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Religion
Do you believe in a God or Gods?
Theist [ 47 ] ** [36.43%]
Agnostic [ 25 ] ** [19.38%]
Atheist [ 44 ] ** [34.11%]
Other [ 13 ] ** [10.08%]
Total Votes: 129
  
The Uncreator
post Jul 12 2010, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 11 2010, 05:37 PM) *
It was a bad example 'The Uncreator'... and 'Alexiaden' it was more a question than putting words in your mouth. I wasn't blaming you either for blaming others, I just said it doesn't get people anywhere, even on earth. It's like trying to blame your parents for your birth because you don't like where it ended up due to your own free actions.


No I didn't see it as such, My previous post was just kind of an informative one, Not meant to really present any more arguments.
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jstcrsn
post Jul 12 2010, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 12 2010, 01:35 AM) *
God's existence doesn't affect appearances on Earth. It affects your interpretation of what you see on Earth. If there isn't a God... I don't know. Logic doesn't deal alot with speculation, so I'm afraid my belief can't answer that question.

isn't it speculation either way
there is no
there is a
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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 02:53 AM
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To help clear things, please explain to me from a non-believer point of view...

The beginning of the actual creation, if a big bang then what cause it?

Why DNA contains your entire structure and makeup from birth, and you inherit genes?

Why there is male and female humans and animals in life?

Why you can not inter-species with other creatures?


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The Uncreator
post Jul 12 2010, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 11 2010, 06:53 PM) *
To help clear things, please explain to me from a non-believer point of view...

The beginning of the actual creation, if a big bang then what cause it?

Why DNA contains your entire structure and makeup from birth, and you inherit genes?

Why there is male and female humans and animals in life?

Why you can not inter-species with other creatures?


Depends on what you want to believe. Part of string theory (or M-Theory) is that our universe is a "string-like" or "membrane" substance that vibrates inside what we call "The bulk" - and when these vibrations collide with other "membranes", you get a big bang, an explosion that could set forth the creation of another universe inside "the bulk". To go any further into this would take a lot more, this is the very, very, basic.

Because genetic material is passed from mother to child while in the womb, and is combined with the father at conception.

So we can reproduce, we are not an asexual species and therefore require male and female counterparts.

Simply, The genetic material is not compatible, The genetic codes do not match up with one another.
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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 04:31 AM
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Fair enough answer so far 'The Uncreator', I still don't understand string theory that well (i believe there could be 10 or 11 dimensions), I will look into that, but...

Taking your completed answers:
QUOTE
Because genetic material is passed from mother to child while in the womb, and is combined with the father at conception.

and
QUOTE
So we can reproduce, we are not an asexual species and therefore require male and female counterparts.

and
QUOTE
Simply, The genetic material is not compatible, The genetic codes do not match up with one another.


Then answer what was created first the chicken or the egg? Male or Female? Your saying genetic material was already there and pasted down right, where did it start from? You also mentioned it's not compatible with anything else and cannot be mixed? Therefore it alway was?

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jafomatic
post Jul 12 2010, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 11 2010, 10:31 PM) *
Then answer what was created first the chicken or the egg? Male or Female? Your saying genetic material was already there and pasted down right, where did it start from? You also mentioned it's not compatible with anything else and cannot be mixed? Therefore it alway was?


The concept that you're driving around here is called "genetic mutation" and I think it's fairly well documented.

1. Chicken or egg: doesn't matter, there was always genetic mutation
2. Male or Female: I'm curious the relevance for this question
3. Where did it start from: single cell organisms, I thought? Some form of protozoa?
4. Cannot be mixed: not entirely true. Our own human DNA is quite different from individual to individual and we mix it all the time. Further, some other species share extremely similar DNA and have been cross bred. Dogs, trees, amphibians, fruit flies, and so on.
5. Therefore it always was: I'm not that well educated but it seems that "always was" doesn't necessarily follow the other assumptions you've made.

For the thread's initial topic: I happen to believe in god, but I do not believe in the lies and crimes that humankind perpetrates in god's name. Man invented religion all on his own and in today's world those religions have no actual connection to god at all.

