...)

Prove why the...

The Earth size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors.

The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior. As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. That code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself. The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us. How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable? Science can not answer this.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us.



This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 11 2010, 10:32 AM


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Marek Rojewski
post Jul 11 2010, 10:26 AM
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If I am judged for my deeds, than I am not free, because I am under someones jurisdiction. And if death isn't the penalty, but the judgment, than what was the point in killing them? To stop something that is 100% not important, because it is just a blink in eternity?

My logic is - if god gives human free will, than he do not intervene, no matter what people are doing. If he do, than may he put the talk about free will in... Of course judgment itself is an intervention.

I believe in wisdom, intellect and progress. Maybe one day we will colonize other planets, find other life forms and reach technology-ascendancy. Religion is to be used to give basic rules to masses that cannot rise above such simple things.

It's sad how most of homo-sapiens cannot see basic things. The same goes for politics. We live in a time of great tax abuse, You pay taxes all the time, few times for the same things. In fact in some European socialistic countries taxation reaches 80-85% of ones income. In ancient Rome, slaves could leave 10% of their income to themselves, so "taxation" was - 90%. Yet people nowadays tell things like "we are free people, we have free market, we decide because there is democracy". These sentences have no sense at all, the only reason they can live with their stupidity, and "get away with it", is that those few % that are left give them roof above their heads and some proper meals (and that is everything most of those people need anyway).


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Azzaboi
post Jul 11 2010, 10:52 AM
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Then your not free... as everything you do will be judge wheither your a believer or non-believer doesn't matter. If your not judged on your deeds or actions, there is no point for that action - to do good or even try. You wouldn't get rewarded when you do good, or get a good feeling inside... Playing your guitar would be pointless as no one would judge how well you play or improve. You would never win. If you do wrong, you would have no idea as there will be no reaction. If you couldn't lose then winning wouldn't be sweet. Your life would be dull and pointless.

Religion never limited you to not exploring or making progress... Maybe one day we will colonize other planets (teraform and fake it), I really don't see the point why? Except wasting tax payer money even more, but it would be an achievement none the less.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 11 2010, 10:59 AM


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Alexiaden93
post Jul 11 2010, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 11 2010, 10:10 AM) *
Prove why the...

The Earth size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors.

The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior. As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. That code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.


Just because you cannot FATHOM something's existence because it is beyond your knowledge, does NOT imply God created it. Just because you ignore the fact that JUST LIKE THE BIBLE, the Earth's evolution has taken a long time, with warnings. Humans didn't land on the planet. We started off as small microbes, and species thereof survived. This process took hundreds of millions of years, yet you speak of DNA as if it were programmed by God. Do you not understand that humans are some of the most perfect creatures existing, namely because we have survived these myriads of years of natural selection and adaptation?

I am sorry, but when somebody says that "we are just too perfect to be a coincidence" and that Earth is just too perfectly placed to be coincidence, I really despair. It's like ignoring all the probability, or should I say UNCERTAINTY of every single action we take. Look at you, Azzaboi, 16 years old, yet your current existence is as unlikely as the perfect conditions on Earth. One deviance along the line would have turned you into a drug addict or a mass murder, yet you are not. Whether you believe Life is a result of a combination of all your choices, and all events that occurred, or whether you believe it was predestined by God himself, is up to you. But saying God created all of this is, in my opinion, an exaggerated romantic and poetic way of describing the world, and a cowardly means of ignoring the science of adaptation, selection, genetic mutation and the survival of the fittest.

Let us not forget that Religion was created as a result of ignorance, to explain what we didn't understand. I've written this before.

2000 years ago, the Romans couldn't understand what caused the Earthquakes, and so they said Vulcanus was angry, and sacrificed goats. Now, 2000 years later, we know for a fact that it is the movement of tectonic plates and the expulsion of immense pressure and temperature from the Earth's core.

