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> Okay, My Two Cents Goes Here..., ...Song lessons for SONGS.
Actual SONG lessons!
Should GMC instructors do lessons as playing to real songs?
Heck yes!! [ 10 ] ** [29.41%]
Nah, I like the original stuff myself. [ 9 ] ** [26.47%]
A good mix is in order. [ 14 ] ** [41.18%]
Eh, we'll see... [ 1 ] ** [2.94%]
Total Votes: 34
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drummingguitaris...
post Apr 16 2008, 11:17 PM
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Okay...

So once upon a long time ago, I suggested to Kris and the gang at GMC that we should do actual lessons that pertain to songs in and of themselves, such as Stairway to Heaven, Free Bird, Hotel California, and the like...and thought the instructors would give a chance to allow everyone to pick up these songs to play to their friends, etc. This is before my idea was shot down because of a copyright issue...and this is something I want to address today.


I'm a legal affairs/criminal justice double major with a philosophy in law minor here in the States, going into my junior year in college. If I had a few facts (and MOST IMPORTANTLY knew where this website was based [my guess is Sweden]), as well as the current law as according to wherever this website is based, I could necessitate the appropriate arrangements so we could have these lessons and still be "legal", with no harassment from the RIAA, etc.


Not to mention I could talk to a few copyright lawyers here, and see what we can do as far as establishing privilege, royalties, etc...if Kris or anyone gets back to me on this, I'd be glad to work at this idea so that we can have these lessons to benefit all of GMC, and possibly add a little fun in the mix.

Thanks all!! biggrin.gif


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QUOTE
thedarkblues06 wrote:

jpast wrote:

He wishes he was in the minority. Nothing like making out with guys to stick it to the man. (Pun intended)
(Off-hand comment made about Pete Wentz wishing he was gay.)
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SamJ
post Apr 16 2008, 11:24 PM
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Sounds good to me. biggrin.gif
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drummingguitaris...
post Apr 16 2008, 11:34 PM
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And don't just vote, let me hear your ideas, if we get serious enough and I get to researchin'...Kris might give the go-ahead, and I'm sure there are a few songs everyone wants to play. smile.gif


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Saul Hudson (Slash)
Eric Patrick Clapton
Kirk Lee Hammett

QUOTE
thedarkblues06 wrote:

jpast wrote:

He wishes he was in the minority. Nothing like making out with guys to stick it to the man. (Pun intended)
(Off-hand comment made about Pete Wentz wishing he was gay.)
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The Uncreator
post Apr 16 2008, 11:42 PM
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Personally It would be a cool thing to add, But i find there original stuff more interesting most of the time smile.gif
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coffeeman
post Apr 16 2008, 11:44 PM
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I really preffer the original lessons that we have , a song will be always available and you can learn it by ear or with tabs. But the lessons we have here teach you a lot of more things that you won't learn in a song.

But thats just my point of you.


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Chris Evans
post Apr 16 2008, 11:45 PM
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I prefer the original material, I can figure out the songs that I want to learn myself, or theres enough resources elswhere to figure certain parts out, having said that I wouldnt see it as a bad thing if it was allowed in the future smile.gif


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drummingguitaris...
post Apr 16 2008, 11:46 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Apr 16 2008, 05:42 PM) *
Personally It would be a cool thing to add, But i find there original stuff more interesting most of the time smile.gif


I agree as being more interesting, but I think it would be a pretty innovative option...

My views on this is like having a loaded pistol in your house (bad example just go with it tongue.gif): It's better to have it and not use it all the time, then REALLY want it, and not have it. tongue.gif...yes that was a bad example. But I believe, even if these lessons aren't that common I think it would really diversify the flavor of GMC and give more of an incentive to practice...but that's just me.

And they could be featured as the 101 style lessons, a complete tutorial, I know that would help a lot of people out...and if you can't YET do a technique that's in the song...go to the appropriate lesson and practice the technique...it would allow the user to have GMC for ALL its needs, and not just most...I dunno, it kind of sounds like a dumb argument, once again, I think the variety would make it worth it.

Let me also make clear that this is just an ADDITION, not a complete OVERHAUL of the already fantastic lesson setup we have here at GMC, it would just be an every-once-in-awhile thing...

This post has been edited by drummingguitarist06: Apr 16 2008, 11:54 PM


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-->Chris D.<--

My Gear:
Fender DG-xxx Acoustic/Electric
Crate GX-15 series
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My top 5 influences:
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Saul Hudson (Slash)
Eric Patrick Clapton
Kirk Lee Hammett

QUOTE
thedarkblues06 wrote:

jpast wrote:

He wishes he was in the minority. Nothing like making out with guys to stick it to the man. (Pun intended)
(Off-hand comment made about Pete Wentz wishing he was gay.)
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DeepRoots
post Apr 17 2008, 12:03 AM
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Personally, (now this is just my opinion), learning instructor's own original material is what gives us awesome tools. They put us in the mind set and explain how and why they do what they do to get the result they want.