If you want to find out why mankind invented religion, take a look at it from the perspective of a primitive leader that needs to rule his kingdom and prepare for potential wars with neighboring states.



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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 07:07 AM
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The concept of the chicken and the egg is a metaphor view. You however throw it off saying it doesn't matter just because you don't understand it? I'm also not assuming when i said 'Therefore it alway was?', it was a question, one of which you avoid the answer.

There's actually three possible answers I know so far to this question...

1. Either time doesn't exist as we see it and it's been around forever. (Which I believe, but the chicken didn't exist all that time) In Buddhism there is the belief of the wheel of time which regards time as cyclical and with repeating ages. (they believe the chicken always was). So both already are, the chicken and the egg.

2. There was always genetic mutation. Which throws the rest of the logic away from the other questions. Male or Female is one relevant example of this. Also why are there races of different species. (I actually believe in genetic mutation to a point as well, there are varies different types of the same creature, however it is also flawed in the full picture) In evolution, this is the only belief. So the egg comes first.

3. God's creation of birds along with the rest of the universe. A literal historic account of Genesis would place the chicken before the egg. This is the christians belief.(this is what I believe). So the chicken comes first.

4. Ok, well add the fourth. It doesn't matter, this is the ignorer? (I don't follow this for a heart beat). So none come first.


Now prove one of those to be right? Now prove the others to be wrong? You are simply assuming it! Even with all the facts there is no solid proof.

Christians rely on previous teachings, some scientific background and history supports it, but it also relies on some Faith. Read my previous posts I've tried to explain. It explains the world from the start, life, why there's good and evil, etc. I even went into explain why earthquakes and volcanos existed. The bible teachs and makes sense of them (to me at least) and that was written before anyone actually knew about them...

The evolutionary theory really hasn't explained evolution at all. Have they discovered any mechanism or process of genetics which can evolve anything really new. No, they have not. Fossil evidence doesn't support the changes with bone genetic mutation, which show an actual historical process of evolution of new kinds of organisms. Furthermore, there is no evidence which proves that the alleged evolution of all life really occurred. It also relies on some faith. It could however still be a small piece of the puzzle.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 12 2010, 07:17 AM


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tonyparnham
post Jul 12 2010, 08:46 AM
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To Azzaboi,
You are only a young person, I spent over 50yrs as a devout catholic going to church and praying all that time even to the virgin Mary etc, etc and never once in all those years did I ever get any response or any REVELATION from god, absolutely nothing. I have never found any evidence of God and I am at a total loss to actually define he or she or whatever so I've given all those years and have been completely IGNORED, how do you worship something that contiues to remain obscure.
So if YOU believe in God and believe he cares about everybody and would like me to believe, know and understand him I ask you this;

You obviously believe he listens to your prayers and answers them and your belief in him must be based on his REVELATION to you so that you must have some kind of personal understanding of god because god has REVEALED himself to you, please get on your knees Abbazoi and pray to god to REVEAL himself to me after like he's REVEALED himself to you because I think its hypocritical of you to post all the preaching you have done contained in these threads with some kind of SPECIAL EVIDENCE, and then criticise me and others for not believing without the same SPECIAL EVIDENCE you've been given. The second that this SPECIAL EVIDENCE arrives, I'll be a believer again.
Tony

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Alexiaden93
post Jul 12 2010, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 12 2010, 07:07 AM) *
The concept of the chicken and the egg is a metaphor view. You however throw it off saying it doesn't matter just because you don't understand it? I'm also not assuming when i said 'Therefore it alway was?', it was a question, one of which you avoid the answer.

There's actually three possible answers I know so far to this question...

1. Either time doesn't exist as we see it and it's been around forever. (Which I believe, but the chicken didn't exist all that time) In Buddhism there is the belief of the wheel of time which regards time as cyclical and with repeating ages. (they believe the chicken always was). So both already are, the chicken and the egg.