Just because you can't understand what created DNA (or that it was natural selection and genetic mutation), are you going to say that a certain Deus is responsible? In what way does your ideology differ from the ignorant Romans? Just because most faiths nowadays are monotheist, does this infer that you are right in saying God created this "perfect" place? And if DNA is so perfect, why are there still genetic mutations, cancer that come out of nowhere? Because we ARE NOT perfect, and thus NOT created in the image of God.

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 11 2010, 01:06 PM


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jstcrsn
post Jul 11 2010, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 11 2010, 04:09 AM) *
If were going to try and justify Gods murderous intentions, then why should first born children (presumably innocent) suffer and die because of another mans ignorance? Sure, some may be older (Not that this changes anything), but I'm sure there were just as many infants and children among them as well. Nothing said can justify that, Not that I believed it evened happened. But no child - No matter what they are born into - Deserves to die because of someone elses faults.

Yes I know it happens every day today, but in this scenario it was an intentional act - Which is the same as murder, By any standards.
Its just another thing in the bible that makes no sense to me, I kind of feel God is too full of himself - And excuse the somewhat oxymoronic statement that follows this - But God needs to stop putting himself on an altar.

He has evened killed just to prove a point to the devil - I mean come on, If he is God - Why should he care how the devil perceives him or his followers?

I do not mean this as an attack - But the God I have studied and been taught about (Historical and religious versions), comes off as egotistical, murderous, Unkind, and controlling.

if there is no God -why is murder wrong
it would just be a product of the universe -nothing wrong but nothing right
no difference between mother Teresa and Hitler- they both are just doing what the cosmos created them to do
if fact , they would both be beautiful in the same way that they are completing themselves in a cosmos -
that as carl sagen put it - the cosmos is all there ever was- is ,or will be- and we look to the stars because we are made of the same carbon
star stuff, that is why we stare at the cosmos longing to return

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The Uncreator
post Jul 11 2010, 02:14 PM
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God does not have to exist for there to be right and wrong - You as a human, Know that murder is wrong. True, there is no cosmic law that binds you not to kill under some penalty, Nor will the cosmos judge you - But the existence or non-existence of God has no bearing on whether murder is wrong. Morals can exist outside of religion, Whether or not historically morals such as these come from the creation or implementation of religion is irrelevant ultimately.

But then again, as Carl Sagan did put it - "the cosmos is all there ever was - is ,or will be - and we look to the stars because we are made of the same carbon material". Maybe we know killing is wrong because it is a hindrance to us as a species? And killing our own kind is wrong? The cosmos' and nature could have imbued us with a sense of self-preservation (Which it most certainly did) so we derive these such morals from these "genetic instincts", as it were.

And, on a side note, just in case anyone wants to throw this curve ball at me (Atheists, Agnostics, and Christians have asked me this)- If we were to believe that right and wrong come from those who gave us religion, But we do not believe in the existence of a God - Then it would seem that people themselves derived these morals, With no Divine Intervention. Thus God did not imbue these morals in us.

Just speculation and some ideas. My point is - God's existence is irrelevant when it comes to right and wrong, Especially in today's society.
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Alexiaden93
post Jul 11 2010, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 11 2010, 02:14 PM) *
God does not have to exist for there to be right and wrong - You as a human, Know that murder is wrong. True, there is no cosmic law that binds you not to kill under some penalty, Nor will the cosmos judge you - But the existence or non-existence of God has no bearing on whether murder is wrong. Morals can exist outside of religion, Whether or not historically morals such as these come from the creation or implementation of religion is irrelevant ultimately.

But then again, as Carl Sagan did put it - "the cosmos is all there ever was - is ,or will be - and we look to the stars because we are made of the same carbon material". Maybe we know killing is wrong because it is a hindrance to us as a species? And killing our own kind is wrong? The cosmos' and nature could have imbued us with a sense of self-preservation (Which it most certainly did) so we derive these such morals from these "genetic instincts", as it were.