Now, although i can explain a few songs- what scale is used etc..and i may even be able to connect with it on an emotional level (where i could say- here just makes me feel like we're floating bla bla bla)- is it really my place to tell? How can i say: "Think ABC while using XYZ"? and how do i know that is exactly what the original writer was thinking? If i heard it in an interview...then can't i just share a link to the interview not just process this information and spit it back out 99% correct.

I feel that GMC lets me analyse songs by giving me the tools through original material that i know for sure..this is why this happens...this is what the instructor thinks/feels. I know because i'm hearing it directly from the creator. Once i get my own sense of this i can then learn the tabs/learn by ear my favourite song then apply what i know to understand why it works like it does. How the theory works and what i personally think is going on in the song and why.

Learning someone elses material through somebody that didn't even create it not only feels kind of wrong ethically to me (as the instructor is basically taking credit for the ability to analyse what somebody else has written)...plus it seems like i should be learning my own rendition of a song...for example.

cd player plays the song--->i listen to a song-->learn the song (as accurate as i can by ear)---->analyse what i have in front of me for patterns and logic or emotional value.

it seems a little less productive for it to go like this:

cd player plays the song--->instructor listens to the song---->instructor learns the song (as accurate as they can by ear)--->analyse what they have in front of them for patterns and logic or emotional value---->i listen to the instructor play the song-->learn the song (as accurate as i can by ear, may use tab<<now this is me trying to get as close a sound to somebody who is just imitating a sound>>)--->use information instructor provides about what they believe the song is about- then i have to reprocess that information into something that makes sense to me.

Notice that we have to relearn what the instructor is giving us, its not direct from the source. For me, there are too many places where things just seem like they are getting more and more inaccurate each time they are reprocessed (imagine how inaccurate the information is when somebody then learns it from me??)

For me its so much more simple is we learn the tools we need, apply the tools direct to the source and come out with an end result that is as accurate as we could make it...there are no inaccuracies between us and the speakers except for air.

Or...

Just cheat and ask the famous guy for a 101 lesson about the song and let him explain it fully so there are no inaccuracies whatsoever. This is a similar situation as when we see our favourite guitarists in interviews explaining these songs on youtube.

My slightly long, slightly complicated, 2 cents smile.gif

anyhow..how kick ass is some of this original stuff anyway?!? i'm glad that i'm paying for stuff that people can't pick up in the store, seems more exclusive tongue.gif
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drummingguitaris...
post Apr 17 2008, 12:22 AM
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Okay, I see what you are saying DeepRoots...and I feel your opinion.

Maybe perhaps I'm approaching it from more of a technical basis, and saying that the musical interpretation is merely up to the person who plays it...and the creator merely writes his thoughts for others to communicate with, I guess what you are saying is we should have our own language, and I perfectly agree there.


If this isn't a good idea, I'll retract my idea, because I do agree with most of you. I just thought it was a pretty nifty idea sad.gif


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-->Chris D.<--

My Gear:
Fender DG-xxx Acoustic/Electric
Crate GX-15 series
Ibanez GRG170DX Electric w/ FR Trem
My heart, imagination, hopes, and dreams.

My top 5 influences:
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Carlos Augusto Alves Santana
Saul Hudson (Slash)
Eric Patrick Clapton
Kirk Lee Hammett

QUOTE
thedarkblues06 wrote:

jpast wrote:

He wishes he was in the minority. Nothing like making out with guys to stick it to the man. (Pun intended)
(Off-hand comment made about Pete Wentz wishing he was gay.)
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fkalich
post Apr 17 2008, 12:25 AM
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myself, I won't not be looking for this kind of thing. in my opinion, the format we have supports the most efficient way to get from point A to point B, i.e. from Zero to Hero.

I look on it this way. In general a good idea is of small scope. What is really special is not of huge size. A song takes this and expands it out, often in arbitrary ways. But the great idea is usually small.

The one minute lessons capture this, and leave it up to you to expand it out, or combine things. For example, I often play two of Gabriel's and one of Marcus's lessons all mixed together. Just an example.

If you and learn a song, really a lot of what you are doing is memorizing things that are arbitrary, which however follow a theme. I prefer to focus on the essence of the thing, as we see in the minute lessons. More efficient way to move ahead.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Apr 17 2008, 12:27 AM
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 17 2008, 08:40 AM
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^^ Very good point fkalich! smile.gif

Drummingguitarist - thanks alot for your offer.

The problem lies only in the tabs - we already have lisence covering the video material. There is no international "sheet music publicer" association - meaning there isn't a single lisence to buy.

So in order to publish copyrighted tabs for an international audience (as opposed to what mxtabs.com currently is doing) - one needs to contact all the different publishers there are (for instance Warner who has the Blind Guardian rights).

If you add to this that the publishers have never seen the kind of site GMC is - and they have no set of rules on how sell lisences to international web-based companies who present their meterial the way GMC does.

The way it looks now - we will in best case be able to offer song lessons sold separately (ie not covered by the GMC subscription fee). Which personally turns me off quite heavily.