2. There was always genetic mutation. Which throws the rest of the logic away from the other questions. Male or Female is one relevant example of this. Also why are there races of different species. (I actually believe in genetic mutation to a point as well, there are varies different types of the same creature, however it is also flawed in the full picture) In evolution, this is the only belief. So the egg comes first.

3. God's creation of birds along with the rest of the universe. A literal historic account of Genesis would place the chicken before the egg. This is the christians belief.(this is what I believe). So the chicken comes first.

4. Ok, well add the fourth. It doesn't matter, this is the ignorer? (I don't follow this for a heart beat). So none come first.


Now prove one of those to be right? Now prove the others to be wrong? You are simply assuming it! Even with all the facts there is no solid proof.

Christians rely on previous teachings, some scientific background and history supports it, but it also relies on some Faith. Read my previous posts I've tried to explain. It explains the world from the start, life, why there's good and evil, etc. I even went into explain why earthquakes and volcanos existed. The bible teachs and makes sense of them (to me at least) and that was written before anyone actually knew about them...

The evolutionary theory really hasn't explained evolution at all. Have they discovered any mechanism or process of genetics which can evolve anything really new. No, they have not. Fossil evidence doesn't support the changes with bone genetic mutation, which show an actual historical process of evolution of new kinds of organisms. Furthermore, there is no evidence which proves that the alleged evolution of all life really occurred. It also relies on some faith. It could however still be a small piece of the puzzle.

You know what I find amusing? You are so vividly trying to prove the veracity of the doctrines of your own religion that you forget its nature - a BELIEF. No matter what you say or do, it will never be more than that. No matter what whims you get concerning the chicken or the egg. Now perhaps a clarification on your question concerning genders.

Any animal that does not reproduce asexually is one that per nature has offspring that requires more attention than say a snail. What you consider to be love (an emotion given to us by God?) is actually the biochemical process triggered by dopamine and pheromones. Why? How are human beings going to take care of a child for 18 years (18 years is the official age, but this is only because it is in accordance with the biological learning curve of our offspring) when they don't feel any sort of attachment? The reason why there are two different sexes, is because in order to have a functional "family" where the offspring is nurtured for such a long time, one of the partners must be specialised in caring: while the mother is pregnant, dad works to assure a proper welcoming of the child, resource-wise. When the mother takes care of the child, the father goes out and hunts (money, yo). This can be seen in most mammals.

NOW, what do you say, intelligent design, God's will? Or perhaps a silky chair is the cause of this? Or maybe a pristine stone surrounded by two branches? Whatever you answer, know that this is your BELIEF.

I believe in Science and logic, you believe in Religion and logic. Some would consider the latter an oxymoronic combination. wink.gif

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 12 2010, 09:08 AM


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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 10:55 AM
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Why am I the hypocrite and why do people assume I'm like preaching?

I said you can believe what you want, I am even interested to hear your side.
I mearly said my believe and side, people questioned it so I answered those questions as best to my knowledge.
I was even completely open to what 'The Uncreator' said as well as others.
When I questioned it, however it's suddenly completely different than you questioning me and half the time I don't even get an answer.
I actual believe in Religion as well as science and logic, all three I have taken into fact. Science and religion can coexist.
I've even said I believe part from all three possible answers including part of string theory and evolution, etc.
I've tried not to take a bias side, if you noticed jafomatic says he also believes in god, I respect that but I didn't buddy up with him because of it, I questioned it too. Yet you gang up on me, only amusing me more.
I've even pointed out no matter what way you look at it - believer or non-believer, you will still have to have some faith or assume things.

You ask me why I have faith there's a God, I've explained. Why do you have faith in assuming evolution is correct or anything else for that matter?

For example: Dr Sanford was an evolutionist, created the gene gun for plants but changed his mind about the evolutionary theory saying it's wrong after many scientist experiments:
QUOTE
Mutations are word-processing errors in the cell’s instruction manual. Mutations systematically destroy genetic information—even as word processing errors destroy written information. While there are some rare beneficial mutations (even as there are rare beneficial misspellings),1 bad mutations outnumber them—perhaps by a million to one. So even allowing for beneficial mutations, the net effect of mutation is overwhelmingly deleterious. The more the mutations, the less the information. This is fundamental to the mutation process.’