And, on a side note, just in case anyone wants to throw this curve ball at me (Atheists, Agnostics, and Christians have asked me this)- If we were to believe that right and wrong come from those who gave us religion, But we do not believe in the existence of a God - Then it would seem that people themselves derived these morals, With no Divine Intervention. Thus God did not imbue these morals in us.

Just speculation and some ideas. My point is - God's existence is irrelevant when it comes to right and wrong, Especially in today's society.

I agree, as I haven't killed anyone... yet :S


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Azzaboi
post Jul 11 2010, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE
Just because you cannot FATHOM something's existence because it is beyond your knowledge, does NOT imply God created it. Just because you ignore the fact that JUST LIKE THE BIBLE, the Earth's evolution has taken a long time, with warnings. Humans didn't land on the planet. We started off as small microbes, and species thereof survived. This process took hundreds of millions of years, yet you speak of DNA as if it were programmed by God. Do you not understand that humans are some of the most perfect creatures existing, namely because we have survived these myriads of years of natural selection and adaptation?


Okay say we started off as small microbes and evolved from monkeys (some humans are said to act like monkeys but thats all that fact proves), why some microbes have XY and others have XX chromosome, male and female? Why can't we interspecies with animals (without playing god and messing it up ownselves)?

QUOTE
Let us not forget that Religion was created as a result of ignorance, to explain what we didn't understand.


Believe me I have looked at both side fairly before making any selection and my personality I analyze and question everything I don't understand. Even as I play my guitar I will come up with a thousand questions about it. I also ignore facts and myths which don't make sense, until I work it out all the small pieces to something which makes sense to me.

God is hovering over us ready to strike us down with lightning - Well that's based off Myth and it's not even the god I believe in, it's Zeus. This is something people make up in books and fairy tales and mix into religion. You are right to be questioning the following of something like that. That's however is not what I believe God to be.

QUOTE
2000 years ago, the Romans couldn't understand what caused the Earthquakes, and so they said Vulcanus was angry, and sacrificed goats. Now, 2000 years later, we know for a fact that it is the movement of tectonic plates and the expulsion of immense pressure and temperature from the Earth's core.


The water is necessary for the survival of the animals and plants. Most of the water runs off the land and back into the ocean. This water also carries the significant amounts of land materials into the ocean. After billions of years, all the land ends up in the ocean and earth becomes a waterworld. The problem is that the earth has not become a waterworld. Why is that? (I love the movie Waterworld by the way)

The missing factor that prevents the earth from becoming a waterworld are the two processes that actually build land masses. These geologic processes are tectonic activity (which cause earthquakes) and volcanism. Both of these processes are intertwined, since volcanism results from the great continental plates colliding with each other. So, without plate tectonics and the accompanying earthquakes, there would be no land masses on planet earth, since all the land would eventually end up in the ocean.

This process is described in the Bible, which claims in several passages that God created the earth completely covered by water before the land was formed (pretty good "guess" by a bunch of unscientific people!). The Bible describes how God caused the mountains to rise and form the dry land. So, without tectonic activity and earthquakes, the earth would have begun as a waterworld and would still be a waterworld at this point.

It also has been found out from science, the land was one big chuck to start out with. Broken down into different lands. The Bible has even explained that. Most people tend to be so racist and hate the other countries (or not understand), yet religion suggests we are all from the same blood line, therefore one of the same, all created equal. The colour of skin doesn't matter. Is that so bad to believe?

God's purpose for the creation of the earth was to provide a place for human beings to live. Without land, human beings would never be possible. Religion explains why humans are more intellient over animals, etc.

The "natural evil" described by atheists actually represents the design of an intelligent Creator. Without earthquakes and volcanoes, there would be no land masses on planet earth, and human life would be impossible. Atheists have missed some pretty fundamental principles from earth sciences in condemning God for allowing earthquakes. God's creation of "natural evil" is actually necessary design.


