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Emir Hot
post Apr 3 2009, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 3 2009, 02:30 PM) *
So if I would pay you all the expenses it takes to produce an album (including your wage) but you'd have to release your album for free you'd deny that offer?

- Jonas


No, I would do it in that case but that type of deal you can only get from Sony, BMG, EMI and similar companies. I would be more than happy to accept something like that but of course my wage should be something that I can live with.

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Apr 3 2009, 02:46 PM) *
Two things worth remembering:
1. copying i.e. downloading something is different than stealing a CD from the store, because virtually You gained something ( the files on Your computer ), but no one lost his files/cd's so the difference can be clearly seen.

2. so when someone downloads the music, the artist/industry loses only the profit, that MAYBE it would earn otherwise. This surely is true, but I for one know, that without the internet I wouldn't buy many many cd's that I have bought because of the possibility to listen to them before buying. For example Your cd Emir. It is very hard/almost impossible to buy Your cd in Poland. No shop in my town has the CD, same goes to the people I know. I have certain amount of cash to spend, and I am 100% sure, that I wouldn't order it without hearing it first. What is more, I really don't like 1 minute song samples. I won't know after hearing it, if I heard the best fragment, the average one or the worst. Some songs are great because of few seconds in it... One full song, some kind of a single maybe would be more helpful, although the song would have to be very good, to convince me to buy a full album. Especially as there are to many bands that have 1-2 good songs on an album, and the rest is there to "fill the space"..
Besides I treat music as something that I will "use" for a long period of time, like a car or clothing. I don't like the idea of buying a CD like a box of cookies, and thinking "hmm if they are tasty than great, if not maybe someone else from my family will eat it".
So in my case, the internet made me to buy more cd's than I would buy without it. And I am sure there are many people that act the same way.


To me 1 min of each song + reviews + 1 full free video from a single would be really enough to see if the music is worth buying.

About my album, you can find it everywhere on internet if you have paypal or a credit/debit card.

If you want it in Poland, my distributor for Pland is "Metal Mundus".

You can buy my album from their website. This is the direct link
http://www.sklep.metalmundus.pl/pokaz_prod...php?idprod=1704

Cena: 42.99 PLN

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29a
post Apr 3 2009, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Apr 3 2009, 03:38 PM) *
Jonas your very first answer made me laugh man.
I don't think that we can discuss nor debate this further.
You clearly don't think that its not much of a crime to copy music but it is to steal from the store.
In my mind this is completely wrong so I will just stop talking to you about this issue here as we have totally separate opinion of what crime and law is and should be regarding this whole matter.
We probably just have different definitions of crime. There is criminal law and civil law. Civil law is about disputes between individuals. As as I know copyright is mostly a matter of civil law - at least in Switzerland. There is another interesting bit there. Private copies are basically legal - at least here in Switzerland. I'm allowed to give a copy of a song to a friend. We even pay for that right when we buy mp3 players, empty cds, cd burners and so on.

So if you still belive that copying a file is the same as stealing a cd then I guess we really can't discuss this issue much further - unless you explain me how copying something takes away something from you.

Jonas


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Schumi Jr
post Apr 3 2009, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Apr 3 2009, 09:05 AM) *
I would like to have time to reply to all this but right now I am busy with the comments for my collab. I have to admit that I had pretty much similar oppinion as yours before I entered the music industry. Now when I see how things are not worth doing and are not that easy as they look (or used to be 15 and more years ago) I am really not interested in making music available for free just like that. Yes I am trying to make a living of music but it is still very hard. I haven't given up but I will try different ways. Maybe just a session work or teaching. I am not a sales man. My sales are sorted just the way it should be but people are just talking about some great music and nobody is buying it. The only way I could explain this is if you experience it yourself. Spend 2 years making music. Be lucky enough to get signed by a proper label and do 5 jobs at the same time to pay for the studio, musicians and all other expenses. I am really talking about some serious money. After that you obviously want to have something back from it. I didn't do this because I didn't have anything else to do in my life. I wanted this to be my job for which I am officialy qualified and which I enjoy doing but it showed that it is not worth.