That's only one small example out of many, therefore I question it, the same as if you question religion. I have also questioned a lot in religion too, but it weights more facts over fiction to me. I even when on to say religion has been clouded with fairy tales and myth believes, people assume too much into it.

Why don't you re-read what I have said all this time.
Maybe my typing and english grammer isn't that clear, sorry if I messed up there.

Tony: It says God answers prays, yes, no, or not now. Even when He did reveal into in a form man could understand, not all believed it. If Jesus Christ came and stood before you right now and performed a miracle, would you believe? You would still probably not believe it anyways. It's some kind of trick or something? God does show himself, but he does it in different ways with different people. God has revealed enough of His nature for us to be able to trust Him. It was not God's idea to remove Himself and be seemingly unapproachable. It was mankind's choice. God gave humankind freedom of choice. He allows us to choose whether we will believe in Him, accept the knowledge He reveals and obey Him—or not. God didn't force to follow His instructions. They freely chose not to. Humanity has felt the repercussions of that fateful decision ever since. Anyways that what it says in the bible, it requires some faith to believe that bit or not.

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Alexiaden93
post Jul 12 2010, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 12 2010, 10:55 AM) *
Why am I the hypocrite and why do people assume I'm like preaching?

I said you can believe what you want, I am even interested to hear your side.
I mearly said my believe and side, people questioned it so I answered those questions as best to my knowledge.
I was even completely open to what 'The Uncreator' said as well as others.
When I questioned it, however it's suddenly completely different than you questioning me and half the time I don't even get an answer.
I actual believe in Religion as well as science and logic, all three I have taken into fact. Science and religion can coexist.
I've even said I believe part from all three possible answers including part of string theory and evolution, etc.
I've tried not to take a bias side, if you noticed jafomatic says he also believes in god, I didn't buddy up with him because of it, I questioned it too. Yet you gang up on me, only amusing me more.
I've even pointed out no matter what way you look at it - believer or non-believer, you will still have some faith or assume things.

You ask me why I have faith there's a God. Why do you have faith in assuming evolution is correct or anything else for that matter?

For example: Dr Sanford was an evolutionist, created the gene gun for plants but changed his mind about the evolutionary theory saying it's wrong after many scientist experiments:

That's only one small example out of many, therefore I question it, the same as if you question religion. I have also questioned a lot in religion too, but it weights more facts over fiction to me.

Why don't you re-read what I have said all this time.
Maybe my typing and english grammer isn't that clear, sorry if I messed up there.

Tony: It says God answers prays, yes, no, or not now. Even when He did reveal into in a form man could understand, not all believed it. If Jesus Christ came and stood before you right now and performed a miracle, would you believe? You would still probably not believe it anyways. It's some kind of trick or something? God does show himself, but he does it in different ways with different people. God has revealed enough of His nature for us to be able to trust Him. It was not God's idea to remove Himself and be seemingly unapproachable. It was mankind's choice. God gave humankind freedom of choice. He allows us to choose whether we will believe in Him, accept the knowledge He reveals and obey Him—or not. God didn't force to follow His instructions. They freely chose not to. Humanity has felt the repercussions of that fateful decision ever since. Anyone that what it says, it requires some faith to believe or not.

Mankind didn't believe in God 10000 years ago, and look at the repercussions! Agricultural revolution, or should I say BIRTH, as well as the birth of written language. How dreadful, this wrath of God.


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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 11:17 AM
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You assume with science? Science has already proved the Earth is only a few thousand years old, not 10000 years ago. There is a decay of the Earth's magnetic field. An exponential fit (assuming a half-life of 1400 years on 130 years' worth of measurements) yields an impossibly high magnetic field even 8000 years ago, therefore the Earth must be young.

You assume with religion? The bible says Adam and Eve talked with God and therefore knew Him.