Atheists often claim that the presence of evil is an argument against the existence of God. The Christian God is supposed to be both loving and all-powerful. Despite these characteristics, God seems to be unable or unwilling to prevent the vast amount of evil and suffering in the world. The atheist concludes that either God is not loving or not all-powerful or that God does not exist, because if He did exist, He could stop all the suffering.

In fact, the Bible indicates that God is love. The Bible also indicates that God is perfect.

However, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good." The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect, but was designed to be temporary and will be replaced with a perfect universe that will be permanent. Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.

Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? (why aren't we all just in heaven?)

God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. (remember God is love)

The Bible says that God allows temporary, bounded evil in order to allow free will beings to have the ability to love and to make choices.

The atheist also makes the assumption that all pain, suffering, and death are bad or evil. In fact, physical pain is absolutely vital to our survival. If we felt no pain, we would do things to ourselves that could be very destructive. For example, if we didn't feel pain when we touched a hot object, we would not react until we saw our flesh smoking. This is obviously not a good thing to do. Pain tells us we need to react to a situation before serious damage occurs.

Many things that people consider to be bad are, in fact, useful in our spiritual growth. The Bible says that trials in our lives produce perseverance, which helps make us mature and complete.

All people will suffer at least somewhat because of bad choices that others make. In addition, because of the temporary nature of the universe, some bad things will happen to us due to "bad luck" or chance. However, these things will teach us to be more sensitive to the needs of others, and will prepare us to show love to others when they suffer through similar things. God want us to learn from this life.

Yes, God could have eliminated all evil in the design of His universe. However, such a universe would have been unable to accomplish the main purpose for which God created the universe in the first place - to allow free will choice by human beings. This would of also restrict the minds of human beings turning them into robots. In order to make it into Heaven (which is perfect), all it says is we must leave our sins/evil behind (Jesus is a symbol of this).

Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride. Since none of these character traits are allowed into heaven, those who insist upon holding onto these traits cannot enter into heaven, but must be separated from God in a place called hell. Therefore, those who go to hell do so voluntarily, preferring hell to complete submission to a holy and just God.

It never actually goes into detail about Hell, people just guess its fire and there been told of a lake of fire (not everyone is casted into that lake). It says those who are sent to hell are restrained through punishment so that they won't be able to torture others.

Some skeptics have pointed out that an omniscient God should never change His mind, since He always should know what was going to happen. In reality, God never changes His mind, but warns rebellious people to give them the opportunity to change their minds before He judges them.

A lot of that believe is then clouded over by people's fairy tales and myths. I enjoy the movies as much as anyone else, but I don't take them into fact.

However, I believe in that there's a God, and you believe chance and well it just did from nothing? Earth is a rock and spinning out of control and could splat into the sun at any time or we are mutants that one human will change and not another. Or maybe Apes could take over and control the world - The planet of the apes (I love that movie too)? Tell me what you believe? I've never actually heard any other side to question and get an answer from yet and am quite interested. Either it been nothing or evolution and no one has gone beyond a point in evolution yet and explained it at all. I'm all ears!

ps. I could write a book myself, "How to better yourself learning from a complete lie" (if it turned out to be a lie), it's helped me a lot in my understanding of the world, action-reactions and people, if anything.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 11 2010, 08:57 PM


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tonyparnham
post Jul 11 2010, 08:51 PM
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If there is a God and you are judged by him on your deeds then religion is'nt essential at all is it.
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Azzaboi
post Jul 11 2010, 09:18 PM
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Sigh... again rather than saying your own believe, you simply attempt to poke holes in others...

What is good without evil? What is sin (something everyone on earth ends up doing) without forgiveness? Religion is all about explaining this, yet you say it's not essential to know? Religion explains why and how things are, yet you say it's not necessary to learn any knowledge of that?

Rather than making a friend and building a relationship, you suggest waiting to your at the house door, knock and wonder why he thinks your a stranger?


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