This is something we have been trying to achieve for almost a year now - if you think you have a way around this feel free to contact the GMC administration. We would of course be very grateful! smile.gif


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superize
post Apr 17 2008, 08:52 AM
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I know another swedish site Plejmusik where you can buy covered songs that they play but with no tab


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drummingguitaris...
post Apr 17 2008, 04:08 PM
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Thanks for that Kris.

I'll look into major artist labels...(such as Warner, various labels, etc)...and see what I can come up with. I perfectly see what you are saying though...but I'm sure if they see what kind of site GMC is, we could establish a kind of "precedent" if you will, and allow there to be not really a license to buy...but to establish royalties for, etc.

But yes, that situation is very difficult. If I come up with something, I will let you know. biggrin.gif


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-->Chris D.<--

My Gear:
Fender DG-xxx Acoustic/Electric
Crate GX-15 series
Ibanez GRG170DX Electric w/ FR Trem
My heart, imagination, hopes, and dreams.

My top 5 influences:
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Carlos Augusto Alves Santana
Saul Hudson (Slash)
Eric Patrick Clapton
Kirk Lee Hammett

QUOTE
thedarkblues06 wrote:

jpast wrote:

He wishes he was in the minority. Nothing like making out with guys to stick it to the man. (Pun intended)
(Off-hand comment made about Pete Wentz wishing he was gay.)
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 17 2008, 07:54 PM
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Sounds great - and the companby (Rock My Web) is based in Sweden! smile.gif


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Smurkas
post Apr 27 2008, 01:23 AM
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There is actually another guitar site that already do "real" song lessons and post tabs for the songs. The site is jamplay.com (if linking another guitar site is against the rules, please remove the link). They're also a member of an organisation called ASCAP. Now I don't know if it's from ASCAP that they're getting their permissions but since they seem to be based in the USA they would probably be hit pretty hard if they were doing this without permission.

Also, drummingguitarist06, I think your idea is a great one and I don't thinke there are any really valid arguments against teaching "real" songs except the legal ones. As far as I can gather, all of you who are saying no are at a level playing wise where you generally don't have too much trouble learning songs by your own, either by ear or by tab.

However, if you're anything like me, you didn't start out that way. I remember myself trying to learn in the beginning, I couldn't even learn by tabs because I sucked so much and of course I wanted to learn my favourite songs from my favourite bands. If there had been a guitar site back then teaching me how to play my favourite songs I would have been all over it and I think it would be a major draw for beginners wanting to learn how to play. I think most of us pick up a guitar for the first time because we have listened to a band or a guitarist and went WOW I just got to be able to play like that. Finding a site that teaches you that music would be extremely valuable.

To fkalich - I think learning songs is one of the more important skills if you want to become a really good guitarist. Memorization of larger coherent chunks of musical material is a skill in itself that needs to be practiced if you want to get good at it. Before I started playing in a band I generally learned riffs here and there, just picking out what I thought were the coolest parts of the songs. Now, after playing in the band and learning many new songs (we're a cover band so we're always adding new songs) I find that I memorize songs much faster than when I started out and that is a very valuable skill for any guitarist and you won't get it without practising it.

The second part of that is of course song writing. Maybe there are a couple of geniuses out there who can write awesome material without listening to any other peoples music, but once again, I am not one of them. By learning other peoples music, their preferred progressions etc. I get inspiration and material for my own song writing. I for one would welcome analysis of songs/groups from teachers. After all, that's basically what they are doing in the "In the style of..." lessons except they come up with their own part instead that sounds as much as the original band as possible.

Deeproots - Do you find the "In the style of..." lessons unethical? If I'm understanding you correctly they're basically doing everything in those lessons that you call unethical (i.e. analysing something that someone else has written and taking credit for it). I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you but that's how I'm reading your argument.
Also you seem to miss the point that someone elses analysis of musical material might be alot more accurate than what you yourself might be able to produce and can therefore be valuable. I still ask my guitar teacher from time to time for an analysis of certain song parts or whatever simply because he is a better guitar player/musician and will often be more accurate in his musical judgements than I am.

I understand if you can do all these things by yourself but I think you need to think about those people who have not reached a level where they can do these kind of things themselves yet. So the question shouldn't just be "Is this valuable for me?" but "Could this be valuable to me or other people wanting to learn how to play guitar?" and in this case I think the answer is a resounding YES.


/Marcus
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Marshmall0wz
post Apr 27 2008, 01:29 AM
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i think the current material being taught IS real music! i agree it may be something to look into though smile.gif


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post Apr 27 2008, 01:43 AM
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I can learn songs myself by listening to them and playing along but it would be great especially if instructors could give their takes on famous songs. So like Muris doing a death metal song say, may not sound like a death metal song but more of a Jazzy Heavy Metal track.


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stratman33
post Apr 27 2008, 02:24 AM
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this is a great idea, i would love to have a mixture of songs and original stuff!i really like learniing other songs, and also the original stuff on here smile.gif


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