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tonyparnham
post Jul 12 2010, 01:05 PM
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Hi Azzaboi,
Are you actually saying you believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
Tony
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Alexiaden93
post Jul 12 2010, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 12 2010, 11:17 AM) *
You assume with science? Science has already proved the Earth is only a few thousand years old, not 10000 years ago. There is a decay of the Earth's magnetic field. An exponential fit (assuming a half-life of 1400 years on 130 years' worth of measurements) yields an impossibly high magnetic field even 8000 years ago, therefore the Earth must be young.

Oh well, carbon dating has proved quite the opposite, I have no idea what journals you've been reading, but they don't seem very scientific :S


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The Uncreator
post Jul 12 2010, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 12 2010, 03:17 AM) *
You assume with science? Science has already proved the Earth is only a few thousand years old, not 10000 years ago. There is a decay of the Earth's magnetic field. An exponential fit (assuming a half-life of 1400 years on 130 years' worth of measurements) yields an impossibly high magnetic field even 8000 years ago, therefore the Earth must be young.

You assume with religion? The bible says Adam and Eve talked with God and therefore knew Him.


But once again, its a blind faith thing of sorts - Its because god said it, We still have no proof.

The Earth is 4.54 Billion years old.

That's 4,540,000,000 years old, Science has proven this. Earth's magnetic field is produced within its molten iron core, which does not die out very quickly. In fact, there are field reversals every few million years, last one as about 700,000 years ago. These such magnetic fields started up about 3,500 million years ago.

The oldest rocks which have been found so far date to about 3.8 - 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are as old as 4.1 - 4.2 billion years.


I have heard the magnetic pole issue before, but there are a few issues I will take from books, science articles, etc.

1. While there is no complete model to the geodynamo (certain key properties of the core are unknown), there are reasonable starts and there are no good reasons for rejecting such an entity out of hand. If it is possible for energy to be added to the field, then the extrapolation is useless.

2. There is overwhelming evidence that the magnetic field has reversed itself, rendering any unidirectional extrapolation on total energy useless. Even some young-Earthers admit to that these days -- e.g., Humphreys (1988).

3. Much of the energy in the field is almost certainly not even visible external to the core. This means that the extrapolation rests on the assumption that fluctuations in the observable portion of the field accurately represent fluctuations in its total energy.

4. Barnes' extrapolation completely ignores the nondipole component of the field. Even if we grant that it is permissible to ignore portions of the field that are internal to the core, Barnes' extrapolation also ignores portions of the field which are visible and instead rests on extrapolation of a theoretical entity.

That last part is more important than it may sound. The Earth's magnetic field is often split in two components when measured. The "dipole" component is the part which approximates a theoretically perfect field around a single magnet, and the "nondipole" components are the ("messy") remainder. A study in the 1960s showed that the decrease in the dipole component since the turn of the century had been nearly completely compensated by an increase in the strength of the nondipole components of the field. (In other words, the measurements show that the field has been diverging from the shape that would be expected of a theoretical ideal magnet, more than the amount of energy has actually been changing.) Barnes' extrapolation therefore does not really rest on the change in energy of the field.
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post Jul 12 2010, 01:26 PM
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Alexiaden93
post Jul 12 2010, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Jul 12 2010, 01:26 PM) *
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Hahahaha Dr Phil xD Great one Zen ^^


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The Uncreator
post Jul 12 2010, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (zen @ Jul 12 2010, 05:26 AM) *
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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE
But once again, its a blind faith thing of sorts - Its because god said it, We still have no proof.

That's not the word of god I was even refering too, it's the word of sciencist as well. They say it's proven by science as well recently. Sciencist therefore state it can't be older than 8000 and yet also state it's billions of years old (make up your mind). The real proof is we wheren't around back then and have no idea of how it, it's all just guess work. Even the dinosaurs are guess work pieceing together bits and filling in the blanks with assuming things.

How about answering why how brains can last 3 million years. The human body structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. Yet the body can't survive more than 90+ years. Evolution suggests this isn't possible as it would all develop to it's surrounding requirement and nothing more or less.