Emir, first, I have tons of respect for you. You have put blood sweat and tears into continuing your dream of being a full-time musician whereas many like myself gave up early on and took on other careers.

That said, this latest reply bothers me a bit. I can completely empathize where you coming from. However, I think (just my opinion based on quick reads of your replies) that you may be a bit too focused on the illegal-download-makes-it-not-worth-making-albums issue.

Some points to keep in mind:
1) It IS a different world now. Some new disadvantages (easier copying), some new advantages (internet promotion, much cheaper recording equipment).
2) Not only are other musicians finding ways to take advantage of the new world, but as a photographer, I can tell you that the photography industry is wrestling with even worse new issues, and yet many photographers are figuring out how to take advantage. With photography, not only can you take one pro photo and then go illegally make copies and even enlargements, but every now has access to digital SLR's and pro-like editing tools and think they can now do portraits and weddings themselves. Think if somehow all of a sudden mortals like me thought we could play guitar nearly as well as you (good enough most people wouldn't notice the difference) without us even having to try. But many photographers have still found ways to thrive in this new world.
3) Again I'll relate this to my experience in photography, but you're attempting to take something people truly enjoy doing (playing guitar) and making a living off of it. I can't think of many situations where turning something that is normally thought of as a hobby into a profession an easy or straightforward task. It takes a lot of hard work, but it also takes some business, directional, or other types of creativity... and in many cases, some comprimises...
4) You said you made $0 during last show and mentioned metal isn't what it used to be. I'm sure you've already thought of this, but might it be worth comprimising a bit and guiding your style to one that is more sought-after in today's market? Playing a different style for awhile is still more true to yourself than getting a "normal" job and the increased exposure may help get you to a place where you can be successful playing your own style in the future.
5) If you're not a good salesman, find a friend who is. Promotion/marketing/creative-business-plans are all massively important to succeed in anything interesting these days. Find a friend or fan who's willing to discuss some ideas with you or even run some of it themselves - don't rely on a label and don't rely purely on your musicianship.
6) You mentioned trying different directions, and I think that's really important. Maybe record and distribute on your own. Maybe team up with other musicians/bands. Maybe network even more with successful musicians you know. Maybe even move to a different area/country/region. Etc etc etc. I'm sure you have 1001 other ideas in your head - run with them. You didn't give up playing guitar when it took you a while to master a certain technique, don't give up now without either trying different directions or coming to the decision you'd ultimately be happier choosing another career path.
7) Finally: Move past the notion that copying-kills-music. Of course your label is going to mention it, and of course it is true to some extent, but what can you do about it? Probably not much directly. Recognize the situation but then concentrate on what you can do about it, take it as a personal challenge, and execute.

I expect that you've thought of most of what I wrote above many times already - but I took the chance of wasting your time by writing to give you someone else's perspective, maybe give you an idea or two you haven't thought of or have forgotten, but most importantly to provide the encouragement to keep moving forward!

Take care,
Mike
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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 3 2009, 03:14 PM
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Emir, thanks for the link, I already bought Your CD via Paypal, but couldn't find anyone selling it in Poland. Now maybe some of my friends will buy the record, as they didn't like the idea of ordering internationally ( don't know why, but here in Poland most people has the same attitude:/ ).


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Emir Hot
post Apr 3 2009, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (Schumi Jr @ Apr 3 2009, 03:07 PM) *
Emir, first, I have tons of respect for you. You have put blood sweat and tears into continuing your dream of being a full-time musician whereas many like myself gave up early on and took on other careers.

ETC...


Thanks for your support and nice suggestions Mike. According to my contract with Lion Music, their job is to distribute albums and I don't think I am allowed to do it myself apart on a live show for which they can supply an agreed amount of CDs with a special price. Trust me they are doing a great job. One of the rare labels that is really honest and cares about their artists. Their dirstribution is very well organised and they have ways to enter some great places with their products e.g. I have seen their releases in HMV, Virgin Megastore etc... Every 6 months I receive the list of what has been sold, downloaded, publishing rights, sublicencing, radio plays etc... This number is never accurate even with the biggest record labels but that is not their fault. Many radios just don't report what they play etc... I have spoken to many other artists signed to Lion Music and they are all more than happy to be part of their team. If I try to promote and sell the music myself, I am sure I wouldn't make 10% of what they can do.