That Dr Phil is funny and yes I agree with that logic.
The very amusing thing, Dr. Phil matter-of-factly stated that he is a Christian...

It's actually explaining how christians can get sucked up in praying and (even non-believers) wanting everything handed to them, it's the same as asking a parent for everything, when they should be working for it and learning. Even God said 'He only helps those which will help themselves'.

Simple Example:

A little child asks for an icecream before dinner. A good parent see it's bad timing and says 'Not Yet' to the request.

A poor begger asks to win the lottery. God says 'No', why is it because he's cruel or is it because the begger has not yet grasped how to use that money? The amount of people that get money simply handed to them, like winning the lottery, actually spend it all away and end up in a bigger debt! Don't believe it? There's lots of examples.

In 1985 AND 1986, Evelyn Adams won the lottery - equaling a total winning of $5.4 million. However, today - she has no money "Winning the lottery isn't always what it's cracked up to be," says Evelyn Adams, who won the New Jersey lottery not just once, but twice (1985, 1986), to the tune of $5.4 million. Today the money is all gone and Adams lives in a trailer. She lost money in slot machines, and couldn't seem to say no to relatives and friends. Evelyn's big win ended in a big loss.

In 1988, William Post won $16.2 million in the Pennsylvania lottery but now lives on his Social Security. Post's former girlfriend sued him for a share of his winnings and one of his brothers was arrested for hiring a hit man to kill him, hoping to inherit a share of the winnings. His relationship with his other siblings was also strained and he spent some time in jail. Within a year, he was $1 million in debt and eventually declared bankruptcy. He now lives on only $450 a month and food stamps.

In 1989, Willie Hurt of Lansing, Mich., won $3.1 million. Only two years later he was broke and charged with murder after spending his fortune on a divorce and crack cocaine.

Even if you don't believe in pray, getting gifts handed to you can look like a great thing but if you don't know how to use it or abuse it, it will turn into crap.

A lot of the most taliented people however, started with nothing and created amazing stuff - practicing and learning as they go.

Yet people still wonder why God doesn't give them all their prays. It even goes and tells you to practice and learn new things...

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 12 2010, 08:47 PM


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Azzaboi
post Jul 12 2010, 08:40 PM
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People still have no idea why a faith is just like a believe in sciences, both are blind to a point? Yet people pick one over another and fill in the small details themselves.

Why I pick religion which has some blind faith over the blind leading the blind:

First of all my faith contains science and logic as well. I try still keep an open mind and take in the facts from any side.

Take this basic example (it's only an example for a basic idea) as a bigger one would take ages to explain...

Imagine a computer game like 'The Sims', all the graphics is created from little pixels (say those are atoms). The little character is created from binary zeros and ones (say thats DNA). The language of DNA is digital, but not binary. Where binary encoding has 0 and 1 to work with (2 - hence the 'bi'nary), DNA has 4 positions, T, C, G and A and a lot more of it in a single cell (like a programming function). But its a basic idea.

The character is given A.I. to make it more interesting (call that freewill). Due to that A.I. the character screws around sometimes, but also has fun and enjoyment.

We have created a simple 3D world for this example because own our 10/11D world is a bit more complex.


There's two ways of looking how it came:

1. Believe in the creator (a programmer for example) who wrote it all, every detail. Fair chance of good with controlled bad.
2. Believe in chance (a virus for example) who mutanted it all, every detail. Random chance of good with uncontrolled bad.

The creator goes about writing new content that's never been seen. (God)
The virus goes about writing random garbage and overwriting/destroying things to create new content that's never been seen. (Evolution)

I pick creation over destruction. Just like any computer game, bad is added into the good to be able to win or lose. Without it, it's a pretty boring game to play with no point.

Even picking the virus, you have no idea where it came from and it would of had to be created anyways. Even evolutionist has proven this to be destructive. Also there is no point in playing the game as the rules will change on you at any time.

I'm not saying this is fact or anything or it's just a big game, just a small example of how you can look at it from a simpler view.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 12 2010, 11:50 PM


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