Of course I haven't given up playing music and yes I am thinking of doing something totaly different. I have some good contacts and non-stop working on more solutions so time will tell smile.gif

Thanks for your nice words again.

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Apr 3 2009, 03:14 PM) *
Emir, thanks for the link, I already bought Your CD via Paypal, but couldn't find anyone selling it in Poland. Now maybe some of my friends will buy the record, as they didn't like the idea of ordering internationally ( don't know why, but here in Poland most people has the same attitude:/ ).


Cheers Marek, and thanks for buying the CD.


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29a
post Apr 3 2009, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Apr 3 2009, 03:56 PM) *
No, I would do it in that case but that type of deal you can only get from Sony, BMG, EMI and similar companies. I would be more than happy to accept something like that but of course my wage should be something that I can live with.
I hope that there will be other ways to get similar deals in the future without major labels. For example there are proposals for a so called "Kultur flatrate". The idea is to impose some sort of tax (possibly on internet connections) that will be used to pay artists. At least in Switzerland similar taxes on radio/tv are already in place to compensate artists and finance the production of content. It's not perfect either, but it might be more successful than trying to sue everybody.

The important thing is we try to find new ways for paying artists. And I'm actually quite certain that a new business model will emerge.

Jonas


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Emir Hot
post Apr 3 2009, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 3 2009, 03:34 PM) *
And I'm actually quite certain that a new business model will emerge.

Jonas


I hope so smile.gif


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jer
post Apr 4 2009, 02:17 AM
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This post has been edited by jer: Apr 4 2009, 02:17 AM


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audiopaal
post Apr 4 2009, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Apr 4 2009, 03:17 AM) *

Awesome vid biggrin.gif
Thanks for sharing!!
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Koopid
post Apr 4 2009, 10:57 PM
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One thing people seem to be missing is that the music industry is actually selling more music than ever regardless of copying.

Buyers of music has a certain amount of money to spend on music. This amount has not changed much the last 20 years (if you count inflations and so on) but the amount of music and artists has increased by insane numbers. There are a lot more artists that has to share the same amount of money which means less money/artist. This is just math. The costs to make music increases with the number of artist but the total sales remain about the same which means it will become harder to make money as an artist. You just can't expect to make a living as a musician the same way as before.

I do not agree with what has been said about copying versus stealing in a shop. If you download it its a missed sale for the shop, the same amount of money missed as if you went in and stole it. It may make *you* feel better but it is as illegal as stealing it physically from the shop. I download illegal music (very little now since Spotify) but I don't try to rectify it by saying it is ok, because it is not. I also drive too fast and I try to avoid taxes if I can...


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lcsdds
post Apr 4 2009, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (Koopid @ Apr 4 2009, 10:57 PM) *
One thing people seem to be missing is that the music industry is actually selling more music than ever regardless of copying.

Buyers of music has a certain amount of money to spend on music. This amount has not changed much the last 20 years (if you count inflations and so on) but the amount of music and artists has increased by insane numbers. There are a lot more artists that has to share the same amount of money which means less money/artist. This is just math. The costs to make music increases with the number of artist but the total sales remain about the same which means it will become harder to make money as an artist. You just can't expect to make a living as a musician the same way as before.

I do not agree with what has been said about copying versus stealing in a shop. If you download it its a missed sale for the shop, the same amount of money missed as if you went in and stole it. It may make *you* feel better but it is as illegal as stealing it physically from the shop. I download illegal music (very little now since Spotify) but I don't try to rectify it by saying it is ok, because it is not. I also drive too fast and I try to avoid taxes if I can...

You can rationalize it however you want but stealing is stealing. Like Koopid said...if you dowload it illegally thent that is a missed sale...I don't see how people can say this isn't stealing. I think if you were the artist that spent years practicing and a bunch of money making the album and then somebody stole you work I think you would feel differently.
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29a
post Apr 5 2009, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Apr 5 2009, 12:12 AM) *
You can rationalize it however you want but stealing is stealing. Like Koopid said...if you dowload it illegally thent that is a missed sale...I don't see how people can say this isn't stealing. I think if you were the artist that spent years practicing and a bunch of money making the album and then somebody stole you work I think you would feel differently.
Downloading (or uploading) stuff illegally is copyright infringement. Stealing is when I take away property from you. When I steal something from a shop something is missing afterwards because I took it away. Now, what do I take *away from you* by downloading? It's illegal but it's not the same as stealing.

Jonas


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lcsdds
post Apr 5 2009, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 5 2009, 11:55 AM) *
Downloading (or uploading) stuff illegally is copyright infringement. Stealing is when I take away property from you. When I steal something from a shop something is missing afterwards because I took it away. Now, what do I take *away from you* by downloading? It's illegal but it's not the same as stealing.

Jonas

You take away revenue that I would have made if you would have bought it. You are stealing money from the artist that they would have received had you bought it legally.
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29a
post Apr 5 2009, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Apr 5 2009, 12:58 PM) *
You take away revenue that I would have made if you would have bought it. You are stealing money from the artist that they would have received had you bought it legally.
So if I buy a used guitar I'm effectively stealing? Because I take away revenue that the store and manufacturer would have made if I bought a new one?


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lcsdds
post Apr 5 2009, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 5 2009, 12:30 PM) *
So if I buy a used guitar I'm effectively stealing? Because I take away revenue that the store and manufacturer would have made if I bought a new one?

Notice you used the word "buy".....
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29a
post Apr 5 2009, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Apr 5 2009, 01:33 PM) *
Notice you used the word "buy".....
I still removed potential revenue, which by your definition, as far as I understood it, is stealing. Or would it be ok again if I bought illegal copies?


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lcsdds
post Apr 5 2009, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 5 2009, 12:46 PM) *
I still removed potential revenue, which by your definition, as far as I understood it, is stealing. Or would it be ok again if I bought illegal copies?

Jonas....you can rationalize it all you want. You are a smart guy....you know what your doing when downloading stuff illegally. If morally you are OK with this then there is nothing anybody can do to change your mind. smile.gif
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jer
post Apr 5 2009, 02:07 PM
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The band got paid for the used cds in the stores.

For each one that is bought there is one less fan that owns one. So the number of cds in circulation matches the amount the band was paid for.



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29a
post Apr 5 2009, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Apr 5 2009, 03:07 PM) *
For each one that is bought there is one less fan that owns one. So the number of cds in circulation matches the amount the band was paid for.
That's a good argument. But it's still lost potential revenue. Pretty much in the same way an illegal copy would be. Which leads us back to the difference between theft and copyright infringement.

lcsdds, I'm not saying that infringing copyright is morally right or good. I think it's not. In my opinion Copyright together with proper fair use laws IS ok. I'm a software developer so my job basically depends on copyright too (although the software industry is less dependent on it because it is more service oriented). All I'm saying is that the act of copyright infringement is not the same as the act of theft.

I German this is even more crazy. There an illegal copy is called "Raubkopie". Where Raub means robbery (or even rape). And so it's basically theft and violence or intimidation. Sorry but at least in that case it's very clear that some one wanted a scary term rather than an accurate one.

Jonas


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jer
post Apr 5 2009, 09:45 PM
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It's legal lost revenue though.

When a painter, paints a painting and sells it to someone, he has no control over them wanting to sell it to someone else. But the end result is there is one painting out there that he made and got paid for. What happens after that is out of his hands.

But if whomever bought that is xeroxing it and giving people copies for free that's illegal and wrong. It wasnt his to give.

That image is copyrighted and owned by the painter. Only he/she can sell it.







QUOTE (29a @ Apr 5 2009, 02:39 PM) *
That's a good argument. But it's still lost potential revenue. Pretty much in the same way an illegal copy would be. Which leads us back to the difference between theft and copyright infringement.

I'm not saying that infringing copyright is morally right or good. I think it's not. In my opinion Copyright together with proper fair use laws IS ok. I'm a software developer so my job basically depends on copyright too (although the software industry is less dependent on it because it is more service oriented). All I'm saying is that the act of copyright infringement is not the same as the act of theft.

Jonas



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